Hazing?
 

I just have two questions:

1. Why is walking on line considered hazing?

2. Why is having a "long" pledge process considered hazing?

In my opinion, walking on line is one of the easiest parts of pledging, once you get the hang of it. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif It also promotes unity. You cannot walk as a line if you do not work together. When I was in school, NPC sororities had their pledgee's walk in a line, they just didn't lock up. There were no outcries of hazing from anyone. And, their lines were 20-50 girls long, easily. Why the double standard?

As for the "long" pledge processes: (Speaking only for my organization) We do not purposely keep the ladies on line for "long" periods of time. Most of us are well aware of the fact that, in essence, the line determines when they will be initiated.

When the line has successfully completed all the required goals of the pledge process, then they are initiated. Some lines are on point, others are not...period. Sometimes other issues within the line come into play that may prolong the process. However, even taking all of this into consideration, who is to say what constitutes "long"? What is a "long" pledge process? A week? Two weeks? Four? Six? Ten?

Point blank, pledging is time consuming. If you don't have the time, don't pledge.

------------------
Sincerity, Loyalty, Unity
Sigma Lambda Upsilon: Hasta La Muerte!

[This message has been edited by Serenity (edited June 25, 2000).]

Yes, I am also wondering what is considered a long pledging process.

I have read posts that have said in many ways that the NPC does not condone a long pledging process that occurs in LGLOs and BGLOs.

As a member of a LGLO, I do not consider our sorority's pledge process to be unnecessarily long.

What is considered long by the NPC standards?
What is the reasoning behind this?

I am just trying to understand.


Suavacita
Gamma Alpha Omega
Honesty, Integrity, Leadership, Scholarship, Unity

I know I'm way behind here, but what does walking on line entail?

Hazing is something that has no clear-cut definition. If your state has a law about it that would be a good definition to follow. Otherwise you'll want to find out what your HQ says about it.

Many NIC and NPC groups have extremely conservative views as to what hazing entails. Some go so far as to say asking a new member to do anything they would not normally do is "hazing".

Sometimes it can be a positive thing to ask someone to operate outside of their normal comfort zone but it tends to get taken to extremes.

Is walking on line when the class has to work together to earn their intiation? And, if so, how long does it TYPICALLY take? (I understand, as you say, that some lines take longer than others)

As for NPC, I don't know of a certain length that NPC thinks the new member period should be. However, it seems to me that most NPC groups have shortened their new member periods to six or eight weeks.

Please use the GC search engine. You are bound to find your answer with that tool.
:)

Is making a New Associate Class work together, Study, Have meetings Learn about your history hazing? In some circles YES! It is BS! If they do not want to join and have to learn to study and make gardes to graduate, or learn the History of your Org. and Local then be gone damn spot!

If I walked into the House and a New Associate did not stand and introduce himself or know who I was, I would feel like I was not a member of that Fraternity!

If a Lady walks in and they did not stand up I would be pissed, not because it was hazing, but common courtesy!

We have become so politically Correct, we lose sight of the courtesy that should be shown to elders and women!

What a DAMN SHAME!:(

I was taught by my Mother, stand and introduce yourself!

If my Mother was wrong then the P C asswholes can kiss my ----!:mad:

Walking "on line"
 

I used to advise the greeks at a small religious university. Walking on line (or like ducks, or backwards, etc.) is considered hazing because 1) it is something that students are not normally required to do; 2) it is something that the actives won't do themselves with the pledges; 3) it can be considered a "spectacle" on campus, therefore creating embarrassment for some; and 4) most administrators and faculty see it as disruptive.

Now, of course, while walking on line may be embarrasing to one student, it may evoke a sense of pride in another student. It's this discrepency that creates the issue, and consequently, some organizations and universities feel it's necessary to just avoid the whole thing and prohibit it (among many other things).

As for the length of an education period being "too long," I guess it depends on what your governing body and/or university say. Where I used to work, there was a sorority that had ladies pledge for 15 weeks, but that was considered okay.

On another note...Serenity, I've been meaning to send some LGLO love to you and your hermanas! Hope all is well in your casa!

our process is generally longer than most NPCs on campus. We go about 10.5 weeks. We DID cut it down to 8 weeks to see if things would work better, but they didn't. The girls felt rushed having a test every single week (we don't do one big test, just a lot of lil ones instead), having to complete our Opal Interviews, or getting to know each individual sister and vice versa, and having to balance school work, jobs, boyfriends, families, etc... 8 weeks was just too short to really get to know all of the girls and for them to get to know and feel comfortable around us... and there were only 6 of them. Now we have 29 newbies... i think 10 weeks gives time to enjoy your new member semester, bond with the rest of your class, and just be... well... the newbies. i don't know how others can initiate after 4 weeks... nor do i understand the process of holding nms over til the next semester. guess it just depends on the sorority... or fraternity.

Don't take my word on this, but I think that an extra-long new member period can be looked upon as "hazing" because grades tend to fall during the new member period (which is only natural, considering how much busier you'll be than you have been before) and both schools and the NPC sororities would like to minimize that, and have more of a focus on grades.

Personally I don't think that a long new member period is hazing, per se, but it can produce a detrimental side effect (falling grades) that most GLOs don't want associated with their organization. And I think it's a lot easier for NPHC sororities and fraternities to get away with a longer pledge period because their new members tend to be older -- NPC sorority pledges are generally freshman or sophomores who haven't learned how to balance school with other commitments yet.

And the extra-extra-long new member periods (where they wait until a new semester has started to initiate) were originally so that the actives could see the new members' first semester grades and make sure they were up to par before initiation, I believe.

I agree with this 100%. I don't understand some of the things that are considered hazing. What is the point of pledging if you dont want to learn info and history?! Obviously it's going to be time consuming.

I have to say although my organization does a lot of what was mentioned above, we do go to the extreme with a few things. Our new members have to meet everyday for meetings and to learn new information. Yes it's a pain in the ass, but as I look back on it it's very well worth it. I know where all my sisters are from, and I feel proud to say that outloud. But in aspect, why is that considered hazing? Our national organization's pledge process is 6-8 weeks, however, I pledged for 11 weeks. We had more grils than normal, and the sisters wanted to make sure we knew our information for the test. That too, would be considered hazing.

I just don't understand why a lot of simple things are considered hazing, when at the sme time hardcore paddling and throwing up from too much beer can be in the same category.

walking, working together to get to XYZland.

I know fraternities that wait two quarters (that's 20 weeks of school and the summer) before they initiate their pledges. That seems excessive to me! But they like it. You know, I don't think it's the length so much as what you do during it. If the members are made to think they may not get initiated if they don't do one thihng or another I would consider that undue stress and hazing.
But, that's just me.

-M

I think it's a shame that new member programs are so short. I'm glad that I had to wait until the following semester to initiate. We had to make our grades first---emphasizing why we were in college in the first place. It also gave us time to get to know everyone, new members and old. Time to learn about our organization and take pride in it. Also my chapter did COB so it allowed the entire group of new members to be initiated at the same time----none of this 2-3 initiations a semester. What I see now is less time to bond and care about everything because everyone is stressed out trying to get it done in a short time. I have never understood why the time was shorteed so drastically....now there are many more dropping out than back then.

Often times, you can learn in 6 weeks what you can in 10. At least for most NPC sororities. With D Phi E, the program is set up so that you can complete it in 6 weeks, and it works VERY well. On top of burdening new members with hideously long NM periods, think of the events that are added onto the schedule of all of the active sisters with NM events. Yes, they're fun, but it can be a bit excessive at times.

Because we, as Greeks, have such a terrible reputation in the general public already -- all the organizations are trying to remove the hazing stigma, and that will require complete elimination of all things associated with hazing. For example, in a lot of organizations, it's "hazing" to make paddles as a big/lil present, even though they're not being used to smack people with. Why? Because if somebody who's not in a Greek organization sees a Greek with a paddle, they're probably going to assume that somebody's getting paddled with it.

If we want the Greek system to survive, we are going to have to get rid of almost everything that has connotations with hazing. Even essentially harmless things like making big/lil paddles, scavenger hunts, wearing pledge pins for all your waking hours, and signing pledge books -- they can be misinterpreted by non-Greeks and hurt our image the same way that harmful hazing does, because they hint at darker things going on beneath the surface.

Yes, I do think that certain measures that are being taken are a little extreme, but in the long run they're probably also going to be necessary.

so essentially, the law is going to make it so that anyone can run up into an organization without having to do any work? if that's the case, we'd all be just clubs.

If you simply adhere to your org's hazing policies and state laws you'll be fine.

Plenty of great options remain for the new member process. You just have to think outside the box sometimes.

If you've got problems, call your HQ and they will have answers for you. If not, research what other organizations are doing. I'm not going to go find the exact URL but if you go to www.sigmanu.com you can find what we're doing -- it's called the LEAD program. Great ideas in there. Check it out.

I think sugar and spice hit the nail right on the head. Obviously making someone a paddle for decorative purposes is not the same as drinking someone to death. But if your image is tainted, as ours has been, you need to look cleaner than clean to repair it.

What I don't get is how "not hazing" equates to "not working." Even the strictest hazing laws don't say new members can't be required to do things. They just aren't required to do things that initiated members aren't (or that don't have a very close equivalent).

Do you require sisters to wear their badges on Wednesdays? Then you can require the new members to wear their pins then too. Do sisters have to attend weekly chapter meetings? Then new members can be required to attend weekly class meetings. Does everyone have to go to philanthropy events? That includes the new members too.

Now maybe these things don't make as strong a bond within the pledge class. I believe it de-emphasizes the class bond and strengthens the overall chapter bond, because it's not you against them to accomplish something. But is that a bad thing? At my school, people weren't necessarily closest to their pledge class. But the retention of members was so much better than what I've seen at most other schools since I've graduated.

well, why would you require a bruh to do something that a pledge does? he already did it when he was on line. that's the reason said person is pledging. he's trying to get into this organization. you want your pledge line to have a strong bond, chapter bond will come, that's not a problem. i mean, requiring them to do things that members do is all fine and dandy, but pledging to get into an organizations take work. if that was all they had to, then they really didn't earn their letters, becuase it's just run of the mill stuff that they require.

Actually, no, I just said I didn't care if the pledge class had a bond or not.

Not everyone believes that letters/membership need to be earned. If you believe that, fine, but don't make the assumption that everyone else does. We offer bids to those we think are worthy; to my mind, that's all the "earning" they need to do - other than the everyday earning that each and every one of us ought to be doing to live up to our ideals. I believe that if your new members/pledges need to go through more tests of worthiness before initiating/going on line, you haven't done a good enough job of choosing who to pledge in the first place.

and my things was that it's important that the pledge line has a strong bond. they're the ones you come into an orangizations with. so just becuase you think someone is cool from a few weeks of knowing them, you automatically give them entrance into your organization? that's what pledging is about, IMHO, pledging weeds out those (sometimes it works, other times, not so well) who don't want it enough. you can't sit there and meet someone a few times and know that person is going to be a good member. if we just gave people membership, then we'd nothing but a bunch of t-shirt wearers.

I hear you
 

Starang21, I hear what you are saying. Membership comes with privileges, and in my opinion, you need to put in effort to earn those privileges. I want to see whether or not a person is going to be loyal, respectful, and bring a diligent work ethic to her classes and my organization BEFORE she can call herself my sister. This is not something I want to find out after she is already wearing my letters.

The membership process is a time for the prospectives to learn and the actives/alumnae to teach. It's a time for the class to learn how to work as a team, how to be resourceful, how to rise to challenges (not hazing) and feel a sense of accomplishment when they reach heights they never thought they would. It's also a time for actives and alumnae to teach (not haze) the ladies about their history, what they value, what they focus on, how they operate the chapter and national, and emphasize that they are making a LIFE LONG COMMITMENT. It is during this process that ladies need to truly decide if they want to become members, and if they are willing to take on the responsibility that goes with it. But...it would be too late for that if I already gave them my letters, right?

This is just my opinion.

Re: I hear you
 

that's exactly what i'm talking about. it is a life long commitment, and if you have to work hard to get it, and not have it handed to you, you'll end up appreciating it more ine the end.