Cultural "Greeks"
 

I don't mean to start a flame war, but I've viewed some of the threads here, and I wanted to bring up a sentiment felt very strongly at my campus, and probably on others as well.

I've noticed some of the members on this forum belong to "cultural" organizations. There are several of those here, and after talking with several other greeks, I have to ask the question: Are these organizations really necessary?

These orgs only promote segregation. Why must one only limit themselves to one race or culture? This only creates tension between greek orgs that cater to different races, i.e a Hispanic org getting into it with an Asian org.

Sure, membership is not relegated to people of the race/culture in question, but why should an org's premise only cater to promoting their race/culture? Why not try to work within every aspect of the community?

And with "multicultural" orgs, how exactly does one "promote" multiculturalism? Does that mean that IFC/Panhellenic orgs, that no longer limit their membership by race, do NOT promote multiculturalism?

Another point: most of these organizations were created in the 80s-90s, long after the IFC and Panhellenic greeks had already desegregated. Has there every really been a need for them in this day and age?

Two exceptions though. The Divine Nine were created during a time when IFC and PHC greeks WERE segregated, so that would be considered an exception to the theory.

And, in areas like the South, where there still is high racial sentiment, MAYBE cultural orgs would be ok, but I'm sure many of the IFC and PHC greeks there have members of various races as well.

The fight between Pi Alpha Phi and Lambda Phi Epsilon further shows the gang mentality that many of these orgs have, a bad influence in the greek community and the community in general.

These are all views that I've heard from other greeks. So I ask again. are they really necessary?

Re: Cultural "Greeks"
 

Do you realllly think with all racial tension that we have in this world that everyone will join organizations that promotes BROTHERHOOD and SISTERHOOD together?

If that's the way everyone thought, then IFC and PHC orgs would have only white members, but it wouldn't be their fault. Why don't people of other races try to break the barrier and try to promote Brotherhod and Sisterhood within the IFC and PHC, and relieve some of that "racial tension"?

No matter what your intent is, don't expect responses to stay polite. How would you like it if I asked why your organization was necessary? After all there are so many other fraternities, why do we need yours?

I think the very fact that these organizations exist is proof that someone felt they were needed - it takes a lot of hard work to establish a new organization, especially in the face of negative attitudes. They don't have to justify their existence to you or to me or anyone else.

I couldn't disagree with you more, Randall. I believe that cultural based organizations (and fraternities and sororities) give individuals the opportunity to connect with people with similar interests, backgrounds, plans, and idealogies (much like any other fraternity or student group).

You go where you feel most comofortable, and let's face it people sometimes our (NIC, NPC) organizations are NOT comfortable to everyone and can be very restrictive in focus and show a lack appreciation of diversity. (generalization)

Not to mention that culturally based organizations (much like ours should) take to heart the idea of service to society, and mentoring and education and yes even uplift of their own ethnic or cultural backgrounds....and what's wrong with that?

I don't think that they suffer from or have anytype of "gang mentality" because let's face it there could be several (although basic) similarities drawn between gangs and ALL fraternities. (inititation, nicknames, letters, symbols, colors, territory)

And as far as multicultural organizations it "promotes" multiculturalism as one of their aims, standards, or goals, much like my organizations prmotes "freindship, scholarship, and moral rectitude." There aren't many (or any that I'm aware of) NIC or NPC organzations that specifically state one of their founding purposes or ideals as "multicultural"

Thanks for listening.

are you kidding me? of course they're needed. the "regular" frats probably don't offer what people in the "cultural" frats do. on that note, do we need the "regular" frats? the asian frats do their thing (good stuff for the community, helping people out), how is this fight different from a brawl between the pikes and sig eps or a fight between the ques and the alphas? it's not, and there isn't a gang mentality there. if you don't like them promoting their culture and their race, don't mess with them. i'm pretty sure they could care less about you anyway. they're necessary for those people who want to go greek and want to promote their culture. i'm pretty damn sure the "regular' frats are sure as hell not going to promote asian culture for their few asian members. and while many of the organizations talk about being desegreted or whatever, they're still predominantly WHITE.

becuase they don't like those organizations. it's not rocket science. when i was a freshman, i got jocked by one of those IFC organizations, i didn't do it becuase i didn't like them like that. if people don't want IFC or PHC, then let them be.

And why WOULD they promote it? That's not why they were created. We had a Japanese member (as in from Japan) and while she introduced us hicks to some aspects of her culture, she didn't want to talk about it all day. If I was an Asian who joined a "regular" group and they decided they had to have a program on Asian culture because of me, I would be pretty offended.

EXACTLY!!!!! that's why those asian orgs. are needed, to promote and have that kind of stuff for the asian culture. that's the purpose for why those orgs. are created.

Wow, this is pretty heavy. . .and hopefully, people answering these threads are in cultural organizations. And remember, there are multicultural ones.

Cultural organizations came about because people want to go Greek but not lose their identity. When people get shoveled into an IFC or PHC, they get seen as being a part of a predominantly white organization with a few colors sprayed here and there. Their point of view gets muffled. I would know since I am the only black in my sorority. . .the second one in almost 18 years for my chapter. I can speak from MY POINT of view and say that

yes, there is sisterhood but they don't understand my view of a situation. like when i didn't want to participate in a SERVICE AUCTION(you just don't ask a black person to sell themselves especially when there's nothing but white guys in the audience). . .that kind of looks 1800s. so, when i said no, everyone was wondering why. it wasn't until i related it to slavery that girls understood and called the whole thing off. or the time when someone was decorating a door and they put white actresses up for everyone including me. . .and then, when i pointed it out to them that i wasn't white. . .they laughed and said 'we don't look at you like that'. . .i was confused. what do they see me as?

thus, someone else probably had that same experience. they went through rush, talked to a couple of people who made jokes about chinese food or fried chicken or illegal immigrants and they may have laughed on the outside. . .but on the inside, they probably thought, 'is this how you see me?' and a cultural organization was born.

that's happened to me before, but i didn't just laugh and play it off. i set them straight at that moment.

i love the cultural ogranizations
every time i go to chicago, i pass on my own sorority to hang out with the cultural organizations
i came from texas where culture is everywhere
so any time i'm near it, i submerge

Re: Cultural "Greeks"
 

Sheesh! Well, yes, many NIC and NPC groups here in the backward South do have members of various races. In some cases, I would wager that they have more such members than similar groups in more "enlightened" parts of the country. Talk about geographical bias.

And for the record: Of course I am not in any way denying the history of racial discrimination and segregation throughout the South. We know it has been a deeply imbedded part of culture here for centuries. But in many cases (not all, of course), that knowledge has spurred Southerners to be more aware of racial problems and to work harder to eradicate them than some people in other parts of the country who prefer to think that the South is the epicenter of racial prejudice.

so true, so true
but there's is more snobbish distrust

I agree that there is a need for cultural organizations. Unforntunately, it sometimes hurts my NIC organization, because it is a lot harder to get people from different backgrounds. Having people with different life experiences is a huge reason I joined and right now my chapter is not as diverse as I would like. Also, from a operations standpoint having people with many different views and experiences is an asset that is missing if you have a lot of people from the same background.

I just don’t care about what other people do; do what’s best for you.

"Hold up...wait a minute"
 

Listen up, and listen good: This was an ISOLATED incident. To say that MANY of these orgs. have this "gang mentality" is truly ignorant. I sense that you have very little understanding of what our organizations stand for.

Let me tell you why MY organization was needed on MY campus: The IFC and Panhellenic Councils (up until even the 1990s) were throwing "Cross-the-Border" parties, in which attendees had to dress like "illegal aliens" and further, have their backs sprayed down with water (read: "wetback") AND crawl in the dirt under a fence to get into the parties. They were also throwing "Mexican Fiestas" that were so full of stereotypes that I don't even have time to list them all here. Further, we had a few fraternity songbooks exposed, and among the contents, were songs that were extremely derrogatory to Mexican women...yeah, in the 1990s.

Would you have felt comfortble in joining one of these councils if you were I? I don't think so. Most Latina women did not. What's even worse, my roommate was constantly telling me to go through Panhellenic Rush because "every house would want me." When I asked why, she said, "Well, we really need to increase the number of ethnic girls this year." Sorry, but I wasn't going to be ANYONE's "token Chicana." You mentioned that many IFC and Panhellenic groups desegregated a while back...well, sorry again, but I was NEVER going to join something in 1994 that would not have accepted me or other women of color in 1944.

Don't get me wrong, I feel comfortable with people of all backgrounds who demonstrate respect and courtesy. However, I did not feel that a Panhellenic sorority was right for me. The Latina sorority chapter that I went on to found made an effort to reach out to ALL greeks on our campus, with great success. We worked with everyone who was interested in serving the community (and, yes, our work included serving MANY DIFFERENT communities, with an emphasis on empowering the FEMALE community). I didn't feel segregated at all, and I made many great friends in each of the various councils, including IFC and Panhellenic, NPHC, and Asian Greek Council. It was a great feeling to be so supported by the greek community at large.

Bottom line, my feeling is that each individual should join the organization that he or she can call "home." All organizations are needed, and if a fraternity or sorority of ANY type can help a person feel supported, and reach the goal of college graduation, it is a very good thing. My advice to the person who posted the original comments is to take some time to get to know and understand ALL the greeks on your campus. You will learn a lot and might even make some new friends.
:)

Well...
 

Starang21, White_Chocolate and others have made very good comments. I would like to add that the reason there are cultural greeks is because when historically White glos were started, in the late 1800's and early 1900's, Blacks, Hispanics and Asians were not generally welcomed on predominately White college campuses, and definitely not in secret societies where membership was dependent on being accepted by the group. Since White society as a whole were/are not accepting of minorities, then the children of White people were most likely not going to be either. So, cultural glos were started to give non-Whites the same experience.

I can only speak for NPHC glos when I say that in addition to their social aspects, there is a HUGE emphasis on service to the community, particularly the Black community. Usually, you will find NPHC groups listed as service organizations on campuses because most of our activities are service oriented.

When I got to college I wanted to join a sorority and I knew for a few reasons that it would be a Black sorority. One, because that is what I grew up with, two, because NPHC sororities do an excellent job of addressing issues in the Black community and three, I felt that NPC orgs at my univeristy (here in the south) would not give me a bid, simply because I am Black. And lastly, I picked who I felt most comfortable with.

Despite all of what has been said, this topic is not simply black and white (no pun intended). In my historically Black sorority we do have White and Hispanic members. When society as a whole breaks down racial barriers, then maybe a student of any race can join any glo of his or her choice because that particular glo has some traits the he/she likes.

SigmaDiva, while I agree in essense with what you said, I'm not aware of any Asian or Hispanic GLOs that were founded before the last 25 years. You're absolutely right that Asians and Hispanics were not welcome in most GLOs in the late 1800s or early 1900s, but that was not when they were formed.


*edited for typo

Re: Cultural "Greeks"
 

And with "multicultural" orgs, how exactly does one "promote" multiculturalism? Does that mean that IFC/Panhellenic orgs, that no longer limit their membership by race, do NOT promote multiculturalism?

After pondering Randall, the webstarters question. . .I wonder through the official webpages of both multicultural and IFC/Panhell groups. I could see where someone would mistaken multicultural with 'celebrating'. Multicultural is just what it means. . .encouraging men and women no matter what race to unite in the bonds of friendship and 'hood. I guess they feel that they promote it thorough the fact that there is no ONE dominant race. Everyone is seen as equal.

As for the other organization, I don't know how they promote it. I've seen one group that attends every kind of lecture, film festival, cultural shin-dig possible. I guess that is promotion. Funny, this group was a NPHC sorority.

>>>And, in areas like the South, where there still is high racial sentiment, MAYBE cultural orgs would be ok, but I'm sure many of the IFC and PHC greeks there have members of various races as well.<<<

I am FROM and LIVE IN the South, so I am not cracking on the South when I say this, but I would guess that on any large Southern campus where a high number of NPC and IFC organizations are represented, you would not find, all totaled, more than a dozen members of other races - especially in NPC groups. Ways to bring about change have been discussed on this board AD NAUSEUM and I am not advocating anything. Just don't kid yourself into thinking that NPC and IFC groups at Southern colleges are diverse. They are not.

And BTW - cultural organizations have a valuable place just like NPC and IFC organizations do. To each his own.

this is one of THOSE threads.

and off top, who really cares when the orgs were founded. it really doesn't matter. what matters is what they do for the community.

i'm glad she said it because it is true. the first school that i went to is living proof. . .and i'm not going to call any names.

however, it's looking past these petty things and encouraging all groups to look past the skin. . .which i don't think will ever be done.

No - that's what matters to you.

My organization was founded as a social fraternity, with emphasis on improving its members.

Now, one vital aspect to this would, of course, be found in community service - service to others is perhaps the most fruitful undertaking. However, to judge my organization based upon community impact would be to miss the point - this would be akin to ranking all baseball teams on home runs hit, rather than wins and losses. Instead, the impact/improvement on individual members must be judged, as that is the ultimate goal.

This is where we begin to agree, however - "cultural" organizations, or rather organizations based around and dedicated to specific (or multiple) cultural backgrounds are VITAL for those who seek that kind of environment, just as (primarily) social organizations are important for those seeking out that particular environment.

Look at the Divine Nine - I don't think any would argue that these nine organizations don't serve an amazing and important role in college life for many who actively seek out what they provide. And how did the NPHC houses reach this level? Time and effort - allow these 'newer' groups, which we're calling "cultural" groups, this time, and hopefully they can raise themselves to the heights that the NPHC organizations are attaining.

Amen! :)

[ ... ]I'm not aware of any Asian or Hispanic GLOs that were
founded before the last 25 years. You're absolutely right that Asians
and Hispanics were not welcome in most GLOs in the late 1800s or early
1900s, but that was not when they were formed.

Pi Alpha Phi was founded in 1926 at UC Berkeley. Unfortunatly their
web site has been taken down so there's no way to verify this right
now.

Lambda Phi Epsilon was founded at UCLA in 1981.

FYI
Sigma Omicron Pi--Asian American sorority-- 1930 @ San Francisco State University (that chapter was re-established in 1988) They have since added several more chapters.

Excellent post, FuzzieAlum!! While I certainly would never want to join an any type of all-Asian club or association, nor would I ever want my daughter to, I don't think that they're "unnecessary." And you're right, these clubs don't need to justify anything to anyone.

XOXO,
Annie.

I think you can look at this from a broader perspective and see that it makes perfect sense. When we went greek, the vast majority of us chose an organization that was gender exclusive. As a woman, I enjoy being in a sorority because it gives me a chance to bond with other women and prove what we can do in our own lives. I'm assuming men join fraternities for the same reason- as much as we are diversified in life, sometimes it's nice to be with someone who have something inherently in common with us. We can then promote that, and thus promote ourselves into better people. It really only makes sense to me that some people want to add another identifying aspect to their group- a lack of outlets for activities based on (for example) Asian awareness, would obviously prompt interested people to come together. I'm not sure if all of this makes sense- I guess my point is, before you think "cultural" organizations are wierd and/or pointless, consider how similar they are in basis to your own org.

Sadly, it does matter when a particular org was founded. The founding members incorporated their ideology of the time into the org; and this same ideology is perpetuated by some of the members. Yes, I do agree that most NPC/IFC and NPHC orgs have non-discriminatory statements but, that does not mean each member will adhere to it. Also, there are still 25 yr and 50 yr members of these orgs (with lots-o-cash) who can 'influence' policy. It is easy to point to the non-majority member of the org and say, 'See, we don't discriminate.', but it is what is in the hearts of the other members that truly count.

Look for the answers in many of the peoples posts. IFC = regular frats. Predominately white organizations = regular. So does this make the others irregular? Why would someone who doesn't fit that mold want to be considered irregular? I know I would want to feel at home and normal. I don't want to be a token. I don't want to be the girl everyone points to and says, "see she is one of us, you can be too". It may be for some but it's not for me. My school had a lot of these "multicultural" orgs and they are all cool people. Most greeks on my campus get along. If you are mad that the other orgs are getting all of those "irregular people" so you have no one to make an example of to attract other "irregulars", I don't know what to tell you. I sometimes wonder why there are so many multicultural greeks at my campus, but they chose one and noth the other, so there must be some difference that I don't see.

Tell it Soror!

I HAVE AN IDEA!!! But, in order for it to work, it will take cooperation from everyone in order to work. Here is what you do. Go look in the mirror. Realize that you are individual, and complety unique. Now, look at some one else. They are individual and uique too. Realize that, while we have many similairties, and are drawn to others with such simialar charecteristics, we are all individuals, and deseriving of such respect that you would have for the person you saw in the mirror.

NOW ON TO A RELEVENT TOPIC:

SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!! STOP FLAME WARS STARTED BY RANDOM ASS PEOPLE WHO SHOW UP AND ONLY MAKE TWO POSTS OR SO. GUESS WHAT. RANDALL IS LAUGHING AT YOU.

ONE OTHER THING.

Everyone is a cultural Greek. Why? Because they are predomintaly North American Orgs. Their very existance hinges on OUR culture.

Forgive me for being insensibly naive, but I'm amazed that this is such an issue. I'm in a local which is very mixed and we absolutely do not consider ourselves multi-cultural. Despite this, we still do "cultural" stuff. A number of us always do the South Asia Society dance for the school's culture show--and it's an "ethnic mix" of girls. We hit up the San Genaro festival and dinner in Chinatown as fall rush events. We don't do this because we're promoting culture or trying to incorporate ethnic histories into our organization, but because it's fun. We avoid holding major ceremonies and events on friday nights because we don't want our two members who keep the sabbath to miss things.
We do that not because we're trying to play a cultural awareness game, as such, but because it matter's to us that all of us have the chance to be at important events. It's funny. When we talk about targeting specific "groups" during rush, we mean convincing more artists and architects to give being greek a chance (our school is only art, architecture and engineering, and sometimes its like pulling teeth to convince artists and architects here that this could be fun and enriching.) Strange thing was--I thougt we were "regular." Our two NIC fraternities on campus are "mixed" too. It's not like we're not aware what race each of us is--it just doesn't make a difference to whether or not you fit it. I guess I would have to say that multi-culturals are necessary until it is "normal." And now I'm going to go back to my bubble where my sisters and I can enjoy every part of American culture without having thinking about it.

??
 

>>>SHUT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!<<<

Optimist Prime,
I don't think "Randall" did start a flame war, whether or not that was what he was going for. There have been some excellent points raised in this thread and an informative discussion has occurred about the diversity of all GLO's. I haven't noticed anyone getting upset over this exchange of ideas other than you, and you haven't really expressed any.
If it is not your thing, then certainly you don't have to read it, but it seems that you have the biggest problem with the subject, and no real opinion to express other than you don't like the thread.

And that is why there will always be a need for "cultural" Greek Letter Organizations. Not everyone is about "laughing and playing it off", and feeling as if having to be a representative for their specific culture is part of being a brother or sister.

I think a lot of people get hot and bothered when a topic about race or culture is brought up, and they would rather not discuss it. As far as this thread is concerned, everyone seems to be discussing things rather maturely, so it's hardly a "flame war".

i understand all that, but some people seem to focus on a founding date vs. service or the social aspect.

I agree.

GLO's are formed based on the common interests and bonds of their founding members. If the common tie that binds a group of people together is their culture then who are any of you to judge them for that?

I know of some newer social fraternities that have been founded on what some would view as much looser bonds than those held by members of cultural organizations.

People join cultural organizations for many of the same reasons that all of you joined your organization; they felt a sence of belonging and felt at home with the brothers/sisters of the GLO that they met.