Another Black Face Incident, This Time at UVA
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2002Nov19.html

I'm sorry, but I just don't understand how anyone can claim ignorance regarding mocking another race anymore! You got into college, YOU KNOW WHAT RACISM IS! And another thing, how many of these guys do you think listen to hip-hop? Probably a lot, I'm betting!

Arrgg!! :mad: This needs to stop!! Like you said, everyone should know this is racism by now! I showed this article to my fiance, who is a KA, and he just kind of shook his head and said, "You know, with all of the bad stereotypes that some people attach to my fraternity, you would think these guys would have been a little more careful in their behavior."

Shame on these guys. :(

This is a duplicate thread (or maybe the other one is)..

It will probably get more replies in here.

And furthermore......
 

The dumbass-ness goes deeper than that.

The KA Order creed, from the article, demands "reverence to God....and gentlemanly conduct" from Order members.

Exactly HOW does this little stunt exemplify the Orders' ideals? Answer: it doesn't.

If KA National is smart, they'll start being more specific about what constitutes "gentlemanly" and what doesn't. Using this story as an example.

Adrienne (married to a KA brother [EP chapter] who was just as pissed about this incident as everyone else)

First of all, those guys are idiots.

One thing, though, that ticked me off about the article is that it mentioned as (some) length how UVA is a southern school, most of its students are from the south, and how KA is a "southern" fraternity. Um, it's not like the only racist people on earth are from the south, or that everyone in the south is racist. I wish the actions of a few dumb individuals didn't reflect so poorly on the place I call home.

You have a point, Dianne... but isn't it tradition with KA chapters in the South to have "Old South Days" or "Old South Parades" where they celebrate their so-called "southern" heritage? I don't know any KAs from any other part of the world -- I'm just going by what I've seen in my old hometown.

Most eloquent. I couldn't agree more.

I agree the Southern thing shouldn't be played up so big, but all the blackface incidents I can recall have occurred at Southern schools. I can see why a reporter, especially if he or she isn't from the South, would seize on that.

And I also agree they should get their charter pulled, but as far as I know no national has done that yet in response to a blackface incident.

Dumbasses! :rolleyes:

"Old South" is a cotillion at EP chapter. (Purdue U--way to the north of the Mason-Dixon line.) It had **nothing** to do with slavery, or African-Americans, or the mockery thereof.

Basically, everyone dressed according to the custom of the Antebellum period, and made a more specific effort to practice the gentille customs of chivalry that the KA code of conduct is supposed to be based on.

Adrienne (KA wife)
:)

This to me seems a little bit of a stretch that this was directed as a racial slur. However those guys are idoits for not thinking about what the possible reactions would be, that some people would be offended.

This is similar to the Auburn chapter of Beta Theta Pi last year. They were the ones who were in Black face with the Omega Psi Phi jerseys, not the Klan hoods.
As many of you know they were suspended almost immediatly, and I was one of the first to condemn them. However as the facts have come out, the picture we see is one entirely different than what was originally thought. It turns out that the chapters of Beta and Omega Psi Phi are actually on really good terms. The chapters had exchanged jerseys previously, and the Beta Chapter had actually sponsored the Omega Chapter for colonization. The act of dressing as another race was also frequent at Auburn. Now this doesn't mean it was a good idea, but it demonstrates that sometimes the facts get skewed...

To Betarulz......

Within NPHC culture(and rules for some orgs), NO ONE WEARS ANOTHER ORGANIZATIONS LETTERS!!! That is unheard off!! :eek:

Not even an Omega Psi Phi's wife/sweetheart would wear the letters of her significant other. That is why I do not believe that story about the two orgs "exchanging jerseys"....... :rolleyes:

To all.....

Again, someone explain to me why is ir that when portraying someone of color, you must use darkened paint. WHY? WHY? WHY? I am sure that the darkened skinned did not make those men look anymore like Venus and Serena Williams. This mess sickens me, especially when some folks think we (AfAm) should be flattered. :rolleyes: Yeah, whatever!

Most have been, however there was at least one at Wisconsin Whitewater (I think it was the Whitewater campus, but not 100% sure) and I think at least one other Northern university.

"Old South" is a tradition in some (mostly Southern) KA chapters. As adduncan said, it is a cotillion in ante-bellum (or, for the guys, Confederate soldier) attire.

There is no question that KA has both a history and a reputation as a "Southern" fraternity, in many senses of the word, which has led to stereotyping of the Order. (This is why the fraternity has forbidden the display of Confederate flags in chapter houses or at chapter functions, or in connection with the name Kappa Alpha.) That is all the more reason for these guys to have thought about their actions a little more.

Nothing about this surprises me. Everything about it makes me appalled, but NOT ONE BIT surprises or shocks me. Do these college-educated men need to be told that blackface is wrong? Apparently so, or the people of Virginia are wasting taxpayer money on the education of these MORONS.

I laugh at the allegation that the Omegas would allow the Betas to use their shirts. HA! I don't care HOW tight they are...

Trust me when I say that it had everything to do with glamorizing slavery and life in the pre-Civil War South in my neck of the woods. It's sad, really: I'm sure there are some wonderful KAs out there (including your husband), but whenever I meet a KA these days I always view him kind of warily until I get to know him better. I know it's not fair, and I know it's prejudicial, but I'm working to get over it.

Food for thought.....

There were TWO fraternity chapters busted for their stupidity this time.

Is there some reason why everyone is ONLY focusing on KA Order and not scandalizing the other fraternity, which is equally guilty?

Just wondering.

Adrienne
:)

This is disgrace. Seem like we hear about one incident and twenty more pop up right after it.

Because KA is known on A LOT OF campuses (not all!) for their Old South stance. To a lot of people, glamourising the Old South means glamourising slavery and white supremacy. Counting Robert E. Lee as its spiritual founder...

Because almost everyone on this board has a story about seeing KA members wearing very proudly their letters with Confederate Flags. I have never seen a KA shirt without a Confederate Flag on it.

Because KA has been kicked off of at least 5 campuses I know of for doing things which have antagonized members of the minority and enlightened white community.

It's kinda like this...if a fraternity and a math club were both accused of doing the exact same kind of hazing, who would get the most attention from it? You make your own PR. And, for better and for worse, KA has made its own. That said, I have never met a member of KA who has not proven himself a gentleman. I have nothing but good things to say about the individuals I HAVE MET. Zeta Psi is a much less known fraternity, which if I'm not mistaken, is primarily in the North. It was at my school until the membership decided it wanted to go co-ed.

Let me be completely honest. I go to Washington and Lee, the burial place and namesake of Robert E. Lee. And the home of the Alpha chapter of KA. And that chapter has some major, major, major, major, major issues. I don't want to cause any trouble, but I will say that those issues involve things such as hazing, risk management, and a general perception (by other Greeks and the rest of the campus) as very southern and oh-so-imperceptibly-racist. Just as one example, about 4 years ago the chapter was caught using cattle prods on their new members. YES. And they were brought back on campus after a year, maybe two years. As another, a brother who writes a weekly column for the paper wrote that unfortunate as it is his chapter would not consider minority members (!!!). That was about 2-3 weeks ago. KA has a LOT of power and influence here at Washington and Lee and I would think that carries across our region of Virginia (UVA is about an hour and 15 minutes away). I have a very good guess that KA chapters may be similar across Virginia. I sincerely hope that this is not the case across the United States. There are some great aspects of KA here, too. I'm sure I'll get flamed for this but I'm just trying to provide a realistic picture of how I see things here in Virginia...

Edited to add: That said, I by no means am accusing ALL Virginia KA chapters of this behavior, not even the UVA chapter. They obviously need to rethink at least a few of the members' ideas of inclusivity and decorum...

Let's ratchet it down a notch, folks.

My last post was a question, not a declaration of war.

I know as well as you do that KA Order nationally has it's share of problems. Heck, one of the men from my husband's pledge class transferred from Purdue to TX A&M and told horror stories about being discriminated against himself. (He is Jewish, and that allegedly didn't go over too well w/ the Aggie chapter at the time. HOWEVER--national reorganized the chapter in an attempt to *solve* the problem.)

<soapbox>

My last point on the topic is this: you can't fight prejudice by *being* prejudiced. The minute you hold one group more accountable than others for the very same unacceptable behaviour is the minute you lose the battle and perpetuate the problem.

</soapbox>

Adrienne

Okay, you may not believe it, however I know that everyone can say that campus culture varies from place to place. I'm sure that the most often line in all of GC is "It varies from chapter to chapter". I can think of a hundred different things that another chapter of Beta does that we don't do in my chapter. It could range from drinking in the chapter house to having a sleeping dorm, to something as miniscule as calling it a pledge sneak vs pledge skip.

My point is that unless you are a member of that chapter, or have specifically visted that chapter within the last year you can't for certain tell me that exchanging jerseys is an absolute impossibility. The way I found out about the exchanging of jerseys was through the minutes of one of the commitee's at Beta's 163rd Annual Convention this past summer. Unlike many org's Beta Theta Pi is run by the undergraduates and all final say must be given by the delegates at the annual convention. Given that set of circumstances and knowing that this the word of a commitee of my fellow undergrads from throughout the nation, I feel within my bounds of believing it.

With this feeling of trust I presented this to those on GC, so that they can see the similarities, and see that things aren't always what they seem.

Does this mean that I am a racist...absolutely not. I still think that the Auburn Beta's should have thought out the possible consequences as the world has changed. It was stupid for them, just as it was stupid for the those guys at UVA.

In this article I am about to post, it mentions Kappa Kappa Gamma and Kappa Alpha Theta sororities also are being investigated by the Inter-sorority Council because soem of their members attened the party. I wonder if the would get in trouble just for attending. They probably didn't know they guys would show up like that.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/local...lines-virginia

it's a damn shame. you think people would learn by now on what to do and what not to do on something like this. oh, well:(

Being Related to Robert E. Lee, He was not fighting for Slavery, He was fighting for States Rights. This did not mean Slavery!

I am also Related to Andrew Johnson.

Who in the hell is Andrew Johnson one may ask. Well, he is the one who took the Pres. after A Lincoln was killed! Where is He from?

Tennessee!

The whole Civial War was NOT about Slavery, but Economics.

Gawd, I wish People would get this straight.

European Countrys and the Churches were doing this for EONS!

This is the one thing that people remember and misconstrue.

Slavery, yes it is and was bad, but that were the times.

Do we have slaves now?

There is a battle going on in Kansas City right now about what colleation will govern about rebuilding Old Quindaro Ruins, On the Underground Rail Way!

This is Economics and who will control the money! What will ahppen to the Ruins, it will get lost in the shuffle for the $$$$$$!

I see nothing about guys dressing up in Uniforms and acting elegant, it does bother me taht they do really stupid things as they are doing!:(

Personally, I don't have problems with Robert E. Lee. He gave a lot to my school besides just his name, including electives, student government/autonomy, the honor system, the journalism department, the foreign languages department... He was a great man who believed that education could help heal and remake the South. Unfortunately, he was also subject to a lot of the pervasive racism of his time. I don't want to get into historical arguments, but I definately think that we should always strive to rid ourselves of the scourge or racism.

Betarulez
 

Just as a point of clarification... The Blackface Fraternities in QUEStion at Auburn didn't 'exchange' jerseys with any members of the Sigma Delta Chapter of Omega Psi Phi.

The Bruhs were at the University of Alabama for UA Homecoming the weekend after that Halloween. When they got back to the Plains, they heard about the photos that were posted on a party pics dot com website that showed members of said Fraternities in Omega para.

The Bruhs, after viewing the offending photos, wanted to get physical with both said Fraternities... But the Bruhs calmed down enough to call the Alpha Phi Grad House in Birmingham (Omega Grad Chapter of which I'm a member) to contact Bro. George Smith (Founding member of Sigma Delta Chapter [1972] and Basilus of Alpha Phi Grad Chapter at the time). I happened to be at the Frat House at the time of the call.

We, after calling our National Officers about the incident, advised the Bruhs to NOT ENGAGE IN A BRAWL with said Fraternities but to immediately get our Frat shirts from those said Frats.

The Bruhs then went to both houses to retrieve the Omega Para and upon getting the jerseys, the members of both Frats said, when inquired about how they acquired the jerseys, that they purchased them from the AU campus bookstore.

Swamp Thang
Initiated Undergrad at the K/_\ chapter of Omega Psi Phi (1993)
Currently Graduate Advisor for the K/_\ chapter of Omega Psi Phi
Current Member of the Alpha Phi Grad Chapter of Omega Psi Phi

Betarulz -

Sorry but I can guarantee you that Omegas (Or any other NPHC Fraternity/Sorority) would NEVER "exchange jerseys" with another Fraternity. It's simply not done.

I don't want to go into the "Its a Black Thing ..." mode but trust me on this. NPHC members would no sooner let a non-member wear their letters than they would let a non-member view their ritual. It's that serious.

WHAT A STUPID IDIOT!!!!!!!!!!!
 

QUote from the article:

"Does it mean something?" asked Lawren McChesney, 18, of Atlanta, who attended the fraternity party. McChesney said she simply thought they were coming in drag, "like Aunt Jemima."


WHAT THE FUKK???? ARE YOU KIDDING ME??? AUNT JEMIMA IS DRAG?? WHAT????????? I JUST DON'T BELIEVE THIS!!!!!!

OK, it is pretty obvious to me that people think ignorance regarding race relations and racial tensions are over and obsolete! THIS IS PROOF IT ISN'T!

This is proof of:
* a lack of education regarding tolerance
* basic civil rights history
* the history of racism in this country

ACK!!!!! I DON'T BELIEVE THIS GIRL! PLEASE SHUT YOUR MOUTH BEFORE ANY MORE BRAIN CELLS LEAK OUT!

I haven't seen the pictures
 

Ok, Just to play devils advocate, not defending or trying to offend......

But I am wondering, is it really that bad? I mean they went as the two Williams sisters who are tennis stars. Maybe they are tennis fans and just wanted to dress up as their idols?
I had two friends who wore traditional African wedding attire and painted their faces dark for Halloween one year. They weren't making fun of it at all, they really thought the wedding outfits were pretty. So did we. And we did have a friend paint his face white and come as Eminem this year. We all thought it was funny. We didn't get offended.

Free speech? Does this fall under that at all? I dunno....just my thoughts.

The racist, insensitive behavior occurs when the black face is put on. There are some things you just cannot be, let's face it. I wouldn't put on white pancake makeup and go as Alanis Morissette. I can't dress up as her, even though I worship her! They can be Venus or Serena! Put the braids on, the whole thing. But leave off the blackface...DOESN'T ANYONE HERE KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT HISTORY??????????

It's pretty obvious that the answer to your question is that some people do and some don't.

I think that the seemingly naive question, "Does it mean something?" says the same thing. A lot of people simply don't understand the history of the use of blackface.

The thing that troubles me in your post is the use of the term "racist." While it is entirely possible that these idiots meant some amount of disrespect, it is just as possible that they didn't. It's likely, I think, that they didn't understand that their actions were offensive.

If the latter is the case, calling them racist is pretty harsh. Stupid works. So does insensitive -- your other word. I don't even object to calling them morons, which someone else did, I think.

But, with any due respect to any "stupid, insensitive morons," I do find it terribly unfortunate, with all of the recent negative press about blackface, that these incidents continue. Of course, there is some amount of insulation from reality in the college atmosphere -- but this should be pretty hard to miss.

Now, just a quick comment on Robert E. Lee. My earliest study of Civil War confirms what Tom Earp mentioned above. While slavery was the catalist, the real issue was states rights. To put it simply, the South didn't want Washington telling them how to run their affairs -- economic and other. All of my readings about General Lee indicate that his decision to fight for the Confederacy was an agonizing one, and, as a West Point graduate, he nearly chose to stay in the Union Army.

In those days, however, loyalty to your state was more important in many cases than to the country. Obviously, that's changed over the years since -- but it's the way it was back then.

I believe that there was a huge amount of mutual respect, which was confirmed by the civility with which General Grant received Lee's surrender -- allowing the defeated army to retain their sidearms and keep their horses for the return home.

OK, just another DeltAlum digression. I'm finished.

Back in the 80's one of my fraternity brothers showed up for a
Halloween party in his baseball uniform and blackface and said he was
Reggie Jackson. While I didn't think this was a particularly clever
costume idea I have difficulty believing that similar behavior today
could get you kicked out of school, let alone having your whole
chapter lose it's charter.

The Confederate flag issue is more complicated. It's the opposite
side of the debate over the American flag and flag-burning. The First
Amendment sets up a line of reasoning that goes something like this:
In this country there is no such thing as a "blessed iconography" and
by the same token there is no right to ban any form of iconography.
It was a pretty far-out idea 215 years ago and it still is when you
think about it.

Debates over symbolism can go on endlessly. I certainly don't see any
signs of this one ending anytime soon. I do feel bad for the
undergrads at places like UVA, who get hit hard by this issue. After
all, a "teachable moment" is being squandered by heavy-handed
punishment. Not that I'd do it any differently if I were the
administrator, of course. I don't envy anyone who has to sort through
a situation like this and try to "do the right thing".

Is it ok for Michael Jackson to dress in whiteface?
Is Michael Jackson a racist?

That was an irrelevant question.

Not to defend that freakazoid Micheal Jackson, but he does not dress in whiteface. According to him, he bleached his skin lighter, due to a medical condition call Vitaligo, which is a loss of pigmentation in the skin.

Is it okay for me to paint my hiney white and call myself madmax?

Hmm....

Actually, I said the "racist behavior". I didn't call her or them racist specifically, but it certainly falls under a similar category. I wonder how far of a jump would it be to start walking around, calling each other the "n" word to be "in character"? It's beginning of racist behavior. It would bother me equally if someone wore geisha makeup, or walked around holding the corners of their eyes up. It would bother me equally if someone black started "imitating" a Caucasian for kicks. It all falls under the same category of insensitive, but we cannot shy away from the fact that it is, in fact, racist BEHAVIOR.

Point taken on the semantics.

I do think, or at least hope, that the intentions were not racist. My concern is that it's a strong label to apply his behavior in this particular case, whether intentionally or not, to someone none of us has met or knows.

So, I'll continue to grant the benefit of the doubt until it's proven otherwise, and we can respectfully agree to disagree.