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Wood
Anyone on here ever get any wood while they were pledging? I know I did. How much did you get? In my frat we call it "getting in the cut". What are you opinions?
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I hope everyone took wood in their process. It should be a big part of journey. I truely believe that my frat is hardest pledging org out there. That sense of pledging hard draws you closer to brotherhood because you know that you do have something in common with this man besides just being in the same frat as them.
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Frat I can see things quite the same. wood was very much apart of my process. I agree we do pledge pretty got damm hard! I recently posted a new topic entitled "ZPBS paper shoutout" on the zeta board, so that respective frat and soror from all over who still get down could post whose paper and whose not, so that if you come across these individuals you know not to fuk with them. The Zetas was swole at me boy cuz not only did i get a mass hate mail as a result, I also got the post taken down in a matter of days by whoever runs this shyt. It's good to know that someone still appreciates a good process out there. GOMAB the right way!
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Let me jump in here and defend our Sorors. The Soror who moderates the board can give you the exact reson your post was taken down but I'm willing to bet she did because it was offensive and it was indiscreet. The members who frequent the Zeta board on this website would like it to be positive so that ALL Sorors, Frat, and Friends who want to post do so and feel welcome.
GOMAB the right way is BROTHERHOOD, SCHOLARSHIP, AND SERVICE. NOT a 'process'! ------------------ Strivin' for Z-Phi-B! |
Well, first of all I couldn't tell you what "wood" is, but I would assume it means paddling. No, we don't. My chapter has the big sisters decorate a paddle for their little sisters to hang on their walls, but it is in no way used for beatings or paddlings. If is for decoration. Besides, who would want to stoop to that level to paddle someone? OR who would want to be the paddler? Is this grade school? Adults don't get paddled, only children.
------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml |
It's a matter of taste, I suppose...each candidate class at my chapter chooses a signature item (usually wooden), but no one has ever chosen the paddle.
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Soror, I understand where you are coming from but, you gotta keep it real skaters are hated. Some girl the other day wanted to know some chants. She wanted to know if some one would e-mail her them or post them on the board. You think she pledged? I worked way to hard for my letters and to see other people walk around with the same respect as me, and he/she didnt even pledge. It goes all the way back to 1914. You Should unterstand it best all 5 of your founders pledged. G.O.M.A.B. frat
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Do the sororities take wood also? I heard that they dont.
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I really don't know where the tradition of a paddle came from, but when I was in school I had one. It was painted and had little turtles (our mascot) all over it and it had my name and my sister's name and my pledge year on it. It was really pretty. My sister did a good job on it. I loved it!
------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml |
Even though i hated my time "in the cut" now i can see where it created adversity so that the pledges would be forced to bond together (or the line would break up). It was a time of "testing" so that you knew that your line brothers/sisters would "bump" for you in a time of need and it taught the individual line members to carry their share of the task. Even though your heartwarming gifts ( paddles with turtles on them..lol) sounds "hunky dori" i am secure with the knowledge that my "sands" with be there for me in the most dire time of need (Because we were tested with adversity when online (taking wood was just one of the obstacles)). Every rite of passage has ( or should have) some type of "stress" test, to see how strong the bond is. Marriages/relationships have stress tests. Families have stress tests. Lifelong Fraternal organizations should have stress test also. If someone is to be my lifelong Fraternal brother then i need to know that that person can handle extreme pressures and adverse conditions (wood is just one of the techniques). I personally dont want fair weathered (or untested) friends sharing a Fraternal bond with me.
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Charle:
In response to your comment:"Even though your heartwarming gifts ( paddles with turtles on them..lol) sounds "hunky dori" I doubt that your big brothers taught you to mock the traditions of other organizations while you were on line. How would you feel if someone mocked the traditions of your organization? I'm sure you would be pissed and would rather they not speak about something they know nothing about. I am a member of Zeta Phi Beta (obviously) and I don't know anything about Delta Zeta's traditions, but I'm willing to bet that the gifts given to them by their sister's mean as much as the gifts given to you by your prophytes. It is also unfair to question their bond because they didn't 'get in the cut'. Zeta Ace [This message has been edited by ZetaAce (edited April 13, 2000).] [This message has been edited by ZetaAce (edited April 13, 2000).] |
Dang it Yoda, you took the words right out of my mouth - absolutely, if you feel confident enough in a person to give them a bid, by all means that should mean you will take the responsibility to stand by them as a brother. Otherwise, the bid goes out on false pretenses, NOT a brotherly thing to do.
Taking wood takes ideals out of your bond - in my opinion, it is a perverted form of abuse. A brotherhood not built on the true ideals of it's founders is a brotherhood that will in the end fail. I'm sure your national organization would find the fact you "took wood" is not congruent with what you were supposed to experience. You've been cheated out of true respect, dignity, integrity, and any of the other TRUE ideals of a fraternal organization. ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. |
Recieving "a bid" is a right and priveledge to be evaluated and be tested. Just because someone recieves "a bid" (i went to something called a "smoker")does not entitle him to skate into my Frat. If a brother invites someone to one of our "smokers" he does so with his reputation on the line. The "priveldge" to be tested (recieving a bid) to see if he is worthy. Recieving a bid is only the beginning, and it should remain that. I dont want a non tested individual in my midst. Thats why , in my Frat, we continue to test brothers (even after they have crossed the sands) to make sure that they dont drop below the standard. Shall I say brotherhood conditioning. And no brother is exempt. It refreshing to see even the famous bruhs (NFL, NBA, Movie stars)join in the festivities of brotherhood ( on my level). I am glad i didnt join any weak shit.
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I'm sorry you feel that way about my oranization. My paddle was a gift to me on the night I was initiated. We all recieved our paddles the night we were initiated. Despite what you think, my bond with my sisters is very strong. Two of my sisters will be brides maids in my upcoming wedding. the other two are friends that I have had since grade school. I've been out of school now for 2 years, and I am still close to the two sisters that are to be in my wedding (and we are in different states), and I am sending invitations to all the sisters and to the members that came after I was gone. After 2 years, I still call and e-mail a lot of my sisters, and I visit every year. So, I don't think my bond is not strong or is lacking because I didn't take a beating when I pledged. But you can have whatever opinion you want. I wouldn't want to be the person responsible for physically or emotionally hurting someone just to find out if they would pass a "stress test." But hey, that's just me. Marriages and friendships do have "stress tests," but they certainly are not planned, and they don't involve beating each other or degrading each other. AND if they do, those people who commit such acts are not worth the pleather their shoes are made of. We put people behind bars who beat their spouses and beat their friends or strangers. We file lawsuits against people who degrade us. Marriages and friendships do take "stress tests," but they are not intentional. They also are formed on faith and trust. People don't trust someone who hurts them, both physically or mentally. Wife beaters aren't trusted by their spouses. . .hense restraining orders. That's why we have private shelters for the physically and mentally abused. Yeah, marriages and friendships do take "stress tests," but the minute my boyfriend lays a hand on me, he better watch out, cause he's gotta sleep sometime and my grandma gave me a cast iron skillet. If I wouldn't let someone I love hit me, I'll be damned it I'm gonna let some people in my sorority, just so I can prove myself worthy of their organization.
------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml [This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited April 13, 2000).] [This message has been edited by mgdzkm433 (edited April 13, 2000).] |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Charle:
[B]"Recieving "a bid" is a right and priveledge to be evaluated and be tested." http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/confused.gif Isn't the whole purpose of rush/recruitment/intake to be to evaluate the worthiness/compatibility of an individual to see if he at first meets up to the standards of membership, and to be a desirable member of your bond? If not, why do such a disservice to someone who might fit in better with another organizations ideals? "Thats why , in my Frat, we continue to test brothers (even after they have crossed the sands) to make sure that they dont drop below the standard. Shall I say brotherhood conditioning." http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif Where does "getting the cut" fit into this? How does this tie into teaching about the fraternity ideals? Does this teach dignity? Respect (not to be confused with fear)? Integrity? What ideals does someone learn about being physically abused? There are far more positive bonding experiences avaiable than to cop out to beating respect out of people... "It refreshing to see even the famous bruhs (NFL, NBA, Movie stars)join in the festivities of brotherhood ( on my level)." http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif Just because someone enjoys celebrity status does not forgive them of the rights and RESPONSIBILITIES of a true brother (one that lives up to the ideals of your Ritual on a day-to-day basis). In fact, they should be held to a higher standard. We see in the media all to frequently the allegations of hazing in fraternities...imagine the feeding frenzy that would be created if a "celebrity" were found to be in attendance....is that the kind of publicity your organization wants and desires? " I am glad i didnt join any weak shit" http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif I'm not doubting you joined anything weak - but don't confuse hazing with strength. Hazing is most often carried out by people with low self-esteem (why else would you physically BEAT on someone you are going to call a BROTHER for LIFE?). I doubt you will agree with me, but, I see this as a lack of focus on the true ideals, traditions, and purposes of membership in your organization. It's one thing to be proud of what you stand for, but another to arrogantly defend practices that not only state laws find illegal, but fly in the face of the true ideals of your order. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. [This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 13, 2000).] [This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 13, 2000).] |
Good insight. However I have been fortunate enough to join both "Difficult" AND "Paper" organizations. The difficult (My Frat, Airborne School, Ranger School). And the paper (there are plenty of them out there that you just pay your money to and get a certificate in the mail). I get much greater pride in the organizations that i joined that i had to sacrifice something for. Everyone is different. I chose not to take the easy route. Peace
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Charle, Military conditioning should not be confused with fraternity hazing - I was in the military as well, and I was hazed rather extensively both in boot camp and in certain ceremonies (shellback, bluenose, etc...). None of it was to the point where I truly feared for life or limb, I nevertheless was NOT impressed by the people who carried the activities out. They generally had little regard for others feelings, and took pleasure in the fact others suffered (in the ceremonies). In boot camp, well, what can I say? What happens, happens; and there are generally good reasons behind it. These reasons, however, have NO parallel to civilian, college life in my opinion.
While the military has a goal to keep you from getting killed, and making you part of the unit (indistinguishable from the other individuals) - I don't believe fraternities should do the same. I don't personally know of any "paper" GLO's other than honor or professional societies. I agree, membership has to be earned, but then again, so does respect. Hazing is a barrier to earning respect. I hope you understand, and think the next time you get to give wood - why are you doing it? How accountable are you as a brother prepared to be if, God forbid, something goes wrong? Peace... |
Most greek organizations are far from "here's my money - where's my membership certificate and friends". They demained much of their memebers both in terms of service to the organization and also to the community. I spent a majority of my time "non-greek" during college. My last two semester, I became "greek". None of my club i was invovled with could compare to the dedication that was freely given to my sisters and my sisterhood
Personally, my candidate period wasn't easy. We had much to accomplish and some sacrifices had to be made along the way. And by sacrfices, I mean time spent towards the sorority rather then studying or "playing". Our dedication was given because we believed in our goals and ideals not because we saw physical or mental abuse. We were helping to build a sisterhood on our campus. While some might rank who did what towards our founding as important - it doesn't negate the fact that we are all sisters! Each sister that has entered our sisterhood since has continued to contribute to the sisterhood. None of them experienced hazing, and none will. And as I find the occasion to visit the sisterhood and get to know the newer sisters, I take joy in knowing that they uphold the values of our sisterhood not because they endured hazing, but rather because they proved themselves by giving of themselves to the sisterhood - dedicating their time to promoting our values, to fostering friendships between sisters. I am always proud to call them sisters! Jennifer Jenn ------------------ Beta Chapter Alumna and Founder Alpha Sigma Kappa - Women in Technical Studies http://alpha-sigma-kappa.ou.edu/ http://www.alpha-sigma-kappa.org |
Hmm, interesting discussion. I know my founding fathers, god rest their souls, didn't go through any type of pledging whatsoever. Neither did the first class. They may have been hazed for the Freshman - Sophmore thing, but not in the fraternity. Also, no where in my ritual does it say that push up or sit ups is a neccesity to be a brother. I'm sure it's the same with everybody. Also in the case of the by-laws and constitution. Or even the charters. I'll admit, I got hazed and I hazed. That was about 7 years ago. Since then, my chapter has adopted a strict no hazing policy by eliminating pledging all together. Does it mean the new brothers are less of a brothers then us old schooler? No, in fact I could honestly say that they are more loyal to our fraternity. Hazing is not a method to build up loyalty. If you are weeding out the weak, then you should have joined the Marines. If you think they are not worthy, don't give 'em bids. After all, if they receive their bids, obviously they are worthy to stand by you as a brother.
By the way, check out http//:www.stophazing.org. It's a great organization that not only focus on GLOs hazing, but also athletic and the military. |
For hazing, if you won't take the ethics side, consider the economic side. Millions of dollars are being payed in settlement against the National Organizations, the Schools, and each individual members. THose millions of dollars could have been used for programs to make the chapter better. Such as computers for the house, seminars for seniors to get a job, etc. For the schools, the potential are great. And members, well, you won't get what you always wanted. It will probably forced you into bankruptcy.
Insurance premium are extremely high. In fact, we are put in the same category as Bars and other high risk groups. I don't know what the premiums currently are, but when I was active, we were paying around $60 per man. That is an extra $60 that I don't have. Plus national and local dues. It's a big bite in my finance. I don't regret it, but wish it could be lower. Due to higher premiums and settlement, the biggest threat to GLOs aren't administration, it's economic. The way we are going, pretty soon it'll be cheaper to own a BMW then to join a fraternity. And guess which one most people would choose. GLOs will be bankrupt unless this unethical and illegal practices are eliminated. I'm not talking bout little stuff like making 'em wear pins, I'm talking bout the high risk such as running through the campus with only boxers in sub-zero temperature. Basic philosophy: If you won't let your sons or father do 'em, don't tell somebody else to do it. ------------------ Try Not . . . Do |
I never feared life or limb when i pledged.
"Remember you facing just what other men have met" The military takes a certain level of "dedication" and has its methods of "testing". So does my Frat. Some choose to "walk the walk" , others dont. Thats cool with me. Every one has their limits ( including me). Case in point. Has anyone ever heard of the masonic (Scottish Rite, Prince Hall, Eastern Star) term "riding the goat"? (?beastiality?) . I am not a Mason but i have heard Masons refer to it. I definitely wouldnt want to go there. But interesting enough, all but two of our past presidents were Masons. Interesting. Was/Is "riding the goat" an ancient ritual. We all have limits dont we? What other "hazing" takes place in Masonic ceromonies? Every organization (Masonic, Military, Relgious, Fraternal) has its "ritual" requirements. "Eight men thoroughly immersed are a far greater asset than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm |
Don't confuse Ritual requirements with some of the hazing that occurs - I doubt "getting the cut" is referred to in any way in your actual initiation ceremony (unless there is something in the book that expressly forbids paddling/hazing).
Pledging requirements are so often contradictory to what is in our actual Rituals. That is a big problem - to go through some of the "initiation" activities prior to the true Ritual can leave new members confused as to what is right, and what means more to members - the message is all to often not to take the Ritual seriously, for the pledging activities take much more time and effort to carry out. Ironically, you may notice that some of the pledging and/or pre-initiation activities (don't confuse the two) change on a rather frequent basis - but I'll bet good money that your initiation Ritual has changed very little, or not at all, since its original drafting, however long ago that may be. Our Rituals are timeless, and, I'll bet are very similar in the messages they contain about how to live life, every day, to become a true brother/sister, and better person. The goal is to strive to meet the ideals - not to confuse members with activities that contradict what they should truly be learning. You stated that you hated your time "in the cut" - yet you learned some valuable lessons as a result. My question is, even though lessons were learned, you hated it - can you develop some other form of "new member education" that would teach the same lessons, and remove the hatred? Would members get more out of the education with the fear and intimidation factor removed? I think you will find in organizations where hazing is prevalent, and extreme, that the initiated membership is less active in the chapter than other comparitively similar organizations that do not haze. The only good I seem to have gotten from your perspective on hazing is that it brought your line/class tigthly together. However, shouldn't membership in a fraternity create bonds among ALL members, not just your class. This creates chapters with eight separate "cliques". There are so many more other methods of bonding membership than some sort of "bonding stress test." It creates the wrong kind of bond if only the new members are expected to get together. Mikki was very right about marriage's stress tests - they are not either planned or intentional (I'm coming up on my 9 year anniversary) - but you learn as you grow with each other (as an overall team, not segmented) on how to get through the tough times. (By the way Mikki - loved the line about Grandma's iron skillet - my wife inherited a large wooden rolling pin....same philosophy applies, and I've never put her in the position to use it either http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif ) I'm still interested in your response to the last question I posted - if you, on the other side of the line now, are going to "give" wood - how will you justify it? (Tradition? Please give me something more creative ..), and most importantly, how accountable are you prepared to be as a BROTHER if, God forbid, something goes terribly wrong at an event you attend? ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. |
..........You stated that you hated your time "in the cut" - yet you learned some valuable lessons as a result. My question is, even though lessons were learned, you hated it - can you develop some other form of "new member education" that would teach the same lessons, and remove the hatred? Would members get more out of the education with the fear and intimidation factor removed?
i also "hated" doing physical training in the mornings when i was in the military. Just because i "hated" it mean that it should be taken out. I hated the 30 mile road marches. i hated the after duty hours "ceremonies" in the barracks. Maybe i used the term "hate" too loosly. I felt "fear and itimidation" before i jumped out of an airplane or rappelled out of a helicopter. Did going thru those things make me stronger? Maybe, maybe not. |
..............I think you will find in organizations where hazing is prevalent, and extreme, that the initiated membership is less active in the chapter than other comparitively similar organizations that do not haze. The only good I seem to have gotten from your perspective on hazing is that it brought your line/class tigthly together. However, shouldn't membership in a fraternity create bonds among ALL members, not just your class. This creates chapters with eight separate "cliques". There are so many more other methods of bonding membership than some sort of "bonding stress test." It creates the wrong kind of bond if only the new members are expected to get together.
.............Techniques differ from organization to organizaton. I would prefer to join a org. that has a more stringent selection process. If it candidate stage is too much for me to handle then i would not continue. If i can handle it, then i will bask in the glory that membership brings. "Eight men thoroughly immersed are a far greater asset than 80 with lukewarm enthusiasm" P.S. I have never given a pledge wood. |
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I also know a little bit about Lambda Chi Alpha. It doesn't bother me to be called "paper" by people who praise hazing. (Our definitions are very different from each other). But it does bother me that a member of another non-hazing GLO would use that term. Not only am I not "paper", but I also know that none of the new members that I had the privelage to bring in (as their Pledgetrainer {now "new member educator"}) are "paper". They worked their butts off to get those letters, and the pride that goes with them. They didn't (and do not) just pay their dues and get a certificate. If you don't consider yourself or your GLO "paper", then you cannot consider mine "paper", either. While I'm now an alumnae, you might want to visit my former chapter's site Phi Beta Fraternity / Phi Chapter for clarification. ------------------ SilverTurtle@greekchat.com Phi Beta Fraternity [This message has been edited by SilverTurtle (edited April 14, 2000).] |
Hey Mikki!
My GLO gets paddles, too. The week before initiation we have a "paddle party". It's so much fun.... the new members come to the chapter room where paddles, paint, glitter, glue, markers, etc. are available, and they get to decorate their own. (The idea behind this is that we are an arts fraternity, and it's a way for everyone to create some art within the fraternity). Sometimes actives will bring their paddles and touch them up. This is a tradition that's been going on for as long as anyone can remember. Everyone usually got signatures of members on them, too. The back of mine's covered with them! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif I don't know of any sororities or professional GLO's that "take wood", but most do have paddles. Interesting, isn't it? Some other examples:[list][*]One local sorority on campus the bigs made paddles for their little's and presented them to them on their initiation night[*]A-Phi-O had the littles make them for the bigs (only chapter i've ever heard of this).. so you had to take a little before you got your paddle. The pledgeclass also made a paddle for their new member educator I think.[*]Our Phi Mu Alpha chapter had the pledges make their paddles (or maybe their bigs made them for them?).. but they had them the night of induction (first night after recieving bids).. there's were kind of cool because they had to get signatures of their pledgeclass, the actives, and all of the professors that were alumni of PMA, and their advisors. It was cool because there were so many professors that were alum. FYI- Just so no one thinks I am sharing big secrets of other GLO's, these practices were (are) common knowledge among students and faculty. ------------------ SilverTurtle@greekchat.com Phi Beta Fraternity Phi chapter |
We have a chapter of Phi Mu Alpha at my alma mater. I can't even remember if they had paddles. . .but SAI(my music fraternity) has a lot to do with the Phi Mu Alpha's. We didn't do the paddle thing, but our bigs made books for us to keep stuff in. It was really cool.
I also wanted to comment on what you said. SAI, Professional Music Fraternity for Women, is one of the organizations I am an Alumni of. We were not "paper" either. We had to work hard for our letters. There was a lot more to it then just signing a piece of paper and getting my first t-shirt. I'm a bit disappointed in myself becuase I tend to answer more questions with the information I have gained due to my social sorority Delta Zeta, rather than incorporate what I've also learned from my Professional. I think it is because professionals are looked at with a little bit more regard and respect than socials. Because it can be misinterpreted that professional greek organizations have a purpose, where socials do not. . .of course that is a crock of sh*t, but sadly enough. . .that is how society views it. But I apologize for not incorporating what I've learned from my professional organization. I really should try to do that more. ------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml |
Silver - regarding "paper" - I only used that term because I see too many references to it in this forum - I don't believe there are many "paper" GLO's other than one I belonged to in college (an honorary teaching organization) - I simply filled out an application, paid my fees, and watched the enrollment ceremony, and voila - I was a member.
I don't know why it is, but I see lot's of disparaging remarks about "paper" members, most notably by members of BGLO's - I'm not sure why, maybe it's just coincidence. It may have something to do with the underground pledging vs. normal MIP they are supposed to engage in - maybe it's a way of distinguishing themselves as being more "worthy" of membership. However, I've yet to hear a logically sound argument as to why "hard pledging" (or "non-paper") - in both instances I will make the assumption that a fairly moderate amount of hazing exists - makes a "better" member than a "non-hazing" organization. In fact, I believe just the opposite is true - hazing creates more divisions and problems than the unity and bonding that is professed by those who continue to haze. My experiences and the other posts I have seen here bear this out. Sorry if I offended you, but I was trying to draw out the distinctions - I hope this clarifies it somewhat. ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. |
LXA-
I understand where you were coming from on the aspect of "paper". But it's a negative term that I hate seeing used, especially when you're trying to defend anti-hazing. I'm a member of Order of Omega and that's paper. Literally, I signed, paid my dues, and that was that. Which is fine and appropriate for that kind of organization. I'm sure the professional organization you joined was similar... maybe some community service, too. But basically just something to recognize your achievements in that field + put on your resume. The GLO I'm an alumnae of, however, is different. True, it's "professional" (and a member of PFA). But it's also very service oriented. It's other ambitions are developing scholarship, leadership, and brother/sisterhood. Doesn't this sound like the ideals of most GLO's to you? Social, service, or professional? You're right when you say that BGLO (and some non-BLGO) members use the term "paper" to describe someone who didn't "earn" their letters (usually meaning going through pledging). So by calling members of service and professional GLO's "paper", you're saying that they didn't "earn" their letters. It's already been stated that those members who go through a new member ed or pledging period minus the hazing often have a lot more to prove and a lot more work than those who do experience pledging centered on hazing. If I remember correctly, you agreed with this basic statement. So by calling these Greeks "paper", you're saying they didn't earn their letters, when in fact, as you already know, they most likely did. I guess I'm just asking you to use discretion when using negative comments/phrases (or words that can be percieved that way) when discussing others' GLO's. I think you would be offended if I said "I heard LXA's paper... they don't even call their pledges 'pledge'..!" (And I don't consider you guys paper because of the associate member program.. I call that leadership and forward thinking and an example.) I hope that explains my view + why I was offended... and apology accepted http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif thank you! ------------------ SilverTurtle@greekchat.com Phi Beta Fraternity Phi chapter |
Silver, Thanks for the post. However, I will disagree with you about Order of Omega being only a paper organization. You have to earn the right to membership by proving leadership and grades to be considered for membership - I think of Omega as a reward earned by diligent striving. Sure, once you're invited to join, there's not a lot of effort involved, but, just getting to the invitation takes amazing effort.
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awwww, how sweet. . .silver has another b/f. . .hehehe.
just kidding. . .LOL |
Watched TLC (The Learning Channel) last nite. Watched the Navy SEALs "candidates" go through their "Hell Week". The instuctors said that the sole purpose of the hazing ritual was to weed out the people who really didnt want to be Navy SEALS. Interesting concept huh? The people who really didnt want to be there quit and went home. No questions asked. The "instuctors" had the "candidates" perform menial tasks that had nothing to do with combat training. The only purpose of some of the tasks were to create confusion, instill the team work ethic, and to TOTALLY stress out the "candidate". Stuff like surf torture (submersion in hypothermia inducing water), boat pushup (Even after one of the members has passed out), sleep and food deprivation, and tons of abrasive sand on the body to rub the skin raw. Sounds like hazing to me. The instructors were qouted as saying that if a candidate couldnt hang thru "Hell Week" then he didnt want him in the brotherhood of the SEALS. Whats good enough for the Seals is not good enough for my organization? Who decides that? The SEAL candidates werent forced to stay. They could've left at anytime. Those that really wanted it stuck around. Did the very first Nave SEALS go thru “Hell Week” ? My Fraternities Founding Fathers didn’t go thru “Hell Week” either. But yet the SEALS see the purging process as necessary procedure. Does this ritual make the SEALS a better organization? Why cant my organization strive for the same level (or higher )of "brotherhood"?
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Last time I checked, fraternity pledges were being trained for brotherhood, not "simulated combat conditions" as the SEAL Hell Week does. I saw the special on that last night also. I don't see the same parallels you do. Also, when SEAL recruits are pushed to the absolute physical and mental limits, and even beyond, they do have trained medical professionals who ensure injuries are addressed. Funny, but I've never seen an ambulance or paramedic unit invited to a hazing activity...
While military training is meant to ensure that you will not fail during actual combat (in other words, die, and have several of your shipmates die with you), fraternity pledging is to teach members what it means to be a brother, the history of the order, etc....in most cases, as most GLO's teach in their rituals, to live their life by Christian ideals. Military training and fraternity education both have goals in educating new recruits/members. But the outcomes, the intent, and the methods should not be the same. ------------------ Don't be your brother's keeper; rather, be your brother's Brother. [This message has been edited by LXAAlum (edited April 18, 2000).] |
Silver, just another quick clarification - Yes, I do believe letters should be earned - but the definition of "earning" is not the same as hazing. Earning letters means that you learn about your organization, what it means to other new members, brothers, and alumni, and how you fit in to the "big picture."
It also means to earn letters AFTER initiation - that you as a brother/sister/alumnus contribute just as much as new members, and, most importantly, that you try to live the ideals of your Ritual on a daily basis. It does NOT mean that you subject yourself to humiliation, paddling, and other forms of physical and mental abuse. That is not brotherhood, it is subservience, and is 180 degrees out of the ideals of most all fraternal organizations. We become hypocrites when we try to defend hazing as a "positive experience." I've never heard anyone say they looked back on their pledge period as an "enjoyable experience" if hazing was involved. In fact, most people would say they became members "in spite of" the hazing. |
Simulated combat conditions?.....I guess building a monument/shrine for the instructors is a battlefield task. Not being allowed basic hygienge is battlefied task? Istructors shovelling sand on candidates is not hazing? Is shoveling sand on someone a battlefield task? Hmmmmmm. Or does it build a brotherhood cohesion when under stress?. Hmmmmmmm. Interesting concept huh? Building teamwork when under stress. As for having medical personnell on duty for those sailors who are dangerously close to hypothermia, well that doesnt always happen. The medical personnell are not always around. The doctor showed up for about and hour then got back in his HUMVEE and left. I can speak from experience on that one. Hence the Rangers who died in of hypothermia in the Florida phase of Ranger School in 94. When i was in Ranger school i never saw a doc in the field. You obviously didnt watch the same program i watched if you didnt see the SEAL instructors actions as hazing. Hollering in a bullhorn is combat related? Oh i forgot, its called psychological warfare (yeah right) . Face it. Not all of the tasks that were showed on the show were "combat related". And niether were all of the tasks i completed in Ranger school "combat related". If you thought that they were then you are in an elevated state of happydom. They are tasks that are invented to make the "initiation" more difficult so they could weed out the less devoted. If they cant hang then they drop out. Plain and simple. The Seals are looking for special people just like my frat is looking for special people. Its not for everyone. recieving a "bid" for Seal training just entitles you to a invitation to be tested. Those who flunk, well thats on them. Masonory is the same way. Its not for everyone. There has to be techniques to weed out the unworthy. Like the instructors on the program said, if the candidates cant make it through "hell week" then they dont want them in the brotherhood of SEALs. I feel the same way about my Fraternity.
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hmmmm. . .let's see here. . .Navy Seals. . .Fraternity. . .hmmmmm. Use a little common sense. The two aren't even close to being the same.
1) Shrine/Monument to instructor: Shows that the SEALS can use what they have around them to make any type of sturcture they might need to use. Dummys on the beach, so the SEALS won't be shot at, for example. 2) Personal Hygene: ummm. . .when they are out preforming "secret" missions or whatever, I hope they are more worried about getting their mission done than their hygene. If they are in the middle of battle or whatever, they aren't going to have time to think about hygene. 3) Shoveling Sand on one another: Proves that they can do what needs to be done to survive, even if it does hurt. SEALS coming in to shore from sea might need the training as to what the abrasive sand might feel like if they have to stay in shallow water for a while or on the beach for a while. All these things are helpful in training them for battle. Even so, come on! You are comparing Navy SEALS to Fraternity guys? SEALS are supposed to be TRAINED to withstand the elements and harsh conditions. They are supposed to be the biggest assests to our Navy! Fraterinity guys are just supposed to do community service, and that doesn't include invading Iraq and steeling the secret documents. SEALS are TRAINED military men. They KILL people if they have to. . .fraternity guys worry about what they are going to wear out on Friday night or their English grade or getting a fundraiser done. I can't believe that you would even think of comparing the two. They are in NO way alike. And for THEIR sake, I hope the SEALS know what it's like to be deprived of their hygene and what abrasive sand feels like before they go into a mission. . .they would never survive otherwise. Beating a pledge or harassing him till he breaks does absolutely nothing. It in no way betters him for his fraternity. There is no use to it. . .it's pointless. Brotherhood? Who's your best friend from High School or Grade School? Did you beat each other up just so you could be "better" friends? Did you have to "prove" yourself to them? Beating someone or harassing someone to make them "stronger" or "better" or "appreciative" is the most STUPID thing I've ever heard of. These people are supposed to be your brothers! Would you beat your own brother? Would you harrass your own brother? WAKE UP! ------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml |
'''hmmmm. . .let's see here. . .Navy Seals. . .Fraternity. . .hmmmmm. Use a little common sense. The two aren't even close to being the same.
''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' I guess your concept of Fraternity is different than how my organization looks at it. Just like the Navy Seals or Masons say "maybe you arent right for the organization". My Fraternity looks at it the same way. Maybe you just arent right for the Frat. Example. If you cant be a SEAL you can still be a good sailor in the Navy and serve honorably. Well, the same rule applies. If you can be in my Frat , you can join a "paper" organization and serve honorably. Same deal. If you arent willing to have the dedication then we dont want you. Plain and simple. We arent interested in people who "worry about what they are going to wear out on Friday night or their English grade or getting a fundraiser done". Obviously your perception of dedication and committment is different than the Fraternity I am in. Dont feel bad. There are lots of people who dont make it. Dont get mad because our required level of committment is different than yours. Not everyone can be SEALs, Rangers, Airborne, Masons, Eastern Stars, or in my Fraternity. |
What Fraternity are you in anyway? They don't care about grades, they don't care about fundraisers, they don't care about community service. . .what do you care about? Anything? Or do you just beat people and harass them? Is that what your fraternity is "all about?" I feel sorry for you if you feel that tourturing individuals just to see if they are worthy of YOUR fraternity is important. Hazing is illegal. Or do you not care about what happens to your fraternity if anyone turned you in? I guess you don't care if all your brothers who haze go to jail. IMHO you're not a brother to ANYONE if you don't care.
Yeah, it takes a "real man" to take a beating. You must be a "real man" because you got hazed. You must be a "real brother" too, beacuse you got the shit kicked out of you or was mentally harassed to see if you would crack. I stand by my previous statement. REAL brother (blood brothers) don't beat each other or harass each other to see if they are worthy of love or the title brother. If your fraternity is based on all of these things. . .I wouldn't WANT to join. I'm glad I'm an alum of TWO organizations that stand for something. Yeah, not everyone can be a Navy SEAL, but at least they stand for something, at least they do good. You haven't shown ONE thing you fraternity stands for, other than hazing. I'm sorry you frat is just a bunch of beer guzzlin' frat boys who don't know whether to scratch their watch or wind their butts. They just sit around and haze each other cause They think it's "cool" instead of doing something important. I'm sorry you didn't have a high enough GPA to get into a organization like mine. Or you didn't have respect for yourself or you didn't care about anything important. Not everyone can be good enough to be a AST, SSS, Delta, Zeta, Tri-Delta, or in MY sororities. ------------------ Mikki Gates Delta Zeta Alum Kappa Mu Chapter Sigma Alpha Iota Alum Eta Tau Chapter "I would rather have thirty minutes of wonderful than a lifetime of nothing special." --Julia Roberts (Steel Magnolias) Visit me at: http://homepages.go.com/~dzkm433/index.html and http://www.calypso.com/dzkm433/welcomtomyworld.chtml |
No. Not everyone has what it takes to be in my Frat. If you want to join,well you have to display a certain level of committment and dedication. If you dont want to join, well thats cool to. My fraternity is not based on numbers.
"Eight men thoroughly immersed in the true spirit are a far greater asset than eighty with lukewarm enthusiasm" |
Commitment and dedication to what? Like Mikki has stated, you don't care about grades, about community service, about anything, or so it seems.
Eight mean immersed in the true spirit - what is the true spirit? Ability to take physical punishment in order to be a member? What kind of self-esteem is that? |
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