How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

I have recently stumbled across several internet sites that reveal the secrets and rituals of GLOs. I have removed the links and names in an effort to prevent everyone from finding out about our Greek brothers and sisters secrets, however, much of what I read and the comments posted by viewers to those websites leads me to belive much of the information is not true to that GLO's traditions and rituals.

As a proud member of college Greek life I do not like seeing this stuff published. It angers me greatly to think that someone who had a bad experience would publish this information, and that nothing has been or can not be done to stop the spread of private information to the world wide web.

What do you guys & gals think? Is this just their first amendment right to free speech? Or should they be bound to preserve the traditions and history of proud organizations that have given much to our great nation?

I don't know how people can get away with this, but I've wondered if there's a way people could be sued for revealing the secrets. i'm sure people who are initiated have to sign some sort of contract about not revealing ritual.

Tell me about...it is very upsetting to me, being a chi o and all! I haven't been initiated yet (1 more month!!!) but I have absolutely NO desire to see what is on that website....I wouldn't want such a special and meaningful thing ruined. I just hope that fellow greeks have the respect not to read it too. It annoys the hell out of me when smart-a$$ fraternity guys act all big and bad and say they know all of our ritual, I just think that is downright disrespectful. I wish there was something that could be done about that, and I don't know how the whole freedom of speech thing affects it, but I would love for that girl to get in a LOT of trouble for what she did.

I believe that this was discussed ad nauseum a while ago. Try doing a search on it, and I'm sure you'll find a ton of more information and views on the issue.

Many of the threads on it have been deleted, as this one eventually may be (especially if it turns ugly). For example, the mother of the person who does that Chi-O page sometimes flames the board (and gets banned). I'd advise you to take the html for the Sigma Chi page out of your post. I know our Sigma Chi's won't appreciate that.

Swede --

If you want to talk about how such things *anger* you, then you need to remove the links to the sites where people can find out these things!

That's why your first link to the Chi-O crap showed up as *****

Please go back and edit your post to remove the link to the Sigma Chi crap.

Re: How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

I think (1) that anyone reading the info on sites like these should exercise a healthy dose of skepticism about their accuracy, and (2) we shouldn't be helping people find those sites by posting URLs here.

It has nothing to do with the First Amendment -- that merely prohibits the government from abridging free speech rights. And I doubt there are many signed contracts out there where initiates agree not to reveal secrets.

No, I imagine that members of most GLOs took an oath, a solemn promise not to reveal the secrets of our fraternity. The willingness of some people to break that oath by revealing those secrets tells me much more about those people and their lack of honor and integrity than it does about any GLO's ritual.

Re: Re: How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

I think a lot of the garbage on sites like those have proven to be just that, garbage. The stuff is simply not true in many cases.

Now, for our brothers and sisters who are members of the bar, I have a question and would be interested in your opinion.

There is a lot of rumble about "verbal contracts," particularly in the hiring/firing/laying off arena. "My boss has talked to me about attending an industry meeting in September, so he has led me to believe that I'll be employed AT LEAST until that meeting."

My question: Can a sworn oath (fraternal oath) be considered a verbal contract, and can someone who divulges secrets from a closed ritual be sued for revealing that information?

Also, I would suspect that an organization who copyrights it's ritual might have some recourse through the copyright laws.

Of course, the law often doesn't make much sense to the layman, so what do you attorneys think?

Hm...maybe not.

A freely given promise can never be a contract. A contract is by definition an EXCHANGE of promises. It's my very tentative understanding that many GLOs have language in the oath saying that initiates are freely choosing to undertake the obligation. If so, that's called a gratuitous promise, and it's unenforceable. The oath might be an oral contract IF there were a mutual oath of some kind, where the initiate and a representative of the organization each made promises to one another.

However, every state has a law called the statute of frauds. The statute of frauds says that any contract which cannot be completely performed within a year must be in writing, or it is unenforceable. While a promise to carry a secret to your tomb could theoretically be fulfilled within a year if you died within 364 days, in my state, a lifetime promise is within the statute and cannot be enforced unless it's in writing.

Another problem is that in most states, a contract with a minor is voidable. In other words, if you initiate a 17-year-old, and she enters a contract, upon reaching 18 she can repudiate the contract if she chooses.

The last contract possibility I can think of would be a "promissory estoppel" theory. If A makes a gratuitous promise, and B reasonably relies on that promise to his detriment, A may have to compensate B for his loss. But in this case, it would be really, really hard to prove that B (the GLO) suffers a compensable loss when the secret is revealed. Ritual is not like a trade secret, where competitors will gain an advantage if they know it. Further, would a court hold that it was reasonable of the GLO to expect 200,000 intitiates to keep their mouths shut for 65 years apiece? I think most courts would hold that some leakage is to be expected, and that would prevent recovery under a promissory estoppel theory.

You might attempt some kind of tort (injury) claim. Famous people can sue for invasion of privacy if personal information about them is published and their reputation is injured, even if the info is true. If some part of the published ritual is false, and the former initiate knew it was false, there might be a libel claim. If the initiate was trying to get back at specific individuals in the chapter, you could try suing for intentional infliction of emotional distress. In my opinion, any of these would be a Hail-Mary suit.

In short, in some states you might find a lawyer who'd be willing to try, but my money says you'd lose. Ultimately, this is about trust, not law...you have to hope that the people you choose as your brothers/sisters will keep secrets because they promised to not because you can sue them if they don't.

Ivy, J.D.

Wow Ivy, great response :)
Although it's definately making me feel guilty for being on GC when i need to study for my torts and contracts finals!!!!!!!!!

Oh well. It was a thought. Very good reply. Thanks.

They do get away with it...

It's just when they're caught their membership is null and void. The Fraternity will also make the attempt to buy back at a reasonable price their badge and other insignia.

IvySpice's response pretty much sums it up. I would add one thing, and that has to do with copyright protection. While some argument might be made that rituals are protected by copyright (that would be debatable and would depend on specific circumstances related to each individual ritual), the idea of going to court to protect that copyright wouldn't fly. By filing a copyright protection suit, a fraternity or sorority would have to make its rituals public, since the court is a public forum. Going to court to protect the copyright would be contrary to the main goal -- keeping the ritual secret.

Depends what you mean by public. Courts can have semi-private proceedings or protect privacy in other ways. This is going on right now with some al-Qaeda suspects, but it happens more commonly in trade secret cases.

Let's say a startup company steals Coca-Cola's recipe and uses it to sell its own soda. In Coca-Cola's suit against the company, it would have to reveal its recipe to the court in order to prove that the startup was using the same one. Usually, the judge has power to close the courtroom and order that the records be redacted -- which is just a fancy word for black magic marker censoring the secret language.

The judge, law clerks, and opposing counsel would still see the unredacted documents, but they WOULD be bound to be quiet about it; if they revealed anything, they could be disbarred.

The bigger problem I see with a copyright protection suit is that the simple fact of its filing would be public, and that alone would draw lots of attention to the offending web page (or whatever) in the meantime.

Ivy

Someone once told me that a copy of every org's ritual books are in the Library of Congress. I hope that's not true, because then, technically couldn't anyone read about them?

Crystaline, Nope that is just an urban legend.

I think the Sigma Chi one was built by a Sigma Chi who was tired of people asking him. Its all a big haha.

That's a relief. I figure most of those "secrets revealed" sites are just made up stuff anyway.

Again, IvySpice, I agree. When I said "public," I meant pretty much what you said: The documents themselves might very well have to be made public -- I have some doubts that a court would be willing to treat a ritual as a trade secret, although redaction might be a little more likely (especially if one gets a Greek judge). But even if the documents themselves are not made public or are redacted, the lawsuit would still require the fraternity bringing the lawsuit to reveal ritual secrets to the uninitiated (judges, law clerks and other court personnel, and opposing counsel) and would require that fraternity to draw (probably unwanted) attention to itself and its desire to keep its ritual secret.

Re: Re: How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

As I read the discussion, I boil this all down to a sense of honor similar to what MysicCat81 has said above.

Think for a moment about wedding ceremonies. At most all weddings, the bride and groom take a vow in front of everyone to be faithful to one another only. Yet, look at how many people go on to committ adultery. It's as if they saw the wedding and their vows as "just a tradition" or "just a formality".

My opinion? An oath is an oath. It should be kept unless a person is released from it.


.....Kelly :)

Re: Re: Re: How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

I think it should even go a bit further. For example, members who chose to deactivate or members who had their membership revoked. They might feel that they were released from their oath, but I disagree. Regardless if you remain a member, an oath is an oath. Even if you were at odds with the members of your chapter, that doesn't give you the right to betray your organization.

Re: Re: Re: Re: How can people get away with revealing secrets?
 

Oh yes, good point. I wasn't trying to say that members who deactivate or who have their membership revoked are therefore released from their oaths.

You know, on a positive note, think about the hundreds of thousands of people who have been members of a GLO. Of all those people, think about how many have gone out and blabbed. Very few. Overall, I think we have a pretty good track record. Then again, it only takes one person to disclose the secrets that 100,000 other members have kept to themselves....

.....Kelly :)

It is a fallacy. Here is a great website about the myth

http://mcrae.ca/greek/docs/loc.htm

DaffyKD

All the talk on GreekChat lately about ritual and secrecy has made me wonder: do you think one of the reasons behind promoting legacies is the fear that the mother or sister (or whomever) has told the pnm "things" about their ritual? Just a thought...

honeychile

The main reason that GLO's promote legacies is financial. The person that makes the individual a legacy is MUCH more likely to make large contributions.

Not to mention that someone whose legacy doesn't get in is likely to stop making financial contributions if she has in the past. If your legacy has been rejected - after you've been telling her for years how wonderful Mu Mu is - it's like, "Oh, so now my family isn't good enough for this uppity sorority anymore. Well, fine, that's the last they'll see of me." (or substitute "he" and "fraternity" for the guys.)

As for legacies, I think it is a total issue of pride and loyalty to your GLO. Having a son or daughter join your same GLO, especially your very same chapter would definitely be a very happy day for the parent(s).

The financial issue, and rekindled alumni involvement is great also and sort of comes along with the package.

As for what to do about these websites...
Is anyone here a computer hacker? It wouldn't take to much to blow these sites out of the water. Maybe have a group of hackers who are "defenders of the ritual" so to say. Sort of along the same lines as the Ebay "rescuers" who buy their GLO's pins and such so no one outside of their organization will get their hands on them.

Just a thought :) ...

Do you think anyone would admit to that on here? LOL LOL LOL

Sure, the ones who don't really know what they're talking about! :cool:

Also not to mention the fact that at least one of the bigmouths has a big tendency to want to sue anyone who even looks at her cockeyed. If her site got hacked, well..... I'm sure she'd have a few cows! One of my old roommates is in the particular group she was trying to "out", and she told me that all that stuff on there is just fabricated tripe anyway. Let the girl think she's special. It just shows how low some people will go.

it's nothing new.

Even before collegiate fraternities. The masons and other fraternal orders have problems with people trying to reveal their secrets. Most of the time the information was false in hopes of discrediting the order. But they're still goin' strong from what I see, as will Greek orgs!!!

I kinda suspect that some husbands and wives share their rituals... Most of the secrecy problems are probably low-key, not people trying to "out" secrets, but older members who haven't connected with their group for a while...

I've seen websites that supposedly reveal Masonic rituals and secrets...do you all think they're fake like the fraternity/sorority ones? I was just wondering, because it seems like a Masonic ritual book would be easier to get ahold of than one from a fraternity or sorority somehow. I mean, my family has one--it was my grandfather's, but out of respect for the organization I've promised myself I won't look in it--although I will admit it's been tempting at times to satisfy my curiosity ;)!

I'm sure your right. There is probably some degree of "secret revealing" among spouses, biological brothers/sisters, etc. that is no where near as detrimental as a public web page. My parents have been begging me since I initiated to tell me what initiation is like, but my lips are sealed. I think they're afraid I had to swallow a goldfish ! :p

If you have ever seen a Mosonic or LXA Ritual Book, you would not be able to read it!

WHY? Because of the symbols used that has to be learned by heart!

Did I ever tell my ex wife about my Ritual--HELL KNOW!

I had the Ritual equipment at my house at school (Married then).

She asked me if She could look at it!

Very plainly told her if she looked I would Divorce her IMMED! Do You think I was kidding, hell dont kid yourself, I was serious!

As to my Brothers, I do not know of any who have given our secrets! Speaking for My Chapter only but knowing my fellow Brothers, I would say no. But dat be da qustion!!

I think at some point, you have to place the man or woman you want to be with forever over your fraternity/sorority. Don't get me wrong, she shouldn't have asked in the first place. I'm not in a sorority- yet- so I accept that I can't totally understand, but i think that if you really love your wife or husband you wouldn't dream of divorcing him/her for the sake of your fraternity.

Dont kid your self!

You get Married, You Get Divorced, but you are a Member for Life!

And I was was serious as hell!

I still have My Fraternity Brothers! I would love to get into when My ex was dating a Brother and he was the keynote speaker at Founders day!

What a hoot!

Do You as An Alum Keep in touch and give back to your ORG?

Are you a 4-5 yrear member or for life?

I can depend on my Brothers to be of aid. There have been many times when we help each other.

Remember, we are talking 30+ years! Just what the heck do you or will you have if you do not keep in touch with them and be a part still>?

In a perfect world, you would get married once and it'd be for life, just like in a perfect world everyone would be as dedicated to their Org. as you are. I personally think the spouse comes first. My opinion, but I do respect yours.

I agree.

On a side note......
 

Side note from a casual observer on the thread.....

My husband is involved in two private fraternities. I learned right up front there are some things you just don't ask because the answer is MYOB. Not in a bad way, just that there is a boundary that he's not crossing. He'll hand me his old pledge manual to read, and the alumni magazine. But any questions that approach profound secrets or ritual will be met w/ a whole lot of silence.

It was a little frustrating at first--that as husband and wife we are expected to share "everything" and there was a part of him that I will never see. But as a little time went on, I realized that his privacy regarding fraternity ritual gave me the freedom to keep things private too if I wanted. (I know that sounds obvious, but it really was a revelation, especially to a non-Greek.)

It was also some motivation to persue AI. He can't share his secrets with me from fraternity (and even if he did, it would be for nothing because I can not experience the brotherhood)--so the best way for me to understand that side of him is to find sisterhood for myself. So that means some sorority in the future can thank him for their new alumna (I hope!) ;)

I like to think that the way we handled secrecy issues regarding ritual reinforces the integrity of the Greek system, as well as respecting it.

Adrienne
:)

I definately agree that the spousal relationship is far more important than the sisterhood/brotherhood one, although this in no way justifies telling the secrets!!! IMHO, you should deal with an inquisitive non-Greek's questions about secrets constructively ("Hun, I love you, but I took an important oath that is very serious to me. It in no way affects my commitment to you--I took an oath when we got married, and my commitment to keep my GLO's secrets shows that I am able to keep oaths, rather than displaying that I don't trust you") rather than lashing out (WHAT?!?! I'll DIVORCE you if you ask that!!!"). No offense Tom, I love you, but maybe that's why you ARE divorced....

But yeah I think that there are a lot of marital/familial secrecy breeches. For example, in my chapter one sister's mother was a member of an NPC sorority we don't have at my school, and she told me that when she was little her mom told her and her dad some of the secrets that she "vaguely" remembered. I think people end up viewing things like grips, etc, as somewhat quaint, rather than highly meaningful. It's a shame but that's the way it is. :(