What is THIS?????
 

No more Pledge of Allegiance?

I mean, I guess I understand the logic behind it, but it makes me so so sad. Our society is turning so bland and overclarified and it makes me sick.

Doesn't this bother anyone else?

yeah I'm sure that we would all be distraught if someone here from another country was offended by the fact we said God in our pledge of allegiance

Its so sad that people will get all worked up over ANYTHING, I mean I guess we should change the Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and get new money - hell lets start a new country

IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT THEN DON'T MOVE HERE

I think saying "under God" is a hell of alot better than religious persecution or tyrannical rule - but then again what do I know...I've never had to deal with those things

Actually, I think this is a great thing.

Right after I graduated, my school district (the one where I attended high school) had a big controversy right after 9/11 because the school district tried to establish a rule where every school in the district had to either recite the Pledge of Allegiance or play the Star-Spangled Banner everyday. A number of parents (and students) were trying to overthrow this ruling because they didn't think it was right for the Pledge to be forced. National media found out about this, made a huge deal over it (since it was just post-9/11), and basically the media attention influenced the district to keep the ruling in place.

Basically, forcing students to say the Pledge of Allegiance does more harm than good. If they don't believe in the things the pledge mentions (most likely the "Under God" part), forcing them to say it will only make them even more angry. It can cause divisions between students, and in a political climate like today's, a student's decision to say or not say the pledge can be used against him or her, s/he can get teased or even threatened because of it. Situations can get ugly. And while I have nothing against the voluntary saying of the Pledge of Allegiance, I don't see why those who feel THAT strongly about it can't just say it on their own time. If you really believe in the ideals the pledge is about, it shouldn't matter WHERE you say it -- school, home, walking on the street -- they will mean just as much to you no matter what.

What about removing the words "under God"? I mean, still controversial but at least we're not destroying something that we should be proud to say.
There are people in this country who are Atheist, Christian, Jewish, etc....whatever, that's their own deal. People don't live in America because of it's religious affiliation- you can be anything here. But people who bitch and don't want to say the Pledge of Allegiance b/c they don't agree with it......it's about being loyal to your country. If you don't agree with it, then WHY ARE YOU HERE????
I don't know maybe its a double standard or something but it pisses me off.

oh I think it was the statue of liberty that started this whole mess...

give me your tired, your weak and your hungry.....

damn french....

oh well it pisses me off too. I know this country is a melting pot but there has to be a line drawn somewhere. When the majority of people immigrated here in the late 1800's, they knew where they coming and there were PROUD to bring their heritage and incorporate it into their lives as AMERICANS. Now everyone coming wants to turn AMERICA into their country, not incorporating anything or anyone's beliefs but their own. They think since we have an open door policy that it means to throw away what WE as Americans have earned, fought, and died for.

It offends me to see this bickering over something like that when we are sending people (ALL PEOPLE - black, white, hispanic etc) off to die for another man's war.

Give me a break

lol that cracked me up :p

On a more serious note, I think it is terrible what is happening here. It is not like the pledge of allegience mentions a SPECIFIC 'God' of a religion. It recognizes that there are many different kinds of religions here...

The always interesting part is the "under god" was not in the original pledge of allegiance

I think removing the words "under God" would remove much of the controversy, but by no means all of it. (And in some Bible-thumping regions of the country, suggesting that they remove "under God" from the Pledge causes more controversy than just suggesting they outlaw the Pledge from schools altogether!) Let's say you just moved here from Japan -- your parents were recruited to work at a job here because they excelled in a field where experts were needed. You come to a country where you speak little of the language, you know nobody, you hate the food -- and you walk into your first class of the day and they expect you to pledge your undying love for this country before you even sit down? Or what about foreign exchange students -- surely we can't expect them to say the Pledge and mean it?

Not everybody in America loves America to death all of the time, and that is (and should be) perfectly within their rights. My biggest problem with the Pledge of Allegiance is that it basically implies that I think that this country is always right and that I stand by every decision our government makes, which is certainly not true. I love America, but I don't love everything about it, I don't love every decision the government makes and I don't always love the things my country does. I think that it's important to question things, and the Pledge's "blind faith" brand of loyalty just doesn't fit my beliefs.

But it alienates those who don't believe in a God.

The words "under God" were added by act of Congress in 1954.

Even when I was in 1st grade, I never said the "under God" part of the Pledge, although I said everything else. To me, that part just wasn't something that I wanted to say, and I still say it that way, all by personal choice. But yes, I still had to stand every day and say it, and I have no problem with that.

...and signed into law by President Eisenhower, if memory serves. All of us very young kids at the time had to learn to say it differently.

Not being a lawyer, I can't help but wonder if there isn't a First Amendment issue in a governmental organization (a school system which is ordered by a court) not allowing someone who wants to say the pledge his/her right to say it. On the other hand, I've long wondered about the words "under God" being mandated by Congress not breaching the doctrine of separation of Church and State.

Although it seems rather simplistic to say, "If they don't want to say it, don't make them, but let the rest recite the pledge." Problem is that those who choose not to say the entire verbage -- or even the two words -- would undoubtedly be ostricized by the rest of the class, parents, etc.

This is a tough one.

I said the Pledge of Allegiance everyday in Catholic school as well as prayed. When I went to private school we didn't say the Pledge which was a surprise to me at 12. I am not sure how I feel about this. All I know is that many American children don't even know the Pledge of Allegiance which is a shame in my opinion.

I saw a story on the local news that a female college basketball player turns her back on the flag when they say the Pledge of Allegiance. That is incredibly rude and disrespectful. If she objects to it, she could just stand and not recite it.

It most certainly does! The Knights of Columbus, a Roman Catholic organization, were instrumental in getting the phrase "under God" added to the Pledge. Are you telling me that a group of Roman Catholics pushed for a reference to a generic god, rather than their own? I think not!

Given that the phrase does refer to a specific god (the Christian God), I think it should be removed. Further, for those who do not believe in any god, any reference to any god should be excluded completely.

I definitely think the option to say the pledge should be there. Otherwise, do like the Jehovah's Witness kids did at my school......just don't stand up! It's not that difficult.

That girl who turned her back on the flag...shame on you.

(Not to pick on Jehovah's Witnesses, but they were the most non-homogenous people at my white-bread school)

IF YOU DO NOT LOVE IT THEN PERHAPS IT WOULD BE IN YOUR BEST INTERESTS TO LEAVE IT POST-HASTE!!!!1













Seriously, it's ridiculous to state, or even imply, that someone should "get the hell out!" if they don't want to regurgitate something like the Pledge of Allegience, of which the addition of the phrase "under God" was a knee-jerk, anti-Commie BS routine.

Is it anti-American to support cold-war politicking rather than thinking through the topic, and coming to an informed decision?

The beauty of the USA lies in exactly the antithesis of the "love it or leave it, cheesedick" mentality - it would be more accurate to say "love it or improve it through protesting, grassroots political efforts, and the laws of the land"

I could really give a shit if someone wants to say the pledge or not - its their right not to say it, but don't take it away from everyone else simply because you don't believe in God, or A God or Allah or any other higher being.

Frankly I don't think it should be a part of a daily school procession but oh well. I mean where I grew up we only said it on Monday mornings - and even then we still had people not say it. I had a friend who was Muslim who didn't recite it but still stood up for the flag. That doesn't bother me and it shouldn't bother anyone else. So fine, don't say it, but why the hell do you want to change that? I'm sure we could find something much more worthwhile to change - ie: impending war with Iraq, Affirmative Action, Pro Life/Pro Choice......the list goes on and on

I totally agree with Mere....you don't want to say "under God," don't. You don't want to say the pledge, don't. But it is a part of our country, which we are part of, and to take it away and make it against the rules to SAY it, is bullshit.

like I said - that means new everything.....new Declaration of Independence Constitution, $. everything....

I don't want the whole Pledge banished, just the phrase "under God." It wasn't in there when it was first written, and it doesn't belong there now.

what do you mean it wasnt there?
anyway, the last thing i want to do is sound religious but this nation was founded on biblical principles like it or not. the founding fathers were faith believers and gave the founding of this country to God. to them it was because of God that this nation exists. the pledge of alligience is a statement that gives respect to the founding fathers. without them america would probably cease to exist. they gave credit and honor to God for the blessing of america. you do not have to be Christian, Jewish, etc. , but why cant you show some respect. yes this is your country, but you didnt make it. how would you like to have put your heart and soul into something and no one cared that you did it? even if you dont believe in God, show some respect to the fore fathers. good Lord, its just two simple words, 'under God'. saying it DOESNT MAKE YOU RELIGIOUS!!!!!!! if you dont like it, dont say the pledge. go sing the 'star spangled banner' or 'america the beautiful' or go put a usa flag sticker on your car. there are plenty of other ways to show your american spirit without giving reference to God.

just my 2 cents

As noted above, the words "under God" were added to the pledge in the mid 1950's.

yes "under God" was added later - perhaps as a KSig RC said, a knee jerk anti-commie thing....but that doesn't change the fact that as smilely21 said, this country was founded by men who believed in God - E plurbis Unim? yes so like I said, we can't pick and choose what we want to change when it comes to stuff like that, you change one thing then you have to change it all

Gosh I would hate to offend anyone - I hate it that people think just because they don't believe it then no one else should. Just as ignorant as it is to have "under God" in a country with non God believing people it is almost more ignorant to try and take it away from people that DO believe

:rolleyes:

In homeroom period in junior high school, our teacher had us recite the Pledge of Allegiance every morning. Each day a student would lead the Pledge - bascially, the teacher just went down the row. There were two students who told the teacher that they did not wish to say the pledge, nor did they wish to lead when it came to their turn. I don't know about the first girl, but the other student was a girl who sat right next to me - she is a Jehovah's Witness. As I recall, the two girls wouldn't recite, but they did stand up. Our teacher had no problem with that at all and simply skipped over them. None of the students made fun of them. It wasn't an issue; saying the Pledge was voluntary.

.....Kelly :)

oh ok. but i still stick with my previous statement.


just a side note ...maybe 'under God' should be taken out cause right now this country sure as heck isnt.

I mean exactly that - it didn't exist. The phrase "under God" wasn't added to the pledge until 1954 when a Roman Catholic organization urged the government to make the change.


When did I ever show disrespect to the forefathers? The only group I can think of that I may have disrespected is the Knights of Columbus, but aren't they in fact disrespecting non-believers and people of different religions by insisting that their God is mentioned in the Pledge? If one deity is mentioned, then all should be mentioned. This doesn't work either because there are people who don't believe in a supreme being. Therefore, in order to accomodate everyone ("one Nation"), the phrase should be removed from the Pledge. To achieve equality and give everyone the opportunity to say the pledge, we must cater to the lowest common denominator, which in this case is the group of non-believers.

Were the citizens being disrespectful pre-1954 before "under God" was added? And if that phrase is comprised of "just two simple words," what is the harm in removing them altogether? If it is so easy for a non-believer to utter them, then it is surely as easy for a believer to NOT utter them. After all, they are "just two simple words."

This is not about respect for the forefathers. It is about separation of church and state. I am sure if this passes, it will open up a whole can of worms, but so what? Is it wrong to think and reassess? Is change that bad?

i said i didnt want to sound religious but whatever i am just going to say it.........personal opinion...dont slam me

i think that separation of church and state started a domino effect of the chaos and destruction that has gone on in this country.


BTW.... when it comes to GC the subject of race and religion need to stay out. there are way too many opinions to discuss, it is impossible for things not to get ugly....both subjects quite frankly piss me off:mad: :mad: :mad:

"Out of many, One"

Dude, I think that disproves your point, rather than the converse . . .

By the way - not all of the founders were the good ol' Christian boys you make them out to be - many, like Franklin et al, were Deists, more in line with the philosophy of the time . . . so don't act like "In God We Trust" gives the government carte blanche to make our country a religious entity, as it's quite obvious this sort of statement on currency doesn't hold any effect on implementation of institutional things like saying the Pledge of Allegiance.

Ever wonder why we're allowed to amend the constitution?

It's because the founders expected change to be necessary in more "enlightened" times . . . I'd like to think we're more enlightened than applying a single religious aspect to somewhere where IT DOESN'T BELONG, ie public school, when it directly violates everything the nation was actually founded on (and no, a religion wasn't one of those things - more likely FREEDOM of religion than application of a single religion).

-RC
PS - why would this get ugly?

But in a system supposedly founded on the notion of equality, you must give everyone an equal opportunity to recite the pledge, seeing how it is a legitimate part of our country. By inserting <deity of your choice>, you are automatically excluding X% of the population. By keeping it generic, everyone has a chance to participate without having their beliefs infringed upon.

* Please note that I am using "you" in the generic sense.

------------------------------

Having gone so far down this road, I hope everyone realizes that it is not my intent to offend anyone.

Also, as previously mentioned in this thread, removing "under God" from the Pledge could start a costly chain reaction. What of the national currency? I can't imagine how much it will cost to replace all of the money in circulation. I also must admit that I am somewhat hypocritical because I gladly accept my paychecks each month without a second thought. I really haven't given the consequences of these actions much thought, so I am not prepared to discuss them.

I'm honestly too tired right now to get into a debate about the Constitution and the law and what not (and it's probably best that I not get started anyway).

However, on a purely personal level, I do not believe in God, and I have a problem with children in PUBLIC schools either being forced to say the pledge or being made to feel like outsiders by not saying it. I know how kids are -- if a child did not stand to recite the pledge when everyone else in the class did, I'm sure there would be ramifications. Children should not be made to feel like outsiders in a public school because they don't say "under God." And MereMere, I have no problem with anyone else believing in God.

Also, just because the "God" referred to may or may not be a Christian God does NOT mean that it is inclusive of all religions. There are plenty of religions that do not include belief in a God, and there are also those who have no religious beliefs. A public school should be a place where they ALL are comfortable.

And herein lies the dilemma:

If you remove the Pledge from schools, nothing bad happens. Nobody is made to feel left out because of it, nobody is ostracized, teased or threatened. And the people who really want to say it, believe in its values and love what it stands for can say it whenever they want -- at home, walking down the street, in church, at the mall, wherever they want. Nobody's "taking the Pledge away" from anybody else, because they can still say it whenever they want. Hell, they can still even say it at school if they want to! There's just no organized time for it where everybody is expected to stand up and say it.

If you force kids who don't believe in the Pledge to say it, people are made to feel left out, teased and possibly threatened.

So the safest solution -- the one most conducive to an uninterrupted learning environment -- is not to have the Pledge. That, I think, is the issue at hand. The schools aren't trying to be unpatriotic, they're trying to make it easier for teachers to do their job without having to worry about hurt feelings, breaking up fights, name-calling, kids calling other kids terrorists, whatever. And considering how many side issues beyond teaching that teachers have to deal with already, it seems fair that we should try to avoid adding more of them to the list.

Under God was inserted into the pledge around the Harry Truman era. So just take it out!? What's the big deal?

its been awhile since I've been in school so I really don't care

what pisses me off is how we can get all worked up in this country about the smallest little detail

take it out, don't take it out, I don't care - frankly I'm a little more concerned about our cowboy of a president leading us into a war

The following quotes have been attributed to the following founding fathers and early U.S. leaders:

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benjamin Franklin

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." - James Madison

"This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it." - John Adams

"The Christian god can easily be pictured as virtually the same god as the many ancient gods of past civilizations. The Christian god is a three headed monster; cruel, vengeful and capricious. If one wishes to know more of this raging, three headed beast-like god, one only needs to look at the caliber of people who say they serve him. They are always of two classes: fools and hypocrites." - Thomas Jefferson

"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. " - Thomas Paine

I agree with you ktsnake. That way, no one can have religious issues with the pledge. If someone has political issues...fine. That something entirely different. I personally enjoy pledging allegance to the country, problematic as it is, that has given me so much freedom. Saying the pledge in public gives a sense of community...it makes me feel proud. I don't think I would die if I couldn't do it, but I like to have the chance, just as others would like the chance not to say it (and as I understand, it is very often not forced).

ok I did not mean to offend anyone - I was actually being sarcastic in reference to whomever wanted to remove this phrase to being with. I do realize that if the situation were reversed and it was my belief that it bashed, then I would probably intiate the same action. My only point through all this was that its sad that in this day and time (oh so cliche) that we are so concerned with this tiny detail

I also in no way meant the founding fathers were christian men - hell Thomas Jefferson had many affairs and many children with different women including his slaves. All I meant by it was that they founded the country on Christian ideals - thats all, nothing more. They also incorporated checks and balances so on and so forth. I'm not about to defend men however that wouldn't even want women to vote if they were alive today.

I don't know when this thread turned into a bashing one but the sad fact is that there is never going to be a 'pledge' or anything else for that matter where someone isn't going to be offended

just take the damn phrase out it or don't say it at all

whoop de fucking do

Sugar and Spice- where did you get your quotes from? I actually heard adams, franklin,.....were all christians. whether they are or not is really the point anymore. why should 'under God' be taken out to make non believers happy? then you would make the believers unhappy.....no one wins...

if we are changing the pledge, can we get a new dollar bill, a new constitution.....better yet let us go back in time to 1776 and have america founded on man made principles


even if you did take out 'under God' there is still the problem with 'liberty and justice for all' where is the justice in this case.

my comment about things getting ugly...i just loathe these kind of topics, but i still want my voice to be heard

Smiley, I found them here:

http://www.wonderfulatheistsofcfl.org/Quotes.htm

Of course, as with all quotes, not all of them can be verified, but it seems fairly probable to me that at least a few of the Founding Fathers were not Christian. Deism, atheism and agnosticism were all more prevalent at the time than most textbooks would have you believe.

My guess is that while Adams, Franklin and the rest were raised Christian, they rejected it at some point in their adult lives because it no longer made sense to them.

I agree about these threads getting ugly, but we can't just avoid topics just because debates get heated -- they are important subjects even though they do make people angry. We're all adult enough not to hold grudges against people just because our political/religious beliefs differ, so I don't see the harm in discussing it.

i am just going to take your word for it that is there. i am not exactly wanting to read it. not because i am close minded (the truth is some people think my mind is way too open)
it is just my right.

I respect everyone's opinion like mine should be respected. If they want to take 'under God' out then whatever. its not like i say the pledge anyway. really 'under God' should have been taken out with the separation of church and state. furthermore, with this separartion, somebody needs to have a talk with old president bush cause his speeches and his position is getting way too spiritual/religious.

'under God' should have never been added in the first place if they want to take it out so much.:rolleyes:

i actually just saw on yahoo.com that the reason it was added in 1954 was to distinguish the US from the atheistic Soviet Union