It happened again...
 

This time Kappa Sig at UT got caught dressing up in blackface..

http://www.wbir.com/News/news.asp?ID=9654

Exerpt from Article - "UT put on a sensitivity program for fraternities not long ago, explaining why painting faces black is so offensive. "

These are college students we're talking about! Cream of the crop, bastion of higher education, keepers of the flame of knowledge, etc. and they needed a sensitivity program to explain why a white person in blackface is offensive??? :confused:

did he really do that as louie armstrong? i'm not so sure.... if so, why is that so bad? if a african american dressed up as a eminem, with blond hair and light makeup on his face no one would say a thing. i am tired of this double standard. michel jackson made himself white...and what would happen if a white person made themselves black? maybe some white people really want to be black.

ok dude, while I agree that there's a double standard, it's stil not excusable to do blackface. I'm pretty sure a BGLO would get in trouble for doing "whiteface" (though I doubt they'd be dumb enough to do something that stupid). And, using Mikey J isn't exactly a good example.

Yes, a Delta Sig is saying this, but as a Filipino, I was hurt, shocked and disgusted that my "brothers" did the same thing.

There are black, latino and asian Kappa Sigs, Delta Sigs and AChiRhos, I wish these chapters would take that into consideration when they decide to do something completely assinine like blackface.

It's such a double standard dude. I know exactly what you mean.

-Rudey
--Oh by the way please let me know the last time a black guy painted his face with white shoe polish. It's not such a common occurence out in the boonies of NYC and Chi Town, but then again we're not as cultured as some other big city folk.

Oh there's a double standard.

Whatever, I'm drunk..........Go Aztecs!

Ok...but being realistic, I doubt that's the case.

I have seen white people who identify closer with "urban" culture, purposely (and admittedly) tan heavily for darker skin.

However, I have never seen a white person put shoe polish on their face (but maybe their shoes) and go clubbing.

I think that if the person wanted to be black, he would not have done blackface, because...black people dont do blackface.

I think that if a black person did white face (which to be honest, I've never seen) would cause some media attention.

Micheal Jackson is also a poor defense for your argument. He's so eccentric, that who really knows what he's up to.

But yes, that all aside, I can see your frustration with general double standards.

I think there are varying degrees of bad and stupid... This would fall into one of the lower categories.

The difference between this and other blackface incedents is that they were not portraying negative, racist stereotypes. Take for example the AGR's at Ok State... They dressed up in Klansmen outfits for a party and others wore blackface and nooses... I wouldn't categorize them as the same thing.

I truly don't see how this is the same thing.

I agree. At least these guys apparantely weren't dressed as KKK members portraying a lynching.

Still, this is insensitive. A real question is why these folks don't learn from the mistakes of others. This has certainly been in the news enough recently.

Also, tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that all of these blackface incidents have been men. There have been women in the pictures and at the parties, but the offenders have all been male. Wonder why that is.

Finally, a double standard may make you mad, but it doesn't make the offensive behavior acceptable.

Again I say, stupity and hatred is not the only cause, it's also what they think they can get away with. Again I say, no one would even think of doing such a thing at my school, unless they're planning to transfer or wished to be harassed. It would not be tolerated.

Dude, I thought you were hispanic. Why does this so-called double standard bother you, lol. :confused:

I just kinda wanted to bring up as a side note how the media views Asians. I swear, every time I turn on my TV or go to the movies, every Asian guy either talks with this heavy accent, acts like he's this badass gangsta, or knows karate. Take the character on City Guys for example., or the Asian guy in How High. While I think that they're somewhat funny, I get annoyed sometimes when people assume that I race a Honda, know karate, eat rice all the time and eat dogs.

Actually it looks pretty harmless. I think its in light of the prior situation that everything looks bad.

Taken out of the context of the alabama incidents this might not bat an eyelash.

It was a plausible reason to be dressed that way and if you think in terms of winning a costume award it was a great ploy.

Unfortunately for Kappa Sigma they chose famous musicians. And lets face it, there are a lot of truly famous black musicians that have become among the timeless classics. Way beyond the to-die-for-today-forgotten-tomorrow poppy artists that win MTV music Awards.

It would have been hysterically funny to have a black man or dark skinned man paint his face white, wear white gloves, a big 80's jacket, tight pants and say he was Michael Jackson.

Lets keep everything in perspective?

I know a lot of people don't want to think deeply about issues but I know we are better on here than the average unthinking sheep.

As far as the administration is concerned, it sounds like they want to make an example. If I were those "kids" I would have their parents on the phone with the administration right away. Or better yet go in person.

For some reason administrators feel free to screw over those they believe are "kids" but fear parents a bit.

Um...are you serious? Really? Cause if a Black person dressed up as Eminem, I would have a LOT to say!

Not that this analogy should even be entertained, but is MJ NOT the target of criticism and harassment? Is he not seen as pathological? What on earth was your point here?

And there have been people who have donned black skin in an effort to truly live the black experience. They couldn't do it. There is a book about it, but I can't remember the name? Can a GC'er with intact brain cells help me out?

And if anyone truly wants to be another race, that is their own self-hatred issue. It has nothing to do with frats dressing up in blackface because they think it is funny or cute.

I HIGHLY recommend that everyone go out and rent the movie BAMBOOZLED. Then perhaps you can begin to understand why this is NOT funny in any context.

While this might make sense on the surface, it really boils down to miseducation. If he really knew the significance of ANY sort of blackface, he would never have done it. You can dress as a black musician without painting your face black.

Also, administartors fear parents because THEY are the ones paying the money...duh!

Double standard?
 

I don't consider this a double standard. I consider it a single standard, as follows:

When there's a several-hundred-year history of Group X abusing, killing, and enslaving Group Y, and throughout much of that history Group X used a tool called "YFace" to ridicule, insult, and belittle members of Group Y, and after centuries of painful struggle Group Y has achieved a measure of equality with Group X....THEN, it is offensive to revive that tool for your own amusement without consideration for its meaning to others.

That's the standard that's being applied here, to everyone, across the board. If you want to call it a double standard, go right ahead, but I don't see where one group is being held to a higher standard than another. Nobody, of any race, should use the emblems of their fellow students' oppression for entertainment.

Yes, the incident with the noose was even MORE offensive...it was probably the most offensive costume imaginable. But the fact that this costume wasn't the MOST offensive possible costume doesn't mean that students and faculty at UT are wrong to be upset.

Ivy

I have to agree w/ Ivy here...

I know that's right, IvySpice!

That's easy. Because at fraternity parties, women want to look cute and attractive. Smearing paint all over our faces just isn't very pretty...and it's terrible for the complexion (as I found out when I was in high school & painted my face green as part of my witch costume...)

(sorry if I'm going off topic - just wanted to inject a little humor here..)

Re: Double standard?
 

I am not sure its the same thing in the eyes of the person doing it. Its the whole concept of blackface that is getting people's goats here.

When I hear, These guys dressed up as blackfaces and then see the context as a racist situation I have one kind of thought and its similar to the one expressed here.

However, if someone came up to me and said: Dude it was cool this guy won the costume party last night for looking exactly like Louis Artmstrong, he darkened his face, had the rap down, wore the clothes. My reaction would be different.

Also, without the alabama incident, people probably wouldn't have noticed anywhere near as much. would anyone be willing to concede that point?

Also, there is some indication that when someone reaches celebrity status they kind of lose their color, white or black, and aren't really considered the same way.

I remember that when the movie Bodyguard came out they interviewed people to see if they had a problem with the interracial relationship depicted. And people didn't have a problem because it was Whitney Houston and Kevin Costner.

Of course because a racial component has been brought into the argument it might be one of those times when a rational discussion can't really be had . . .

Hey, I thought it was because we women are just too smart to do dumb, offensive stuff like that... ;)

Re: Re: Double standard?
 

James, it really doesn't matter how you try to reword it, soften it, or perceive the other person's intentions. If someone is sporting blackface, they are sporting blackface. And whether or not it offends YOU really is moot. Unless, of course, you are black. Or unless you understand the true significance of blackface PERIOD, which you don't seem to.

And celebrities and/or their complexion and/or how the public views them really have no place in this discussion because all of that is irrelevant to the issue.

The issue is a guy at Tennessee put on blackface. The end. Whether he was doing it to be cute, to pay homage, or any other reason really doesn't matter. The fact is that it is ALWAYS offensive. Point blank.

btw, VERY well said, IvySpice.

Re: Re: Re: Double standard?
 

Another question that may enter into the discussion... Even though you may be offended by this fellas actions what right does anyone have to PENALIZE his organization or him? Since when is being offensive (especially in this case since it was probably unintentional) a crime or something that deserves some sort of retribution?

To be honest I really have problems when there are people calling for action against someone in a case like this where the injury isn't even intentional.

Maybe Alpha Phi Alpha and other groups on campus might see this as a call to help to better educate the community on matters such as this.

Not to defend Micheal Jackson, but he claims that he lightened his skinned due to a medical condition called vitaligo (which is when spots of the skin loses pigmentation).

In regards to a black person, are you inferring that by putting on white(I mean literally the color white) paint on their face? I'm confused....

My whole point is if I wanted to dress up as Britney Spears ;) why would I have to put on a very light flesh tone make-up? Wouldn't my tasteless outfit be enough? :D

*lol*

Kudos to Ivy for the post!

I agree with Ivyspice and Librasoul on this one. There is no excuse for blackface. Blackface is a symbol of oppression. White actors did not use black face to portray strong, powerful black men and women. White actors who used black face to portray black people as goofy, slow...well you understand what I'm trying to say. Those that use blackface are not respecting others. It's offensive and insulting. How dare anyone condone such behaviour. I would be ashamed an offended if any of my sisters did this or thought it was okay. I would be ashamed if any of the fraternity members on my campus though that this behaviour was acceptable and I am ashamed that anyone here can justify this behaviour.

Waaaaiiiiitttt . . .

Also, to put this in context. Isn't a a "blackface" a specific reference to a specific type of make-up arrangment that was popular in entertainment at one time.

I seem to remember seeing shows like that decades ago in my youth.

Its kind of important to understand both the historical fact that we are referencing and what it meant in the context of those times.

Hi everyone,

I thought i should chime because i am a student at the University of Tennessee and I was actually present at the event. This was not a case of one person dressing in black face but several members dressed in black face. According to the Kappa Sigs they were dressed this way for a skit. A member of the Black Student Association was driving by and saw one of the members dressed in black face. She spoke to the member and ask why he was dressed this way. The guy stated that they were just having fun. When she ask what fraternity he was a member of he originally replied that he was a member of Alpha Phi Alpha. This took place at a private party so members of the BSA were not able to go and speak to members about this, however, because the party was at a club and because of the quick thinking of the BSA the president got a camera and had the manger of the club photograph the members in black face. THERE ARE PICTURES!!!!! The president and tresurer of Kappa Sig later came downstairs and spoke to several members of the BSA saying they were just having fun and really didn't want it to be made a big deal. They also stated that they didn't want it to turn into another "Auburn incident". This has truly affected the campus. Black students are hurt by the constant acts of insensitivity and this is just the latest. What is most upsetting is the continued public attitude by Kappa Sig that they were only having fun and everyone is making too big a deal. If they would have the character to simply admit that they were wrong things would be different. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes Just giving you the opinion of someone on campus .


P.S. I think most people have the biggest problem with the disrespecful/non chalant attitude the Kappa Sigs are taking. By saying they were members of Alpha Phi Alpha and then stating they were just having fun and didn't want it to turn into another Auburn incident shows that they had knowledge of those previous acts.

I agree with IvySpice and Librasoul on this topic.

I wonder what the heck the guys were thinking. How is dressing up in blackface fun especially since it hurts and insults people? I don't understand people sometimes.

Blackface was a form of make up arrangment that was used to POKE FUN at black people. Therefore it is insulting, and oppressive, and this behaviour is NOT acceptable.

Yes, it was used as entertainment....in minstrels. And it certainly was not entertaining to anyone other than white people who found humilitation and degradation of black people to be funny.

Do you wonder where "Jim Crow" comes from?

Check the history...

Minstrelsy

And before this even starts, yes, towards the end Blacks did participate in their own minstrel shows. But if you read carefully, it was because the white audiences demanded it. Blacks were attempting to garner some sort of profit in the market (sad, isn't it?)

This whole concept is very meaningful with regards to what is wrong with society today.

i just checked this since i posted the first time, and damn...
i do agree with a lot of what ivy said. because of a harmful history when a situation like this occurs it upsets a group of people. i have a sesnitivy level where i do not condone this activity, and i feel the pain that it can cause. if someone dressed up like an italian and walked around with a big plate of pasta shouting "mama mia" i would be like what's the deal?!
anyway, my point. the article said that the student was dress up as louie armstrong, and even though he darkened his face and we have all derermined that the act is not cool, i dont see why people are making him out to be some racest guy who likes to make fun of black people. i dont know this kid, or his motives, but from what was printed none of us can say that his act was purposely done to make fun of black people. yes this is a sensitive issue, yes he should not have done it, but how can we dictate that what he did was 100% wrong when we dont know him. he just could be very ingorant to the sensitivy level of other cultures. maybe he has never known a black person and that his actions were insensitive.
now, i still believe that there is a double standard. it my not be a realistic double standard becouse who has seen a black person dress up in white face?? but there are so many double standards and they piss me off. if we are really equal, not just black white but with all races and sex, they who do certain groups get away with more stuff than others? take this seasons episode of the real world...this girl throws a fork at a guy and pushes him. he tells the producers and wants her kicked off, but the producers say no. he says that if the role was reversed he would be kicked off so quick. yes, i know girls can not defend themselfs as well as guys, but this is a double standard also.
i guess i feel so strongly about double standards because i see them a lot. i'm all about respecting others, but i am also infavor of equality--no one should be more equal, or get away with anything that another group could not.

Damn, get over this color barrier!

I am so damned tired of hearing how Blacks were used by whites as many Blacks were instrmental in sending them on slave ships to many countries, not just the USA!

One of the Best Shows on early TV were with Blacks!

Any of you tell me that there is not a difference is more of a racist than anyone that I know! I see it every day in my shop! I saw it on the PD!

I have been robbed 3 times in 7 days and it was blacks who did it! I also lost a employee. Am I pissed, hell yes! Do you care that some of your own took 1800.00 $ from me as a small business man! F- No!

I get very tired of what happened years ago, lets talk about now!

Do I think all Blacks are like that, NO! I have many Black Friends, have had Black Employees so I am a Bad Person?

It is time some get off of your high horse and find out that when you bleed you bleed red! Da Get It!!!!!!!:confused:

Maybe when you all grow up a little then you may contact me!

Then F off! about your Racial Crap!

Maybe when you grow a little, you may find a real life!

I can see that you all postng on here are underpriviliaged, right!?:confused:

Tom,

I'm trying to think long and hard about this post becuase I know...or HOPE...that you mean well.

However, your post bothers me in a number of ways.

First of all, you are welcome to your opinion about slavery...I certainly have mine...but I dont necessarily think this discussion is about slavery as much as it is about being insensitive to a group of people. (however if you read PRIMARY sources, you'll know that there WAS a difference between what was considered slavery in West Africa, and how it differedm from the European concept. Also, you'll learn that "as many Blacks were instrmental in sending them on slave ships" was not the case at all)

But back to the original argument...

The type of entertainment that involved blackface did NOT put black people in a positive light. In fact, many of those negative stereotypes that were portrayed in minstrel shows are still around, and you probably seee them at least once a week in electronic media.

Blackface IS offensive. And no one is clueless enough to have another device for it.

I'm also confused as to who you're directing your post to?

"Get off your high horse...grow up a little...f off! about your racial crap"?

Complaining about black face isnt immature, nor is it playing the so called "race card".
If these men were truly portraying musicians in such a postive manner, then they wouldnt have tried to hide it...then they wouldnt have tried to hide it. I hope that these pictures come into public hands and I hope that the men responsible are punished.

I have friends in Kappa Sigma here at IU.

Similar to how you dont think all blacks are thieves, I dont think that all Kappa Sigmas are racists. However, I think that people who blatently hurt people (and yes, blackface does HURT) in that manner should be punished, as I think that people who rob and kill should punished.

"Then F off about your racial crap"?

I'm just not going to go there. You have NOT lived in this country as a person of colour, so how can you tell anyone what to do with their "racial crap"? I don't care how many of your brothers, friends, ex-girlfriends, whatever, are black...that was just tasteless and immature.

This is stupid how this is going on at campus after campus...it's like a semi-annual thing. Yeah, these people are in "college", but they obviously aren't educated about the history of minstrel shows NOR are they respecting their fellow Greeks (I know of a lot of NPC Greeks who don't consider NPHC members "real Greeks" because they don't know shee-it about what they do and don't care to learn). Blackface was done to be rude, crude, and socially inacceptable to a group of people, and once these meatheads realize that, maybe they wouldn't do it. Or, maybe they would.

Are you thinking about Black Like Me? I can't remember the author's name off the top of my head, but he took some kind of drug to make his skin black and wrote the book about his experience.

Great post, IvySpice!!

Good discussion overall...

I read the book "Black Like Me"some years ago (it's by John Howard Griffith) and it really is amazing how badly this guy got treated simply because of his skin color. Really pretty sick if you ask me. As a Southerner, I admit that race can be an issue, but only for those who MAKE it one. The Auburn incident was well...Auburn what do you expect??:rolleyes: And Tennessee the same thing. It wouldn't happen at Alabama because our greek system is being watched soooo closely for any signs of racist behavior. These idiots who dressed in blackface disgraced their organization and Southerners. The civil rights movement wasn't so long ago and very few people have forgotten what went on down here. Emmitt Till, Medgar Evers, MLK, Selma, Bull Conner and Birmingham...we will never get past all that if people here continue to behave as if it's 1950. I especially didn't like the fact that the Louie Armstrong wannabe claimed he was an Alpha Phi Alpha. That was in very poor taste, in my opinion. I get so tired of race being such an issue around here, but if stuff like this keeps happening I suppose it'll never stop being an issue.

dey is all a crew of idiotic people who does not represent their organitazion right. education means nothin unless dey for real learn life.

By the way, to all you Auburn and UT folks out there, don't take my post as "offensive" lol. The roll tide in me couldn't help it. ;)

I think a large part of a problem of this sort comes from simple ignorance - here's a great anecdote about one man's actual feelings and interactions with someone in blackface (even if I don't agree with some of the general conclusions drawn, it's still a good perspective).

Honestly, we'll never know if the guys at UT came with ill intent, dressing in blackface specifically in the minstrel tradition, if they had previous understanding of the impact and feelings of this tradition, or if they knew who Al Jolson was.

Obviously, if they didn't have this understading and showed up wearing shoe polish simply to round out their costumes, it doesn't lessen the impact on those students who they came into contact with - the racial insensitivity remains. However, if this intentional ill-intent was not harbored, I find it to be another sad example of just how little we understand each other on a basic level. I don't know if that makes it better, or worse.

I don' t think insensativity should be punishable. That's a dangerous road you go down. Perhaps people in the community should try to educate these individuals... But punish them!?

Hate to tell you but this is America... We don't (and shouldn't) punish people for being offensive. While the act of blackface might be something you see as wrong it's still a right to be offensive. Since the school recieves public funding it should stay out of the debate. The community on the other hand can protest to their heart's content.