Letters while partying - Double standard for guys/girls?
 

I know this topic has been discussed on a few other threads, but I wanted to focus on more of an "equality" issue, rather than the actions themselves.

There are several threads about drinking with your letters on, or committing certain "unsavory" actions while representing your house.

I know times have changed by what is okay and what's not. I also find it interesting when guys comment, like on the drinking with letters...because I feel it doesn't apply to them.

I'm just wondering out loud...do fraternity members today realize that sorority members DO have such rules? We all know that a guy is proud to wear his letters when he's going out with the boys. But sorority members usually make a conscious effort to NOT wear their letters when they do the same.

So then, why do the guys put girls "on the spot" when it comes to socials & parties? I"m not knocking the drinking - the drinking age was 19 when I was in college (late 80s), & I certainly wasn't a wallflower. We had Hot Body contests back then too - remember, those hilarious Spring Break movies were all from our days.. You younguns didn't invent upside-down margaritas, beer bongs or even booty dancing. And SURPRISE! you weren't the first ones to have premarital sex!

But, what I mean is the situations - like the sucking on dildos or the pole-dancing. IMO, these are over the limits of good taste. Why do fraternity members push the sorority girls into doing these things?

Sure, I know there's no gun put to the participants' heads, but we all know what the peer pressure can be like.

So, how can we, as sorority members, say "don't drink or smoke with your letters on!" but then, climb up onstage and do a pole dance, with a thong hanging out of lowcut jeans? Just because it's in the "privacy" of a fraternity house? PULEEZE! We all know how "private" they can be..

There IS a double standard, so why do fraternity members push sorority members to the limit?

Yes, it's been years since I've been to a fraternity party...so please, enlighten this 30something woman who cares about the future of Greek life. I would like fraternities & sororities to be around in 20 or so years for my kids.

And let's do this without flames..

Re: Letters while partying - Double standard for guys/girls?
 

Thank you, this is what I've been saying over and over again about the "no drinking in letters" idiocy. I went to a small school with a small Greek system...everyone knew I was an ASA whether I was in letters or not. We wore letter sweatshirts often at bars/parties because 1) it was a way to show pride in your org 2) the majority of students were on financial aid and didn't have walk-in closetsful of wardrobes to choose from 3) it was bleeping cold, and sweatshirts are easier to wash than sweaters.

If you think something is wrong, be it drinking, smoking, or wearing a penis as a hat, you shouldn't do it in OR out of your letters. To say "OMG! Don't smoke w/ letters on!" but to say it's OK to act like a hobag OUT of letters is just hypocrisy.

OK, two things:

(1) It's not that drinking in letters is wrong. I'm 21, I drink occasionally, and there's nothing wrong with that legally or morally. I think sometimes orgs put limits on what activities you can participate in (when wearing letters) for the same reason you have to be wearing badge attire when you're wearing your pin -- because it just shows you have THAT much respect for your letters.

(2) Like 33girl was saying, we all know if you're an XYZ or not. Or at least that girl in the back knows, and she's telling that guy who's telling his girlfriend who's..... etc. Which is why some organizations (is this only in the South? anyone want to jump in?) put OTHER requirements on their letters. On my campus (in southern Virginia) 4 of the 5 sororities have rules about their members dancing on bars. NOT allowed. Period. In letters, out of letters. It's a hobag clause. :D

Thats cool, but I would asert that your campous is in Central Virginia. ;) Dead middle!

Point taken. :) (Richmond, for you onlookers.) Guess I just think of anything not "northern Virginia" as southern Virginia.

That's what you get for living in Fairfax County!

Word. :) Will IM you later.

letters...
 

I think if you are going to have a rule about not drinking in letters-fine. If everyone knows about it and agrees to it-then enforce it. But make it all letters. One sorority on my campus is not allowed to drink in letters but can in a formal T-shirt? "Letters" is defined as BIG letters on a jersey or in your pin (Which is even harder to see in a dark bar than the XYZ Crush Party in neon on your t-shirt). A socia/rush/formal t-shirt doesn't count as letters. Now that is just stupid. Letters are letters are letters. But really, anyone not greek or who doesn't know you doesn't give a crap what you do in or out of letters. If you are acting like a lady-thats what they'll think. If you are acting like a ho-thats what they'll think. And anyone who does know your letters or is greek, knows you anyway so it doesn't matter if you have on letters or not. They're paid for. Might as well wear um! ***Side note: a couple of buddies of mine actually have a running joke in their frat that if you have on letters-you are required to be holding a beer. Kinda funny.
;)

We don't drink in letters, t-shirts or badges. Where's the double standard exactly?:D

Freshman year when we used to "dorm drink," my roommate and I thought it was hilarious to drink in our billboard letters in our room where no one would see us... we took tons of pictures of our "rebellion."

Fraternity guys will likely know you are in a sorority b/c they remember your face from a Greek event, a mixer, a date/crush party, a formal, etc, or they even remember seeing you in your letters previously (like in class or something). Guys can spread rumors just as quickly as girls can about things they saw other people do (especially at parties). :rolleyes:

We are representing our particular GLO in EVERYTHING we do, letters on or not. In class, on campus, at work, at parties, at clubs/bars, at a store, while driving our cars (think GLO-related stickers/tags), or any other place imagineable, we are representing our GLOs.

You never know who's watching. The person you flicked off at the intersection yesterday could be an alumnae of your organization, a professor you'll have next semester, or one of your fraternity bros'/sorority sisters' parents. :eek:

I have a question.... Is it okay to serve alcohol while wearing letters? There is a bar that I went to at another school which is basically a "greek only" bar and both bartenders were wearing letters. Is this common?

Yup! Guys love to gossip, just like girls. They also like to hide cameras...

Quote:

We are representing our particular GLO in EVERYTHING we do, letters on or not. In class, on campus, at work, at parties, at clubs/bars, at a store, while driving our cars (think GLO-related stickers/tags), or any other place imagineable, we are representing our GLOs.

LOL - that's one reason why I haven't had anything sorority related on my car since I graduated. First, everyone in Miami is like "What is K- triangle?" and secondly...well, if you've ever driven in Miami, then you'd know how we drive! I wouldn't want to give my sorority a bad name because of my driving! ;)

Quote:

You never know who's watching. The person you flicked off at the intersection yesterday could be an alumnae of your organization, a professor you'll have next semester, or one of your fraternity bros'/sorority sisters' parents. :eek:

You never know who is reading your posts on GC too!

It depends...

There again, is the double-standard.

I think it would be a problem for a sorority member to be wearing her letters while working as a bartender, but not for a fraternity member.

ZetaLuvBunny, that TOTALLY cracked me up -- reminded me of like a year and a half ago when we'd just pinned 13 new members. I was driving through campus and honked at this new member -- you know, "Hey! Over here! Hi!" and she promply turned around, swore at me, and flipped me off.

I told a couple girls what had happened and let her sit a little scared for about a week, then pulled her aside and told her, "Look, I don't care what you were before, but you're representing Phi Mu now. Those aren't your letters. They belong to thousands of other women. Act like you deserve them."

Here you can't keep your letters if you can't figure out how to behave in them!

Most of this was just funny -- I mean, in the grand scheme of things her flipping me off & swearing was NOT a big deal. She and I get along great now and laugh about it sometimes.

At the same time, I saw her bawling out a new pledge last week for saying some pretty nasty stuff in her letters to a fraternity guy...

That story about the girl flipping you off is a good one... I would have been scared if I were her! I am glad that you guys get along!

HotDamnImAPhiMu,
That's hillarious! Good for you for telling her that. The fact that she later taught your lesson to another new member shows that she has grown into a worthy Phi Mu Lady. :D

Speaking of which- MANY times at parties I have seen girls who are members of other sororities (who shall remain nameless) wearing their letters (lavaliers, shirts, etc) while smoking and/or drinking and/or being obnoxious. It's bad enough to make a fool of yourself without letters on (b/c some people "see" your letters when they see you), but to actually be wearing letters while participating in "unladylike" behavior is just... ugh! :eek:

All of my sisters here make it a priority to not be wearing ANYTHING with ZTA on it when going to fraternity parties, whether they plan on drinking or not. Obviously some of the other sororities here don't care about their growing bad reputations. :rolleyes:

I once was even polite enough to mention to a small group of members of another sorority that they still had their lavaliers on, so they wouldn't get in trouble. Whaddya know? They just rolled their eyes at me! :rolleyes: Well they certainly don't deserve their letters or anyone else's.

Oh yeah, and at least in my chapter, if we see a sister acting out-of-line, we descretely tell her, "Your crown is on crooked". I think that's a cute, yet effective phrase since the 5pt crown is one of our symbols. :)

That's ADORABLE!!!!! I love it, I wish we had something (like the crown) we could refer to. "Your quatrafoil is crooked" just doesn't sound the same. ;)

Actually, a lot of sororities have "code words" and they differ from chapter to chapter.

I've found that a few KD chapters use KD-oriented phrases to tell someone to wise up. "You're not acting very 'Minnie-Mae'" or "She was 'Minnie-Mae'd'" last night (after one of our most prestigious members/former officer). Other chapters use part of our open motto "You're not acting very 'ta kala'" tonight.

The double standard spills over into guys wearing OUR letters at the bars. I really don't have an undying urge to wear my letters out, but the rules should really apply to everyone or no one.

Speaking of guys wearing letters, there's always that one guy who I feel doesn't own anything but his own letter shirts, every day is a new XYZ shirt. Then there's also the "freshman orientation shirt guy" who just won't throw that out!

And on another note, a good friend of mine refuses to put her letters as a sticker on her car because she's a bad driver and she doesn't want anyone to associate that with her organization. Good thinking!

I think the thrust of kdonline's original post was more along the lines of:

1. Do boys know that girls have rules about behavior in letters and out.

2. And if so, why do boys put pressure on girls to engage in behaviors that could get them in trouble in or out of letters.

Please correct me if I am wrong :) .

I think we know intellectually that you ladies have rules about drinking in letters, but that is kind of up to you. We also know intellectually that you have rules about behaviors that we may not agree with.

Meaning they might not be in our best self-interest ;)

But when it comes to the party, we just want you to come. We don't care if you wear letters or not. And we want you to be as much fun and available as possible. We want you to drink too much. We want you to do wild things. Its fun. And we figure if you don't want to do something . . you won't.

So we beg, plead, ply you with drinks, and cajole. But ultimately what you do is going to be up to you.

I am sorry I don't have an answer you probably want to hear, but I don't think that we as boys are going to act like your parents, we want to be your friends and lovers.

We just want to have fun together. And in the context of a party a lot of things that seem wierd in print, are . . . well . . . fun.
:D

I hope I answered your question honestly enough.

Re: Letters while partying - Double standard for guys/girls?
 

Also, if this happened at a party, it would be a much remembered event!

LOL! I went for a walk the other day with a good friend of mine from college, and he was wearing his frosh orientation shirt. Did I mention he's 27 years old?

I think most fraternities don't have rules about drinking/going to bars in letters, and they regard our rules about it as "stupid," "hypocritical," and "prissy" - exactly the same things they say about our formal rush. To their minds, yeah, a great many of us drink, and people know it, so it's a lame attempt at good PR while everyone knows "the truth."

And they do have a point - I mean, I generally only went to fraternity parties at the houses I knew well, or otherwise with a big group of sisters. They weren't likely to forget I was an AXD any more than I would forget that they were Phi Kaps or Theta Chis or whatever.

That's not to say I agree with the guys. I think it's a rule that attempts to balance "Sigma-like behavior," being responsible and of high character and representing your GLO well, with the partying college culture that is prevalent almost everywhere. Somehow, I doubt anyone's (inter)national HQ can prevent underage drinking altogether; this is a way of making us consider the public consequences for our private fun.

You could raise the age to join to 21. Or you could set the age to attend at any function where alcohol is present to 21 also.

Aaaaahhh, memories! :) My freshman year roommates and I used to do the same thing, but we'd put on each others letters and pose for pictures. We thought we were the most wicked little vixens! :)

I would never drink in my letters, not just because of the PR image (although, my chapter is conscious of that) but because I have a great respect for my letters, and I wouldn't feel right drinking with them on.

I don't see a problem with having rules against drinking in letters. We even have rules against other people drinking in our letters, although guys occasionally break them (when the shirt has both a fraternity's and our sorority's letters on it). It's one of my pet peeves, actually - watching guys drink in our homecoming shirt. I usually say something.

As for guys making girls do "inappropriate" things - the vast majority of the time, you can't blame a guy for that. Sure, a truly nice guy wouldn't ply some girl with drinks and then try to get her to strip on a pool table or make out with some other girl or any of those crazy stories you hear, but... girls need to take responsibility for their actions, even if they're drunk.

Furthermore, I've actually never seen any of my sisters do these sorts of things, but, if I did, I would step in. Just like many of my sisters would for me. In fact, I and any one of my sisters would get taken home for a lot less scandalous behavior than what you described.

-Alison

I very much agree with Alison that girls have to take responsibilty for themselves when they drink. I will admit, I have done some pretty stupid things drunk, but it was in essence my fault for drinking that much in the first place. I never blame anyone else for what I do drunk.

I know it is in our national policies that we cant drink in letters for Phi Sig...

In TBS we are allowed as long as we are of age and not being an idiot.

Re: Re: Letters while partying - Double standard for guys/girls?
 

Well as long as the dildo wasn't used it isn't much dfferent than sucking on a a bananna or lollipop in a suggestive fashion.

Re: Re: Re: Letters while partying - Double standard for guys/girls?
 

Lollipop's are tastier. Although I've never sucked on a dildo, so who knows?

Just my opinion....
 

Sorority girls often get stereotyped....like we all act like those "sorority girls gone wild" tapes. I think the rules exist not only out of respect for our letters, but also because the general (non greek) public sees us at bars, and seeing a drunk girl who's acting like an idiot with letters on just adds weight to the "sorority girls are _______(sluts/partiers/drunks)" image.
We don't wear our letters in a bar even if we're not drinking, and never to parties where there's alcohol.
The double standard exists everywhere - not just in the greek system. A guy can be drunk all the time and sleep with every girl he can get, and still be fine; even if he gets a rep as a player, other guys will still look up to him. A girl only has to get publicly drunk and do something stupid once, and can get a reputation or have one ruined. The problem isn't with the greek system, it's with society as whole. It just gets even more scrutiny within the greeks because a large group is easier to attack. Think about it: what makes better gossip: "there was this girl in a black skirt at the bar last night. She was such a ho." or "there was an XYZ at the bar last night...they are such hos."
That's just how I see it....

Re: Just my opinion....
 

"Society" isn't critical of girls per se. Girls are critical of other girls.

If you look at the endless threads on here about conduct, its not the boys that are calling girls names or being critical, its other girls.

In fact, when I have come across girls with reputations etc those reputations have almost always originated with other girls.

Do women even like each other? Because it seems they can be really hateful towards one another.

Re: Letters while partying - Double standard for guys/girls?
 

I think this thread is going in two different directions.

* Is there an equality issue? Yes.

* Does it really make a difference whether people are in of out of letters? Maybe, maybe not.

Some people are going to act stupid in or out of letters, as many have mentioned. Personally, I don't think the "everyone knows I am an ABC member" argument holds water all the time, because there are likely GDI's and people you don't know at the social/party/bar/etc...some people even think that not wearing letters gives them the anominity to do dumb things. For example, there was once a situation with two girls getting a little too "friendly" and naked at a party in exchange for some alcohol because they were dared by some of the guys. Now, their sorority sisters tried to talk them out of it and even offered to go buy them some alcohol so they wouldn't do it. This was clearly a situation where they were just looking to be reckless and took up the first opportunity. Of course, the guys got out cameras, spread the word about it to the whole greek system the next day, and the girls got in major trouble for it.

If you're of age, drinking responsibly, and not acting a fool, it shouldn't matter whether you're male or female or have letters on or not.

a little off topic
 

One of my friends has slept with three guys (at different times...) in the same fraternity over the past two years. We have never termed her a slut, but they have. This is beside the fact that one of these guys sleeps with every girl he can get, and one of the others sleeps around quite a bit, too. It was agreed between her and those two guys that this was "just for fun...", and she had a relationship with the other. She's the one with the bad rep, not them (even though we don't particularly like them and they really don't have a chance with the girls we hang around with, greek or otherwise).
I agree that girls do more name calling/backstabbing than boys, but we also criticize boys. The guys are often pretty guilty in starting and spreading bad reputations for girls, yet seem to be immune from criticism for the same actions from other guys.
Case in point: a guy we've nicknamed manwhore for obvious reasons. Another guy hears it and says, "No, he's not that bad, he's a good guy." Whereas, with a girl, it's more along the lines of "Oh, she's nice, but she sleeps with everyone." So a guy can get away with using girls for sex, but a girl can only sleep with her boyfriend.....that's the double standard that I see.
Sorry so long (and off topic)

My letters means a lot to me and it took a lot of time on my part to be able to wear them. (In KAO you can't wear letters until you are initiated). The letters that I wear mean a lot and I respect those. I don't even like to drink in a room that letters are in such as in my living room where my composite is or paddles. Anyway the worst is when I see guys in my letters like an event shirt and they are drinking. I know that people associate them with our chapter.

Another problem is if you have a sister that is out of control at parties. I don't care if you have letters on or not, some people know you from classes or from walking down the street and if they see you doing rude and obnoxious things at a party then you are automatically associated with our chapter and people assume that all of us are that way. I am very adiment about this subject because when I was an active we had a sister who did send out a bad reputation. I can say that she was soon no longer a sister. (For that reason and for some other legal issues)