Expansion to "non-elite" schools?
 

So, we have really selective schools like Harvard on one end ... and schools that simply require a high school diploma on the other. Do you think your national GLO should avoid colonizing on a non-selective campus, especially if it is not a commuter school that might be attended for financial reasons but is instead a private institution?

If you say, "We should not colonize there," you're saying, "Even their best students aren't good enough for my GLO." And are their best really less than some of your members on other campuses? Can't there be great women anywhere?

If you say, "We should colonize there," are you really making your organization its best? Are you best off expending your expansion efforts at mediocre institutions? Are many of the members likely to become outstanding members and alums?

What if it's a choice between expanding there or nowhere at all?

Do you think the academic selectivity of the campuses you are at affects your sorority's PR, and is that important? Or are the other characteristics of the women, such as their character and spirit, more important? Is a school's academic strength just one factor among many - like geography, average chapter size, need for a new sorority, and strength of Greek system?

I'm interested to hear what people think, because it seems to me that some sororities only colonize at very big or well-known schools (aka their chapters are mostly Ivies and Big State Us), while others are more open to smaller or lesser-known schools.

And I don't mean this question to bash anyone's school - please don't say, "The women at Western Walnut College are morons, and they make Mu Mu look bad." I'd like to keep it a little more general.

Geez, FuzzieAlum, you ask hard questions!! :p

I think that there are a lot of schools out there that have an unwarranted rep, good OR bad. The main thing to look at when colonizing is, can YOU (the national sorority entity you) be happy with that school? In other words, don't expand to Teeny U. if you are expecting them to have the financial base/intellectual ferment/name recognition of Yale. It ain't happenin!

Chapters that are successful are successful because they are the best they can be, and appreciated for that, not because they're held up to an unattainable ideal.

LXA is using a 2 pronged attack when it comes to colonizing!

We look to reopen chapters that have been closed and look for schools and groups who have an interest in having us!

I the heyday of expansion, it was a wholesale run to get new Chapters. That has come to a halt as LXA want to open a colony with the Hopes of it staying on the campus!:)

Colonize at bigger schools with a strong tradition of Greek life and you get more members... thus, more alums... thus, more money.

Colonize at smaller schools with less solid reputations and you could get fewer members, thus fewer alums. Also, the median salary of people who graduate from these schools will be a bit lower, so you will get less alum. support (monetarily, that is).

Now, I'm not saying things should be all about money. But, in reality, they usually are. Fraternities and sororities are sort of in business... they do have to support themselves.

Also, if you were to open chapters at, say, JuCos where kids only go for two years, their bonds *may* not be as strong as those who spend four years together (I'm not stating this as fact, just possibility). If their bonds aren't as strong, they may not take the fraternity/sorority seriously and it could cause problems.

I am not saying that kids at these schools are not as great, or smart or loyal... I just don't think the situation is ideal.

Anyway, I believe that it is usually a better idea to colonize at bigger, more illustrious, schools. When we run out of those, then we can go elsewhere.

I go to one of those smaller, less known schools and I can honestly say that I can see the benefits and the drawbacks to it. Christopher Newport University only recently became a university, before that it was a college, and even then, there were (inter)national organizations here. And up until this past year, CNU was largely a commuter school that attracted the more non-traditional students.

Yes, that makes it more difficult to get interest in the Greek system as a whole. We've found, more often than not, that many commuter students aren't as attached to the university...they come for class and leave. Whereas the resident students are here all the time. Yet we still managed to reach out to a (relatively small) number of commuter students.

However, all the organizations here tend to have very dedicated and out-going members. GPA requirements are going up for the university and with that for the Greek organizations as well. As the school demands more of its students, we demand more of our members.

I'd say our biggest problem is not the Greek organizations in and of themselves, but the administrations attitudes towards them. Within the past year and a half, we have lost three organizations on campus (four if you want to count one that simply died out). And yet, admin is encouraging us to expand. Considering the recent elimination of organizations, I think it might become a little harder to get another organization to colonize here. But we're trying. Despite all the attempts of the university to rid itself of Greek life, they have hired a new Greek advisor (at a time when the state is cutting back the budget for educational institutions). Their "new plan" for Greek life is to expand to eight NIC fraternities and eight NPC organizations. We're currently at two NIC fraternities (we lost two last year) and three NPC organizations. We also have two NPHC organizations (we lost two last year....one died out).

From the other side of things...
 

Commuter schools need donations also! Statistics don't lie and Greeks make up a LARGE percentage of donations... Why? Probably because our members on the whole tend to enjoy their college experience more and therefore are more inclined to go back and donate.

Some commuter schools go out of their way to welcome greek life. Mine is a good example. They support us wherever they can and otherwise stay out of the way.

Large schools -- at least for fraternities are not a sure thing. They are usually so loaded up with fraternities that it becomes difficult to start a new one. If you're a national organization with limited resources you will spend them where they're best spent. Recolonizing dormant chapters that have good alumni support and at schools where you are certain there is a demand for more GLO's -- regardless of size of school or financial status of members.

I don't like this question
 

I honestly don't think that the way this question is phrased is even relevant, or acceptable (sorry).

Looking at Beta...Some of our best chapters are at what would be classified as less than selective...even my own chapter. Nebraska and K-State are not that hard to get into, both requiring like a 21 ACT score or a 2.0 in HS core classes. Yet I think most Betas would agree that we are two of the best chapters in Beta's Broad Domain. Other chapters, and since I don't know what I'm allowed to say or exact details, I'll just say they are East Coast and they could be Ivy League, are in financial trouble, are being reorganized or were recently closed.

Just because someone gets into an Ivy League school does not mean that they are a better Beta than I. Their HS qualifications mean next to nothing once they have gotten to college and it is only there future actions that determine whether Wooglin smiles upon them, in other words, their future actions and accomplishments are what determines their worth as a member.

If they meet the standard requirements than they have done what is necessary to be privilaged to the secrets of Beta Theta Pi, end of story.

This question is almost like saying that a Rhodes Scholar from a State U is not as good as one from Harvard.

Wow....I don't know if I can answer this one. But sometimes colonizing at a more selective, stronger academic school can have problems.

For example: Nationals were always riding us about not being #1 in grades. Well, our chapter GPA had a 3.4 and all of the sororities were within hundreths of a point of one another. Also being that we are a smaller school, therefore, having smaller chapters, one person screwing up can really hurt the overall GPA! I don't know if this would be as much of a problem at bigger schools, where there might be more room for individuals to not pull their weight (for lack of a better term).

I hope that I am understanding you correctly.
I come from a commuter campus in Chicago. We have some girls who could not afford to go to a bigger school, but we also have girls that wanted to stay close to home or love living in Chicago or that want to go to med school at UIC and thought they would start out here. I do not think that the "kind" of school that it is matters. We have one of the top GPA in all of our national chapters. Our national GPA requirement is a 3.2/5.0 our chapter has made it 3.5/5.0 and every semester it goes up.

just my opinion
 

I think limiting your chapter to "elite" schools is not an effective way to get better members. Sometimes at those schools people have less time to spend with their GLO b/c the school is so demanding. I know several extremely intellegent (Rhodes Scholars) women who did not join sosorities b/c they didn't have the time.I know one girl who had to quit her sorority b/c she wasn't making straight "A"'s (she was med school bound)They were way too caught up in grades. Some of your more academic types look down on frats & sororos as silly and immature(depending on where you are!)I also know some really great, super smart, heavily involved in their GLO people who chose to go to a "lesser" school because they just wanted to stay close to home, got a better financial deal, or whatever. Also, there are some schools that are not necessarily known as being top notch schools, but they have really top notch dance programs or business programs or colleges of Ed. Those people may not be the best University, but maybe their program is really prestigious. There are too many factors to make it clear cut like that.Unfortunately, I also know MANY girls who went to "elite" private colleges, joined THE BEST sorority houses on campus, got married and disapeared off the face of the planet because getting married to a rich guy was their goal.Sad but true. I personally don't see spending 20K a year at a private school so I can get my MRS degress. But hey, to each his own!:p

There are over 3,000 colleges and universities and only 8 are Ivy Leagues. If you limit expansion of your GLO to these and the other top 5% or 10% most selective schools, you're limiting yourself to a handful of schools, many of which are overtly hostile to greeks.

There are schools that have had fraternities and sororities for over 125 years. There are schools that are looking to go greek now for the first time. I think having a chapter at a school with a strong greek tradition and history is a great thing. These chapters can be examples to the newer colonies and chapters much like older sisters and brothers can be role models for the new members.

I'm afraid that the question that is raised might contribute to the reputation of elitism of the greek community as seen by non-greeks at the lesser known schools who are potentially good members. Of course, the anti-greeks need little to consider us 'elite' in the derrogatory sense of the word.

Hmm.. this is something I really hadn't put much thought into. But here goes...

I think that any man or woman striving to be a better person is an excellent candidate for the Greek system. These people are all over the place, at many different kinds of schools. I know people I graduated with who were way smarter than I am went to community colleges because they didn't know what they wanted to do or couldn't afford anywhere else. I went to a small private university on the space coast, but that doesn't make me any smarter than those kids just because I go to a supposedly better school. So I can't really see how only wanting to expand to top schools would provide better members to the Greek system. Excellent men and women are found everywhere in the world, not just at Harvard or Yale.

However, I can see the difficulty of creating a chapter at a junior college or commuter school. I don't think that GPA is necessarily an issue, but interest may be. People at junior colleges don't usually have a lot of school pride because it's usually just a stepping stone to the university that they really want to go to. If you don't have a lot of school pride, you're not going to be very active on campus, because you're just getting out of there as soon as you can anyway, right? I know I'm making some generalizations here, but this is what I've gotten from talking to my friends who do go to junior colleges.

Also, if you're transferring soon, making a large committment to something like a fraternity or sorority probably isn't that high up on your priority list. We had a girl who pledged Alpha Phi last year who wanted to transfer to Virginia Tech. She got her acceptance to transfer a semester early and told us that while she loved us, she was de-pledging because she didn't know the Alpha Phis at VT, and that she would be required to live at the house if she was accepted by their chapter (we didn't have a house at the time), and she would feel awkward living with strangers. While I do think that in some ways having a group of friends in Alpha Phi there when she got there would have helped her adjust better, I can also see how it would be very intimidating, especially to go from a chapter of 30 girls to something like 80-100.

I think a 4-year commuter school could have some successful chapters because these students will be sticking around for all 4 years. They probably wouldn't have a very large greek system though, but that isn't all that important in the grand scheme of things. There are plenty of schools with great Greek systems that only have a few chapters. I personally like it that there are only 8 chapters on my campus instead of 20. It's much easier to get to know everyone that way and I think less rivalries develop because you HAVE to be close to survive (except for the fact that there's only 2 sororities, but even then, we work together when it's really important and we realize that if one of us goes down, the other will soon follow).

Just my two pennies. :)

yeah come to radford. I mean uh..go highlanders.

I personally think that just because a school is more "elite" or selective about its student body, it doesn't translate into better members for our greek organizations.
I think in order for an organization to thrive it should get members form all different types of schools. I agree greek orgs. at Jr. colleges isn't a great idea, but I think all the orgs should strive to have chapters at all different types of schools in order to gain a balance of different types of chapters, large and small, from big public universities to smaller private universities
I think greek life has something to offer everyone, so why not try and bring it to all campuses so the people who want to can get the benefits of belonging to a chapter ?? Who says you have to choose between one or the other ??
I mean my org. has a chapter at Penn, and my school, which to say the least is NOT selective. But the members of both chapters are getting the benefits of belonging and are still contributing to the organization. I don't think that just because my sisters from that chapter happen to go to an Ivy league school doesn't mean they have more to offer an organization than myself.
In someways I think that commuter schools are the ones who need greek life the most. It totally helps you feel connected to the school that you can't be otherwise in an environment where so many people come and go and don't take part in the campus community.

Psi U is only in the tier I and II schools, doubt we will go below that.

Is that by design or by tradition?

It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, I just think this is an excellent topic.

back in the day design.....we turned down like 80 petitions. Now it still influences decsions on where to start colonies.

Re Psi U, I think it is far easier for a fraternity to make that decision than a sorority, simply because there are 3 times as many NIC fraternities as NPC sororities. The competition for potential members isn't the same.

I have a lot to say about this subject, as someone who goes to a small state school that isn’t that selective. Are y'all saying that people that go to schools like this aren’t as GOOD as people who go to better schools? I personally think that I am an as good, if not better contribution to my glo. I scored very high on my ACT, graduated top five in my high school class (in a class of 1200 graduates), was a class officer, and I think I would be just as marketable at any "better" school as I am right here where I am now. Just because a glo is composed of people who go to a school with a less developed academic (or other) reputation, does not mean that they do not have a great, great, great organization with great, great, great members. And just because these people go to these "lesser" schools in the first place, are they not good enough to have your precious organization on their campus? It seems to me that a glo is supposed to be about true sisterhood, brotherhood, and concern for their community and other service oriented concerns. And although we were all meant to be part of an organization that is selective (that is what makes us special), but I am pretty sure that most people's glos were meant to be about being part of an amazing group of people that care, not about being snobby and not allowing our organization to colonize at a less competitive school because the potential members aren't as good as those who go to an ivy league school. By WHAT standards are these groups potentially not as good???

If your GLO is not expanding, its die-ing.
 

If there are 3,000 4-year colleges, and you limit your GLO to the top 10 percent, that's 300 possible chapters (and I don't think even TKE, LXA, or SPE have that many active chapters.)

I think there are GLOs at 650-700 campuses, so no National is even at half the campuses.

Some of these old line GLOs, like Psi U, may say they only go to "Tier I/II" schools, but if you look at their roster of chapters they have made many exceptions. If some alum's kid was going to XYZ college, and wanted to be a Psi U, XYZ was soon elevated to Tier I/II (perhaps in exchange for a few $$$, a donated house, etc. from the alum.)

During the heydey of TKE/LXA/SPE/DZ expansion in the decade of the 1960s, TKE installed 23 or 27 chapters in one school year. There were so many new chapters, that each only got a few paragraphs in the TKE magazine.

Many of these were "pioneers" - the first national GLO on a campus. Now, 40/50 years later, some of the pioneers are the oldest and largest on campus, and now watch as the other GLOs try to colonize/charter new groups. SX and SAE and others may have laughed in the 1960s as TKE/LXA/SPE/DZ attempted to start from scratch at some big-name places, but now TKE/LXA/SPE/DZ laugh as SX and SAE and others try to start colonies at some of these former state teacher's colleges, which now are major universities with 1,000s of students.

Of course, some of the TKE pioneers and charters in the 1960s died slow and agonizing deaths - but in general TKE is a post-WWII fraternity and fairly healthy due to the efforts of its expansion leaders.

Basicly I believe that if your GLO is good, you should spread the word to more good students at more good campuses. If your GLO is not expanding, its die-ing.

I don't think expanding to junior colleges is much of an issue, since the NPC at least (I'm not sure for the fraternities) forbids NPC orgs to have chapters there.

I was asking partially because if you look at different sororities, more so than fraternities I think, you will see a real difference in where they are located. Sometimes it's geographical (Phi Sig in the NE, Phi Mu in the South), but other times it is prestige - and I'm not the person who ranks schools. If you don't like rankings, complain to US News and World Report or the parents who push their kids to Harvard - or the sororities who won't colonize certain places! While I do believe you can get a better education with smaller classes, brighter classmates, sharper professors who love to teach, and a rich extracurricular experience, any accredited school offers a quality education, and brains are not the only requirement for sorority membership.

Lately most Greek expansion has been to either small private institutions or to state schools that are primarily commuter. These usually are schools that didn't have much of a Greek system in the past. And I'm noticing the same few sororities colonizing at these institutions - D Phi E, A Xi D, Theta Phi Alpha are a few that come to mind (I'm not saying they are the only ones). Given that these are not the biggest or richest nationals, my guess is that some other nationals are choosing not to colonize at these schools. I am wondering - will the ones who didn't colonize be sorry later, or will they feel happy with their choice down the road?

I think talk of elitisim is beside the point - GLOs are supposed to be the elite. You're supposed to choose the best men and women on campus, right? So the question is, should that be extended to only choosing the best campuses as well?

My personal feeling is no, up to a point. There are a FEW schools that in my experience do such a poor job of education I do not want AXD to be represented there. But that is a very small segment of schools - certainly not anything just below Harvard or the top 10 percent! I would not rule out, for example, most small commuter colleges. I'm thinking instead that maybe the bottom 5% I wouldn't colonize at.

It could be kinda that the reason that some GLO's choose schools because of ther prestige beacuse if they are in an elite school, the average kid would be better off financially than someone going to a less prestigous school, thus it would make sence that the chapter there would have a better chance of being finacially stable, and have a surviablity rate than ones in less well off schools....(I really dont believe this, but it just popped into my head while trying to figure out an inpossible essay question, you will find many holes in this argument.)

Fraternities with chapters at junior colleges are eligible for membership in the NIC. The NIC does not forbid junior college chapters.

Why would it be easier for a fraternity to only expand at top schools because there are 3 times as many NIC fraternities? Wouldn't it be tougher because of all the competition?

I think it would be easier for a sorority because they have so much less competition.

The thing about commuter schools is that most students have other outside commitments such as full time jobs, babies, etc.--so many have little time left for extracurriculars. I know that at the U of Hawaii it was hard to round up a goodsized Angel Flight chapter because so few people hung around the campus after classes were over for the day.

Not only do you need decent numbers to form GLOs but you need a good percentage of that number to spend a fair amount of time on them.

Hoosier, very well put!!

LXA, wil not go to 2 years schools as is writen, 4 year schools!

LXA in 1909 went only to Large schools. They helped a fledgling Fraternity, TKN, start which went to State Schools.

In 1939, the 2 merged to be the biggest merger in GreekDom History!

It was out of neccesaty becaus of the times! "WAR" and many Chapters were closing!

At one time, LXA and TKE talked of a merger. What a differnt structure todays Organizations might have been!

Why was there new Groups, because the Union and Miami Triad would not expand to certain schools!

Yes, as Hoosier says, there is a lot of laffing today, but many of tehm are expanding now as we did many years ago, or they are so small that they mean very little!

madmax - I said it would be easier for them to make that decision. If for example, Psi U says outright they will only go to Ivy League schools, no one is going to get their panties in a bunch because there are so many other choices.

For a NPC sorority to say they will only expand to state colleges, or the Ivy League or wherever, runs contrary to the NPC expansion policies where ALL sororities not on the campus are invited to present. Theoretically every group has an equal chance.

Basically the attempt for all members to be "equal" is a driving force in the NPC and not the NIC.

I think it depends on the school. I would rather start new chapters at some of the schools in Florida such as U of Miami, FSU or UF vs Harvard or Princeton. I dont think their greek systems are too strong.

My experience....
 

When I was in school I was in a local that went inter/national-- I went to an academically competitive liberal arts college in the Midwest--2000 students total. And I can tell you that none of the larger, more prominent NPC groups were interested in my campus (we had two groups interested at the same time). We received interest from all but two of the groups that joined NPC in 1951--and one who had joined prior.

I think is depends on many things-- is the inter/national expanding? What image does the campus have? Are there alumnae in the area (that can help or vouch for the quality of the institution)? Are our resources wisely spent here? Some of the larger groups may think that a group of under 50 in size will not be a wise use of their money since the financial return is not that great.

As for DPhiE (someone mentioned us) we are selective with the campuses we choose to expand to-- we have a extensive process, a set of standards and expectations that should be met before we agree to expand. Obviously, those may be different from other organizations but we are growing steadily and seeing positive results from this process. We're proud of our colonies and know they will only add to our sisterhood.