Cleaning house = hazing ???
 

Okay I took this from another thread and a post by the amazing Tom Earp

I was talking in Ktsnake's thread about how a clean house is important, and I described that we have our pledges clean our house.

The way our system is set up is like this. Each pledge is given a duty, some are no doubt harder than others. They range from vacuuming the stairs and hallways to sorting mail to straightening the front yard (includes shoveling snow in winter) to cleaning the dining room (not the kitchen which is done by hashers) to cleaning our "breakfast nook/kitchenette" to cleaning the bathrooms (both men's and women's). Each duty usually takes no longer than 15 minutes to complete and they must be done everyday. An active member must then sign off on the duty sheet or the pledge will lose a point from their pledge program. We provide proper cleaning supplies so they aren't doing them with toothbrushes or anything like that. Usually after two weeks the duties are rotated so no one is stuck with the same duty during their pledge semester. For the really hard duties 2 pledges are assigned to it and those two guys will work out a system so that it gets done.

During second semester (b/c we don't take any spring pledges) the duties are permanently assigned. Starting with the highest roll number (ie the pledge who initiated first...#1 would be the highest) the guys are allowed to pick what there duty will be for the rest of the year. Fines are given out for each day the duty is not signed off on by a member of another pledge class.

I went a look at what the General Fraternity policies on Hazing were at the Beta website and nothing I read there seemed to say to me that this was hazing. However I was wondering what other GC'ers thoughts were.

Well pledges having to clean would be considered hazing no matter where you are. If any of them made it an issue on your campus I am sure your chapter would be in trouble. When it comes to brothers as long as ALL brothers share in the cleaning then its ok.

The pledges don't live in the house ... why should they be the ones cleaning it? Cleaning duties should either be divided evenly among all brothers, or all those who live in the house.

I wouldn't say it's "hazing" unless, like you said, you were making them scrub the house with toothbrushes or anything, but it does strike me as odd. When there aren't any pledges, who cleans the house then? I think the brothers will be less likely to leave messes if they know that they, rather than someone else, will have to clean them up.

Anytime a pledge group is singled out for a particular duty that is not part of new member education, it's hazing. I agree with everyone else, either everyone cleans the house (brothers and pledges) or hire a service. By keeping the pledges segregated based on performance of menial duties, you do not build brotherhood, you build divisions between what's a brother and what is a pledge, and that creates self-perpetuating problems for the chapter. A pledge is the future of your chapter, you treat him/her with respect, and in turn, they will respect you and the chapter.

This is especially true if brothers purposely mess things up worse than they need to, just because they know the pledges will have to clean it up. That's just childish. Initiated members should be setting the example for the new members.

All for one, and one for all.

FuzzieAlum, because they are pledges, thats why. The only thing I would have an issue with is after I was iniated, and didn't live in the house, having some one still sign off that did my job would piss me off if I was brother.

Pledges cleaning the house is definately hazing...

What we do is make a list of the sisters by ritual number and then make a list of the jobs from easy to more involved and give the oldest the easiest and hardest to the youngest. Everyone participates, and we do it once a semester, so usually all new members are in.

With general chores, all sisters living in the house have them.

It depends on your organization's definition
 

One thing I've learned here at GC is that hazing has no concrete definition. In fact it's VERY different from organization to organization.

I've read the SN policy and I'd assume it's probably similar for many other organizations. This particular activity would NOT be considered hazing. Provided that it does not interfere with studies, is not unusual, does not intentionally or unintentionally create situations in which the candidate would be made to feel uncomfortable.

Beta's scenario under SN policy would not be hazing either. However, if the brothers were to make a point of making a huge mess and then telling their pledges to clean it up that would be a pretty clear violation. Assuming none of that goes on and that it's a written part of their new member program and that there is proper oversight for abuses then I'd say he's on pretty firm footing.

Remember when you say something is "hazing" you should always say in what context... ie. for LXA (and I don't know this for a fact) hazing could occur any time you ask a new member to do something and actives aren't required to do it as well.

The definition varies from GLO to GLO to club and from state to state... Policies and definitions are even different depending on your school, IFC, PHC, etc.

Why don't anyone that has questions ask their nationals and say yes we make our pledges clean, is that ok? See what they say.

Our risk management quiz made up by HQ that we give once a year actually uses the example of the candidate marshal rounding up the candidates for a weekend to do 'house improvements'. It says this is fine as long as it is not out of the ordinary, is a written part of the candidacy process, does not interfere with scholastics and does not occur at odd hours (paraphrased).

We actually ALL clean our current house... It's probably the cleanest on campus but it's still a crappy house (we have shag carpet).

I guess each org is different. I know we might get in trouble for something like that. But I think if any pledge went to the news ,no matter what GLO they were apart of, and said "I was forced to clean," the nationals of that org would have to do something about it.

I know with Lambda Chi that could, and probably would be considered hazing. Our system work by rotating brothers and associate member through all the jobs such as upstairs and downstairs bathrooms, commons, deck and such. AM's and new initates have them more often than say a brother who has been here for 3 years. Besides, brothers and AMs working together builds brotherhood. We often will also asign a specific brother as task if they made a huge mess. I think it works very well. And speaking of house duties I need to go check and see if I have any this week.

Clear up some of the issues
 

Because we have summer rush here at Nebraska, most of our pledges (20 of 25) actually do live in the house. Therefore they are making the mess as well. Further for the ones who live out it makes sure that they come over to the house nearly everyday (something we obsess about because 80% of the pledges do live in and thusly are around...we don't want to have those guys be left out).

I have to disagree with the fact that simply having pledges do stuff not asked of the brothers is hazing. If that was the case, then having weekly lore tests, song tests, and learning about the Men of Principle Initiative would be hazing. You might say that well brothers before them did this same thing, but the duty aspect of being a pledge is something that has been done by every pledge class in the house. What is being asked of our pledges is not creating an environment of "mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule." (taken from StopHazing.org).

I do realize that the definition of hazing varies from GLO to GLO, but I did check Lambda Chi's website to see there definition and it was nearly identicle to that of Beta's, b/c that was the first thing that I thought of...maybe it is different for members of other organizations.

I do understand the concern some of you have about the brothers purposefully making messes. This has happened but it is very rare...I've only seen it happen 3 times in the three semesters that I've been here. I know that by having duties to do, I began to take greater pride in the house b/c it was always clean, and people noticed. Plus the doing it daily meant that the house always stayed relatively clean so it was never too tough of a job. That pride is definetly somethign that has permeated everyone and that respect keeps the actions of members at higher standards...

Legally....
 

According to FIPG, the legal definition of hazing is as follows: Any action taken or situation created, intentionally, whether on or off fraternity premises, to produce mental or physical discomfort, embarrassment, harassment, or ridicule. Such activities may include but are not limited to the following: use of alcohol; paddling in any form; creation of excessive fatigue; physical and psychological shocks; quests, treasure hunts, scavenger hunts, road trips or any other such activities carried on outside or inside of the confines of the chapter house; wearing of public apparel which is conspicuous and not normally in good taste; engaging in public stunts and buffoonery; morally degrading or humiliating games and activities; and any other activities which are not consistent with fraternal law, ritual or policy or the regulations and policies of the educational institution.

So regardless of whether your national policy specifically says house cleaning is hazing-- it is. Do you think they would choose to do it on their own if you weren't making them? Do you think it makes them feel equal or worthy to have to scrub toilets? And I hate to point this out, but according to the definition, "lore tests" and "song tests" can be categorized as hazing if it leads to embarrassment or degredation on the part of the New Member. What happens if they don't know something? That is the true test. So some groups stay away from those things completely.

I agree that just because an active member does something does not make it ok for New Members-- because I've seen alot of active members do stupid things.

Ultimately, if you have to ask, it probably is. And if its not something you would want to brag to your mom about or the President of your school-- you probably shouldn't 'make' them do it.

It's hazing, for sure. And you can bet your national thinks so as well. Having someone "clean" a part of the house for you, instead of having those that actually live there and make the mess clean it, that's hazing. And losing points for not getting your job "approved", definitely hazing! This instance just seems so cut and dry to me. I can't imagine a national or international organization not thinking this was hazing.

Re: Legally....
 

That's word for word our national policy on hazing. I don't see in there where it forbids house cleaning. I don't think it's "morally degrading", it dousn't "create excessive fatigue", if it produces physical or mental discomfort then as I said before it's not being done in a fair way.

Recall that Beta's example says the duties are simply normal chores, not done to make them prove their worth but more to keep the house in good working order and to teach the new members the value of a clean house. I'd assume that if a brother makes a huge mess on his own he'd be personally responsible to clean it up himself.

We have a very specific list of items that must be done in each area when someone is assigned to a chore list. You'd have to have a very biased interpretation of that hazing policy in order to come to the conclusion that it is indeed hazing.

If a new member doesn't want to do it they could always just say so...

But what happens...
 

What happens if he just says no? That to me, is the answer to the question.

If one has to be taught to value a clean house, and therefore your group's image, I would argue that you aren't selecting the right people. There are other, less demeaning, ways to teach New Members the importance of maintaining a great image. And why aren't the brothers expected to do the same? Is it not their responsibility to take care of the house as well. There is just no reason why this is a New Member responsibility versus a brother's responsibility.

Not to get personal but I HATE cleaning my house-- and I resent my husband when he does not help me-- AND I LOVE THE MAN. I cannot imagine that cleaning the house really gives most of these people a great feeling of "brotherhood".

Finally-- I am sure fraternity policies don't spefically list ALOT of things. "Gee-- it didn't say we could leave the pledges tied to this flag pole naked in the policies so that must mean its ok!" so I wouldn't be using that as a crutch to justify anything.

I think it is important to understand that every GLO has a different definition of hazing; same with the university policies chapters must abide by. (Of course some things are hazing to everybody.

Also, there are things forbidden "because of hazing" that may not actually be hazing. Consider:

-Making new members drinks until they puke, beating them with pointy sticks, making them run around campus in French maid outfits saying, "I love to clean for Mu Mu." I think most people would easily consider these hazing.
-Tests, cleaning duties, "always" wearing a pledge pin. These things can be conducted in perfectly dignified manners. If the tests are reasonable, the brothers intentionally don't make extra dirt, or the pledge pin can be taken off for showering, these are debatable. They are banned by many orgs because of the "slippery slope" argument - the tests get crazier every year and turn into line-ups, the brothers make you clean the icky toilet with a toothbrush, you have to get your nipple pierced and stick the pin in there in the shower ... the assumption is that if left to their own devices, collegians will eventually corrupt these activities.
-Making paddles or calling them "pledges." A paddle, if purely decorative, doesn't hurt anyone, and the term "pledge" by itself, while perhaps slangy, isn't necessarily derogatory. These two things are banned by many groups to help eliminate the perception of hazing, since people, especially non-Greeks, associate paddles with whacking and "pledging" (esp. in the NPHC world) with grueling processes.

Is all that fair? Maybe not. But hazing, just like excessive drinking and parties, has become enough of a liability to the continued existence of Greek life, that those in charge are willing to implement these changes if they think it will help us stick around. I guess my point is, Activity X may not hurt or demean the pledges - they might even enjoy it - but it could still be banned in the name of "stomping out hazing," because these rules are made with much more than just your chapter and your situation in mind.

I think it's funny that all the guys tend to not think that house cleaning is hazing, while all the women do.

Nevertheless, I stand with my gender in saying that house cleaning is not, and is hard to imagine as, hazing. First, having members and new members have weekly duties is commonplace among fraternities with or without live-in members. Anytime there is a party, homecoming, or any event at a fraternity house, someone has to clean up after the event.

In my chapter, it is understood that if you were at the party or event the night before, you will be at the house the day after at an agreed upon time to help clean up...regardless of your membership status. This wasn't mandatory, but just an understood thing within the chapter. I never felt pressured to do so, and actually had a good time cleaning and hanging out with brothers on a saturday morning. I could see if I was being told to scrub toilets or something that that was hazing, but this is a cooperative effort of the large part of the chapter. I guess then, that community service, rush, or even going to class because we have minimum grade point standards could be construed as hazing. I have a hard time considering any of these to be hazing...and I know that at least our host institution and our fraternity concurs.

Re: But what happens...
 

If he says no it's just one of many things that would factor into the brotherhood's decision on whether or not he'll be a full member. To say otherwise I think would be dishonest.

Actually the naked flag pole would be covered under SEVERAL parts of the hazing policy.

It's not near the stretch being made to say that house cleaning is bad.

KEPike, having everyone come down to clean the house after a party is not just having your new members clean the house. As Heather17 said, what happens if you don't want to clean and say no? He gets a knock against him, as you said it would factor into him becoming a full member. So, in actuality, if he doesn't want to do it, it's not really ok...because he gets that mark on his record...and hence, THAT'S why it's hazing. I hope that makes some sense.

I disagree.. I think you should be able to ask reasonable things of a candidate class and expect them to come through.

I'm saying that if you limit yourself to things where you can't actually ask someone to do something a normal person would consider reasonable.. then what is left to do?

From my understanding, anything that "pledges" or new members are forced to do that actives do not is considered hazing. Now if both new members and actives were responsible for cleaning the house then I would see nothing wrong with that. If you live in the house or make mess in the house then, you will have t clean it up. That's fair.
Forcing new members to clean while the active watch and then have to sign off on it is hazing. These new members may think that if they don't clean they won't be initiated, they may fear that that one of the actives may randomly say no you didn't do a good job and he'd lose a point. Or the member loses a point because he only spent an hour and a half cleaning the bathroom rather than 2 hours. If they fear that their actions while cleaning will affect their chances to initiate you are putting undue stress on them, and thus that is hazing. Asking EVERYONE to clean, or assigning duties to ALL members (active or not) then, no, that's not hazing. Just think about it...no one likes cleaning, it's not fun, and it's definitly not fun when certain people are singled out to clean while others sit back and monitor them.

from the sound of this thread, people wan't to just become new members or whatever they're called without having to do something first. it seems that with all of these threads, people just want to be handed a set of letters and be expected to have the rights within the organization that others have. that's the whole basis of earning your letters. that's why their called pledges, they're not brothers, they have to show and prove their loyalty. if the organization feels that cleaning a house is a show, then that's on them.

Well from the sound of it, I was horribly hazed as a pledge because I forced to study, forced to join campus organizations, forced to do community service hours, forced to attend functions of Beta Theta Pi, forced to clean my house, forced to get a 2.5 GPA, forced to learn the songs of Beta (many that are used in our Initiation ceremony...), forced to learn about history of my organization, forced to play or watch intramural sports, forced to attend pledge class meetings, forced to attend rituals.

However, I was never forced to drink, never paddled, never physically abused, never yelled at, never went on a meaningles scavenger hunt, made to wear clothes that violated good taste.

None of those things I did or our pledges do now creates a situation like the ones described by the FIPG.

The term Pledge is still used by the General Fraternity of Beta Theta Pi, and is the choice word when describing a potential new member.

Now that I find out I was hazed, perhaps I should explain our pledge program to demonstrate the impact of duties.

My pledge program was out of 1000 points and a minimum of 700 points were needed in order to initiate (all 24 of my pledge class reached these goals)
1st Semester GPA x100 = points for scholarship with a minimum expectation of 250 points needed to be earned
Fraternity Lore: 6 tests and 1 final. An 80% was needed to pass the tests and if passed 12 points were given. For the final you got your % of points out of 28. Minimum of 90 points had to be earned. Max of 100
Intramurals 10 points for each game you went to, 5 points for each game you went to and watched. Minimum of 40 points to be earned, max of 90.
Songs 25 songs to be learned with tests in lyrics and actual singing. 2 points awarded for each song. If failed but then later passed 1 point is given. Min of 42 points, and max of 50.
Outside Involvement: 40 points given for each outside organizations involved in. minimum of 80 points, max of 160.
Philanthropy 1 point for every verified hour of community service. Min of 18 , max of 50.
House Events 10 points given for attendance at chapter planned parties, serenades, BADD, __kai__events, other approved functions.

Obviously losing a point for not doing your duty, in the end doesn't make or break your opportunity to initiate unless you are having a lot of trouble in other areas.
The way the signing off aspect is done is that a pledge does their duty then asks the active to sign off, just to make sure that it has been done. Guys are honestly not pricks about making things spotless, that's the point of having them doing it everyday. If I think something hasn't been done properly, I just tell them to make sure that they get it tommorrow. Again it is a 15 minute thing.

As to comment on Heather's remarks that perhaps we aren't choosing the right guys for our house. One this is a ridiculous statement, b/c you don't choose new members on whether they are going to have pride in the house. Two, my chapter at the University of Nebraska was one of 4 chapters to win the John Riley Knox Award for Chapter Excellence this past summer. We also had the highest GPA on our campus and in all of Beta with a 3.51 this past Spring Semester. 100% of our membership for the past 4 years has been involved with at least one campus organization. We also won the excellence in recruiting award this past summer, as well as the Best Ongoing Service project award as well. I find it hard to believe that we are recruiting the wrong type of guys. If for some reason you may doubt my statment of these awards won click here and here and here. Further, I told my parents about it all the time when I was a pledge, and my parents know that our pledges do it now.

I'm honestly surprised that so many people think this is hazing, I honestly feel that I have to defend myself. I truthfully never once thought to ask until I saw the esteemed Mr. Earp's comment.

Perhaps if you all saw the way in which the duties were carried out you would see that the request is reasonable and not entirely difficult at all.

Betarulz -

Have there ever (to your knowledge) been any pledges who complained/refused to do the cleaning?

We're talking 25 18 year old guys - if they learn to clean bathrooms and do it for their wives 10 years later, well, 23-skiddoo. ;)

OT: I believe the word "pledge" is far less demeaning than some of the cutesy-poo alternatives I've heard, and all that I can think of with new member is "huh, huh, huh - you said member." I think when we go overboard with calling this or that hazing, it makes us look far guiltier than we are - sort of like the husband who buys his wife a dozen roses every time he cheats on her.

Betarulz! congrats on the awards. I like your pledge program too.

It is the use of the word "forced" that bothers me. One should not be forced to learn about the group they are joining-- they should want to. But, in my opinion, cleaning the house, when the brothers don't have to as well, is outside of learning about the group.

As far as "earning" letters, my sorority does not do that. I feel that we should select quality women who are examples of what our group stands for and they are interested in joining. The education period is a time for them to learn about the group-- not necessarily to prove anything or jump through hoops, worrying about whether we want them to join. They go through weeks of recruitment being courted to chose our group-- we give them a bid and invite them to join because we think they will be good for our sisterhood-- and then all of the sudden they aren't worthy to be treated with the same respect we treat initated members?? I guess I am alone here but that just doesn't make sense.

It's not to say that we just give our letters away-- but I think there is something different about "being forced"ninto earning them and wanting to wear them because they believe in what they stand for. And my group's values just don't include hazing.

I can't remember which one, but I know one of the national fraternities initiates new members right away and they then go through a "introduction" process to learn about the group.... so one earns the letters because who they are, not what they did.

if they're trying to pledge my organization, i'll be damned if they don't know anything. you're right, they don't have to do anything, and they also don't have to intake either. being in a fraternity isn't for everyone, i'm not going to make you learn the info, you can just up and walk OWt if you want to. just drop line. people we all want and like can't always make it. earning the privlidges that come with becoming a member aren't for everyone. they're for those who prove their dedication to the organization. if you don't know info on your organization, then how the hell are you going to know what your standing up for? and what are you going to do after they prove they're no good? take away their letters? shouldn't have "given" to them in the first place.

I can't really put it diplomatically but I smell a pile of BS here...

Let me give you a hypothetical...

You give a bid to a young lady.. she accepts.. Then she doesn't really show interest in showing up to NM meetings... she doesn't learn a damned thing about the sorority (because she could care less) and just generally doesn't care. Other than that though, she's a woman of decent character and doesn't otherwise have too many flaws... Just in dedication to your organization.

The events were there for her to show up at but she didn't show up.. she still wants to be initiated.

Seriously now.. does she get initiated?

The answer
 

No she doesn't-- I thought about it after I posted and I was not entirely clear. The women still have to participate in the education process. We have a program that involves attending 10 events in different subject areas to learn about everything from risk management to building self esteem, and then weekly meetings. If for some reason though this person cannot complete a planned event because of another commitment, she can then chose an appropriate activity that meets the subject matter to replace it. No points are earned or taken away.

My sorority's education process is not about proving your worth or that you're willing to bleed for sisterhood-- but one obviously has to show that they are committed to being a good member who genuinely wants to learn about the sorority. My point was no one is made to feel like they have to earn or prove anything. Initiation is not held over their heads as something that can be taken away if they don't do X, Y, or Z. If a New Member is completing the program, and thereby shows she will be a dedicated member and a woman of character, then she is eligible for initiation, just like any other group.

So by your own admission you interpret those rules to say that we may set out some required tasks that must be performed before initiation so long as they don't violate the hazing policy.

Some of ours include the candidates administrating homecoming (or greek week), setting up at least one party, raising money for their initiation and our new member program that includes history, leadership training, etc.. They also have to get involved in at least one other campus organization.

Just so I'm not misunderstood, this is not how we currently clean our house. I am just arguing that if this is the way we operated I don't see how you could call it hazing:

I'm still failing to see where if you wrote a list of things in a room that must be done each day for example...

Sweep floors
Dust light fixtures
Dust shelves
vacuum carpets
windex windows
dust furniture

I fail to see where that is hazing. So long as the chores are reasonable. What I'm saying is... if let's say brother Billy Joe decides to eat his McDonalds food in the living room... He then starts talking to someone, leaves and forgets about it...

Billy Joe is technically still responsible for cleaning that up. The new member that had that room would only pick that mess up if he wanted to... the rest of the things on the list must be done though.

This is how we currently run our house cleaning program... Except that we all participate. I still fail to see where it would be hazing though if just candidates do it.

I've looked and there is no clause that says "if you require a new member to do something, actives have to do it also".

I make my example to show that such a program can exist according to the letter of the law. If it's administered correctly it is not hazing.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree and call it day.

Part of this debate stems from the differences between fraternities and sororities. Lambda Chi, particularly, states no separation between brothers and AMs. That means in assigning chores too. That would make it hazing by LCA standards but I don't think that would be considered hazing in a legal case. Talk to you consultant from nat'ls if you have a question about it, but it seems fine to me.

Even though this thread may die, I think there is alot to be learned from it.

Guys, even though we may not consider things hazing, and even if we adminster our pledge program according to all the rules set forth from the school and fraternity, there are still those even in the Greek system who could construe house cleaning, etc. as hazing.

I would say to those chapters who don't haze and have their pledges required or forced to do things, always remain aware that these tasks must erve a higher purpose, and thus conveyed to the pledges. If you are having house cleanings, then be sure to make the pledges aware that in doing so, your house will remain clean, and will hopefully present your house, greek system, school, and fraternity in a positive light. This way, the pledges will take pride in the appearance of the house and will be motivated on their own to complete their duties.

But what others are warning is that the house cleanings, mandatory sings, etc. can lead to hazing. Maybe a house cleaning is done with the intent of maintaining a positive image, but it may eventually turn into a situation where members force pledges to clean solely to make the house. I think what they are trying to say is that things can go south quickly. Therefore, be sure to always police your members and again always have a reason for doing anything in your pledge process.

Nevertheless, I think I've learned something from this thread, so carry on.

House cleaning is not hazing, it's how it's administered. As long as everyone is required to participate, it's okay. Obviously there are lots of us that have small houses and small groups that require members for these tasks. Fortunately I lived in a house where we paid for a housekeeper and cook. Something to think about.....if you have someone needing cash, have your chapter or housing board pay them to clean the house----takes care of 2 problems with one solution!

Re: Clear up some of the issues
 

Then it's definitely hazing in my book. Especially if they earn POINTS (which I am assuming are required to "earn" or "qualify" for initiation)...that is separating the class from the actives, which can lead to more overt forms of hazing down the road.

How about this angle?

A fraternity at my school has two work weeks each year. Thoroughly vacuuming the house, cleaning the windows, thoroughly cleaning the bathrooms, dusting everything, etc.

The first work week is right before rush, and is done by all the brothers. No pledges participate because there aren't any.

The second work week is just before spring semester starts. This is done entirely by the brothers who joined the past fall. (They are initiated by this time.)

Is this hazing? Every member has to participate in one work week per year, and it's the same type of work - the only difference is the timing.