Where is the Lord any of this people!
 

First, I would like to start off by saying hello to all, and KAPsi if you are out there what's up. What's sup to all greeks! I just would like to know when will the slave mentality of thinking will go away? I can see doing some stuff to people, but laying a hand on someone else is totally out of the questions. Our ancestors had enough of that, and we should have learned from that. And where the Lord in any of this? No one has the right to beat on a CHILD OF GOD. I pledge, but and I did stuff, and I am not considered paper, but at the same time I was tried and that was the last time that happened. I don't believe in paddling or any other physical abuse. Only mental things. God didnt' create us so we could just haze folks. And being in a organization should not be based on hazing but the Loed first. And think about, the FOUNDERS for all of the frats and sorrors did not get hazed of any kind due to the fact that they were the founders. Why make it be about something that it is not!

P.S. I will you all the best of success in Life and keep the Lord first in all that you do.

[This message has been edited by LIGHT #3 (edited October 07, 2000).]

If we read the Bible, we can see that the very first commandment says "Do not worship any god before me." The 10 Commandments also contain the statement that we should not make an idol for ourselves to worship. Therefore, any type of organization which involves idols (such as Minerva or Demeter), is evil. Greek organizations that have a goddess or god as their patron, are bad because this type of thing promote the worshipping of FALSE GODS.

A true Christian would not continue to participate in a club or organization that has a false god as its symbol/patron/mentor.


If these organizations' rituals were brought out into the open, observed and researched, then it would help us put an end to their evilness.
I posted this on another thread- but I did want to reply to your writing. I don't see where the Lord is in of these types of organizations- if they are beating on people- how horrible!!!

I know that I have heard about what they did to Becky and I think that it's good that she is standing up against Chi Omega. The members of that Sigma Theta chapter may be using this board as a place to whine, but they will learn soon, that their national doesn't care about them anymore for what they did to that girl. The public will not react to well to the issue either.

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other post-

You know that ancient temple... the one where the Eleusinian Mysteries (Demeter's Cult) were held (at Eleusis)? It was destroyed by the Christians. Any true Christian would know, deep inside their heart that an organization that involves strange rituals and false gods is evil.

God is a loving god and if we turn away from these evil organizations and denounce them, he will help free us from their binds.

God is a Judge, and he judges these organizations, and those who are involved with them. Isaiah 33:22

As Christians, we need to team up together and fight against wrong doings- I believe that many of these GLOs are founded on evil principles.

I hope that Chi Omega is the only Greek organization that does this kind of thing. Am I wrong?

Hey- both of you really give me a new outlook on greek organizations. A lot of the messages I have read on this board are horrible!

To anyone interested
I would just like to clear up that I am not a Chi Omega, but a first year college gal (at Montgomery JC in Conroe, Tx) who will be transfering to SHSU & rushing this spring. I have been catholic all of my life & spent many years in catholic school, but see no problem with greek organizations. You said that Christians should team up so here I am. I just want to say that I agree with the fact that hazing should not be apart of the greek system or any other, but I have faced the fact that is IS.

I played sports & was apart of clubs at Catholic schools for half of my life. There was hazing & yes we had our own strange rituals. This was all just a part of being a member of the team or organization. I am not proud of this (hazing), but it happens. Hazing & rituals are everywhere, & in most organizations, so why are they just horrible when they are apart of greek orgs?

Allison

P.S. I do not wish to start anything about the SHSU situation, I just wanted to set the record straight. I am only interested in talking about the topic originally posted!

Thank You!

Just a note, not all greek members are christians. There are many greeks out there of different faiths (including myself), keep that in mind. We don't all follow or believe in the Bible, and a lot of greek organizations don't require that we do.

mgdzkm433
You are absolutely correct. Forgive my post's onesidedness, but I'm not well educated in many other religions besides my own & another which I have grown up surrounded by. Eventhough this thread has taken on the 'Christian theme'I'd love to hear everyone's opinion on it!
Allison

If they are "so horrible" then don't read them. We got your number Carol C. Don't play the Donna Reed card with us. Aint gonna work. Yet again, GO AWAY.

[b][QUOTE]Originally posted by virtuosity:
If we read the Bible, we can see that the very first commandment says "Do not worship any god before me."

Please humor me Virtuosity/Fred:

How do you equate joining a Greek Letter Organization with worship? Do members of Greek Letter Organizations pray to the leaders of such organizations? Is there some kind of Greek afterlife?

I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but most of the information in your post was pulled out of your a$$. The only information that didn't is of course, the scriptures.


Peace and Blessings......

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We often give our enemies the means for our own destruction.

Aesop c550 BC

[quote]Originally posted by MIDWESTDIVA:
[b]

Quote:

Originally posted by virtuosity: If we read the Bible, we can see that the very first commandment says "Do not worship any god before me." Please humor me Virtuosity/Fred: How do you equate joining a Greek Letter Organization with worship? Do members of Greek Letter Organizations pray to the leaders of such organizations? Is there some kind of Greek afterlife? I'm sorry to have to be the one to tell you this, but most of the information in your post was pulled out of your a$$. The only information that didn't is of course, the scriptures. Peace and Blessings......

Yah' know- I feel a deep sense of sorrow for you. I'm sorry that you continue to harass this nice man- maybe someday you will realize what life is all about and then, MAYBE you'll think for yourself and know that their is more out there.

I am not Fred Hatchett- thanks for the compliment, though.

Allison-
Aren't you one of the ones who were interested in witchcraft? Just thought I'd seen your name somewhere else on here...

Anyways... it surprises me that you are not one of the "ex-members" of the Sigma Theta chapter of Chi Omega. How did you know about each and every link concerning Becky's case? It seems almost as if there was a little bit of malicious intent in your other post. Did you know that the accusations, regarding Becky's mother (Huntsville Item) are false?

The Huntsville newspaper is in serious trouble with Becky's attorney right now... and so is the "Today@Sam" board. I just wanted to let you know a little bit from someone who is more in tune as to what is going on with the Sam Houston situation.

[b][QUOTE]Originally posted by virtuosity:
Yah' know- I feel a deep sense of sorrow for you. I'm sorry that you continue to harass this nice man- maybe someday you will realize what life is all about and then, MAYBE you'll think for yourself and know that their is more out there.

I am not Fred Hatchett- thanks for the compliment, though.

You still haven't answered my questions. How do you equate joining a Greek Letter organization with worship? The Webster's dictionary definition of worship is:

worship-(verb tense)to adore, to pay divine honors to;

How do you know that members of Greek Letter organizations worship the organization itself? Have you ever been a member of an organization that does this?

I realize that the remark I made in my first post was crude and for that I apologize. I am actually giving you an opportunity here to explain yourself, because you are not making sense. You are throwing accusations around but what facts do you have to back them up? Maybe you are using the term "worship" too loosely. I don't personally know anyone who pays divine honors to an organization.

Dear virtuosity -
Thank you for taking a post in which LIGHT #3 attempted to initiate a discussion about how hazing is in apparent conflict with Judeo-Christian ethics,

and turning it into your own soapbox. Not everyone on this board wants to talk about you and your problems. Please do not infiltrate EVERY THREAD here at GreekChat. If you have nothing else to contribute, do us all a favor and keep your opinions in the appropriate place (i.e. your own website).

I also believe that you and your myriad "names" are Becky Smith. I believe that if you have any confidence in yourself, or any belief that your convictions are right and true,

then you will quit hiding behind "pseudonyms" and represent yourself for who you are.

[This message has been edited by Texas Alum (edited October 11, 2000).]

HMMM...It seems that no matter how many times I repeat myself on this topic & how many times I tell myself I am done, I once again feel the need to clear things up. This post is not made out of anger. I just wish to, once agian inform, & chuckle about how speaking my mind has gotten me labeled a malacious, hazing, Ex-Chi Omega witch http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

virtuosity
As I have said before, if everyone would READ the posts before replying to them, we would save much time & space on this board. I believe I stated that "I have always been interested in the different types of religions & beliefs". I grew up in a very sheltered catholic school system. I was not informed about different religions & feel that since it is such a serious issue (to me) I should be as knowledgable on EVERY one out there as I possible can. It says alot that mgdzkm433 went out there & did the reasearch & found something that suited her better than the beliefs placed on her by her parents. I don't believe I know anyone with that kind of initiative & drive. And honestly, if she had combined the beliefs from Christianity & Judaism, or Christianity & Hinduism, etc. we would not even be discussing this.

As for being a member of Chi Omega, I have told you my story & revealed more about myself than I ever intended to.

"How did you know about each and every link concerning Becky's case?": How else...I opened my eyes to what the local media, local internet services, & local papers were throwing at me. Afterall:
- It is my right, as a citizen of this country to know the story.
- It is my right, as a future SHSU student to know the story.
- It is my right as a spring rushee to know the story.
- It is my right to know the story, when my cousin has recently seen a Chi Omega from this chaper.
- It is my right to know the story, so I know who, exactly, I met & was associating with this past Bid Day.

Yes you will obviously know more about the case than I will because you are right in the middle of it. But you can not expect to come forward with your story & not have you & your daughter's name eventually plastered across the the television screen or put in the headlines.

Ya'll came forward, so why get angry when I follow the story? Isn't that why ya'll went to the media, so EVERYONE would know?


Allison


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A mistake at least proves that somebody stopped talking long enough to do something.
~ Anonymous

Q-TPie, and to whomever else it may concern:

Witchcraft was a religoin, or grew out of religion in Norhtern and Western Europe. They were destroyed by Christians because they were worshiping "false gods" or whatever. I hope these same Christians don't try to destroy any greek orgs, but it never hurts to learn from the past.

Q-TPie, and to whomever else it may concern:
Witchcraft was a religoin, or grew out of religion in Norhtern and Western Europe. They were destroyed by Christians because they were worshiping "false gods" or whatever. I hope these same Christians don't try to destroy any greek orgs, but it never hurts to learn from the past.

YoungOne,

Actually, witchcraft is STILL a religion in the form of pagan practices. Many Many people still practice witchcraft and Wicca--it's main source of practice--is the fastest growing religion in North America.

Witchcraft falls under the umbrella term 'Paganism'. Paganism consists of several different religions including: Shamanism, Norse, Wicca, Witchcraft, Celtic/Faerie Magick, VooDoo, Druids, and many others. Pagan Practices are actually the oldest known religion known to man. All religions are based from it. Paganism was here long before Christianity. Witches first were recognized as such while many peoples were still secluded in tribes. Each tribe or community had a 'medicine man/woman' or a community 'witch' that they would go to to find out information (prophecies) or for healing. Witches mostly made herbal remedies to help with illness. Because they knew this trade, they were considered magickal. They did spells to see the future or to help a community member. They also believed in many gods/goddesses, as did the people. As tribes moved and settled in areas, the tribes would learn from each other and use each other's knowledge. Christianity began to form, and Christians had to meet in seclusion and secret because they were, at that time, the minority. As Christianity grew, many Christians still practiced Paganism in their homes and attened Christian churches at various times. This was very common. The Church had a hard time competing with the Pagan practices because frankly--they were more fun. They wanted to draw the people to them, and only them--which would give them power. This was the beginning of the corupt churches in Europe and England. More people wanted to be involved in Paganism because it was a practice that allowed them to do many things without being condemned. The Church then came up with their plan, declared paganism evil and anything pagan was of the 'devil'(which most pagans don't believe that the 'devil' exists, however during that time, people were practicing both or only one). This scared many people into converting totally to Christian ways. Those who did not convert were usually tortured and killed--as you know many were burned at the stake. Also, the church began to come up with rules or ideas of how to know if someone was a witch. Simple things began to be declared a pagan ritual item. Women mostly were the culprits because at that time, women were still 'evil' in their own sense. Basic household items, used everyday, became items only a witch would aquire. Innocent--CHRISTIAN--women were even put to death because the would own such items as a broom, a culdron, herbs. These were all common items for every woman because 1) brooms were used to sweep the house 2) culdrons were used to cook 3) herbs were used for food. The Church would send people out on witch hunts, they even built holding houses just for witches where they would torture anyone who was declared a witch--later on to be killed. Even through these times, pagan practices still remained in tact--also very secretive which is why we don't know much about older magick and witchcraft. When the Puritins crossed the Atlantic and came to America, they brought with them their fear of witches into Salem. The rest is history. Even through all the hard times, pagan practices still exist and are well and thriving to this day--inculding witchcraft. Many people believe that it is a thing of the past, but they are wrong, witches are everywhere and they are growing in numbers everyday.

I agree that we have to keep in mind that many of our organizations were founded on Christian principles. I want us to also know that putting bruises on people and sending folks to the hospital are NOT examples of pledging. Those are examples of "haze-happiness". As I said in another post, there's a difference b/w hazing and pledging. I want HBGLOs to acknowledge the difference and behave accordingly. It is completely possible to adhere to Christian principles and pledge.

Hootie, you are eloquent as always, but don't waste your time. Some people just want to expend all their energy on hatred and, sadly, no argument is going to bring them around.

By the way, I have two daughters whom I love more than life itself. If they want to pledge Chi Omega when they get to college, it will break my DeeZee heart, but I will be proud nonetheless that they have joined a sisterhood that I respect as much as I do my own.

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~@~Tracy~@~
Proud to be Delta-Z :-)

[This message has been edited by KillarneyRose (edited April 30, 2001).]

I think it's great that we're bringing up relevant old topics, but keep an eye on the dates when replying.
Just a friendly reminder from the folks here at Greekchat.com
Heidi

I think there are some valid points in the room questioning the rites of hazing.

Good or bad, I hope everyone realizes that hazing is not just a mindless act of brutality. It is not intended to cause pain or anguish. Hazing is designed to impress some ideal upon on initiate. Those ideals are the foundation of the orginization's beliefs. Almost all hazing episodes help the initiate to realize these beliefs.

For instance, physical strife can be an attmept to impress humbleness or humility. It can be used to demonstrate that every person has limits and that those limits can be exceeded by using effort. These are called GOALS.

Mental challenges are commonly used to impress the implications of making a wrong decision, or making one too quickly. Things need to be more thought out.

Remember, EVERY member of an orginization had to participate in THE SAME activities upon their initiation, often times even more tedious or less "politically correct" than the ones currently utilized.

In response to the question "where is the lord?", I would like to publicize my philosophy. Not all of these orginizations are built upon christian philosophy and those that think that is wrong should try to look beyond their noses and realize that there is a world around them. Fraternities are designed to better a persons charecter and traits, not be an exclusive place to party (that may be a fringe benefit depending how you look at it) There are organizations that build their philosophies upon religion, and they are called chruches. Remember, you may believe in God and Christ as much as someone else may not believe. Use your own judgement to determing who can say that who is wrong. You may view this in a whole new light. If you can't, then try learning a little tolerance. You will be dealing with non-believers your whole life and if you live your life thinking that everyone else is damned for not believing what you do, then you are the one who will be screwed in the end. Please give those that differ in opinion from yours the room to express their beliefs, as you believe they should give to you. Those of you out there that a burning red from my words are an ideal example of this.

One member of my house had a particularly would have had a hard time dealing with a particular part of our ritual (this won't be disclosed, for obvious reasons) but he handled it well. HE AVOIDED IT! He discussed his disbelief with the officers and a solution was found to the ritual problem before it even started. NO HOUSE is going to be so abruptly hard on someone as to make them feal uncomfortable being there. That defeats the entire purpose. If you believe that you may have to do something you don't believe in (and I mean completely disagree with, not just be afraid of) TALK to the members about this. There is bound to exist a solution. If they refuse to yield or regard your beliefs, then simply remove yourself from the presence. No deal is final until the contract is signed. If you don't want to leave, then understand that your priorities place being a member higher than upholding your beliefs, you be the judge of your own self. NEVER JOIN A HOUSE YOU DO NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH!!! Some of your best (and I mean not only fun, but experiences of growing up and developing charecter) times will be spent with your fellow members. They should be looked upon fondly. Regret is part of growing up, understand that you did your best to cope with the situation and learn from your mistakes. No orginization is going to be so blind to the difference of beliefs people have. If they are, then they will not be around long anyway. Also remember the common christian belief that no one but god can judge, so what makes you think that you can?

On another topic, a fraternity's ritual is one of tradition and respect. These are not appropriate to open to the public. All initiates are decided upon by whether or not the members believe they can and will uphold the same values of the orginization long before they see the ritual and rituals are written to impress these ideals in the individual and it will last a lifetime. They are private and not open to judgement by others (remember what I said before) much like pieces of your life. Why does this need to be publicized? I once heard an alumni say that the secrets of the fraternity like the handshake and passwords are not what really matter. What really mattered to him were the experiences and lessons that he learned from the others. Everyone has something to offer everyone else. That is what makes it great. The things you learn here will be things that you will learn nowhere else and that is what the bond truly is. I couldn't agree more.

Before I hear someone say "well if they don't matter, than tell us what they are!!", I will make it abundantly clear that I will not disclose that. People take an oath not to reveal the secrets of the house or what goes on in ritual, no matter how trivial they may appear to be. Ritual is a private ceremony. Beyond that, I took an oath, like everyone else has, to confine the secrets of the house within the house. To do so would violate my integrity, that is certainly something I will NOT do. Just wanted to address that issue before it was even brought up.

I must concede that I do not have the right to judge, and I don't think that anyone has, even god. We all live by our beliefs, and I will live by mine, but I share the belief that I have to tolerate those that I think are wrong and not see them as anything other than equal with myself.

One final note, I have to point out the audacity of those who believe rituals are evil and should be brought upon the public's eye. I am sick and tired of people who know nothing about these societies tearing into them like so many knives into flesh. Let he who hath not sinned cast the first stone. One thing I do not have tolerance for are those who have no tolerance for others; who believe it is their duty to expose what they think is evil. While your at it, let me dig a little into your life and point out all your flaws and ignorances. Let's see who REALLY has the problem. If this describes you, then piss off. I have no time to deal with people who are not willing to view their own flaws but are so eager to point out those of others.

By all means, I am open to any and all constructive criticisms, comments, and questions. My email address is seand_isu@yahoo.com and I look forward to hearing from anyone who shares a different opinion or the same.

Later,
Sean

Hazing IS 'just a mindless act of brutality'. Pledging 'is designed to impress some ideal upon on initiate. Those ideals are the foundation of the organization's beliefs.'

Many of the problems we face is because people confuse the two. PLEDGING DOES NOT EQUAL HAZING.



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MCCOYRED
Mu Psi '86
BaltCo Alumnae

Dynamic...Salient...Temperate...Since 1913

Wow! Upon reading this thread, I am at a lose for words Ripleys Beleive It Or Not! Most Greek Organizations are founded in the beleif of a God. Whether it be the one I was taught to beleive or another!
It amazes me that when you look at ALL of the religions, there is a God. Maybe by a different Name but a God! So be it!
We started some where, but were any of the people who write about it really there? Hell No. Just words passed down to the youngsters who changed it to suit their ways and political structures!
I know My Brother LXA has the same feeling I do and that is all that counts when it counts about my Brothers, no matter what religion and race!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

"Hellenic Culture and Christian Ideals"

Chi Omega's Open Motto

If you'll REALLY knew our ritual (but you never will-unless you're initiated), you would realize what we were founded...hmm, let me think for a sec - oh, wait...okay...could it be Christian values? Ding-Ding-Ding!!! Yay! I won!!!

Okay, I'm a Christian (Catholic, to be percise). And I'm also in charge of initiations....wooo - and I also have morals and values...even scarier - huh?! But I'm a Christian before a Chi O and I would never praise anything before God, no one worships Demeter, the owl, or any other symbols and such of our sorority. That is ridiculous! I praise God and worship him also! But if I choose to be a part of an org. that is my choice and as long as I know I am not compromising my beliefs or standards, then more power to me! Rituals are just something shared amongst members to unify them - and just that. Nothing More. I'm in charge of our new members and I make damn sure, there'll never be hazed while in Chi Omega. I never was and to me, that doesn't promote sisterhood (brotherhood), it just fosters negativity and bad feelings. I feel sorry for Kristen and Barb that they are so hung up on their little lives and the bad things that happen. All I can say is to Let Go and Let God. I hope he gives you forgiveness, so you can forgive the people who wronged you and enables you to move on in your lives in stead of just dwelling on your miserable life. You think that you have so much power with your attorneys and such. Obviously you don't, so move on. I know I shouldn't even waste my time on this topic but thats just my 2 cents.

OKAY-

As a greek, as a Chrisitian, and as a past Pagan who's best friend is Pagan here are my two cents!

I didnt read all of the posts because I got tooo angry. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

There is nothing wrong with being Greek. If you are a strong person, you will not fall for worshipping someone you dont want to. There are Greek orgs founded in Christianity, this does not mean that a person in this org will force someone to become a Christian. My sorority was founded without scripture, and to not be biased aganst anyones religion. THESE ORGANIZATIONS WERE FOUNDED IN A DIFFERENT TIME! Things were different back in the late 1800's and early 1900's.

About Paganism. Witchcraft is a religion. Wicca is also a religion, they are seperate to clear that up... BEING PAGAN ISNT BAD! It is something someone believes, you cannot make a person believe. And before all of you christians (YES I AM CHRISTIAN!) jump down my throat, The Catholic church's mass is derived from pagan ritual. (do some research, you'll learn these things!) I have researched many world religions, and this is what I found.

You cannot discriminate because of beliefs... the person sitting next to you in church may have a totally different view of God than you do...

Thats my two cents, just gimme a email if you need more info

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"...A dynamic sisterhood of powerful and passionate women maintaining uncompromising principles, igniting positive change, and embracing individuality!"

Phi Sigma Sigma - Gamma Gamma Chapter
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1-9-4-6 Doohretsis!

Tau Beta Sigma - Delta Omicron Chapter
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Go Golden Chickens! I mean EAGLES!

There are only a few good things that came out of Clarion- Chris Kirkpatrick of NSync, Kurt Angle (Pre WWF!) and any PHI SIGMA SIGMA!

Goodness Goodness. I am a Christian and I can't believe the things the first two wrote, but i have a feeling it was someone playing a joke- who is angry with the greek system. They didn't sound very intelligent. Even though Greek organizations have secrets it is no different then people who lead one life and then go home and lead another life. You know what they say about behind closed doors. Plus Sororitys and Fraternitys don't pray to idols. We have chosen things that represent the ideals of our sorority/fraternity. I could go on and on and debate this, but I don't think it will be worth my breath. Not all Greeks haze and are brutal and not all Christians actaully follow the Bible, pray, nor read their Bible so who may cast the first stone?