night club catches on fire- at least 75 dead
 

so somewhat near my house (an hour or so away in RI) a night club caught on fire during a show by the great white... at least 75 are confirmed dead, and the number is expected to rise... apparantly the chaos turned into a fight until the death, literally.. they were hitting each other while trying to get out, people literally got trampled..

with that in mind, what do you all think about pyrotechnics, which caused this fire? that they are safe and this is just a fluke? or that they are unneccessary and endanger people? what about maximum capacity, would you leave a club/party because the maximum fire capacity had been reached?

I think in the coming days we'll hear that the place wasn't up to fire code of something of that nature. I saw some of the video coming through on the 24-hour stations early this morning. Very tragic.

I was up late last night and came across live coverage from Fox News. Anyway, they were interviewing the stage manager who says that the club never approved those pyrotechnic effects...those were too much for such a small enclosed space. Also the fire marshall (or someone) confirmed that Great White had never filed a permit for pyrotechnics. The place was up to code. People on the news this morning were trying to make the club sound horrible b/c there was no sprinkler system but again the fire marshall said that the place was not required to have such a system b/c of its small size.

The place was not at max capacity and all four exits were available. On a separate interview this morning someone who was actually there said that within 3 minutes all of the lights went out and the place was completely filled with smoke. So it makes sense why people became trapped. Imagine being disoriented, frightened, inhaling smoke and trying to fight 300 or so people to an exit. It's really awful to think about.....

with that in mind, what do you all think about pyrotechnics, which caused this
fire? that they are safe and this is just a fluke? or that they are unneccessary
and endanger people?

Yes I think they are unnecessary and not even worth the risk. Some things just do not belong indoors.

what about maximum capacity, would you leave a
club/party because the maximum fire capacity had been reached?

Probably now! :eek:




The death toll has moved to 86. :(
http://www.msnbc.com/news/875480.asp

As one who is very familiar with pyrotechnics (I once worked for a company that made model rocket motors), I feel it was downright irresponsible to use them indoors, especially without any measures to put out any fires which would inevitably be caused by stray bits of glowing metal particles.

Shortly after I started work for that company I was reminded in no uncertain terms how dangerous and deadly the work could be. We had a modified drill press which had attached a vacuum cleaner to suck up propellant shavings into a 55-gallon drum as we either drilled out grains or set delay charges. About once every month we'd empty out the drum and box up the shavings for disposal. Unlike black powder model rocket motors, which can be destroyed by soaking them in water, the only way to destroy composite model rocket motor shavings and discards was to take them out in the desert and burn them. Away from prying eyes and crowds (and with the approval of the fire marshal), we burned the stuff in a spectacular fireball. On calm days you'd see a perfectly formed mushroom cloud, though it was nowhere near the scale of an atomic bomb.

One time my boss dipped a small Dixie cup full of propellant shavings and took me outside the building, he then placed the cup on the ground, ran about a foot of Thermalite detonating cord and lit it. We were standing a good ways away when the stuff ignited. POOF! A fireball about two or three feet in diameter erupts, consuming the cup and shavings instantly. You could feel the heat and shockwave of the explosion even where we were standing. Should that 55-gallon drum of shavings go up, kiss the factory and the rest of the building goodbye. (Tragically, it did happen in October 2001, long after I left.)

Seeing the horrific images of the fire's beginnings (which are being milked for all they're worth on TV), it doesn't take very long for a fire to spread quickly; it's been said that within three to five minutes of the fire starting on stage, the fire was already reaching flashover conditions (when the temperatures get high enough to ignite just about anything in sight).

86 people (and the death toll keeps climbing) lost their lives through wanton disregard in handling pyrotechnics. Just makes me sick.

Even if they had sufficient exits and complied with local fire codes, it's almost an instinctive reaction for people in a panic situation to make their way to the exit they've come in, even though there are perfectly good exit doors not ten feet from them. I try to make it a point to be aware of my surroundings and observe where the nearest emergency exit is. It may be to the side or even behind you, but don't go out the way you came in!

The death toll is rising :( At least 86 now.

I think the use of pyrotechnics is completely unneccessary when it comes to indoor events... esp. since the building did not have any sprinklers.

Thats the lesson of all this. All too often, peopel tend to act like sheep. its too bad there wasnt anyone in there who could have acted in a leadership role helping people use the other emergency exits.

The images of the people trapped at the front door is horrible.

I will be making it a point from now on to notice the exits wherever I go. That sucks for those people.

so sad...
 

i think it's so sad... especially now that my local news is showing video from the show/events before, during, & after the fire. now the count is up to 95. i just can't believe it.

Yep--the death toll is up to 95 now. :(

The incident happened when it was still early evening here so I was watching it on MSNBC when they didn't even know how many fatalities there were yet.

Of course there's going to be conflicting reports on whether or not they had permission to use pyros. A rep for the band says yes, a rep for the club says no...common sense says that one shouldn't be playing with fire indoors anyway, and unfortunately the curtain caught on fire and the place was ablaze in a matter of 3 minutes.

I thought it was ironic how the WPRI guy was doing a story on club/bar safety in response to the Chicago E2 incident. It's eerie watching what happened on that video...people were just standing there, not realizing that everything catching fire was *NOT* part of the show.

My prayers go out to all the people involved in this tragedy.

The news here is saying that resuce crews have recovered all of the bodies inside. They are also saying that it's the worst fire in U.S. history in almost a century....wow.....

Yep that is incredibly scary. The news reported that some people first were excited and thought it was part of the show.

According to cnn.com, one of the band's guitarists is among the missing.

The club was NOT at capacity when this happened.

On the NBC news tonight they showed actual video of the event. According to some who did make it out the pyrotechnics went off and the back part of the stage (from what I could see) caught on fire and people were wondering if it was still part of the concert and if it wasn't why no one was putting out the fire.

The lead singer to Great White said that they were given permission to do the pyrotechnics and the club says they were not. So obviously conflicting reports there!

As a coworker said it's easy to see how people became disoriented. Especially if you think about when you go to a club, you go in one door and often don't think to look for other exits. So when the fire broke out people probably ran for the main exit because that's where they came in at.

Not quite... the Cocoanut Grove supper club fire in Boston back in the 40s killed 492.

During the early days of World War II, a major fire struck the Cocoanut Grove nightclub in Boston, Massachusetts. On the night of the fire, November 28, 1942, the club had approximately 1,000 occupants, many of whom were people preparing to go overseas on military duty. A lighted match used by an employee in changing a light bulb has been considered the possible cause for this tragic fire, which took 492 lives. Almost half of the occupants were killed, and many were seriously injured. Flammable decorations spread the fire rapidly. Men and women were reported to have clawed inhumanly in an effort to get out of the building. The two revolving doors at the main entrance had bodies stacked four and five deep after the fire was brought under control. Authorities estimated that possibly 300 of those killed could have been saved had the doors swung outward. It should be noted that the capacity of the structure had also been exceeded.

The Cocoanut Grove fire prompted major efforts in the field of fire prevention and control for nightclubs and other related places of assembly. Immediate steps were taken to provide for emergency lighting and occupant capacity placards in places of assembly. Exit lights were also required as a result of the concern generated by this fire.

[Source: http://www.ezl.com/~fireball/Disaster21.htm]

Another fire at the Beverly Hills Supper Club in Southgate, KY on June 28, 1977 killed 165.

http://www.cincypost.com/bhfire/ Detailed map of how the Beverly Hills fire started and spread: http://www.cincypost.com/bhfire/images/bhfire.jpg

This is insane...
 

I go to school in Providence, about 20 minutes away from where the fire took place. We were at the bar last night, and they were showing news footage, and there were no confirmed deaths--only 20 injuries. When I woke up at 8 this morning, there were already 54 dead. :( You have no idea what it's like to be here--everyone's waiting to hear if they knew someone who has been injured, or worse. RI is a small state, and everyone will be touched.

Throughout the day, we've been getting updates, and from what it looks like, the band didn't have permission to have pyrotechnics--and in the past few shows they've had, they have had them without permission. The club appeared, based on confirmed deaths and hospital admissions, to be at or slightly above capacity--reports are saying 350. This is clearly the worst fire in RI history, and the worst in US history in about 15 years. For one of my classes last fall, I did a paper about the Bronx social club fire (1990). It's eerie to see it happening again so close.

sorry, it said "one" of the worst........my fault, i need to listen better....

No prob there, damasa... don't worry about it. Just setting the record straight.

one of the things that i have heard today is that typically in fires in public buildings, people try to go out the same way they came in. it is really scary!

i am not surprised that people thought it was a part of the show. last year, i was flying out of logan airport and the fire alarm started going off. NO ONE even stopped what they were doing. the people who worked there just went along with what they were doing. sadly, i didn't leave either. i was sitting there thinking that if i were a child, i would have known that i needed to leave and i would have walked out. and just a few weeks ago, i was at a restaurant with some friends when the fire alarm went off. again, no one even missed a beat with their conversations. the manager came out and told us not to worry that it was a small fire in the kitchen that had been put out, but that the fire dept was on its way. he told us to stay where we were and that it was no big deal. sadly, again, no one moved. when the fire dept arrived, they were quite unhappy and the restaurant was fined!!!!! a little while later, the alarm went off again, and the manager asked us to leave.

i have almost always worked in places that have had fire escape plans and how as staff, we needed to get patrons out. i think that more businesses need to come up with plans and train their staff. i also think as patrons, we need to pay more attention to those things.

edited to add: confirmed deaths 96. possibly 2 more. all bodies have been removed. currently, 7 bodies have been identified and their families have been notified. eight more bodies will be able to be identified quickly. according to the ri gov on the 10 pm news.

my sorority has a brother fraternity that uses the same letters- Kappa Delta Phi, and one of my brothers is missing in this massive fire.. his death has not been confirmed, but he has still not yet been found... ironic, i didn't even know this when i started this thread... thoughts and prayers to his family.

I've got a feeling that one of the recommendations brought up after this fire's investigation it may become mandatory for staff and security personnel to become familiar with an evacuation plan and to usher people out of the buildings through designated emergency exits. Posting a sign just ain't gonna do it any more.

Having been in the Air Force, one of the first things that's drummed into a person is to react to ALL alarms quickly and without hesitation, save for an all-too-brief "What the f*ck?!?" moment that seems to go in slow motion before your brain engages into high gear.

Whether it's a fire alarm or the klaxon that once sent SAC alert crews running for their planes, or even the mention of "Alarm Red" (air raid/chem attack in progress), every alarm was taken seriously. It took me a LONG time to stop reacting to The William Tell Overture (the Lone Ranger theme) like it was an an alarm after I became a civilian. (It was played loudly on the base's "GIANT VOICE" (no kidding, that was its name!) public address system as the base's general recall signal. Usually followed by a monotonous voice repeating "base recall, base recall... all personnel report to your duty sections immediately!")

I remember one other time back when I was in college at OU and the tornado warning sirens went off. What did most people do (including myself) at the time? Run out to the quad and watch the roiling thunderclouds in the distance for a glimpse of a funnel cloud (A tornado had touched down in the western portion of Norman -- at the time it wasn't as heavily populated as it is today). Needless to say, the op-ed pages in the university paper the following day were screaming bloody murder over the stupidity of our actions that night. We may have gotten lucky, but don't push it! And we were reminded about what to do in case of a tornado by our RA.

The problem is that there are too many flase alarms. At one dorm here, the alarm goes off just about every day, and theyre all FAs. Here at frat row, when we first moved in, the alarms ALWAYS went off and they were FAs.


It;s just that they happen so much that people are like "Dont worry, false alarm", and dont realize it may be real this time.

When I was a freshman at A&M the dorm room 2 doors down from caught on fire b/c someone had placed a scarf over a halogen lamp. I was taking a nap and heard the fire alarm go off and jumped out of bed grabed my pet newts and ran out of the building (zit cream on my face and t-shirt/boxer shorts-I am sure I looked fabulous:) I didn't hesitate for one second-luckily no one was hurt.

I get so anxious when they show the video of the crowd just before the place is on fire-I think about the faces in the video-happy/laughing and the likelihood that those people are dead-very sad. They showed a waitress on one of the news reports and talked about her life, how she had a 7 year old son and that she was trying to make money to go to school. She looked so happy in the video-she is one of the missing :(

I lived in RI for 6 years and still have friends up there. I am happy to report that everyone is ok and all of their loved ones are ok as well.

The comapny I used to work for during breaks, the National Fire Protection Association, is responsible for writing most of the fire codes and they issued the following announcement:

Rhode Island Nightclub Fire
Educational messages for public assembly buildings

Before you enter

Have a communication plan
Identify a relative or friend to contact in case of emergency and you are separated from family or friends.
Plan a meeting place
Pick a meeting place outside to meet family or friends with whom you are attending the function. If there is an emergency, be sure to meet them there.

When you enter

Locate exits immediately
When you enter a building you should look for all available exits. Some exits may be in front and some in back of you. Be prepared to use your closest exit. You may not be able to use the main exit.
Check for clear exit paths
Make sure aisles are wide enough and not obstructed by chairs or furniture. Check to make sure your exit door is not blocked or chained. If there are not at least two exits or exit paths are blocked, report the violation to management and leave the building if it is not immediately addressed. Call the local fire marshal to register a complaint.

During an emergency

React immediately
If an alarm sounds, you see smoke or fire, or other unusual disturbance immediately exit the building in an orderly fashion.

Get out, stay out!

Once you have escaped, stay out. Let trained firefighters conduct rescue operations
Source: NFPA Public Education Division

http://www.nfpa.org/Research/FireInv...l_messages.asp

It's such a tragic situation. I only hope that future tragedies can be prevented.

Thank you for posting this. I remember fire safety instruction from when I was in grade school, high school, and college. Since then, I took a fire safety class from FDNY. In the past few years, there have been quite a few fatal fires in NYC and NJ so my co-op board provided this program, but they didn't focus on fires in clubs or public places. This information can definitely save lives.

A major mistake that people make during a fire is trying to exit the way that they entered. You need to locate the nearest exit and use it, not the way that you entered.

I live about 4 miles from this fire. It's so weird because things like this are always far away from you. They aren't so close. I was in the shower when my husband told me about it, and I felt like throwing up. But I had my sorority conference that day and had to go to Syracuse. I felt so horrible leaving the state when all of this happened, but I sort of am happy I did because it's too tragic for me to handle. It seems like everyone I know knows someone who was there. And one of the names is really familiar, I think he was in a frat at URI and dated one of my sisters. And now he's dead, if it's who I think it is. I wish this wasn't real.

The dramatic professional videotape footage inside the room came from a TV photographer from WPRI-TV in Providence. Ironically and sadly, he was there shooting a story on club safety.

According to CBS Evening News tonight, one of the owners of the club is the reporter who was doing the story. He chose his own club in which to shoot.

Now, he's pretty much not talking, and the station has issued a statement saying it had no intent of promoting the club.

Highly questionable journalistic ethics, along with the tragedy.

A word about professional news photographers. This one knew enough to get out. When he realized the gravity of the situation, he put his camera down -- saying, "To hell with the story" for all intents and purposes -- and helped evacuate those he could.

While not every photog would do that, it is my experience, and my belief, that most would. It speaks very highly of his character in a highly stressful and competitive business.