Hazing is good
 

I was hazed while pledging. I have alumni come by from the 1940's saying the same thing was done to them. Hazing brings people together by putting them through hardships. Quit your bitching, it's a rite of passage since men's and women's groups have started. A few people being stupid about it throwing people off bridges and dropping off people in the snow without clothes have ruined it for everyone.

Mr. Hammel, will you please close this thread?

It's people like Gaspard that contribute to the negative stereotypes plaguing the Greeks today. "Putting people through hardships" is ridiculous! Personally, I feel that orgs. like yours, Gaspard, ruin it for everyone. It's the bad apples that usually ruin the reputations of many GLOs that promote brother/sisterhood without the hazing.

Again, as Billy said--this thread needs to be closed!

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*I'm an Alpha Gam...Yes I am, Yes I am!*

I do have to say that while I don't agree with the point he's making, it is his opinion that hazing is an acceptable behavior. And as long as he can substaniate his opinion without reducing to lies, name calling, and other ill needed behaviors I don't think we should close the thread simply because we don't agree with his P.O.V.
Why don't we try to educate him and (rationaly and calmly) show him why hazing does not work, and why it never did.

I doubt that the person who posted this is even in a glo. It sounds like some kind of anti-greek fanatic that have been known to come here from time to time. I smell a rat. I'm asking again, Please close this thread.

I believe that we need to stop closing threads because we don't agree with a point of view (as USFstudent said also).

1. Its a freedom of speech infringement. The man is entitled to his opinion and is not being inflammatory.

2. We should not shut out dissenting view points because it leaves us ignorant of opposing views.

3. On the level that the gentleman is making these statements he is NOT incorrect.

Not to get into semantics, but I don't think this is a matter of freedom of speech. This is a private message board. If this were the government coming in and demanding it closed - that would be a violation. And since no one is paying to be here & this being privatly owned - I think (but could be wrong) that anything can get closed down at anytime for any reason.

That being said, I was in a high school sorority and I was hazed horribly. I could never be friendly with the mean girls because I kept thinking about how much fun they had watching me suffer. There is a great rift between hazing and bonding. For instance, we are required to memorize our Symphony. Is that hazing??? No, it didn't cause any emotional hurt or embarrasment. However, we all studied for it together and worked together. We bonded without any of the negative things you are talking about. I vowed that if I was told that I had to do something that I didn't want to, that I would get up and walk out. Well, I am still here! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

It is a fact that being Greek IS NOT about abuse. It is not about having power of others. If anyone joined a GLO for that reason, then they should leave the org. and seek therapy! Being Greek is about sister/brotherhood. It is about fraternity (that is the reason we are called a fraternity)! Being Greek is about having a common bond with people that non-Greeks have difficulty understanding - having a mutual respect and a great deal of love for all Greeks, and a very very close bond to the people in your own GLO. I think every Greek here will agree that the bond is unlike anything else. And this bond has nothing to do with hazing.

We go through enough hardships in life without hazing. I don't need sister to create hardships for me - I just need them to be there to get me through those hardships. That is how we bond.

Allie

James, my reson for asking this to be closed was because theese types of threads ususlly turn into just flames.

Billy Optimist>> If you don't like the thread you don't have to post on it. It's just that simple. You're starting to sound like a fanatic or someone who has a problem with the greek system. Maybe you were one of those guys who couldn't take the heat from pledging and quit???

Kappa Alpha Psi
Nu Iota Spr. 97

...Heard That! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif Now I will go, before I get to showin' my age http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif
Bobby, as usual, your quick wit has me ROTFL!

Soror6

Pledging is good. Hazing is not good.

They are two different things. Pledging operates on love and respect. Hazing operates on power tripping and fear.

Pledging strengthens an organization. Hazing weakens it.

There's no First Amendment issue here.

Hazing has been outlawed by every National Greek organization I'm aware of.

Hazing is against the law.

Hazing's time has long since past. There is no place for it in the Greek community.

Nobody should put up with it.

As Billy said, this could be some kind of setup.

DeltAlum

Personally, my opinion is that this guy is lying because nobody hazed back in the 1940's. In fact the greek system was so out of wack because of the war and stuff, pledging wasn't a required step in joining a fraternity. Hazing is too general of a term to be defined good or bad. Overall it is bad, no one can argue that. Instilling fear and suffering on another individual is not the goal of any fraternity or sorority. Try not to get so fired up and annoyed with these threads so easily guys...

RUgreek

LMAO!! BobbyEarl strikes again!! :-D

Maguire--
No, I am not anti-Greek. I really don't even consider myself to be anti-hazing. I just didn't want this to full of flames and every body just yelling at each other and calling names, instead of having an intellengent conversation.

I'll repost this here as it seems to me it fits.

"I have just a few comments on risk management/ hazing which, of course, you are free to consume/exhume as you desire.
1. I have to believe that Most GLOs were founded originally before most of us were born. (of course I'm only 34)

2. Our founders more than likely found value in their association as friends and sought to strengthen that bond with an organization.

3. They probably put together a very meaningful and solemn ceremony for the initiation of new members.

4. They probably DID NOT include beatings or torment of the soon to be members in their programs.

5. The ceremony and "pledgeship" was probably based on a virtuous or noble precept.

And so it is very likely that if there is a Risk Management/hazing issue in your chapter, it is because somebody has not been properly educated in the history and real tradition of the organization. Tradition is NOT "what happened to me".

I have to guess that if we all truely live by our oaths, risk management issue will be a thing of the past.

Work hard, play hard, go greek or go home..."

and here is the follow-up...

"It just seems to me that we have a choice.
1. We can spend our time whining about all the people who put us down.
2. We can look within at what we can do to asure that they have no reason to put us down.

Folks very rarely bash the organizations that are busy doing good for the community. They have no reason to bash the groups focus on sound principles like scholarship, leadership, fellowship and service to others.

Our GLOs were founded on these principles and we can only prosper if we uphold them.

"it's not what you say, but what you do that people really listen to..."

"

Being a member of a BGLO and I was HAZED--
What is hazing is it going and reading your big sister a bedtime story is it getting is it standing in "LINE"?

Well though it is consider such I would not change my LINE experiences for anything

you know what i find funny. I find it funny that people are advertising about being hazed. let me tell you why, stating that you were hazed you are basically admitting 2 (and probably more) things
1) you would do anything to belong to a group that doesn't care about your well-being
and
2) you have no backbone to stand up for your convictions in how you feel you should be treated. in other words, go get some self confidence. if you need to belong to something that badly that you will allow yourself to get beated for it, you are a sad person and I PITY you.
Don't get me wrong, I am not talking about "hazing" where the actives 'kidnap' you and take you out to eat, or stuff like that. I am refering to real mental, physical, and pyscological abuse.

What is hazing? In todays society making pledges do anything that actives aren't required to do is considered hazing. Its actually pretty simple, You only see the value in something when you have had to work to achieve it. If pledges simply went active they would have no respect for the house which they are members. Non-physically threatening requirements for activation, which some would consider hazing, are slowly slipping away. Brothers who slide through pledgeship can best be described as leeches, those who benefit from the fraternity without helping promote its greatness

I was never hazed so I cannot identify with Lil_G. But I always wondered if you could be initiated and try to change the chapter. You can love your organization and find out that you dislike your chapter, sometimes chapters become zealous about hazing. We have chapters on our campus that haze and try to cover it up, but eventually a New Member quits and spreads it all over campus and I always wonder why not try to change the behavior. Bad leadershp can ruin a chapter so, do you think it would be possible to change the hazing and by doing so helping the National Organization?
By the way I think any type of hazing is crazy and I don't think New Members have to earn their membership through hazing. I was never hazed and feel I deserve my membership beacuse I worked at achieving our organization's goals and standards for a new member.

What is Depledging???

I think that Billy Optimist was right. This
Gaspard, who ever he is, opens a controversial thread and then disappears. You'd think if he had such strong convictions that he decided to open a thread on the subject, he'd at least attempt to support what he's saying and rebut other peoples' posts. I've never seen that profile name in any other forum. It's just some s**t disturber who is out to cause problems. If I'm wrong Gaspard, please feel free to do me and every one else who has posted responses to your thread the pleasure of responding to your critics.
And for those of you who got pleasure out of being hazed, no child who was a victim to abuse by their parents is going to claim (at least I hope not) that it made them stronger adults and more bonded to and respectful of their parents. My sisters are my family. I see it as the same thing.

Leslie

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Gamma Phi Beta
University of Toronto
Alpha Alpha

doesn't Gaspard mean something in French?


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Once in every lifetime, you'll know what life is. Oh I need you, you need me, oh my darling, don't you see? The Young Ones. Darling we're The Young Ones. The Young Ones. Shouldn't be afraid! To live. To love. There's a song to be sung. 'Cause we may not be The Young Ones for very long!!!

I think you're thinking of Gaspe, which is a place in northern Quebec.
I'm going to look it up and get back to you. I studied french for 10 years (the fun of being Canadian!) and never heard the word....either way, he's a fraud.

Oh. Okay thanks. Maybe it just reminds me of the word b@st@rd.

LOL
I was going to write back that you probably had the word mistaken for b*s*ard. Perhaps he's from the gaspe. That way the name is a nice combo. I did look it up tho. No such word. At least in french anyway. Either way, we know he's not very strong in his beliefs seeing as how he hasn't made one attempt to support them. My guess, he's a columnist from somewhere who is trying to find out how rampant hazing still is.
Don't fall into the trap. Because ultimately, this guy is out there to cause trouble. Don't feed into it. And certainly refrain from admitting that you subjected yourself to abuse at the hands of your 'brothers' or 'sisters', for your sake and for ours.

Leslie


[This message has been edited by gphi2k (edited February 14, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by gphi2k (edited February 14, 2001).]

Do you really know the results of hazing gaspard? I was watching the 10:00 news Tues. nite in bed and the news station I watch had the opening item and went on and on about the SAE chapter at Rockhurst U. In K.C. They were kicked off of campus. I wrote a scathing E-M to the station about how all bad Greek News I Front Page and all of the good we do is not reported or relegated to the back.!!!! I was pissed!! The news editor sent me an E-M back saying they had a staff meeting and agreed with me about the length of spot. I do not condone hazing at all and one of thier pledges was placed in the hospital. I am a LXA and we have a no hazing policy and I like it that way as when I started the local 35 years ago that was my policy! What the punishment is that while not all may have been in on the hazing, they all suffer as they are off campus and the charter has been pulled. They cannot come back on campus for 3 years. Does that change your mind!! I hope so!!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

I know I've heard that word before. I'll look it up. It sounds French though. At least to me. LOL, oh well.

I agree with Gaspard. Most of you all have NO idea what REAL Brotherhood is or can be. You cannot take complete strangers and make he best lifelong friendships in 8-10 weeks without calculated induced stress. Look at the people that have gone to war together, they have some of the strongest bonds there are in life. Someone earlier, in another thread suggested that the Brotherhood in their chapter was like a marriage. I agree, its what I am accustomed too. Brotherhood in my chapter is just like that. It's a life long bond that takes precedent too everything else you do in life. My wife married me, but she also married my Fraternity. My Fraternity Brothers are now her brother-in-laws. It was a condition of our relationship. If your brotherhood is not this deep, then you have NO idea what we are talking about. You cannot explain the ocean to someone who has never seen it.

Please, tell me you are JOKING!!! Cause if you're trying to tell me that you think joining a group of men you call brothers, you call friends, is a bond that is only formed by the stress enduced practice of hazing then I say you are a complete masochist. You compare it to war?!? To people who have been in compat and fought for their lives?? COMMON!!! People go to war to fight for a cause. Their bond is formed in their attempt to achieve this cause. The don't go to war to form bonds. It's a bi-product of their common goal. You are comparing the importance of having men in a fraternity accept you as their brother to fighting for your country? You're quite the patriot. If it takes war like conditions to bring you closer to your 'brothers', then you are a masochist. If that's what it takes to gain YOUR committment and whole hearted brotherhood, then you don't know what REAL brotherhood is really all about.

Leslie


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Gamma Phi Beta
University of Toronto
Alpha Alpha

[This message has been edited by gphi2k (edited February 15, 2001).]

Okay Billy Optimist, I finally got our answer. I checked out Gaspard's icq profile (cause he has his number listed in his profile). He's a 19 year old guy whose name is Dustin Gaspard. So it's just his last name. That's all. He's probably some neophyte who is trying to justify the fact he put himself through hell to join his frat. Kinda like, if he says it enough, he may actually make himself believe it.

Leslie



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Gamma Phi Beta
University of Toronto
Alpha Alpha

gphi2k-

Thank you so much. I've been going through lots of dictionaries and nothing came up. I guess that explains it though. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif Anyway, he still hasn't been back.

"Their bond is formed in their attempt to achieve this cause."

That is my point exactly! A heightened level of Brotherhood is created during the struggle. Many of the methods that my chapter uses have roots in the military, however I am not comparing it with going to war. It is a parallel, cause and effect. While war has a very different struggle, it is my contention that it is the struggle that creates those bonds. Not happy face meetings that stink of political correctness. Many GLO's cannot even call it pledging anymore. We have never, in over 30 years (in my chapter), harmed a pledge. We have never had any physical abuse. We have never had any alcohol present during any educational activity. Everything that we do to or with a pledge class has a lesson. Yes, during my pledge period there were times when I though the world was ending. Every time we thought we hit bottom, we would be taken a little deeper. Deeper than any of us thought we would or could ever go. When it was over, it was not down that we were going, but deeper into a Brotherhood that few will ever know.

Do you have any secrets from your brothers? Answer truthfully. I do not. Brotherhood is where I can go to have any wound healed. It is a very special place, not like any other I have been too. Certainly it is the reason that I feel so strongly about my Brothers, my Chapter, and my chosen way of Life.

I do not degrade you fro the way your chapter chooses to operate. My point here is that some GLO's are still doing it the way its always been and doing so successfully. I also realize that there are those that will say that we should not exist anymore if we cannot conform to there ways. If we did conform, we would not exist.

And going to college isn't enough stress?

I've made lifelong friendships even outside of my sorority. And I have lifelong sisters and didn't have to go through "calculated induced stress". My sisters and I are proof that IT CAN HAPPEN...so N2, I don't know how your statement could possibly be true!



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*I'm an Alpha Gam...Yes I am, Yes I am!*

All I can say to that is, wow, I'm jealous. I wish I could have gone to hell to form the close bonds I formed without having to go to hell. I wish I had taken your route. It sounds so much more rewarding. (please, not extreme sarcasm in EVERY word).

Leslie

You so craaaaazy....LMAO! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

soror6

I've said this before, but I want to say it again. I agree that people bond through hardship. However, life is hard as it is. I bond with my sisters when they help me through the hard times - not if they create the hard times.

Allie

N2 is obviously a bit delusional. If I had to marry a boyfriend's fraternity, I think I'd not like that too much LOL. I wouldn't expect him to marry my sorority, that's for sure.

N2, if you can provide one instance of hazing that take you into these awful depths of hell and can show me the benefit, I may believe you, but up until now, you've proven nothing except that low self-esteem will allow you to let people do whatever they like to you until they allow you into their group.

I didn't read all the posts, I admit, but I noticed the mention of "lack of hazing" = "lack of hardship" = "lack of bonding"

However, just because you're not being hazed doesn't mean that the time you spend earning your letters isn't VERY difficult and challenging . . .