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guardian_angel! 11-07-2002 11:09 AM

Phi Sig's Hate their nationals
 
The Phi Sig's at Penn close their chapter because they hate their nationals.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vn.../3dca52d3d3602

SigK_Bama 11-07-2002 11:12 AM

Whoa...

MoxieGrrl 11-07-2002 11:13 AM

Can't say that I agree or disagree with them, but I admire their bold move to stand up for what they believe in. However, I don't understand why they would be angry if Phi Sig wants to come back......they chose to leave/deactivate...why cheat someone else out of an experience that they might enjoy?

33girl 11-07-2002 11:51 AM

Whoa, indeed.

However, sometimes you reach an impasse and there is nothing to be done about it. This sounds like some of the stories of the formerly national, now local sororities at Dartmouth.

Their anger might stem from two things: 1) the feeling that the national considers them so easily replaceable and/or 2) they believe the organization does not deserve the patronage of their fellow students or the support of the school. Incidentally, I'm guessing at their point of view, not saying I feel that way.

Kevin 11-07-2002 11:58 AM

With national organizations there is an amazing amount of red tape to have to wade through. It is definitely a trade off. If you're local you trade the excellent national programming and national affiliation for being able to do what you want when you want.

Sounds like these girls just had a different set of priorities than the general sorority did.

I think it's great that they stick to their values like that.

texas*princess 11-07-2002 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MoxieGrrl
Can't say that I agree or disagree with them, but I admire their bold move to stand up for what they believe in.
I have to definately agree with this statement. ^^^^^ I know I had to make a tough decision somewhat similar to that awhile back (although it did not involve a national group), and in retrospect, it was the best decision I ever made.

Eupolis 11-07-2002 01:16 PM

There was a chapter of a NIC fraternity at my school that mass-disassociated in the 1980s. The story about why has become confused over the years, and I think I'd have to find someone who was in it at the time to get the true story. I've heard a couple of versions of the story. The versions I've heard all suggest that the brothers elected a president who was in at least one if not two minority groups of whom the headquarters did not approve, so the brothers all quit, choosing not to be part of an organization that would discriminate along those lines. I haven't got a good, concrete way to confirm the story, though. There's now a local organization (coed) that is said to be descended from the breakoff group.

PsychTau 11-07-2002 01:50 PM

Question. . .
 
If the members deaffiliated, deactivated, turned in their letters, (whatever it's called) and no longer are members of an NPC sorority, how can they continue to serve on Panhellenic Council? I understand that this is a nice thing to do for continuity of the Council and a show of support for these ladies, but it's not logical. An independent can't serve on Panhellenic Council. . .wouldn't they be considered independents?

On the other hand, it is nice to see someone stand up for their beliefs. However, it's sad to see a chapter go.

Optimist Prime 11-07-2002 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eupolis
There was a chapter of a NIC fraternity at my school that mass-disassociated in the 1980s. The story about why has become confused over the years, and I think I'd have to find someone who was in it at the time to get the true story. I've heard a couple of versions of the story. The versions I've heard all suggest that the brothers elected a president who was in at least one if not two minority groups of whom the headquarters did not approve, so the brothers all quit, choosing not to be part of an organization that would discriminate along those lines. I haven't got a good, concrete way to confirm the story, though. There's now a local organization (coed) that is said to be descended from the breakoff group.
That is true brotherhood. It was way too recent that they would disaprove of minority though. That sucks.

Ginger 11-07-2002 02:01 PM

I agree with MoxieGrrl as well..

The only thing I wonder when I read this, though, is.... do you really think ALL 60+ of those girls really wanted to deactivate? I'll bet you anything there were probably 5-10 or more girls (probably younger girls, esp.) that didn't really want to go, but felt "what can I do?"

If that is the case, I feel really bad for those girls :(

Kevin 11-07-2002 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ginger

If that is the case, I feel really bad for those girls :(

If Phi Sig wants to remain there I'm sure they could use any dissenters to keep that chapter open. Not knowing the girls' reasons for disaffiliating makes it a tough judgement call.

phisigsigchic 11-07-2002 02:13 PM

Hey guys, say hello to a member of Phi Sig (gamma nu chapter) who also got sick of National. We are ALL now on alumnae status. The Phi Sig National doesn't care about true sisterhood or any of the things our founders based this sorority on. I completely agree and sympathize with the Penn girls because all of us here at RU feel the same way. We feel that National did nothing to help us and only made the situation worse. What makes it even better is that the National Grand Archon (Sandy Grossman) is an ALUMNAE of OUR CHAPTER! And she did NOTHING to help us with recruitment (which was our problem). All they wanted was NUMBERS NUMBERS NUMBERS (for MONEY MONEY MONEY). When we explained to them that while Rutgers might be a huge school with a huge student body only about 10% go Greek. Even the more "popular" sororities have trouble making total. But they didn't want to hear it. They wanted us to recruit a ridiculous number of girls during informal rush this beginning semester (keep in mind we can't recruit freshman until the spring). And also, we aren't the most popular sorority because we haven't been given the resources by our national to build ourselves up. Instead of helping us, they just brought us down. But guess what? We are all much happier and less stressed with them out of our hair. While we are sad that we no longer are an active chapter, we feel that it was the best decision for us and we still love each other and continue to wear our letters. So to all of you who have a good national, feel grateful. Because we are very very jealous. And I know for a fact its not only Penn and Rutgers, other Phi Sig chapters feel the same. Obviously when so many people agree, then its not all our problem, National has to change its ways.

aephi alum 11-07-2002 02:23 PM

Something not too dissimilar happened at my school about 12 years ago. An NIC fraternity was unhappy with the ethnicity/religion of many of the brothers at my school's chapter, so they reorganized the chapter and asked all but a handful of the brothers to go alum. All but one of the brothers who were invited to remain active, deaffiliated instead, and the group started a local fraternity that is now a chapter of a different NIC fraternity.

I wonder - do the Phi Sigs at Penn have any plans to organize into a local sorority?

As for them continuing to serve on Panhel, if their terms are almost over anyway, might as well let them finish them out rather than scramble to find an interim president who will only serve for a few weeks. If they do form a local, the local can stay on as an associate member of Panhel.

Blue Violet 11-07-2002 02:35 PM

let me get this straight.
 
A group of guys was unhappy. Some went alum. Most disaffiliated all together. They formed a local. Then that local Joined a New National NIC? WOW! That is very modern thinking. I guess NIC doesn't have a rule like NPC about not having been initiated into two groups. Any guys out there want to be takers for this conversation? I am very intriqued:D !

LeslieAGD 11-07-2002 02:36 PM

Re: Question. . .
 
Quote:

Originally posted by PsychTau
If the members deaffiliated, deactivated, turned in their letters, (whatever it's called) and no longer are members of an NPC sorority, how can they continue to serve on Panhellenic Council? I understand that this is a nice thing to do for continuity of the Council and a show of support for these ladies, but it's not logical. An independent can't serve on Panhellenic Council. . .wouldn't they be considered independents?
I was thinking the same thing. The only rational thing reason seems to be that since it's almost mid-November already, and elections have probably started, it will be easier to just allow the officers to finish the month.

I'm also wondering if the ex-members are still living in the house.

PiPhiERDoc 11-07-2002 02:38 PM

I am truly shocked by this. How sad that the chapter did not feel that they were supported by their nationals.
While I cannot comment AT ALL on this particular situation or Phi Sigma Sigma, I would like to tell all of you who are new to the greek system or potential members that I think this is the exception rather than the rule...I know our chapter has felt incredibly supported by our national officers when times got tough. During one of my first years as an advisor we had a situation with our campus administrators and our national officers REPEATEDLY went to bat for us, and our grand pres called the campus greek advisor on almost a daily basis in support of us. I have also had AMAZING experiences with the Kappa Kappa Gamma national officers, who were on our campus with their chapter during rush 2 years ago and were amazingly classy ladies who clearly would do ANYTHING for their chapter.
As an alum, I really hope all of our collegians know/feel that we support them completely and that our national organization knows that they are the "lifeblood" and essential to our sisterhood continuing to grow and thrive.

MysticCat 11-07-2002 02:48 PM

Re: let me get this straight.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Violet
I guess NIC doesn't have a rule like NPC about not having been initiated into two groups.
Section 1(a)(3) of the NIC's By-Laws requires that member fraternities be "mutually exclusive of and in competition with other general fraternities, meaning that no member fraternity shall initiate a member of another fraternity until such time as the second fraternity shall have been formally notified in writing by the national office of the first fraternity that a candidate for membership in the second fraternity is no longer regarded as a member of the fraternity." (My $0.02 -- this seems like a much more reasonable policy than NPC's strict ban under all circumstances.)

As for aephi's example, it doesn't sound like they de-activitated with the intention of joining a different national. She said that the deaffiliations happened 12 years ago, that the de-affiliated brothers formed a local fraternity, and that the local fraternity is now (12 years later) a chapter of a different NIC fraternity. Unless the local joined NIC Fraternity 2 more than seven or eight years ago, then all of the brothers who had originally pledged NIC Fraternity 1 would have graduated by the time NIC Fraternity 2 came into the picture.

aephi alum 11-07-2002 02:57 PM

Re: let me get this straight.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Violet
A group of guys was unhappy. Some went alum. Most disaffiliated all together. They formed a local. Then that local Joined a New National NIC? WOW! That is very modern thinking. I guess NIC doesn't have a rule like NPC about not having been initiated into two groups. Any guys out there want to be takers for this conversation? I am very intriqued:D !
Actually, all the brothers who'd been initiated into the first NIC fraternity had graduated by the time the local became a chapter of the second NIC fraternity. The reorganization was in 1990; the local was a colony of the second fraternity by the time I got there (1993); and the chapter was installed in 1995.

ROWDYsister 11-07-2002 03:00 PM

If there's something in the way of truly enjoying the Greek experience, the chapter shouldn't hesistate to consider relinquishing their charter. My own chapter decided to do that and become alumnae in the 70's. Greek life just wasn't fun (it was looked upon very negatively on our campus), so Florida Delta wanted to go out with a bang. Then we came back in the 80's and it's all good now. Whatever works.

Blue Violet 11-07-2002 03:02 PM

Oh, that makes more sense!
 
Thats cool that the guys give each other another chance. I agree it is more reasonable than the NPC's rule. I love this website. I am just fascinated by everyone on here.

IvySpice 11-07-2002 06:18 PM

I'm not all that surprised
 
The superficial side of the Greek system at Penn (and there is one) really slapped this chapter. Other sororities' NMs were taught rude songs about them and referred to them by an insulting nickname. Greeks should be embarrassed by the way this chapter was treated; they were at the bottom of the totem pole and everybody higher up acted like it was OK to step on them. Not surprisingly, the women who chose to join the chapter were unusually likely to be searching for real sisterhood (as opposed to social status and free beer from guys in the right fraternities). Also not surprisingly, they tended to have trouble attracting lots of freshmen. Losing them really does change the face of Greek life at Penn.

We don't know what the issue with nationals was, but I'd bet numbers had a lot to do with it. 60 members is shockingly tiny for a sorority at Penn (pledge classes at the big chapters are often around 50).

Unfortunately, the vultures may start circling a new chapter now that they don't have this one to kick around any more. The whole business is just so sad.

Ivy

KSig RC 11-07-2002 07:28 PM

Re: let me get this straight.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Blue Violet
A group of guys was unhappy. Some went alum. Most disaffiliated all together. They formed a local. Then that local Joined a New National NIC? WOW! That is very modern thinking. I guess NIC doesn't have a rule like NPC about not having been initiated into two groups. Any guys out there want to be takers for this conversation? I am very intriqued:D !
no no no - you missed the boat.

The local they founded went on to become a chapter of another national - that doesn't mean the founding fathers did though, it was most likely years later.

The NIC has the same rule as NPC.

phisigduchesscv 11-07-2002 07:32 PM

In defense of Phi Sigma Sigma Central Office they have been helpful and supportive of whatever the Iota Gamma Chapter has needed.
We are the only NPC on a commuter campus of 13,000 students and we are also considered an "urban" campus - meaning we serve some lower to middle income areas. Including Phi Sig there are 7 sororities at CSUDH but the number of participants in the Greek System is small because we are a commuter campus where the average age is 29. Yet Phi Sig CO has been supportive as we try to recruit on a campus where very few people go greek.

I'm truly sad to see what is happening at Penn State but I feel we are not getting the whole story here.

AngelPhiSig 11-07-2002 07:48 PM

okay, here are my views...

I have been a sister for three years, (I pledged Spring 2000) In this time I have seen many changes happen with Central Office, and our National Org. The major one being the new - new member program. I have many many problems with the new program, but when it was in a draft and I was incoperating it with the old one (when I was MOC) I loved it. The new program does not focus a lot on history which makes many sisters angry. (including me, little miss history book)

Our national org is trying to get better with deadlines and organization and I know that is what many chapters are frustrated with.

I breifly skimmed the article, did the sisters talk to nationals? I remember talking with our Division Collegeate Pres. whos Alum from our chapter, and our old Grand Archon (Josette George, she rocks!) about closing of chapters and chapters with problems. National will not come in and just close a chapter, they will help with the problem - we dont want to lose them. So if the sisters did not contact National with their problem to see if it could be solved ( be it communication between the two, help that they needed etc) then I think they have no right "turining in their letters".

And another thing about our national organization. We have many chapters and many sisters. (not saying were huge, just saying its not like a teacher with a class of 30) you need to be persistant if you want them to get something done,or want them to notice a trend in membership or a problem.

I feel badly for what has happened with the Nu Chapter at Penn, they were one of our oldest and just had their 75th (I think) along with Xi. But I also do not want people not joining or thinking bad things about Phi Sig because of this. Every chapter is different, if this one group of women decided that it was no longer for them, that is their perogitive... (note, Alison cannot spell)

Oh well, thats my .02 for the moment, or else I could write a novel...

DWAlphaGam 11-07-2002 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phisigduchesscv
I'm truly sad to see what is happening at Penn State but I feel we are not getting the whole story here.
Just for clarification, this was at the University of Pennsylvania, not Penn State.

I agree, there has to be more to the story. No headquarters just randomly goes around and closes chapters without giving them a fair shot first. Most will send in consultants and work with the chapter as much as possible to improve their strategies. Sometimes, especially if you're dealing with a campus like the one IvySpice described, it's next to impossible to pull a chapter out of that hole and there is no choice but to close. This is a perfect example of why Greek unity on a campus is so important; large chapters need to stop kicking smaller ones while they're down because everyone suffers when a chapter has to close its doors.

phisigsigchic 11-07-2002 09:03 PM

First of all, I just want to say that while some things about Phi Sig national are good, there are so so many things wrong with it. And its totally obvious. You guys defending them might feel the need to because your still true to the sorority but just cuz you love Phi Sig doesn't mean you have to love everyone working down there in Fl at Central Office. Because we SHOULD be a stronger sorority nationwide and guess what? we aren't and thats completely true. Other Phi Sigs have told me about the bad reputations and name calling they have to break through on their own campuses. Because we aren't known as a sorority with a lot of numbers and popularity (at least at RU we weren't, I don't want other Phi Sigs to jump down my throat here but I am speaking from what I have HEARD!). National does NOT help us with recruitment. Other sororities have national come down and totally get them up to total. Our own alumnae Sandy Grossman didn't even help, (in fact, it is my opinion, she is glad we are no longer active and she had a big hand in making sure we wouldn't be, but thats my opinion and btw in case anyone starts, this is a FREE COUNTRY and I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE AND EXPRESS MY OPINION! :mad: ) I love what Phi Sigma Sigma stands for and I don't regret joining. But I am sad to say that our National cares nothing about us. Too bad because its just their loss anyway.

Glitter650 11-07-2002 10:24 PM

Umm wow... Well all I can say is that although I know ou Nationals can take a while sometimes to do paperwork type stuff and all of that... I know before I joined a few years ago our chapter was in TROUBLE and they did send out a chapter consultant who helped us out SOO SOOO much (or so I've heard I wasn't a member yet) and now I KNOW for a fact we have one of the strongest sisterhoods on campus, not the largest, but we have a VERY storong sisterhood which I am proud of. This actually makes me sad to read for so many reasons that I won't get into on this board... and I don't know about the particular situation the chapter at Penn. faced.... all I know is my chapter has been fairly well supported by our national org, and although it's not perfect we've never really had a problem with the people in Florida.

phisig4eva 11-07-2002 11:04 PM

in defense
 
I wanted to say a few things:

first of all, phi sig is a compartively young national sorority. we were founded in 1913 for those of you who dont know - i think only SDT was founded after us, though i could be wrong. but the point is we're still learning - i mean, when was phi mu founded, 1850s? kappa, tri delt, dg etc etc all in the late 1800s... we have a lot of catching up to do.

bearing that in mind, i think nationals is doing its VERY best to get to the levels of the other strong national sororities. and as others have mentioned, we have a LOT of work to do. the administrative aspect is terrible - they're working on it. they just released Vision in 2001, to help with recruitment. and yes, i understand that the national officers are lacking in some areas -- but cut them some slack - they are still young, still learning, and i truly believe they are trying to do whats right for the national organization.

it is not unusual at all for a national organization to shut down a chapter that cannot get the numbers in recruitment. phisigsigchic, i agree that they set goals for the RU chapter that were perhaps unrealistic. but i've read PLENTY of threads from other sororities on here where their nationals come in, close the chapter for a few years and then reopen it again later when it can be a healthy and competetive chapter. i'm sorry it had to happen to you and my heart goes out to you, but please try to understand it from a national perspective.

and ivy, i believe you are correct that it was a numbers issue at penn. i know in my chapter we caught a lot of cr*p for nationals, and we were only TWO below quota - which was 90 some girls! i think nationals is taking a huge initiative to try and improve chapter reputation across the board, by shutting down and reopening chapters that are not able to get the numbers in recruitment. when an organization is lacking in so many areas, it's hard to say which ones to tackle first. i understand that the chapters that closed may have been strong in sisterhood - i'm sure the national officers understand that too. but there are other issues that they have to deal with as well.

i just wanted to write this because i think (as someone said earlier) that phi sig is a fairly progressive organization. they/we are doing their/our best to catch up to the stronger orgs AND stay up to speed on the latest trends (such as Vision type recruitment, for you phi sigs who know what i mean). and i think it WILL be a much better organization in 5-10 years. but we have to weed out the things that are holding us back as a national org and try to improve upon everything else.

so i'm sorry to the girls at penn, and i'm sorry for whatever drove them to disaffiliate. i knew some girls from that chapter, and they were wonderful. but for everyone else, please take the negativity about our national organization with a grain of salt, and keep in mind that our national officers are learning from their mistakes, and that learning is what will make phi sig stronger.

phisigsigchic 11-07-2002 11:09 PM

Well all I know is, I am not the only that feels this way. We got about 45 girls here at RU who agree and a bunch every where else in other chapters (not to mention the 60 at Penn). So thats all I am going to say on that. I know some of you will never see our side to it, not like I was trying to convince you of it anyway. Whatever, all I have to say is, and I speak for my whole chapter: WE ARE 100% HAPPY AND STRESS FREE! :D

Tom Earp 11-07-2002 11:47 PM

While I am getting worn out from teh hours that I am working it gets harder to keep up with everything and fully understand all that is being said!

I can totally understand as My Chapter at one time wanted to tell IHQ to kiss off!

One thing to remember people, taht Headquarters just as local chapters are under the gun alos!

Also, remeber, there are few Greek Orgs taht have fully paid staffs.

I think LXA has more than anyone or most at least!

The drain of money is significant in any stetch of the imagination!

Chapters who do not pay dues then it falls back on teh shoulders of all.

Our IHQ had us in debt to the tune of 14,000. Well they were wrong because of book keeping and having us in Penn. instead of Kansas!

Well, we have them paid off and all is straightened out for the time being!

As far as Butts in HDQ. We had one member who wanted all Chapters off of small schools!

Thank god he is gone, but sad to say, he is Director of APO of which I am a member of!

Most staffs are over worked under paid, and Chapters do not send things in on a timely manner.

Are you at fault? Is Hdq. at fault? It is each and everyone who reads this to judge!

Well enuff of my Diatrab!

Kevin 11-08-2002 12:14 AM

I think we sometimes misunderstand our HQ's/IHQ's. I work with (and have worked with) divisional officials and national officials on a fairly regular basis. I have been able to see that with around 200 UNIQUE chapters it is very difficult for Sigma Nu to deal with each one of us in the way it needs to be done.

We have a GREAT staff and they are able to pull it off very admirably. I can see that it is a great challenge to be able to work with chapters at schools like Kansas State and 'Ole Miss and then turn around and work with smaller East Coast chapters in the same day. Chapters are anywhere between under 10 members to over 200.

It's a challenge and we really should APPRECIATE these people when they are doing such great jobs... Or understand when they have their shortcomings.

Optimist Prime 11-08-2002 12:23 AM

Phisigsigchick,

Is RU for Radford?

Glitter650 11-08-2002 12:55 AM

Optimist... I believe she means Rutgers Univ. in New Jersey... :D

amycat412 11-08-2002 01:22 AM

I am changing the name of this thread to accurately reflect the subject matter:

UPenn Phi Sig Chapter Disbands

There are MANY phi sigs and not ALL of them hate their nationals, so...that's why.


Amy

Glitter650 11-08-2002 01:53 AM

THANK YOU AMY !!!!!!! I was going to ask a MOD if that could be done because I didn't really like that subject line :D

phisig4eva 11-08-2002 04:47 AM

thank you very much amy

cause you know what

i LOVE my nationals.

pirepresent 11-08-2002 05:17 AM

I agree!!

I am a Phi Sig at a great big school and I am nothing but happy with the way they have treated us. They have been supportive and wonderful and there all the way.

PhiSig4eva I am right there with you!! I love my nationals!!

AngelPhiSig 11-08-2002 07:00 AM

For Phi Sigs Basically:
 
Okay... dont get mad at me for this:

Ladies:
I feel that it is best not to bash CO on this board, if you feel that you must get feelings out, I think that the Phi Sig board is the best, and even better - send your concerns to CO (Phi Sigma Sigma Central Office - 23123 State Rd #7 Suite 250 - Boca Raton FL 33428) We as Phi Sigs know that CO is unorganized and trying to get better, but we dont need to be airing our dirty laundry on a more public board, you do not know what PNM's you might be convincing to not join, or if there might be someone who will start bashing the chapter of Phi Sig at their school. Its not like I can do anything to stop the talk about national here, but this is just my suggestion!

LITP
Alison

PS: Also, remember that it its National not NationalS
PPS: SMILE
PPPS: Josette George ROCKS... heh... (sorry, my chapter loves her... hehe... go NPC Delegate!)

The1calledTKE 11-08-2002 11:15 AM

This explains why they disbanned and quit Phi Sig.

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vn.../3dcb7c81c69d2

IowaHawkeye 11-08-2002 11:21 AM

i applaud these women for doing what they felt was right even though it was probably a tough and emotional decision.

does anyone else feel that if total is usually 100+ - having 75 women is still very good? i guess i just see 75 women as awesome considering that total here is 120 and there are 2 groups surviving with way less than 75 at the moment. it sounds to me, like for the girls in the chapter, it was less to do with numbers, and more to do with how easily nationals would come in there and put them on alum.


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