'Branding'
 

My question is obviously about the act of branding, especially during pledging & initiations. I know that many fraternities (especially traditionally black frats)practice this, at least 'secretly'. (I have rarely heard of sororities practicing it).
While I understand the idea is that you belong to the frat and your brothers for life, I don't understand why it is still practiced. Aside from obvious reasons (anti-hazing policies, health concerns, etc.) a lot of folks believe that the concept originated from slavery. Many American slaves were branded, just as cattle, to show ownership. Since branding at least seems most prevalent among black frats, I think it is interesting that they would practice it, given its history.

I know that many people will defend the practice, but I was just curious as to how you view it in relationship to slavery and ownership.
I believe the membership owns the fraternity, not that the fraternity owns them.

-carrie

I don't actually know the exact history behind the branding. But I am in a black sorority. People don't always get brands while they are pladging and some do. Most of the people I know did it because they wanted to. I know sorors who have tattoos which represent the sorority. This has nothing to do with the slavery issue, but both are permanent. Its like wearing a shirt with your letters on it. Why do you do that? To show that you a part of your organization and demonstrate your pride. Except with the branding and tattoos, you always have your letters or symbol on you. And, it is a permanent sign which shows your lifelong devotion to your group. All and all I believe it is something to be proud of and show off and not a sign of ownership. We know that "The sorority doesn't make you, YOU make the sorority".

They do not practice branding "secretly". It is up to the individual whether they decide to be branded or not. It has nothing to do with the history of slavery, but as a permanent reminder of their love for the organization.

AKAtude,

From what I have been told (both by those who have been branded and those who haven't), it often takes place during or around initiation.
As for it's secrecy, I don't think it's anything members announce they will be doing to their governing bodies, even though these bodies have to know it goes on.

Thanks for your insight.

Actually branding does have a relationship to slavery (simply because branding was used to identify slaves and establish ownership). Current fraternity and sorority branding is done for similar reasons. Members want to show pride and of course mark their organizations on their bodies as a sign of eternal membership. I know a lot of people with brands and they all have their "hits" done after they were members, not during initiation. My father has a brand and he basicially did it because that was the thing to do. It is a trend that is not endorsed by the national organizations. It is a sign of solidarity. I think its unfortunate that people want to associate branding of free people in the 20th century with something that was done to people who were viewed as property almost two hundred years ago. Branding is simply body-art in support of an organizational affliation. Nothing more, nothing less. By the way, women get branded too! The only similarity is the act of branding, not the meaning.

Why do you relate everything to blacks and slavery? Good god get over it already. They branded cows and horses before they did anything to slaves, so are we going to relate what happens to animals now, that we treat pledges and probies like animals? This is shit, No one can be forced to do anything, remember, if someone doesn't want to do it they don't have to and nothing is held against them. If they can't stand up for what they believe in do you really want them in your greek organization?

Here we go again!!!

AKAtude and Alabama.
Thank you for explaining to these cretonnes the meaning of this ritual. The bottom line, as you have put it, is that it is body art, symbolizing our eternal membership and love for our organization. It has absolutely nothing to do with slavery. And those of you drawing a line of comparison to the slavery practices should be ashamed to call yourselves educated. That means your ass Turtle Boy. Peace to those who can "feel" what I mean.

Turtle Ass
Its not a practice of the organization as a whole, and neither is pearcing ears or getting tattoos or anything else done for its cosmetic effect. So therefore it does not have to be reported to the governing body.

Damn. SOME PEPOLE ARE JUST STUPID!!!

The WCPB
The WCPB
The WCPB K

west coast pretty boy-

For your information, the reason I brought this up was because of a conversation with some friends who happen to be AFRICAN-AMERICAN GREEKS AND PERSONALLY THINK IT REFLECTS THE ATTITUDE OF OWNERSHIP associated with slavery. I could care less if you want to brand your body in 50 places to show what a diehard fratboy you are... it's a shame you have to cling to your frat so much that you can't exercise any free thought.

I think it is an interesting hypothesis about the act of branding, so I wanted to hear some other opinions. I expected folks to defend it, and I just wondered if they saw the same association or not.

I also think it is great to have pride in your GLO, and if that is one way you want to show your pride, more power to you. (As long as it is your decision).

To the rest of you folks who responded,
thank you for acting like mature adults & speaking w/ open minds. I guess on the west coast that is considered ignorance or something.

West Coast Pretty Boy--
ROCK ON!

To everyone else that started this crap...

Why does everything have to do with slavery? It ended last millennium. Get over it. You weren't affected by it, so stop using it as a cop-out. People started branding to show their LIFE-LONG assosiation with their GLO. If you can't handle the fact that when you join GLO's you are in it for life (or at least the ones that mean anything) then you shouldn't have even started the post.

Oh, by the way, I am on the east coast...I guess it is everywhere that people aren't mature, huh?

Actually, if you talk to any Sociology or Political Science students (among others) you will find out that slavery indeed *does* affect us even today.

To give you an example..
When U.S. slaves were first 'free' they lived in forced segregation. Then folks like Rosa Parks began fighting that idea. And there was the beginning of the civil rights movement. But at the same time, there were the faction of blacks that agreed with Malcolm X that blacks and whites *should* be segregated (not to mention all of the white folk who felt this way). Anyways, as a result of all of this, African-Americans and white Americans lived in separate parts of town. Since African-Americans hadn't had the chance to start building their own free lives for long, they naturally had fewer marketable skills, had harder times finding good paying jobs, little acceptance into the work force, other than w/ other African Americans, etc. So they could only afford to live in certain areas. To this day (all of this is on a national level, and GENERALIZATIONS), blacks live in lower income housing than whites, get paid less (even for the same work!), and have fewer opportunities. Their overall socio-economic status is a direct result of their being slaves 200 years ago. And that affects ALL of us, in good and bad ways. There are of course exceptions, but this is just the ways it is.

The same kind of think is true when you look at ANY minority group (Native Americans, Hispanics, etc.).

No, it isn't affecting me like it would have had I been alive in 1850, but I still live with the results of it daily, as do the rest of you. I'm glad that we are a generation of Americans who are ready to look forward and *change* the current situation, but you can't deny that it exists.

I know its a shiity topic to relate everything to slavery. But it is important to understand our history so that we don't repeat the mistakes.

I actually understand where each one of you is coming from. I am a PROUD member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. (a BGLO), and I have been engaged in conversations regarding this very topic. As the sister organization of Omega Psi Phi Fraternity (of which branding is an attribute), I have pondered the significance of branding myself. On the one hand, I agree that, given the history of branding slaves (Yes, I'm bringing up slavery!), one would wonder why an African American would voluntarily brand himself. But, on the other hand, I can understand why it's important as a means of showing the lifelong commitments we've made to our organizations.

I founded a Black Greek Council at my alma mater because the BGLO's on my campus were not recognized and appreciated for their uniqueness, protocol, traditions and intake processes. When I began the legwork to "break away" from the IFC and Pan-Hell governing bodies, many people accused the BGLOs of perpetuating segregation. The fact is and always will be that WE ARE DIFFERENT! When we become members of our organizations, we vow to be lifelong, active, members forever engulfed in our culture and in service to our people. I can truly understand why one would want to acknowledge that attachment with a brand. And, have you ever thought that perhaps the use of a brand symbolizes the pain, bloodshed and stuggle of our ancestors? Maybe it's our way of "connecting" with them and remembering what they went through and where we came from. I personally am not disgusted by or pulled against branding because white slave owners used the method to show possession of their slaves. I am simply reminded of my heritage and of the huge distance my people have travelled over the years.

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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

the411-

THANK YOU for finally answering my original inquiry--> you are the first person who actually related how/why/if slavery had any impact on your thinking of branding, and then explained it. And I can definately understand your opinion. Thanks for the insight!

411 and SilverTurtle. I am in an IFC frat, and my chapter does practice branding for *BROTHERS* who want one. Notice, that it is something completely up to the person after pledging. I never gave a thought to the aspect of slavery when I got mine. I thought of the heritage of the act in my GLO chapter. That is the only history that matters. I thought of how much my GLO meant to me, and how much I wanted to show that. I haven't regretted it to this day. The thing that worries me most about this topic however is 411's comment that when people complained about them pulling out of IFC/Panhel that it was justified because they were different. This shows the double standard in todays society. If it were an all white glo pulling out then it would be on the news and broadcast as the most ugly incident of racism in years. I agree with Silver Turtle that racism and slavery still have a negative effect on todays society, but it's effect is two-fold, although it is rarely seen because AA on White racism is often looked upon as no big deal or even appropriate by society. At my school, which I'll call CDU, there are two paegants. one for MIss CDU, and one for Miss Black CDU. Last year both were black, but why was the second even necesssary? Greek life in general is dying in this country. It's time for blacks and whites and everyone else to quit squabbling about petty differences to get together and make sure we all have someplace to go back to 20 years from now on homecoming.

Scott

Scott,

You are echoing those same ignorant responses we received when we began the groundwork for establishing the Black Greek Council. Before educating you, let me first ask you-- How much do you REALLY know about BGLOs and how/why they differ?!?!?!?

At my university, all fraternities and sororities were governed by IFC and PanHell, who received annual budgets of $8,000 and $6,000 respectively (I attended a very small school with 2,000 students). Those funds were distributed to GLOs based on membership size to fund Rush and GreekWeek activities. I trust that, being a member of the greek community, you know that the membership intake processes for BGLOs are very DIFFERENT (yes, I said "different") than the intake processes for traditionally/predominantly white fraternities and sororities. Our process is much like a college application process, and what we call "rush" is, at most, a 2 to 3-hour informational for interested individuals to receive necessary info in order to pursue membership. See, we don't do bids and have our prospects visit houses-- our prospects seek and pursue only ONE sorority or frat based on the research they've done prior to the rush/informational. So, by coming to the rush, they are announcing, publically, that they want to join our organization. There is no party, no booze, no socializing-- we use the rush as a means of outling the criteria for membership, anti-hazing policies and giving deadlines for the application process.

SO... with this in mind, and because our organizations tend to be quite small in number (it is not uncommon for a BGLO to have only 1 or 2 members in a given year), the IFC and PanHell on my campus was not giving us ANY of the money that was to be distributed among all organizations. And, although we voiced our complaints on many occasions, the answer we were consistantly given was that because we didn't participate in the kind of rush activities the white GLOs did, we could not get the money, since the money was alloted only for that purpose.

When it came time for GreekWeek, we faced the same issues. The money for GreekWeek was to support the many social functions the white GLOs sponsored, at which alcohol was allowed. As a part of our strict protocol and traditions, collegiate BGLOs are NOT to sponsor events at which alcohol is served. So, because of the nature of many of the Greek Week activites, we (the BGLOs) had no other choice but to decline from participating because we were never able to get funding from IFC and PanHell for the kinds of activities we wanted to sponsor.

BGLOs are community service oriented, with social life being LAST on the "to do" list. Social life was first on that list at MY school, and IFC and PanHell, since they consisted of 98% members of white GLOs refused to recognize that DIFFERENCE. So, we petitioned to established our own governing body for fiscal and political reasons, and NOT because we were black!!! This was a business decision-- we weren't getting any money because we didn't do the same things the other groups were doing.

You, Scott, have a lot to learn about what it means to be DIFFERENT. I am so sick and tired of people refusing to recognize that if a white person and a black person stand side by side, they are still DIFFERENT no matter how you look at them. BGLOs are predominately black and are committed to service to and uplift of African American people. If your organization does not share those characteristics then we are DIFFERENT. You are acting as though there is something wrong with being different. You jumped to the conclusion that we broke away from IFC and PanHell because we were black, when that was simply not the case. With a Black Greek Council, we received a budget of $6000 and were able to do much more. We finally had a representative in our student government (we NEVER had that as a part of IFC and PanHell), and were able to fund many more community service projects than ever before. In addition, we could now participate in Greek Week because we had our own budget. We were also able to co-sponsor activities with other GLOs and student organizations-- we could never do that before because we couldn't get the money. We could invite speakers and attend greek leadership conferences all over the world.

The only way we could get the approval for the establishment was to have the support of IFC and PanHell. They (along with Order of Omega) backed us 100% because they understood that we were not able to get funding because of the DIFFERENCES between the intakes processes, focus, protocol and traditions of our organizations!!!

I was in a conversation the other day, and a white male told me that he is colorblind (doesn't see race). I think anyone who is colorblind is racist because as a black female, when you see me I DO want you to see African American. That is a part of who I am, and to not see it is to not see me. The fact is that BGLOs are indeed different-- not just in the demographics of members, but in many other ways. Just because you choose to get a brand doesn't mean that it is for the same reason that a black member of Omega Psi Phi or Alpha Phi Alpha chooses to get one. He might really be doing it for cultural reasons, while you may not.

I do not appreciate how you've associated our establishment of a black greek council with racism. If a white GLO decided to do the same, for the reasons we did, then I would be in support just as IFC, PanHell and Order of Omega were of our initiative. There was never any "squabbling over petty differences" and I am offended that you consider the differences and uniqueness of BGLOs to be "petty". You, sir, and those who share your sentiments, are the the reason racism is still a disease in this country-- you haven't bothered to seek the understaning you need in order to RECOGNIZE and APPRECIATE the value of our DIFFERENCES!!! You are content to watch everyone assilimilate to the popular culture, while I am content to cherish all those varying and contrasting attributes that make us a diverse people. I have MANY, MANY friends in white GLOs, and I ENJOY learning more about them and what makes one DIFFERENT from the other. Surely you don't think Fiji is the same as Sig-Ep is the same as Beta is the same as Delta Chi DO YOU?!?!?!? They are each very DIFFERENT, just as Tri Delt DIFFERS from A Chi O DIFFERS from Pi Phi! FACE IT--Black Greek-Lettered Organizations DIFFER from white GLOs!!! That does NOT mean we are perpetuating racism or segregation-- that simply means that we are NOT THE SAME. You seem to be the one who thinks that there is something wrong with being DIFFERENT!!!



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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

Well, I am not one to argue. I hate it. I definatly see your point 411 and you are/were correct in pointing out the "differances".

Unfourtunatly, I do not have a good understanding of BGLO's. There weren't any at my school. I have no idea how they work, and I really can't say anything about them because I am completely ignorant when it comes to the subject. However, I do know about NPC sororities.

I am not arguing, but I noticed some things in your posts you mentioned about the sororities and fraternities on you campus. First, you mentioned that they drank during greek week. Huge no-no! I know that NO sorority is supposed to use funds for alcohol. Big time no-no and sororities can suffer for it if it is found out. So, what the sororities on you campus were doing is not something that Panhel is aware of i'm sure.

We are also very community service oriented. Each sorority has a national philanthropy. My sorority's is to aid the seeing and hearing impaired. A lot of funds that are raised go to Galludett University in DC. which is a University for the seeing and hearing impaired. We also have a chapter of our sorority there. Even though we have a national philanthropy, that is not the only thing that we support. My chapter has a streach of highway that we clean and pick up litter from every semester. We hold halloween parties for underprivilaged children (which we do in conjunction with the TKE chapter at our school). We go and bake cookies and teach sign language on St. Patty's day at a local day care. These are just some of the annual things we do. We also do random acts as well throughout the year.

I do see your point that we are different. There are many many differences between what you had to say about your procedures and our procedures. You are right in saying that there are differences. However, what scott had to say did have some truth to it. Some of what he had to say was in disagrement with what you had to say, but he is right in some aspects.

There is a difference between you and I. You are a black female, and I am a white female. That is only color. Scott was right in asking why there are two pagents for Miss whateverU? Why? I certainly don't understand it. Maybe I'm nieve, Maybe I don't understand. I'm not saying that I do, but this is what I see. If the roles were reversed and there was a Miss whateverU pagent and a Miss White whateverU pagent, what would the response be? Do you think it would be the same? I really don't see that it would. Hey, I'll be the first to admit it when I'm wrong, i'm not the type of person who defends themselves to the end even if I'm wrong. I realize that being an African American is different from being a white american. But our rights are the same and people have fought long and hard for equil rights between the sexes and for the different races. So why is that it is ok that there is a Black Miss whateverU and not for a white Miss whateverU. If there is a reason, please enlighten me. Our organizations are different based on government, but no matter what, you can not tell me that we are different people. Yes, your cultural back ground is different than mine and your color is different than mine, but we are still both people living in the same nation with the same rights. Maybe I don't know what I'm talking about. I came from a small town where there were no more than about 4 black students in my whole high school at one time. Even though I came from a predominantly white town, I was always taught that people are people no matter what color they are. Yes, they are different on the outside and yes they may come from a different culture, but they are still the same as me on the inside. People have fought for equil rights for all races, so now, I ask you, do you want to be treated different because you are African American? When I meet you on the street, should I treat you different than my white friends? Not with disrespect, but differently? I always thought that people of different races wanted to be treated the same. Am I wrong?

You are right that BGLO's and GLO's are different, but we as people, are we really that different?

Please take into consideration that I am not trying to offend anyone, but I do want to clear this issue up. I am mearly trying to gain a little understanding.

Mikki
Delta Zeta Alum
Kappa Mu Chapter
Sigma Alpha Iota Alum
Eta Tau Chapter

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"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

I, too, understand what scott was trying to say as it related to the campus queens issue. The reason I chose not to address that was because the topic I was trying to stick to was that of "branding". I think it is ridiculous that any campus chooses 2 campus queens on the basis of race, but I did not like how he related his issues with that with my justification for establishing a black greek council at my school-- it made no sense to correlate two topics that have nothing to do with one another. I get frustrated when people try to bring race into every issue in which blacks are involved. Just because a BGLO breaks away from a predominately white governing body, doesn't mean it did so because it was black-- that was the point I was trying to drive home to scott.

I agree that many white fraternities and sororities are committed to community service through philanthropy and "hands on" service. In fact, my chapter of Delta Sigma Theta has worked with numerous white sororities on many, many service projects geared towards people of all ethnic and economic backgrounds. I also know of many white sororities and fraternities that mandate dry rushes and parties, just as we do. So, I was not accusing all white frats and sororities of being alcohol focused. However, of the fraternities and sororities at MY alma mater, only a small few choose not to have a dry rush, and IFC and PanHell were/are well aware of the presence of alcohol at their activities. Those of us who have taken leadership roles in an organization know that there are many, many ways to manipulate the system and use money illegally. I cannot prove that university money was used to purchase alcohol, I just know that it was. Personally, I have no problems with that-- I just wanted money for what our BGLOs wanted to do. The fact still remained that, because we did not have the same kind of rush as the white organizations did, and because we had incredibly small memberships, we were never able to get our hands on any of the money in the IFC and PanHell budgets.

The issue that scott brought up was in no ways related to my reasoning for establishing a BGLO. If anything, I felt that he used my situation to support his stand against having 2 queens at his school. He has a valid argument againt that, but not against me for justifying my move from IFC and PanHell by arguing that BGLOs are different. Personally, I think that it is stupid to have ONE college/homecoming queen. It's just another silly popularity contest-- I thought we were past that stage when we left high school. But, that is my personal opinion with which I don't expect anyone else to agree.

To answer your question "Do you want to be treated differently because you are African American?" my answer is "No!" However, I DO want my race to be acknowledged, respected and valued just like that of a white or woman. Treating me the same should not mean that you look past my skin color, and in many ways that's what equality has come to mean. I don't want any advantages or disadvantages, mistreatment or special-treatment-- I just want to be appreciated for being black! Nowadays people expect that, because we've faught for equality and times have changed, blacks should be content to have the same things in life that whites have. But, the painful reality is that blacks are STILL fighting for equality. Just because things aren't like they were a few decades ago, doesn't mean we've arrived as a people. I still get followed around when I walk into department stores because people think I'm going to steal something. I still get pulled over when I'm driving through a white, upper middle class neighborhood. Just a few days ago, my boyfriend was grabbed by a cop because he "resembled someone" the cop was looking for (later we disovered that the guy the cop was looking for was much lighter, thinner and about a foot taller than my boyfriend is). My skin color has been the cause of a great deal of unfair treatment, and probably will be for a LONG time-- that is, until people learn to value me and all of the characteristics that come with me. People say they treat blacks the same, but they don't, and I doubt they ever will. Again, I am not looking for any ill-treatment or special treatment, only fair treatment. I want to be treated fairly, but I want you to respect, appreciate and value my uniquenesses and differences in the process.

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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

Alright. Lots to discuss. 1st off comes the easy one. I'm sorry 411. You are right that I jumped the gun and assumed that you were separating from Panhel due to race. For that I apologise, but my points still ring true after reading your responses. I'll get to that in a bit.
2nd- The reason we have a campus queen paegant is that it is sponsored by a sorority as a fundraiser for special olympics. Miss Black WhateverU is run by a local BGLO in support of UNCF(United Negro college fund).
3rd- the stuff about me being the reason that racism still exists. Hold the friggin boat here. I'm ignorant?! I'm a racist?! My main point wasn't meant to be solely about the self removal of your org. from panhel, but the very existance of your organization to begin with. Okay, you are different. You get your members through a different process, you concentrate on philanthropy and public service. good, laudable goals, but you choose your people from a small pool because it is restricted to one race. Talk all you want about how you would be on the front lines applauding me if I started an all white fraternity based along identical lines, because anyone thats been anywhere in this world knows that if I did that to "be appreciated" for being white, I would have 18 lawsuits from the NAACP in the first weekend alone. I would be all over the news as the second coming of hitler and you know it. I would never do this. My fraternity has 27 members right now. There are blacks whites hispanics an asian a guy from innercity Philly, and two guys from britain. Our diversity defines us and makes us stronger. I just get sick and tired of people who are never happy with anything. You said, "Nowadays people expect that, because we've faught for equality and times have changed, blacks should be content to have the same things in life that whites have." I ask you what is wrong with that? Isn't that the exact thing the Civil rights movement was meant to do? It's not perfect, I fully acknowledge that, but the problem goes 2 ways. This is the point of my post. The very existence of your organization, as well as black only organizations of all kinds, are a slap in the face of all the progress that blacks have made as a people.
You mentioned being watched in stores. You think I don't get watched? I'm younger than 30. People expect me to steal and vandalize and do all kinds of nonsense I would never do. Am I going to go nuts? NO! Time is the only thing that can work the final nuts and bolts of true equality into place. The disturbing trend I see is this double standard. I know many people see it but not alot of people actually conure up the guts to say anything because it is considered taboo. If this labels me a racist in your eyes, so be it, but consider this:
I am a part of a multi-racial fraternity(contrary to your post, there are NO white only GLOS) who participates in a philanthropy to help a childrens hospitol where children of ALL RACES receive care.
You are a part of a single race sorority, whose main goals are the promotion of one race.
Y'know, come to think about it, we are different, but think twice before you blame me for the perpetuation of racism again, because that is a shroud which seems more befitting of you.

Scott

KDRSCOTT,
First of all, I want to say that I've been following this interesting discussion. I fully support my soror 411 and need to give you little clarification on BGLOs membership. First of all we may be predominantly African American Sororities and Fraternities but we do not limit our membership based on race. I'm a proud member of Delta Sigma Theta Sorority Inc. and I know from first hand experience that our sorority as well as the other BGLOS have caucasian, asian, hispanic and other ethnicities as members. Why? Because there is no race requirement on academics and community service which are taken seriously. Lastly, I want to comment on the "slap in the face statement about BGLO existence" and racism. I find it insulting that you would say that (but I also realize that you don't know much about BGLOs)our organizations retard African-American progress when its evident on a daily basis from members that serve in political offices, religious offices, teachers and professors in the classroom and parents that are members that we are as progress as well as any other predominantly African-American organization. We were working for progress throughout the wars, depression, recession, and still in the 21st century there is still more work to do. Now, I want to say this about racism----Racism benefits nobody! This meant as a general comment.

you are right, racism does not benifit anyone. I wish to God that there wasn't such a thing. This whole discussion is why! I believe in equality for the sexes, different races, different religions, etc. I believe that everyone should have a fighting chance in this nation. Like I stated before, I don't want to argue, and I don't want to see anyone else argue. But everyone, step back from your soap boxes for a minute and look at what you are writing! After all this talk about racism and equil rights--shouldn't we as greeks be standing together as greeks? Not as separate orginizations. We basically have the same goals--to make this world and country a better place. Stop fight about what is right and what is wrong and what you see and what you don't see. I have been blessed or cursed (I can't decide) with the ability to step back from every situation that come upon me and look at every side. I see everyone's points. Why don't you step back and try to look from the others eyes? Try to see what they see. It is important to understand each other in order for us to unite. Stop fighting and work together!
Scott, if you see a double standard in society, that is your beef with society. If you see it with a BGLO, the people you are talking to are the wrong people! Take it up with the founders. These people are members of an orginization that they believe in, just like you. Hate to say it, but do you think that the founding fathers of MOST GLO's would have let people from different races in their fraternities or sororities? Not in the early 1900's. Most of the GLO's founders were probably racist to some degree. I'm white and I am willing to admit that. Your fraternity, I hate to say, is not in the majority. Most GLO's are predominantly white. At my old school, we didn't have a single person in any sorority that was not white (that I can remember). We were a small predominantly white school, but there were no BGLO's at all and we did have people from all walks of life on our campus. GLO's have worked to change this around the world and country. But in all actuality, most GLO's have no room to talk.

Mikki

SCOTT,

My soror responded to you just as I would have, but I feel compelled to reiterate the fact that our membership is very much OPEN. In fact, I'd venture to say we have MORE non-black members in our organizations than you have non-whites in yours. We don't set quotas, and we don't seek our members out, they seek US out. African Americans have ALWAYS been an accepting race of people, but I don't think that history and the present prove that such is the case for the white race. The fact that racism still exists proves that.

The only reason most of our organizations were even founded in the first place was because white fraternities and sororities REFUSED to allow us in their organizations. In fact, they weren't too thrilled that we were even allowed to attend college at all, much less with them. Alpha Phi Alpha Fraternity, Incorporated was founded in 1906 on the campus of Cornell University-- a white college. Had those so-called "multi-racial [fraternities]" allowed black members, then there would have been no need for its establishment. Your comment that "The very existence of your organization, as well as black only organizations of all kinds, are a slap in the face of all the progress that blacks have made as a people," proves that you haven't taken so much as 1 minute to find out anything about BGLOs. If you had an ounce of knowledge about our histories, you'd know that we were established during some of the most racially segregated times in U.S. history BEFORE the Civil Rights movement! You are suggesting that, because times have changed and blacks have received many of those rights we faught for, our organizations should simply cease to exist. Again, I reiterate that you obviously know nothing about our purpose! Of course you, a privileged white male, think that everything's A-OK, but as a black female, let me assure you that blacks are STILL fighting for equality. So when you ask "what is wrong with that? Isn't that the exact thing the Civil rights movement was meant to do?" I have to say NO-- the Civil Rights movement was about equality-- something blacks still do NOT have. Listen to yourself--even YOU are suggesting that our organizations should die out or mesh into yours because "who needs em, anyway?" (ISN'T THAT WHAT YOU REALLY WANT TO SAY?) If your organizations have the right to exist, then isn't it only fair (i.e. EQUAL) that our organizations have the right to exist without having to prove why we do? Predominantly Black organizations are ALWAYS the targets of criticism. What is so equal about that? You are suggeting that it is wrong for us to form sisterhoods and brotherhood with people who share/appreciate African American culture and are committed to the uplift of African American people. You do not need to be black to enjoy such a familyhood, nor do you need to be black to want to see conditions improve for African American people. Elenor Roosevelt is a member of a black sorority-- did you know that? As a member of the AMERICAN community, you SHOULD be dedicated to ANY cause intended to help your fellow man. Instead, you are criticizing the existance of organizations who do more for the black community in one year than your fraternity has probably done since its inception. You should be glad that it's being done and not give a d@#! who's doing it! And, just so you'll know, our organizations do not just help people in the African American community-- we help people (black, white, latino, Asian, Native American, etc.) who are IN NEED. And, I never said that your organizations are "white only." I have MANY, MANY friends who are members of non-NPHC fraternal organizations, and I am fully aware that their membership is just as open as ours, so please don't assume that I am ignorant about other organizations. Unlike you, I have done my research...

I am far from being a racist, and if you knew me, you'd feel really silly for the accusations you made in your response. I am very proud of my race, heritage and culture, but I am also a Christian woman who loves PEOPLE-- ALL people. I don't criticize anyone's need to enjoy and enrich his/her heritage as you've done of mine. Instead, I join in their celebration as a means of learning more about who they are and about the customs they hold dear. You haven't even taken the time to research NPHC organizations, so you don't seem to care much about celebrating black culture. While you may indeed NOT be a racist, I think forum readers will agree that you have inadvertently adopted a racist way of thinking as it relates to African American history and culture. I can not blame you for that-- it is a problem that plagues American society. However, I hope that, should you choose to respond again, you've done the necessary research about BGLOs to fully educate yourself on issue.



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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

And, by the way...

How the heck did we go from 'branding' to this?!?!? Maybe someone whould start a new topic if they feel this one should continue...

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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

Enought about all this. . .I'm tired of the subject. People hold different ethics through out the world and we are never going to settle on what is "right" and what is "wrong." This is just another one of those discussions that is a never ending story. Racism will probably never be erased within any of our lifetimes--if ever. So we all should just go on believing what we believe, but not stepping on anyone elses beliefs.

OK! Now that I got that off my chest--Branding. I thought about getting a brand instead of a tatoo. Then I decided that I don't think that I could take it--so I got the tatoo. Goodness! It hurt like h*ll! Took 4 hrs! I was all good, then I got the transfer put on (my back), the guy got all the equipment set up and all the inks out (he did it as a house call). He decided to do a little test strip with out ink so I would know what it felt like. After about a milimeter--I screamed in pain. Then it took me 3 of the 4 hours just to get up the courage for him to actually START the tatoo! The actual tatoo only took about an hour to do--I kept making him stop because it hurt so bad. I had it done right on my spine--he said that's one of the most painful places to get a tatoo--I BELIEVE HIM! Anyway, has nothing to do with branding, but that's my tatoo story.

Mikki

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"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

411,

You are right that education is the key to many subjects. We must educate each other in order for our society to be a better place, BUT I do not think that this is the place for it. This Greechat Network was designed for greeks to come and bring education in the lines of the greek system. Not to change society. We should be dicussing thing that involve our particular greek orginizations. AND--we as greeks should not be fighting over race (we are all supposed to be part of orginizations that accept people of all races, religions, and walks of life) we should be working together to make ALL greek systems better--not trying to solve the worlds problems. AND if we are trying to help solve the worlds problems--it shouldn't be done talking on a internet forum page, we should be doing it physically in our neighborhoods and in our schools. AND if we are doing that--THEN we can talk about the ACTIONS we are taking in our community to solve the worlds problems--NOT voicing our own personal opinions. This forum has no place for discussions on religion, race, sexes, or any ethical topic. The only thing this forum has a place for is discussion on events, fundraisers, helpful hints, etc. about greek life orginizations. The only thing discussions like this will bring is the shutting down of this network. Too many people here have different opinions and if everyone argues--nobody will want to come back. But hey, this is only my *opinion* http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

Mikki,

I agree that the discussion should be squashed because it has no place in this forum, particularly not under the "branding" topic. However, I think the biggest problem is that we (as a society) are always so quick to leave it alone and stop talking about it. Racism is a VERY sensitive subject, especially when people of different races are the conversationalists. As much as I disagree with many of the things Scott said, I learn a little more about him, myself and the issues of race and racism each time I read his responses. And, I'd like to think that he's learning something useful as he reads mine. Education and increased knowledge are good things, aren't they? How can we learn unless we share? The reason the problem exists and the reason people are so ignorant is because the subject is too touchy and we feel more comfortable not talking about it. I am very appreciative of Scott for being honest and blunt with me. While neither of us will probably change the beliefs or views of the other, I think that we expressed ourselves honestly, sincerely and thoroughly, and I hope that we walked away with at least an ounce more wisdom and understanding about one another (i.e. about black and white race) than we had before. If we both did, then we both just took a huge step towards the war against racism.

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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

Point well taken. However, it seems that the differences in our organizations (BGLOs vs non-BGLOs) are even more apparent. BGLOs are very much community-oriented and much less focused on social activities. While we do party and have social functions, that aspect of our organizations is highly de-emphasized. So, while agree that this topic doesn't belong in THIS forum, I disagree that "This forum has no place for discussions on religion, race, sexes, or any ethical topic. The only thing this forum has a place for is discussion on events, fundraisers, helpful hints, etc. about greek life orginizations." As members of sisterhoods and brotherhoods, topics of race, sex, and ethnicity are highly relevant-- maybe not for YOUR sorority/fraternity, but very much so in BGLOs. We are professional organization committed to community uplift, awareness and improvement in education, economics, politics, mental health, and physical health, both nationally and internationally. So, this forum is what we choose to make it-- clearly it is a social outlet for some greeks, but not for all. I get the hint that you'd appreciate it if I stopped talking about race in here, so I will. Some folks just aren't ready to learn...


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Pi Kappa
#3 SPR97
QUINTESSENCE

I don't think you should make the assumption that I don't want to learn just because I said that I didn't think this was the place to solve the world's problems. After all my posts, I don't see how you can even justify that. If we were discussing how racism was afecting our greek orginizations, then I would be all for it, but right now that is not the case.

A man named Fred came in this network about 2 months ago and started talking about religion. He started a lot of chaos and nothing came out of it except a lot of fighting. He was eventually banned from the site. All it took was one person coming here and starting a bunch of s*it. All it would take is for one person to come in here and say the wrong thing about this topic and we would be back in the same place.

I do not come here for a "social outlet" and I do not see that from anyone else. I come here because I believe that I can offer a lot of help, information, and insight into issues involving the greek system. If you had read any of my other posts in any other forum, you would have realized this.

It has been gereralized that GLO's only exist for partying. Well, that IS JUST a generalization. We do not exist for parties, and our No. 1 priority IS community service. We do have parties, but that is not why we are here. Nobody seems to recognize the good things that GLO's do. My old school for example: If it wasn't for the greek system there would be no homecoming, no intermural activities, no athletic support, no real student government--because nobody cares but the greeks--and we are the ones who run it. These are just a few examples of the things we do on campus. We also focus on community service and national philanthropies. If we existed just for parties, I don't think that our organizations would be over 100 (some) years old. We would have died out a long time ago.

If you want to discuss this topic, that is fine. I see it being more constructive to this site if it is related to the greek system. That is why we are here, to discuss greek life and the issues that concern it. Racism is a serious issue for today's society, but in this forum it has no place unless we are discussing how it relates to our greek system.

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"I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special."

--Julia Roberts
(Steel Magnolias)

Visit me at:
http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html
and
http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml

the411,

Hello Soror, please check your email...I just sent you one. However, I also wanted to applaud you for taking the time to explain and enlighten other readers on this thread about about the differences between BGLO and GLO. I also applaud your initiative in starting the Council at your school...but then again what else should I expect from a Lovely Lady of DST!!!

That is a great point. Racism is a topic that will endure for a long time, and it is really hard to judge someone's beliefs over the internet- that's the beauty of the internet- anonymity! You have to really know a person before you can judge them - even though you really shouldn't judge anyone to begin with! I guess that's the Lord's job.
Anyway, on the topic of "branding" a note to anyone who proceeds in doing this, please make sure that you are using a clean brand and know exactly how the members are going to do it. We don't participate in that as sororities at my University, but some of the girls do get frat letters on their derriere.:EEK: I had a friend who ended up in the hospital because it was done with an unclean brand. It just saves the frat from coming under suspicion by the university if you do things safely! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif Good day to all.

I just wanted to know wevryone's opinion on tatoos. Or is that off topic....lol

blu_theatrics..

I'm assuming you mean tattoos related to your GLO, BGLO, LGLO so I think that's kind of on topic http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

I would never get my fraternity's letters or crest (or motto... etc,) tattooed on me out of respect for those things and what they represent to and for me.

I don't know that I ever would, but have no problem with, getting tattoos of symbols, mascots, etc. as long as these aren't things that would immediately associate me with my GLO. For exapmle, one of my fraternity's symbols is a yellow rose. If I have that tattooed on me, you're not going to know why until I tell you.

My reasoning is that there are times that you wouldn't be wearing your letters (such as if you're out drinking with friends.. things like this). If you have a visable tattoo that immediately associates you with XYZ, then it reflects that entire organization. (I think someone mentioned this on another thread also). This is another reason I wouldn't get my letters, crest, etc. as a tattoo.

My love for my GLO should show without those permanent marks, through my actions, conversations, and aid to the organization.

Of course, this is how I see things. I have seen people get their letters and such tattooed on them, and I can respect that they do this out of love and pride for their org.

Incidentally, I'm getting my first tattoo in a couple of weeks, and I'm geeked!!! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif (And it has nothing to do with my fratenrity).



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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity
Phi chapter

I didn't read everything about racism and this and that. To answer the original branding question. It had little to do with slavery and more to do with African scarification rituals. These rituals showed which societies an individual belonged to just like our brands do today

Maybe that will be my christmas present to the fraternity, I will have someone make a brand for my fraternity! Wow, that would be cool. maybe I could get it on my shoulder or something.

Easy E www.angelfire.com/va2/gammachi

7BA-

I've never heard that before, but it makes a lot of sense. And I can see how it would be quite sacred to members of certain orgs. if it's viewed in that light. Thanks for a different perspective.

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SilverTurtle@greekchat.com
Phi Beta Fraternity
Phi chapter

As a proud Royal Purple and Old Gold, wearing member of Omega Psi Phi fraternity inc. I believe that it is essential for me to speak on this topic. I have been branded. First of all what makes my brands any different than the tattoos which I can almost guarantee that some of you possess. I was branded of my own free will and accord. I am a man, along with that I am an American. I believe that I do reserve the right to express myself or do anything else I choose as long as I do not injure or offend others ( and I do also believe that I can offend someone if I choose). Branding for me was a way to express to myself and others, the true sense of love and esteem which I possess for my fraternity. As for the slavery issue. I do believe that during those times most slaves had to do the will and desire of their "master", I am no slave. I practice my own wants and desires. During the time of such unfortunate pain and humiliation, slaves also had to eat what was available for them. Green were the weeds that grew in the "masters" gardens. Pig's feet and chitterlings were often discarded pieces of pork after the "masters" family had cut the choice pieces for their own elaborate feasts. Then in this case why is it that I will always enjoy the scrumptous "soul food" dinners which my mother and gradmother continue to prepare. Not to mention the reason the church is such an essential part of the black heritage, is because during the time of the slaves, the only refuge or enjoyment which we as black people were allowed was the family like atmosphere which the church provided to a people who had often know one else to turn to. I know that I have and never will turn my back on my church or heritage.

I've read a few posts about being branded while "pledging" or being on line.......

I have NEVER herad of this.

QUESTION: What happens if that person gets branded and then DROPS??!!