The OFFICIAL Anti-Racism Thread
 

Ok, so a few events recently (on GC and out) have gotten me really annoyed at people who continue to display racist attitudes. To them, I say, get a life and move into the 21st century.

It really bugs me when Greeks at my school or Greeks that I talk to on GC present a racist attitude. It fact, it makes me sick. I want to start this thread so anyone can post about racist stuff that has happened to them or that has happened in the Greek community, or just to affirm his/her/their chapter's anti-racist stance. I searched and couldn't find another thread like it so I hope this is not a duplicate. But what better way to end racist party themes, racist costumes, and racist attitudes than GC??

Some things that bug me:

A pledge from my school telling me, "I looked for the least diverse school possible because I knew it would be the best one"

Some fraternity brothers showing up at the Co-op at my school on Halloween of 2001 wearing blackface. When they were confronted by some black women they RAN. Cowards.

Threads or posts on GC that seem to support racism.

Re: The OFFICIAL Anti-Racism Thread
 

That's ironic. I came across the same thing at a Halloween party I went to. A guy was dressed up as a graduate from an HBCU in town. He had on a graduation gown, kente cloth, and had full blackface. He spoke in "ebonics" the entire party. I mean, is this even necessary? I would have been able to get his costume if he simply wore the gown. I taped myself cursing him out. Good times.

Re: Re: The OFFICIAL Anti-Racism Thread
 

i'd have beaten that ass. you'd be surprised at how racist people really are when they think they're safe.

Northwestern has had several hate crimes in the past week - its awful. A swastika was carved into a friend's door last night. It's really just unconscionable... beyond the fact that he is the sweetest person I know, I honestly thought this was a school that celebrated its cultural diversity... guess I was wrong:(

Clearly this is an issue that has been at the forefront of my mind lately - one of my best friends and I stayed up until 4 AM discussing this last night

I hate to break it to ya, guys, but it's not just issues of race . . . people (especially of college-age) suck in general.

I just spent 4 hours trying to get people to give their pocket change for a children's cancer fund - they'd rather shoot you a sidelong glance than give a freaking quarter to help a kid. It's unconscionable. If you can't possibly give a dollar, then no worries - but if you won't, perhaps there are other issues . . . and if you value that 43 cents in your pocket that much, you have some huge problems.

I think it's a by-product of the latent small-mindedness we foster up until (and including) college age - all you know is what is immediately around you. We shelter our kids in carefully constructed suburban communities, or create schools based primarily of one race or another - especially with white kids, few are put into positions where interaction with anything other than their exact socioeconomic group is required. Then it becomes easy to think of a group of people as being inferior, or lose any compassion for those less fortunate, because you have no immediate involvement or investure with them. In the case of these kids we're raising money for, they become a nuisence, something you read about and feel glad you're not. In the case of race, it becomes a sort of cartoon, a stereotype of a stereotype of an entire population of diverse people.

We're not talking about ethnic jokes here - it's an attitude, nay a culture, that promulgates actual abasement based on race, etc, WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OR RATIONALE BEHIND IT. It's simply surreal.

(yeah I'm pretty hot about this philanthropy thing . . . )

No joke!!! I grew up in a very diverse and non-suburban school with lots of whites, blacks, Asians, and Latino/as. If people have honestly mixed with a lot of different types of people their whole lives it is SO much less likely they will grow up to be self-satisfied suburban jerks. I get fired up about this too....:mad:

Re: The OFFICIAL Anti-Racism Thread
 

Thanks for starting this thread. i appreciate your heart.:)

This didn't happen to me but my friend and I was there. Years ago, my best friend married a Navy guy and had to move to Norfolk VA. She's German and Persian and her hubby is Af-American. Some time later their daughter was born and I was finally able to visit them. One day, we went to the mall near her home. It was Katy (my friend), her daughter Alex, Katy's other friend Stacy and Stacy's daughter, Kelsey. The two kids were the same age, 3. We go to this mall and we come to a jewlery store and both mom's want to have a look so we all go in. By the way, so you can visualize, Katy is caucasain, Alex is mulatto (1/2 black 1/2 white), Stacy is caucasian and so is Kelsey, and I'm Af-American. We walk by one of the counters and this older caucasian woman is behind it. This woman, looks at Alex, then Kelsey, then makes a comment "Oh what a cute little girl!" only in the direction of Kelsey.Then she looked back in the direction of Alex and just made a smirk on her face. Both kids are cute as a button. I looked directly at that woman and under my breath I said " You f****** bitch! How dare you do that to CHILDREN!" I'm sure she heard me because she looked up very startled. I walked out of the store. This happened over 10 years ago and I remember it like it wasa yesterday. People like that are just sad...

Re: The OFFICIAL Anti-Racism Thread
 

sorry for the duplicate*

The scary thing about this is it keeps going in a cycle...remarkably few people try to go beyond the sheltered parts of their lives, and the cycle continues.

It gets to the point sometimes where I wish whenever someone makes a comment/decision, they can be faced with those affected by the comments/decisions.

It's just a scary world when people look at you as if you have six arms when you're trying to collect for charity.

Sadly, for many people that have been sheltered in some way or another, it takes a major impact on their personal life before they can think or view things outside of the "box" they've created. I.E. a college kid that didn't think to look twice at you while collecting money for children with cancer. But what if his little brother/sister or himself was suddenly diagnosed (I wouldn't wish that upon anyone). But it really is sad and it pisses me off that it would take something like that to change the way some people think or view things......

I dont know if any of you work with the public...But I hate it when people come into the store I work in and throw their money at me or throw whatever they are going to buy on the counter for me to ring it up....WTF???? Is this normal behavior? I noticed that a lot of white people put the money on the counter for me to pick up as if they are afraid that I will touch them... I just play along and put their change right back on the counter after they pay. :p

Eh? I'm not sure I follow you. If I'm carrying an armload of goods, and I walk up to the counter, what do you suggest I do? Shall I put them on the counter to be rung up or should I hold the items in my arms indefinitely? I mean, last time I checked, that's what a cashier's job is - to ring up goods and put them in a bag.

I suspect that you might really be objecting to a lack of eye contact. You know, people who sort of "throw" items down as you call it and then stare off into space or at the magazine rack or something. In this sense they are not acknowledging you as a person but rather a robot who collects money.

I for one always make it a point to say "hello" as I walk up and "thank you" when receiving my change.

WOAH. Now you've really lost me. How in the world does a "white person" putting money on the counter translate as "they're afraid that I will touch them"???

I'm white and I generally hand the money directly to the cashier. Though I sometimes put it on the counter. Why? I'm pretty swift, you know. While my items are being rung up I'm already getting my money out. Sometimes the cashier announces the total and I think s/he is about to take the money and I try to hand it over. All of a sudden, they decide to start bagging the goods or changing the roll of receipt paper. So, instead of holding it up, I just put the money down on the counter. Sometimes I have to put the money down on the counter in order to help put the bags into my cart. I mean, there are many reasons why I might put the money down on the counter. Though, when there's no delay, I just hand it to the person at the till - I am not afraid to touch other people.

I suppose you may have a valid complaint if you live in a particularly "racist" (?) area and people really are afraid to touch you (should I assume that you are non-white?). Though, I really don't get how this is an example of a racism experience.

.....Kelly :)

You would be surprised. This happens quite frequently. Many older whites will place money on the counter instead of handing it to you in your hand even when you are specifically holding your hand out for the money. It's happened to me before and other friends of color (not just AA) who happen to be working at a cash register. Also not so many years ago during the days of segregated restaurants/stores blacks HAD to place their money on the counter and whites in turn placed the change back on the counter because white employees refused to touch their hands. Just as a side note it's funny how some common experiences have obvious racial overtones for blacks and miniorities but whites just "don't get how this is an example of a racism experience". I guess it's all about perception and experience.

I think there is a definite difference between the deliberate ignoring of an outstretched hand and the customer just plunking change down because the cashier is busy ringing things up or bagging them or whatever. I do this all the time and it has nothing to do with the cashier. And obviously throwing money is an entirely different story -- how weird. And rude.

This is a really good idea for a thread, by the way.

Hi everyone,

I want to tread very carefully and gently here. Please respect that I am asking an honest question.

Is it possible to be insensitive to white people?

It seems like this is hardly ever acknowledged because the prevailing sentiment is that "the majority [white people] have oppressed the minority [everyone else]." Therefore, it's as if it's not acknowledged that the opposite could be partly true.

Of course I acknowledge that white people have historically had the upper hand. Let's make sure that's clear.

Though, I find that people tend to lump all "white" people into one huge group regardless of origin.

I guess I'm asking because I once had an experience where someone did that to me and I found it discomforting.

I'm from San Diego, CA; a pretty diverse place. My high school had a large and diverse population. One day I was in English class when some students near me started a discussion about race. It was an honest discussion and very interesting. The classmate sitting next to me was a young black woman. She was passionately trying to convey how she felt regarding perceived injustices committed against her because of her race.

Basically, she said that she placed the blame squarely on "white people." I asked her to specify what she meant and she insisted that white people were the ones who kept slaves and therefore it's their fault. I asked her what she thought about the idea that slavery was abolished many years ago and that society is trying it's best to make a positive move forward towards complete equality.

She said that it didn't matter. White people started it back then and so *all* white people today are responsible. That comment really surprised me. I asked her if she would include me, a 16 year old white girl from San Diego into that group. She emphatically retorted, "Yes, YOU are white therefore YOU are responsible."

I then asked her what she thought about the idea of white people being oppressed as well. She didn't go for that concept at all as she didn't think that was possible for white people.

I then explained to her that my family came to the United States from Poland. My family is 100% Polish on both sides and I still have relatives in Poland. I shared with her the story about how the Nazis marched into my grandfather's village during WWII and went about their business of terrifying people, taking belongings and sending people off to die.

My family, which is Roman Catholic, had the best farm in the area. The Nazis decided that they wanted our house for officer's barracks. My poor probabcia (great-grandmother) had to hide her children so that they wouldn't be killed, raped, or conscripted into the German army. My grandfather remembers her being able to convince the Nazis that they were strong and they could work the farm. My grandfather, who was born in the US and grew up in Poland, was sent back to the US by the family against his wishes. He was the only one with a US birth certificate and they wanted him to leave for the US so that he wouldn't die. Eventually, my family was spared when the Russians advanced from the other side and the Nazis fled.

I told my classmate, "My great-grandmother cried and begged the Nazi officers not to kill them or take her son (my grandad's brother) into the army. So, instead they took the house, the farm and made slaves of my family who were lucky to even be spared a trip to the death camps. Do you still maintain that, my family being 'white' could never understand oppression? Am I, as a 'white' girl, still included on your list of people who are responsible for colonial American slavery?"

Everyone fell silent.

She stammered, "Well you're an exception then" and went back to her work.

My post is NOT meant to say that people from racial or ethnic minorities have no case. My classmate had valid feelings and, for the most part, expressed them in an appropriate way. Granted, we were just teenagers then, but that's not the only time in my life I've had that type of conversation, just the best example of one such occassion.

I just wanted to express that I object to all white people being lumped into the category of "the man" who has been keeping everyone down. Some groups of white people have experienced hatred as well.

To this day, it breaks my heart to see my grandfather cry when he thinks back to the days when the Nazis came to town and how badly he was treated by others when he came to America. I was lucky to not have to have experienced that. Though, believe it or not, I still get rude racist remarks about "dumb Pollacks". :(

It isn't fair for anyone to have to experience racism and hatred. I do feel for groups who admittedly have larger hills to climb; but some people you may not had thought of before had to climb hills too.

Thank you for allowing me to share.

.....Kelly

Thank you, for your helpful reply. I see what you are saying. I did mention that possibility in my original reply and it sounds like it could be what's happened here.

Though, for me, I don't think it's a case of, because I'm white, I "don't get how this is an example of a racism experience." It's more of a, "I come from a very ethnically diverse place and we don't seem to have this type of situation very often." I am very fortunate to have grown up in Southern California to parents who were accepting of other people. If I am ignorant about the racial overtones in something like the example given, it's because of very innocent reasons. And really, isn't it a positive sign of the times when whole groups of people don't "get" why someone wouldn't want to touch another? Wouldn't it be great if it was a non-issue for everyone? It's getting there and I for one am glad!

Thanks again for your positive reply.

.....Kelly :)

Just off topic, which high school?

I'm not exactly sure what your question in navene but if I'm reading correctly you are asking if it's possible for whites to be oppressed. I definately agree that many ethnic groups/religious groups have faced persecution within this country. The thing is that although you may recieve comments about being Polish, looking at you I or other members of the community do not know you are Polish until you share that with us. You have the ablity to "blend" into community so to speak. I or other African-Americans and minorities to not have this ability. We go through life on a daily basis being "different" from the majority of the people around us in power. I can only speak for myself but as a black woman I experience rascism on a daily basis, most of the acts are subtle, small and not worth the time it would take for me to confront them so I let them go but at times I do experience overt rascism. The sad thing is most young, white American's have this belief that rascism does not exist. You yourself said that slavery was abolished many years ago and that society is doing it's best to move forward. The very fact that you couldn't understand what the black woman was talking about when she spoke of the money situation shows me that you have not faced the daily harassment and rascism many African American's go through. I promise you if you ask 10 African American's about the money situation that at least 7 will tell you simliar incidents have happened to them. It's all about experiences. I would just like to say that rascism does not begin and end with slavery. Rascism exists today just as much as it does today and I challenge you to listen carefully and look closely as you are out today and see if you hear any comments that migh be just a little disparaging about African-American's or other minorities, or if you go into a store and notice a customer of color being followed. You may be surprised at what you find.

The best way I can describe it is by sharing the story of a white male who decided he wanted to find out if rascism truly existed anymore. This was in the early 90's. He purchased a wig and got treatments to make his skin darker so he could live as a "black man". He originally planned to live as a black man for 3 months and to record his findings. He lasted for about 3 days before stopping the projected because he just couldn't take the consistent acts of hidden and overt rascism he felt on a daily basis.

Madison High School.

Madhouse c/o 95!!!!

.....Kelly :)

Hmmm, a modern day experiment/version of the book, "Black Like Me". Interesting.... :)

Yes, absolutely. Because my ethnic background allows me to "blend in" with other white people I don't feel singled out. I agree with you on this.

Though, on an amusing side note, when I was in high school, I was really dark. I had Mexican classmates who didn't realize until the week before graduation that I wasn't Mexican! I also had MANY black people ask me if I was half-white and half-black. I have since become much lighter for some reason.

Oh, of course not! I specifically mentioned slavery in my post because, in the example I cited, the young black woman I was speaking to told me that white colonial slave owners were the root cause of all the trouble and that I must be somehow genetically related to them. She was presenting a very narrow definition and I was using it to illustrate that point.

Again, I am in agreement with you. I never intended to assert that racism has been solved - I hope that's not how my post came across.

This isn't meant to be a "once when I was in third grade I once had some black friends so I'm ok" comment or anything. But I do wish to address your suggestion that I try and look closely at how an African-American person goes about their business. My father is a widower. A couple years ago he started dating an African-American woman. And, hey, they're still together and she lives in my house. So, it's not like I'm a total ignoramous or something. :) I have been out places with Arnetta and whatnot. At our house we don't care what people think of us being different races but that's another thread. Edited to add: My elderly Polish grandfather? He's a widower too and he has an elderly Filipina girfriend!!!

I am not black. I am not asian. I am not hispanic. So, unfortunately, I can never truly and fully understand what you experience. The best I can do is engage in honest dialogue and try to come to an understanding. I hope we are achieveing this today.

Again, I really wish to express my appreciation for the honest and non-bashing discussion. Thank you very much.

.....Kelly :)

That actually happens to me from time to time and I work in a coffee shop. So there is no reason to really put the money on the counter next to my outstretched hand, cause i am not bagging anything.

Racscism really upsets me. I have seen it in peron several times. I've seen the Klu Klux Klan many times. I have had a hate newsletter on the steps of my dorm on campus. Neither of these acts were targeted towards me per sey, but it was scary none the less. Some one called me "Jew girl" to my face. Those are the type of people who are knieve. They don't know what someone Jewish or any other minority is like because they have never met anyone like that. I am NOT defending these people, I'm just saying that chances are they have NOT been exposed to different kinds of people.
I have also seen swasckia stickers in a city park before. Pretty creepy. I tried to peel them off the lamp post that they were on.

White people invented chitlins, well haggis, which is the same thing, only sheep. I had chitlins before, but then they told me what they were and how they made them, and then they made more. What white people do, or at least, what these white people did, was take deer bacon (which is bacon only made from a deer and is very salty) and wrap it around the chitlin. I hope I helped bridge a gap.

oh yeah, the point of my last post was/is that we really aren't that different. We do the same things, live in the same culture, and share the same history. Why? because America is a melting pot. If something in another American's history then it should be considered part of my history, because I'm American too. Everyone should know who invented the street lights and elevator and also the lightbulb. We should unite, becuase really when you get right down to it, it doesn't matter if what ethnicity, nationallity, religion or sexual orientation some one is. We are all humans and should treat each other with understanding and compassion.

The problem with racism, as silly as it may sound, isn't so much that really obvious stuff, the KKK and the swastikas, etc. I think most Americans believe that is "wrong," and overt racists like that really are a minority group. I don't mean to belittle that kind of problem - these people can do real damage - but their kind of racism isn't considered acceptable by most people. And in that sense we have come a long way - I just don't see slavery being legalized again, for example.

The bigger problem is the little, pervasive racisms that people who aren't experiencing them don't even notice. Like that study that obviously "black" names were a detriment on a resume. Or using phrases like "JAP." Or saying things like, "I don't think of you as [insert racial group here] - you seem white to me." Because they are subtle, many people won't notice unless they're directly affected. It's not as obvious as, say, slavery, or wearing a KKK robe. The problem is I think that lots of people think that unless they've noticed something themself, it doesn't really exist.

I try at least to think that if most of a group are perceiving something, they're probably not mass hallucinating. I don't always agree when an individual says something is racism, but on a mass level, if 4 out of 5 dentists agree, so to speak, they're probably on to something.

That was very accurate.

racism
 

I am your average, white-Jewish girl from NY. So what, right?
You try getting into Law School with those stats and see where it gets you.
I have watched my non-white friends, with lower grades, lower SAT scores, and less activities get into schools when I haven't. My younger sister was rejected from U of Florida b/c she was your average, white-Jewish girl and they didn't need any more of those. Her friend is a Hispanic-Jewish male, with lower scores and less activities and he was granted admission. UF has some diversity issues.
I am very proud of who I am and where I am. Law school is no piece of cake, but it annoys me that some of the other students feel as though they are "entitled" to something b/c they aren't white. Most of my family was exterminated in the Holocaust. I have relatives from Israel, to NY, to Australia, to Russia and back. My family has never asked for anything and doesn't feel as though anyone owes us anything just b/c we're Jewish. As long as people go around blaming others for what ails them they have an excuse to never go further.
Until the day I die I can say poor me, my family was gassed to death and put in ovens, therefore I can sit on my ass and make the world around me pay for it.
That's a shitty way to live and I won't do it.
Currently I am taking a Human Rights class in an effort to make the world a better place. I have seen the suffering of millions and do what I can to change it. But as long as there is ignorance in this world, nothing will change. People need to understand that it is our differences that makes us all the same. Unfortunately it's those differences that scares people and creates racism.
~C

I agree with you 100% on your whole post but you were really right on when you said this. I have seen several blacks on this board say that their white friends don't "see them as black" and I have even had a white person say this to me. My question is , Why don't they see you as black because , guess what YOU ARE my friend. You are different and that is not something that is negative or needs to be ignored. Is it because these so called friends associate being black with negatives such as speaking improper english, wearing a certain type of clothes or behaving in a certain way? And when they make these comments do you stop them and say, hey you are way off or do you help perpetuate these stereotypes by not speaking up? I am an African-American female who makes great grades, speaks proper english, plays the violin, and wears clothes from the Gap and if someone where to say to me that they didn't think of me as black I'd kindly remind them that blacks have accomplished many great things in this country in the areas of academia, public service, government, and the arts just to name a few, and they need to let those sterotypical notions of what is black go. Someone telling you that they don't think of you as black is not a compliment but an indication that they hold some strange notions of what being black means. Don't just sit there passively and smile but use that as an opportunity to educate your "friends".

Re: racism
 

I think most schools have some diversity issues.

I go to the University of Wisconsin. For those of you who don't remember, it's the school that pasted a black man's face into a sea of white ones on an application booklet in order to make the school seem more "diverse." Right now there is a huge push to get more minority applicants at the school, and while I think that's a good idea in theory, I'm not sure the school is going about it in the best way. Not only do minorities get higher consideration when they apply to the school, but they also get much higher consideration when they apply for any campus job or position of authority that puts them in the public eye -- RA, tour guide -- and there are huge amounts of money spent on multicultural programming, a number that is probably disproportionate to the number of minorities at the school. (We also have people called "multicultural liaisons" and "LGBT liaisons" who are students paid to put on programming aimed at minorities, and they organize things every month, which I think is a good idea in theory -- but hardly anybody shows up!) This really creates a culture of division between the "majority" and the "minority," which I think is more harmful than not having enough minorities in the first place. It leads to a lot of bitterness and increases the attitude that most of the minorities couldn't get into the school in the first place without the help of their skin color, and that they "don't really deserve to be there," which makes the campus atmosphere towards minorities that much worse.

There needs to be a better way to go about improving the diversity of our school -- this can't be the best way.

Want to know something weird? Swatstikas were used to sell bread. The company was Native American owned and called Swatstika Bread. It had a big swatstika on it and I think a little girl too. Also, the swatstika as a religious symbol has been found in India and East Asia (on the Buddha statues) and in Europe as symbol of the Sun God., and I believe later the some sects of Christians used it. That's why the nazis picked, they knew it would resound with people. They ruined it for everyone. Stupid assholes.

I swore I would never post this experience of mine in public, but given the civility of the thread and all of those therein :) I think I might work up the nerve...........

I had an introduction to what seems to be a unique facet of discrimination starting in the 3rd grade. My parents both had families hailing from New York City--they knew how to get along w/ people from all walks of life, ethnic backgrounds, etc because they had met so many. I learned not to pre-judge people on a superficial basis when I was knee-high to a grasshopper.

When I was in the middle of the 3rd grade, we moved to a new community. This was a large yet tight-knit town, with 95% of the social interaction based around a couple of local synagogues. I was raised as a Protestant Christian.

On my first day of school, my new teacher sat and met with me and both of my parents. She asked point blank which synagogue we were joining.

"None of them, I'm afraid. We're Christians."

"You're not Jewish?"

"Uh...no, we're not."

"So what in the world are you doing HERE??? "

And so began my new life--on the outside of the community because of my religion and ethnic background. My parents had the same trouble crossing barriers that I had, but they had more skills as adults to deal with it. The first 2 or 3 weeks, people woudl drop in to say hello, or invite us for a visit in their homes. When the synagogue question came up, there was an awkward silence then...."My, look at the time! Here's your hat, what's your hurry?"

I learned to rely on myself. I became a self-sufficient loner. Only a few friends were scattered here and there, other religious/ethnic minorities who had been shunned. Most of them moved away from the neighborhood, so there are no "lifelong friends" in my scrapbooks.

I already know, this is not even close to the racism that many ethnic minorities face today. It's ironic as hell that most of the people involved were all white, yet some found a reason to discriminate against others anyway.

I learned quite a few lessons from this:

1) Anyone is capable of being a bigot. Prejudice is a behaviour, not an inborne trait that some people have and others don't.

2) Anyone can be a victim of prejudice, depending on the circumstance. People will find SOME way, SOME how to single others out. As I said above, most of these people were white, and yet there was still discrimination.

3) Being resentful of past wrongs based on someone's pre-judging of you is a choice, not a destiny. It would be *easy* for me to be resentful of other ethinic or religious groups based on my isolation growing up. However, I learned through high school and on through college that someone has to be the first to break the cycle. Someone has to be the first to not return or perpetuate the injustice that was done to them. I made the choice to break the cycle.

4) Even out of a youth of prejudice and isolation, something positive can grow. I developed a love of Comparative Theology and world history, that came from trying to understand the people around me, instead of writing them off.

I may be white, but I've seen enough forms of discrimination to know it still exists. I am Catholic today and there are some areas of Texas and the South that I avoid like the plague. (The Klan would hang me and my husband as fast as any AfAm or Jewish person because of our Catholic faith.) This is more of a vent/sharing that a solution--I don't have one, really.

Thanx to the people who created this thread. I had no idea I would ever have the nerve to share what I just did.

Adrienne (PNAM-2003)
:)

I am in tune with African-American culture.

-Rudey
--I was the world's biggest fan of Family Matters. I wish I had grown up next to Eddie and Laura.

Those are some AMAZING words. Thank you for sharing them! I only wish more people could see the positive effects of negative situations.

those were some great words adduncan


Personally I believe ignorance is forgivable because it is correctable. you may simply educate someon about diversity and equality to overcome stereotypes and prejudice. And they can change. If they continue to be ignorant, it is no longer ignorance, it is intolerance and that is unforgivable.

Virtuous, I'm glad someone understands what I'm talking about...

Navane...You just don't get it.....

First off, I want to apologize in advance if I offend anyone because that isn't my intent.

A girl I knew back in 6th grade said something I've never forgetten on this exact topic. She, her parents, and her sister were all white. Her older brother, who was black, was adopted before she and her sister were born. One day, a few kids were making fun of her for having a black brother. She was really hurt by it and was telling us about it. She told us, "I never thought of him as black. It doesn't matter what he is, he's my brother. I never really noticed he was different from me until other kids said something."

Does this mean she thought all African Americans fit a certain stereotype and that her brother didn't and was therefore not black? No. It means he was her brother first, and the fact that he happened to be of a different race wasn't a factor in their relationship.

While I can't speak for everyone, I don't think saying that you don't think of someone as black, or Jewish, or a woman, or gay, or whatever means that you must have the group they belong to stereotyped in some way. I wouldn't want to be known as someone's white, semi-Catholic, female, heterosexual friend. The fact that I'm all of those influences who I am, of course, but I'd wonder a little more about someone who always has a person's race at the front of their mind than someone who doesn't think twice about it because it doesn't change their relationship.

I think it's different when it's your brother, who you've spent your whole life with, than when it's just someone you know. It's usually a silly statement, because race is one of the first things we notice about a person, and to pretend you don't is a little hypocritical. Now if it's your brother, you probably mostly think of his as your hero or a pain in the arse, even if he's a purple man from Mars.

To say you think of a person as your sorority sister/roommate/co-worker before you think of them as [insert race here] is one thing, as I don't think any of us want to be defined race-first - but to say that you somehow managed to never even notice their race (and somehow assumed they were the same race as you) strikes me as such a strenuous attempt to pretend that race doesn't matter that it's obvious that race does matter. It's implying that X race is somehow different from your race, and it also implies that that person has "risen above" their race to be like yours.

But, Eirene I think she is making quite the effort to. I think everyone in the thread is making an effort to have adult, non-confrontational discussion about this always timely and always important topic.

I'm a white as white can be girl from the Mid-West. I had a very liberal and accepting mother and so those values were intstilled in me and I am grateful for that. But except for the occasional minority in a class or at work, I wasn't exposed enough to them to really appreciate the issues they have to deal with on a day to day basis.

I am now dating a Puerto Rican man and it's become quite clear to me. He can drive through the Bronx alone no problem. When I am with him, every cop car slows down and looks at me - as if to see if I'm ok being with this Hispanic man. When I fly by myself, I never get stopped. When I am with him, always. When we were looking for apartments, he would call and leave his name (both first and last name being distinctively Latin) and we wouldn't get a call back. I'd leave my name with the same people and be called back right away. It's definitely opened my eyes.

Yet we still do not see eye to eye on some issues, and I am not sure we ever will. I mention how his name was a clear indicator to his Ivy League school what his bacground was and probably helped him get in. He agrees and says he doesn't care as they were shut out for so long. As he got a worse public school education becaue the city under-funds the more "ethnic" schools, how standardized tests are geared towards whites, etc. And he is right! But it still doesn't seem ok to me that maybe he took the place of a white kid who worked his butt off to get into an Ivy League school, too.

I guess I "just don't get it". But the point is, I can't. I never lived it, so I will never truly know it. All I can do is keep discussing it, try to understand it, try to educate myself and my own children and hope that someday they won't have to have this discussion with your children.

For the record (and I'm not saying you're talking about me personally, I just don't want to be misunderstood), I wasn't saying that I don't notice race. I think everyone does when they meet someone, just like you notice hair color, body type, etc. But after I've personally developed a relationship with someone, it's not one of the first things that pop into my head when thinking about that person. If someone else asks me to describe that person physically, I mention it, but if I'm just talking about the person, I don't say their race/religion/sexual orientation/etc. unless it has some bearing on the story I'm telling.

The girl saying she never noticed her brother's race was also 12 or so when she said that...considering her age, I thought it was a fairly wise, and heartfelt, statement.