Sexism in Greekdom
 

I was watching a recent episode of Real Sports yesterday about the practice of sexism at the Augusta National Golf Club. The NCWO chairwoman Martha Burke called for the appointment of a woman to the all-male membership. This led me to the following thought(s):
1. Can a person of the opposite sex have a legal right to become a member of your sorority/fraternity?
2. If not, does that mean that sexism is practiced by (your) sorority/fraternity?
3. (If so,) do you agree with the practice? Why or why not?

I never really understood how far sexism and sex discrimination goes, so I would really love to hear the answer to those questions. I always thought that if you were a private organization, country club, fraternity, etc., that you had the legal right to set up and maintain your own criteria for membership, including sex. I thought that this was why there are many private schools that are not co-ed. I am interested in knowing if there is a legal way for the opposite sex to gain admittance into these clubs.

Last years Supreme Court ruling dictated that a groups right to free assembly trumps discrimination (The Boys Scouts case). That ruling gives individuals the ability to chose whom that wish to peacefully assemble.

Since the GLO's are considered as private organizations, they have the right to only include members of a certain sex. I think that discrimination on the basis of sex would be determined if an organization were to allocated taxpayer monies. Since private organizations are not given tax dollars, then they could do whatever they want. Moreover, I think that the constitution guarentees our right to freedom of association and assembly. So if a private group only wants one kind of person, then hey...

But, it is illegal for a "private" university to discriminate if it is procuring funds from the government. This is what is getting some of these military schools into trouble.

I am not a lawyer. But I think that discrimination on the basis of sex and race is getting much more difficult to prove. On the basis of "he said" and "she said" is no longer valid.

I'm so sick of this Master's mess. They have the right to admit whoever they want when they want to. And I know it was not too long ago that they didn't admit Blacks either. But hey, it's still a private club and they can accept whoever they want as members. I don't care if they have a nationally televised event there each year. Next you gonna have men trying to legally join AKA. This sickens me. Isn't discrimination like this one of the reasons the D9 founders started our orgs.? We knew at the time that we'd never have a place in their Greek society so we started our own with an emphasis on uplift of our community. So why don't all these women complaining about Augusta National, pool their resources together and start their own exclusive golf club. I mean I feel that it's due time for a women to be admitted as a member of their golf club, but I'm not for forcing them to admit a woman either.

On the Masters' issue
 

I'm also not understanding this. A golf club isn't exactly an essential institution, unlike education or employment. Yes, it may have symbolic meaning, but maybe all that energy should be directed at ensuring equal opportunity in the economic and educational areas.

Just a few thoughts.

Re: On the Masters' issue
 

While I agree that there are far more important things to focus this kind of energy on, it is true that depending on your profession, many many deals are made on the golf course. This is one of the subtle ways that women are cut out of certain business deals. It may not be a make or break kind of thing but it does have professional life implications for some. (Another popular place for deals to be made that is not always talked about are strip clubs:eek: , seriously.)

Shoot, when I was in law school, all of the young Black guys got together and started learning how to play golf. Why? Not cuz they loved the sport, but because they know that around here, that is where the male lawyers do a great deal of networking. Now, even though I may be allowed at the club, doesn't mean I would be nvited to join the fellas for 9 holes of golf and that is why I think there are definitely more important things to focus on at this point. Better to work on the mindset that would exclude me than the club. (Not that i think this is the pro women golfers concern in the first place)

food for thought...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by NUPE4LIFE
Next you gonna have men trying to legally join AKA. This sickens me. Isn't discrimination like this one of the reasons the D9 founders started our orgs.? [/QUOTE

Women could (technically) petition for membership in KAPsi...:rolleyes: ;) So either way wouldn't this be sexism? How would you feel if this were to become an issue? So, keeping that in mind, check out what Kimmie says that's insightful......


Kimmie1913 quote:
While I agree that there are far more important things to focus this kind of energy on, it is true that depending on your profession, many many deals are made on the golf course. This is one of the subtle ways that women are cut out of certain business deals. It may not be a make or break kind of thing but it does have professional life implications for some. (Another popular place for deals to be made that is not always talked about are strip clubs , seriously.)

Those same deals are made with women's orgs as well...So would you consider this to be somewhat of one hand washing the other?
Where's Blackwatch when you need him?
Oh, 1inamillion pm me.... :D

Re: Just a thought...
 

There is nothing immoral in having a private club or organization as you state. It would only be immoral if you had the only means to some life sustaining or life affirming entity. There is nothing immoral about like-minded people of enjoying each others company. If women could not golf elsewhere or had access to meeting or speaking with these movers and shakers in some other legal capacity, then it would be illegal. I am absolutely certain that these Masters members have memberships at other multi-sex clubs (swim, tennis, etc) and I am sure that they sit on boards with women. So to say that women would not have access to powerful men if they are all ensconced at this one club is liberal double-talk. Being denied a meal at a PUBLIC restaurant because of your skin color is far different than not playing golf or hobnobbing on a private golf course

Secondly, despite the all-knowing Dr. Kimbrough and his friend the judge, it would be an execise in judicial activism to demand that women who have engaged in banned and illegal activity be rewarded with membership as a result of their illegal activites. Parenthetically, if a Sweetheart is a member of an Auxillary, aren't they by definition, members of an org designed to aid the main body of the parent org in its activities, without being a full member. The WACS and the WAVES were not full members of the Navy. More legal bullshit to continue to get us to cave in at the mere threat of litigation. Pure and simple legal blackmail. Not that this couldn't happen, because judges overstep their boundaries everyday by making law instead of interpreting it.

I applaud the leaders of Augusta National for not being dictated to by outsiders or public opinion. Its a private club for a reason. They don't exist to serve the public, they exist for themselves and that is all that they have to please.

Re: On the Masters' issue
 

My thoughts exactly! 90% of black people have no want to play this course. Why should this issue take time and energy form some of the main issues that actully pertain to black people. :rolleyes:

and to piggy back
 

Not to mention the BGLO's name or anything but I remember in the late 80's two or three females becoming members of a fraternity because they basically got "pledged" as sweethearts. The young ladies took the fraternity to court and the fraternity had to admit them because apparently they had learned everything a member of the fraternity had to learn. They also took the same physical and mental "hazing" and this was one of the cases that led to most BGLO's banning sweethearts and ultimately "Uptop" pledging. I think they had their pictures in jet with their jackets on and everything.

As far as women not getting admitted to Augusta like I said before "Hold your Guns Augusta." Women collectively have unlimited power and unfortunately are not utiluizing it to their full potential. I went to an HBCU where the student body was made up of 70% women and 30% men yet all of the positions of power for the student body was primarilly comprised of men. From SGA President on down women just did not support one another. Now we have the WNBA damn-near folding as is womens soccer and lastly womens groups going against Hilary Clinton if she runs for office. If women stopped looking for Men to open the doors and make and build your own the world might just be a better place.

Until Womens Workout World or Spellman or Bennet colleges, and the term across the country of Thursday being "ladies night" at every club that I know of, is no longer enforced then exclusionary practices will continue to occur.

DIVINE NINE

There are so many nuances to this argument that it is hard to break it down in such a forum because rebuttal is a serious matter.

There were definitely times when there was and maybe a need for judicial activism. But with an enlightened populace and amoral lawyers willing to challenge anything, judges no longer need to go above and beyond to right societal wrongs on their own.

Of course the Klan is morally wrong!! They preach hate and principles directly against traditional moral authority. Separation of men and women in athletic endeavors or in bonding/fraternal societies, is not immoral. Men and women have different "needs" and bonding mechanisms that lead themselves to separation for certain endeavors.

Yes, Augusta National should have women members, but they should do so on their timetable and with women that they deem fit by their rules. The Masters is not a public event. Not anyone can go. If so, you are a guest and subject to their rules. Yes restaurants are privately owned, but they are a public accomodation, subject to civil laws. Unless it is a private club like VFW or KOC, a restaurant must provide accomodations for the "general" public regardless of race, creed ,sexual orientation, color, or handicap status. A country club is supported by the membership dues of its "members" and therefore does not have to answer to the public for its policies. The part of the public that finds Augusta National offensive does not need to support its golf tournament or its sponsors.

In relation to GLOs....
 

If it says "sorority" or "fraternity" and it's NOT co-ed...you can't join unless you're a woman (for sorority) and a man (for fraternity).

This is a good topic b/c it shows that people need to stop trying to make a legal case out of something that's not a legal case. Find a co-ed organization, or join the GLO for your appropriate gender, and get over it.

For the sake of "political correctness," everyone wants to be included in everything...and no one wants to offend through exclusivity. Grow up and deal with the fact that you can't DO and HAVE everything.

Couldn't have said it better ChaosDST!

Like I said without mentioning anyone's names that already has happened. I want to say it's between three to four women out there with _ _ _ on their chest....hey you might meet one one day

For the Record: NUPE4LIFE has never supported the idea of fraternity or sorority sweethearts. The only sweethearts, per se, recognized by KAPPA ALPHA PSI FRATERNITY, INC. is our KAPPA SILOUHETTES.....wives of Kappa men. Now Mr. Ross, if you think even the idea of our Silouhettes could in the future become the basis of a woman suing for membership, I beg to differ. Kappa men value the relationship between the organization and it's Silouhettes as life partners and as aides to our great fraternity. Again, I do not support sweetheart organizations.

Mr. Ross, you seem to have a negative view of the way the D9 is conducting itself these days. You elude to the fact that we might now survive do to financial and other reasons. Subtract sarcasm: What do you suppose we do in order to ensure our survival?

But realistically women joining a D5 or BLO through Sweetheart Orgs. is a reality as long as there is a Homecoming court. I remeber every year at around Homecoming time hunderds of girls(mostly freshmen) doing almost anything just to be on somebody's court. They even went as far as making a "Ms. Cafeteria staff"(you know I went to HBCU) but of course our Ms. Black and White was the finest of them all!! I mean as long as time has been going on sweethearts have been apart of the collegiate fratenal system and to deny that fact is just plain ignorant. But what it has come down to is that women are not going to be treated like servants or groupies to Frats or Fellowships no longer and they will get what's theirs. brothers better start recognizing and realize that it's not the 60's anymore and women "pledging" to become a sweetheart is not and will not be tolerated.

Re: and to piggy back
 

Wow...I had never heard of that. You learn something new everyday ;)

I have to honestly say that this is one of the dumbest thing I've EVER heard. Okay, so a Que Pearl learns some things that PERHAPS she shouldn't learn just being a sweetheart (whomever taught her those things and/or made that info accessible needs to be put in the Full Nelson and). She's an Omega now? Uh....

What about all those men out there CLAIMING to be in sororities? If a man gets hold of some sacred info and whatever...can he sue DST and make us add him to the roster?

But, regardless of what the courts say...you're NOT a member of a FRATERNITY (that's not co-ed) if you're a chic.
If you THINK you are...you DESERVE to be disrespected (life's lessons are tough).

Shoot, if you IMAGINE you can jump off a bridge and fly...it doesn't mean you can...some things are JUST your imagination.

I won't even GET INTO how I feel about sweethearts. I WILL say that these women sign up to be a sweetheart...and know that it is for a FRATERNITY. A fraternity's (that's NOT co-ed) mission statement probably addresses the fact that it's a group of MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN MEN founded for whatever purposes to encourage whatever values.

If these women go into this expecting to come out of it an actual member of that fraternity...these women aren't too bright.

If you're not too bright...we can't save you, nor should we be responsible for your lack of brain cells. Go lick your wounds...learn your life's lesson...have a Coke and a smile.

It's definitely about political correctness. Let's include people (even when it makes NO sense) because NOT including people will lead to undesirable consequences.

Definitely hold these fraternity men, who acknowledge sweethearts, responsible. I've been saying that even BEFORE I was a Delta. However, holding these fraternity men responsible also means holding these GROWN COLLEGE women responsible. These fraternity men should get sanctioned by their national entities AND these sweethearts should get relinquished from their "duties," a new brain for expecting more than what they paid for, and sent along their merry little way. Sounds like an even split and a done deal.



[COLOR=red]

[B]
A good thought....

However, you have eluded that this issue is deeper than this. To me, are you saying the "bruhs" and "sisterfriends" need to work harder if they want to avoid this happening? That commitment to fraternity/sorority issues should be the main goal instead of focusing on a "pledge" process? Just asking......

The Sweetheart Thing: is a red herring because less than 25% of chapters have them and of those that have them, maybe 10% take it too far. As far as male auxiliries, they were numerous when I was in college. There were MIAKAS for AKA and Delta Mids/Beaux for DST. Just about every Bruh im my chapter was a MID or MIAKA.

LAWSUIT: face it, you can be brought into court for anything these days, right, wrong, or indifferent. It costs a lawyer nothing to throw some ish against the wall a see if it sticks. Political Correctness is not a conservative construct, it is the reality of granting people victim status because things don't go their way. I know that that is the norm in California, but the rest of the country still believes that there needs to be some merit.

What is a FRATERNITY/SORORITY: is it a business, is it a community service organization, or is it a brother/sisterhood? That needs to be decided. You seem to believe it to be all 3 in that order. Personally, where you stand on this decides how you see how your org should act and go forward. Maybe because Delta is a Service Sorority and Alpha considers itself as "Servants to All", community service/business is the most appropriate course. Pledging as a means of membership may mean little. Omega, on the other hand is foremost, a Brotherhood (not at the exclusion of business/community service), as espoused by our motto and how one becomes a brother is very important. Distinctions between financial/active is not as important as whether or not you are a good "Bruh". If we are to be de facto or adjunct social service agencies, lets just eliminate the whole pretense of the Greek label. Why be greek? If the trappings of undergraduate greek life are so petty, pledging, stepping, hanging at the plot, greek week, etc are worthless, eliminate it all together. Why not meld everyone into APO or GSS. Let 100 Black Men take over the frats and NCNW take over the sororities? When we stop being so schizophrenic by trying to be all things to all people and be TRUE to OURSELVES, we can address the problems.

We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose.

Had to chime in on this.
 

Since the word soror means sister, A Service Sorority can be roughly translated to a service sisterhood. What we are is a sisterhood, and what we do is community service, all within the legal infrastructure of a nonprofit corporation (business.) I don't see anything schizophrenic about that.

I am also curious as to how you define a good "bruh" if being a financial, active contributor to the brotherhood is not an important qualification?

I agree about political correctness. It's not a made-up concept to prevent people from empowering themselves. What is and isn't a worthy cause is relative. EXAMPLE: if a drag queen wants to be homecoming queen and is told NO because he is a MAN (whether he feels like one or not)...allowing that person to be homecoming queen from fear of backlash is falling victim to political correctness.



I hear ya. What Omega is to you...and what a GOOD BRUH means to da Bruhs...is something that only YOU (and da Bruhs can know or debate over). I believe that we should stop trying to be all things to all people...that could be another thread though ;)

Quote:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82 What is a FRATERNITY/SORORITY: Omega, on the other hand is foremost, a Brotherhood (not at the exclusion of business/community service), as espoused by our motto and how one becomes a brother is very important. Distinctions between financial/active is not as important as whether or not you are a good "Bruh". If we are to be de facto or adjunct social service agencies, lets just eliminate the whole pretense of the Greek label. Why be greek? If the trappings of undergraduate greek life are so petty, pledging, stepping, hanging at the plot, greek week, etc are worthless, eliminate it all together. Why not meld everyone into APO or GSS. Let 100 Black Men take over the frats and NCNW take over the sororities? When we stop being so schizophrenic by trying to be all things to all people and be TRUE to OURSELVES, we can address the problems.]

I agree emphatically.

Quote:

Originally posted by DoggyStyle82 We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose.

Lawrence, I completely understand your point. However, it's all about how you define "political correctness." My definition ONLY INCLUDES incidents such as the smell-handicapped dude and people who want to sue McDonald's b/c they're fat. I would tell smell dude to wear and mask and get over it. I would tell the McDonald's people to use some self-restraint and stop feeding their asses McDonald's.

This society is such that anything goes b/c NO ONE should be offended or left out of ANYTHING. Well, guess what, we have people with lawsuits against their schools b/c losing in a game of volleyball during gym period made them feel inferior. If there was a giant hand that could go across the country in one swoop and pimp slap these people...and bring them to their senses...that would be great.

Question....
 

Considering the recent rally to legislate frivolous lawsuits, do you think that
(Originally posted by DoggyStyle82)
We can start by acknowledging that single sex organizations are not sexist but rather shaped to their particular purpose?
....which would mean lawsuits of this type is in fact frivolous? :confused:

Re: Had to chime in on this.
 

Thanks for your input, but the schizophrenia that I was referring to was not that. Delta Sigma Theta is a perfect model for what it does and what it attempts to do. But if you were to judge Delta or any other BLGO on its most pressing issues, most of it would center on the sisterhood/brotherhood aspect from which most problems emanate (relations between Grad/UG, Intake, Pledging/Hazing, Real vs. Paper, the resulting lawsuits, Ghosts/Renegade Members, members who are non-financial due to the lack of brother/sisterhood they see after U/G. That is the schizophrenia. Many of us in Grad are so busy about the business, that we forget the "bond". Meetings are simply gatherings for "business associates", and not people who share an un-decipherable bond that can't be understood by the uninitiated. Again, if the goal is to be "an unincorporated business that does community service" why not eliminate undergrads or at least all of the social aspects of Greekdom? Why have intake since the real bonding and work takes place afterward? That is the schizophrenia. Eliminate the pretense and you don't have to worry about who pledged harder, who is paper, who skated, about chapters that are t-shirt wearers, about stepping, strolling, claiming fictitious relationships and bonds. You don't have to worry about any of those things that "real, financial and active members" concern themselves with. Just be about the "real work" of XYZ. If the "real work" of XYX is "community service", eliminate the "bond" that is causing the confusion/schizophrenia, the stepshows, the plots, the parties, homecoming, the rivalries. Let's just be about the "real business" and we will save ourselves all of this wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Secondly, I never minimized being financial and active. That makes a good member, that makes a better member than an unfinancial "good Bruh". A "good Bruh" is someone you ask to stand at your side as you marry your Black Queen. A "good Bruh" is who you ask to to be your child's Godfather, a "good Bruh" will help you without asking questions like "how much? or "how long will it take?" A "good Bruh" will always set you out, provide a crust and a corner, a "good Bruh" will always be an asset to his family, community, and professional endeavors, a "good Bruh" will always represent Omega in its highest light. Now, none of these characteristics are necessitated by being financial or making chapter meeting on time. Considering that I am working on my Life Membership and that I am a Chapter Advisor and former Grad Chapter Basilues, I fight the reclamation fight all the time, I know the value of financial and active members to the success of our programs. But a "Brotherhood" that lasts a lifetime is not defined by financial status, but from the common bond that was forged over some burning hot sands. Now if you want to be my business partner or my fellow laborer in altruistic endeavors, I'll take a good member.

Bro. Lawrence:

Its obvious that the Sweetheart issue is some major campaign of yours. I'll defer to you on the quantity of Sweethearts. The Omega circles that I travel in, I see very few of them compared to my undergad days. In my chapter alone, we had about 60 of them and the Kappas had at least 200 Sweethearts. The bottom line is that adult women cannot be exploited in a volunteer organization without their willing participation. Being a Sweetheart is not a mandatory college experience. The 10% that I referred to is that Brothers were teaching or doing inappropriate things to/with their Sweethearts, not neccessarily something that was worth litigation.

Political Correctness:
Like ChaosDST states, Political Correctness is not about the sensible. Its about coercing others to adhere to a point of view just to make people feel better about themselves, many times to the detriment of others. No one can play dodge ball now because the fat kid gets hit first. The school choir can't sing "Come All Ye Faithful" at the school "Holiday" Program, heck you can't even use the name of the holiday in the program. Dartmouth making Greek organizations coed or they will be banned is Communism. It is forcing people to think and act the way that you want them to because "you" believe that you are right and by default that everyone else is wrong or at minimum, some unevolved fascist. Education is about teaching people alternative viewpoints and theories, not forcing them on you. To use the threat of lawsuit and financial insolvency does not make one's position right.

Isn't it funny that how one was "made" was never such a divisive issue until it was changed wholesale. Can you quote for me the same statistics of ratio for financial/non-financial for each decade. My hunch is that there isn't a tremendous variation or that that variation has been exacerbated by the divisiveness of intake.

As I stated to the esteemed LadyGreek, I never diminished the importance of being financial. In terms of "Brotherhood", being a "good Bruh" is not impacted by one's financial status. If you take my statement in the context in which it was rendered, it was about how Omega values "Brotherhood" , not to the exclusion of financial obligations, but in "brother to brother" relations. Your illustration from the events of 1931 illustrate my point. It was extremely hard for Brothers to be financial during the depression, especially those whose savings were depleted, but when called upon, the "good Bruhs" show up. As an aside, most of our organizations would be in exceptional financial shape if it weren't for lawsuits eating up ourr operating capital. Even if you relaimed 50% of your membership, that is more money for a lawyer to go after. They know just how much of your assets to seek.

Community Service:
We are doing a great deal of community service. For those in Grad chapters that are juggling jobs, families, school, church, and a social life, we are doing a whole lot for a brother/sisterhood. Yes we can always do more. We can do more if we kept more of our money from lawyers also. But the question remains, are we as Black Greeks responsible for every aspect of social service? Are our organizations specifically designed for those tasks or are we brother/sisterhoods that practice altruism. My point that I will beat to death is that if I wanted to belong to an organization dedicated solely to social service, I. will do it through 100 Black Men. What I get with Omega is much more and very different. I don't want to ruin my fraternal experience by so focused on business that I forget my "brotherhood". You can't be all things to all people, nor serve two masters.

Re: Question....
 

I would say they are frivolous. There's a difference between a young lady fighting for admittance into VMI and a young lady fighting for admittance into Omega Psi Phi.

This society has become increasingly ridiculous in its attempts to legitimate faulty and even blasphomous claims.

A big culprit in a lot of this is the ACLU (damn them to hell for taking the fight for civil liberties "too far"...and pardon my French). If anyone regularly watches the Bill O'Reilly Factor on FOX News network...you will know what I'm talking about.


<---still waiting for that giant hand to swoop across AmeriKKKa

This is great!
 

I have to say that to me this is one of the best discussions I have seen on any message board. Two dynamic brothers making their different points intelligently and with great articulation. I'm loving it!

Doggy, thanks for your response to my post. And then to refer to me as esteemed, Lawd I am fanning myself. Lawrence, see this is why you are a good author. Love you both! :D

Re: This is great!
 

I have to agree with you (as usual) Soror!

I love this discussion.

Re: Re: Re: Question....
 

I say that women have a place at VMI just like they would have a place in the military.

People can form an argument for or against anything. Merely having an argument doesn't say anything about credibility. Some things can be deemed foolish based on face value (like a woman in Alpha Phi Alpha). Other things may be deemed foolish after you weight the arguments.

I would say that women have a place at VMI (whether they, as individuals, can withstand the rigor is another issue), but shouldn't attempt to matriculate at an institution such as Moorehouse.

Things that make you go HMMMM......
 

Let me add this is a great discussion!

Let me play the devil's advocate for a moment....
What about segregationism in BGLO's, would you apply the same ideas in regards to persons of white/hispanic/asian etc.
decent ? Does it really exist? Could it be considered as self- chosen segregationism?

I'm for women being admitted as members
 

Women should be admitted as members because there is no golf/country club comparable in status as Augusta that admits women.

As I see it, it is a SEPARATE BUT (UN)EQUAL issue. I think that it would be very difficult for a woman (or group of women) to sue for membership into a male fraternity because there are many comparable sororities that one could pursue membership with as a woman.

One of the arguments women made when pursuing admittance into VMI is that there was no comparable military institution that admitted women. Many existing private schools and organizations that continue to limit membership based on sex are successful (with their continued segregation) because there is a comparable entity that serves the other sex. (ex...Morehouse & Spellman, various fraternity and sororities). I believe that since there is no comparable golf club admitting women, it is only a matter of time that Augusta will admit women into their club.

As a black woman, I am amazed at how many Black men are against women being admitted into this club!!!! If in 2003, African American men were not allowed membership into this golf club, you would be appalled, scream racism, and demand action. Well, enough women are appalled, we are screaming sexism, and we are demanding action.

Just my thoughts,
Rae

Miss Priss posed a very good question that no one has come forward to answer. Would we apply the same standards (i.e Master's) to BGLO segregation? I will start by saying that all D9 organizations have non-black members. Whether it's fully caucasian or the result of a multi-ethnic background, we all have them. However, I would also argue that there is still a culture of being very suspicious when a non-black person wants to pursue membership into our organizations. All this talk about allowing women in because there's no comparable golf club that allows women, sounds like the separate but equal clause that whites used against us. Now I don't think that a white person has ever sued to join one of the D9 organizations, but that day could be coming soon. My opinion is this, as long as a non-black person realizes that one of our main purposes is to uplift the African American community and they have a strong interest in that then I'm totally cool with them. Like I stated before, I'm for a woman being allowed membership at the Masters. I just don't feel that a court of law should force them to admit a woman. But if this thing eventually goes to court, don't be surprised if one of our orgs. are next on the chopping block that is our extremely litigiouis society.

Re: Things that make you go HMMMM......
 

Re: Re: Things that make you go HMMMM......
 

I think the ideals or our organization calls for us to include all people's of different races. How can any D9 org speak of equal rights and equal access for people of all races if we do not open our doors. Now on the issues of women and men in Frats and Sororities let us be clear. Membership for any private organization can be done however in Brown Vs the Board of Ed it was made clear those instutions that are for public use cannot discriminate based on race or gender. THE SERVICES OUR ORGS PROVIDE ARE FOR ALL PEOPLE. But just like the Federal Government not EVERYONE can be a member. Not EVERYONE can run but must meet requirments! I have been to many a D9 Informational where women are like I wish I could be an Alpha, Kappa or Que cause women are ABC and EFG. I laughed it off at times but realize that some of these people may be serious. I have been to parties where sweethearts are almost like the Org the associate with. However many Court Justices and Higher Court Justices are actually in Fraternities and Sororities(BGLO and GLO) and you would be hard pressed to find one that would rule in favor of.

Sphinxpoet

Re: Re: Re: Things that make you go HMMMM......
 

With that being said,

1. Does that mean that BGLO's should take a serious look at becoming affiliated (legally) as a constitutionally bound brotherhood/sisterhood somewhat like the Zetas/Sigmas?

2. Should sororities and fraternity take seriously the notion of becoming "frarorities"?

3. Considering the plight (such as lawsuits, possible bankruptcies, and the lack of financial members) of sororities and fratenities today, should BGLO's reexamine how the culture of the membership effects the longevity of each individual organization/

Re: Re: Re: Re: Things that make you go HMMMM......
 

1. In today's society legally there may be a problem being constuntionally bound. If someone sues Sigma for hazing there is, unfortunatly, a real possibility that someone could sue Zeta! :eek: Because like any other company you go for the parent company and all it's affilates when you sue.

2. No not yet the society is not that far to the left as a whole.

3. Lawsuits are a possibility and it does not have to be hazing. ANY business is capable of being sued at anytime for any reason. Someone is suing P. Diddy for something he was not even around for! You must get proper insurance and proper financial managment in order to counteract these things.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Things that make you go HMMMM......
 

1. NO

2. NO

3. YES