A pledge with a kid?
 

I just wanted some advice from you guys. I think that I may have evidence to support the fact that one of our recent pledges has a kid. Now if that is okay with nationals, I guess it's okay with me. But I was wondering if she does actually have a kid and she has blatantly lied about it to me and a few other sisters, wouldn't that be reason to question her membership? What should I do? First off, I am not positive that she does have a child and I do not want to make a big deal out of it until I know for sure. On the other hand, her lying to me really bothers me and I don't want a sister that is a liar. Do I rat her out? Wait to find out the truth, in which case it could be too late and she could already be an initiated member? Or, drop it and keep this bit of information to myself? I could just ask her but like I said before, she would just lie to me. Thanks for any feedback!


P.S. Does anyone know the policy on women with chidren?

why would there be a policy on women with children pledging?
There are too many women with children that pledge organizations, i myself did so as well as members after me. As for lying about it, thats at the least questionable character

If she had said she had a child would you have chosen her over other recruits?

If she can balance the sorority and taking care of a child wouldn't that show that she is HUGELY worthy of membership (I'd hope?)

I'm just speaking from experience.. While we haven't ever had a candidate in my fraternity with a child, actually one does have a Godson that he spendsa lot of time with. It certainly doesn't detract from him being a good member.. He used to bring the kid around on weekends when he was active. Was actually pretty cool. Other members have been married and still been very productive and great brothers all around.

All I'm saying is give the girl a chance and maybe forgive a minor transgression such as that. If you can't honestly say that it wouldn't have changed your mind in her becoming a member one way or the other for her to have a child then you're on pretty shaky ground being angry about the situation.

Who, If lieing is part of it, then, what then?

It is not easy, enuff said!

Most Greeks on Site are Social and therefore have certain things that must be done and time spent.
It is not wrong to have a child, BUT? That is the question.

If this person is afraid and wants to join a Greek Organization then put up front.

Women can be B, but they may have the Motherly points of life.

This is a discussion that I will make a point about, and will only make it once. Well unless we get into a good discussion!



:) :D

Speking as a parent, you need to look at this as an opportunity instead of an "image" thing or however you are looking at it. This should be good for her and good for you. I don't understand how things can change overnight if in fact she is a parent???

(By the way, the "Kid" is a person. Using "child" instead of the "K" word seems to be a bit more respectful. Okay, now I'll get off my soap box.)

Okay, Before I get all these defensive parents I would like to point out that the issue is that she lied about her situation, not the situation itself. I was originally concerned because she has lied about other things and I decided to be more sceptical about the things she says.Second, the reason I addressed whether or not there are policies about women with children is because I know that there are organizations that have policies about married women, so why wouldn't they have rules about women with childeren? I understand that a women who is able to balance a family and a sorority is worth having in my chapter, but is having someone who would lie about such a large part of her life in order to get into the sorority worth it?

Then you must ask yourself -- if she had told the truth would you have let her in?

This is a much more complex issue I think than you make it out to be. I can understand lieing about something like this. Being in a sorority might mean that much to her -- and in this case it might be a good thing.

However, if this is just one thing that she's not honest about among many other stupid things.. If there's one thing I can't stand it's people that lie about stupid things.

But I don't feel it should be so simple as someone who lies = bad person. Immature... insecure... maybe. But those things can be fixed isn't that part of the mission of GLO's?

I'm also not a parent.. nor do I have plans to be in the forseeable future...:cool:

Since the issue is not with the fact that she may have a child, but with the fact that she may have lied about it, then I suggest you step back for a minute and think through what you would do if the alleged lie was about something else that your National had no firm policy on. (i.e. said she lettered in a sport but didn't, lied about being prom queen, etc.)

Would you still feel like you want to go to the other members of your organization with the information?

If the answer is yes, then do what you feel you have to do.

But like KTSnake mentioned, I hope you take into account how much being a part of your organization must mean to her if she chose to hide something that is such a big part of her life.

question? did she flat out lie and say she doesn't have a child or would it be a lie by omission by not mentioning that she has a child. If it's a lie by omission then I would consider that she probably did it because she really wanted to join your sorority.
As for women with children we have one sister who had an 8 year old daughter when we initiated her and had a brand new daughter a few months later. In our current new member class w have 2 more women with children. They have all been very active and quality members for us.

I don't know about any other organizations, but my sorority won't allow us to pledge a woman if she is married or has a child. We had a problem with this last year. A girl went through recruitment, and she never lied about having a child, but the sisters who rushed her for some reason saw no reason to tell anyone about it. She got a bid, but when we found out that she was a parent, we had to ask her to de-pledge. There is the image issue, (how will it look to others on your campus). We also couldn't understand what she would really get out of being in a sorority. I guess it just seemed like she wouldn't have anything in common with most of the other girls. Also, why would you want to be spending so much money to join a sorority when you have a child to take care of? If I were her, I would have rather spent that money on my child.
This probably all sounds very superficial to some people, but think about it. It just doesn't seem reasonable to me for a girl with a baby to be in a sorority. Plus, if she lied about it, then that is definatley a reason not to want her in the chapter as far as I am concerned.
I also don't think there is anything wrong with worrying about the image of your chapter. Greek life is a lot about image (sometimes more than it should be), and the image that your chapter gives off is important, even if it is a superficial thing to worry about.
My opinion, if you are even having to question whether or not you want her there, then you should not have to pledge her, and I don't think you should feel guilty if you ask her to de-pledge.

Lindsey

I can understand why so many people would be concerned about the image of your chapter if you had a member with a child or who was married. . . but when it actually happens, you may think differently...
When I pledged Gamma Phi Beta as a freshman, we had a member (a grad. student) who was 27, married, and the mother of two. This is not against our national or chapter regulations, and my chapter had no problem with her being in our chapter. Not only was she a dedicated, wonderful member, she donated her own home on a beautiful lake so that our chapter could use it for retreats, initiation, etc. I was a little skeptical of her at first, I'll admit, but there was nothing in the rules against it. She graduated, moved on, and now she's an active alum.

My perspective on this changed a lot recently... shortly after she was initiated in 2000, a rumor circulated that one of our members had eloped... the rumor was true. This member, at 19 years old, eloped with her long-time boyfriend. Our chapter was ecstatic, much to her surprise. She thought there were rules against married members, and there are not. We were disappointed that we weren't informed of the wedding, but her husband is extremely welcome now. Last Spring, we had a candle passing, and it turned out that this member was pregnant. Some of our members thought it was odd, that she was too young, etc. In her family, 21 years old is LATE to be having children... so we accepted her culture, threw her a baby shower, and it's been great. There is a clause in our bylaws that says you cannot be unwed and pregnant (you're asked to resign), but you CAN have children from a previous relationship before pledging, and you CAN be pregnant and remain active, so long as you are legitimately married... Our "mommie" member was very upset when she learned of her pregnancy... she was excited, but was afraid we would force her to resign... it's wonderful to have someone who is so close to explain the pressures of pregnancy, marriage, and soon, childbirth and motherhood. Our new members were a little skeptical at first of the 8-month pregnant member at Bid Day, but now they're so excited to learn that we will have a beautiful Gamma Phi Beta legacy in the next month!

If your members are lying about something so important in their lives in order to be a part of something else important, you may want to think about just confronting her. Look at what your bylaws (national and local) say and have someone she respects speak to her... an advisor, the president, her best friend or pledge sister... she'll confide in someone and work things through if the sorority is that important to her.

I don't understand the big deal about having a child and pledging. There have been people in my organization that had a child and they were actually the most dedicated member in the chapter. I also don't understand the thing about "image." I'm not saying that people are like this in your chapters, but it's funny how some sororities would let people in their chapter that sleep around with every guy and get drunk every other night. Then they turn around and say no to someone who has a child.
Also just because they person has a child, doesn't mean they can't relate to their pledge class. They might have more responsiblities than others, but they are still a student and want to have sisters just like all of us.

to mozlvr:
What proof do you have that she has a child? Have you asked her flat out if she has a child?

If a woman's organization can't support woman on women's issues (ie having children perhaps out of wedlock) then what the heck are we doing!?

Okay, before everyone says "How dare you look at this situation, this person would be a great asset" you also need to ask a few questions.
You said that you have caught this girl lying about multiple things, are these things that you feel you could bring up her membership about? or just random things and this particular issue you feel you could bring her membership on?

As for having members with children, I think it depends on two things.
Your campus' Greek Life and your chapter's involvement.

For instance, at my campus it wouldn't have been a really big problem. But, at my campus we only had 7 sororities, and total was 95. I was also in a smaller school located in the south. Down there women get married at 16 and 17 (yes, it is true) and have children early, too. So it really isn't a big deal.

Now, if I were at a campus that had TONS of greek involvement and TONS of chapters and such it may be more difficult. With all of the mandatory events, and obligations we had just in our chapter (at a school with a small greek life) I know it would be difficult to maintain those requirements. That being said if I had been at a school that more than we did, it would be nearly impossible.
Think about it- all of our retreats were mandatory, recruitment workshops, RUSH (can a woman really be away from her child for basically two weeks?), initiation and preinitiation events, certain campus wide events like Greek Week, All sings, etc.

Okay, I already know the argument against this- That potential member with a child has thought about this before hand and they know what to expect.
My rebuttal- NO THEY DON'T. You only partially know when you pledge how much time it takes to balance your social life, your sorority, your school and maybe a job. Add in family life if you go home some.... now... I sure as heck did not know that for two weeks in August my life would be nothing but AGD- and I was fine with it, but I didn't have a son or daughter.

Being in a sorority has its responsibilities too. I am not saying DONT pledge women with children, not at all. I am saying that perhaps in certain places it is not wise. At my school, it would have been fine, at other schools probably not.

On a side note- we had an LC come visit us while I was a collegian and she told us about a woman that came through rush and brought her 2 year old daughter to all the parties. She quit rush because she didn't realize how hard it would be, but for the first rounds there was a two year old running around.

Different orgs have different rules on sisters that are married and sisters that have children. My chapter doesn't have a problem with married sisters but a Phi Mu at my school said that any girl that gets married is forced to go alum. At the KD chapter at my school you can't have children and be active. Just different orgs have different rules and for different reasons.

My point- there are legit reasons for not having members with children at some places. I do not think that IMAGE is a legit reason, but I know that obligations are.

Superficial indeed!
 

Okay, I've thought about it, and you're right -- It sounds very superficial. What would you have had in common? You and your sisters might have been surprised how much you had in common, how much you could have grown from having this woman as a member of your sorority, and how much you might have been able to offer her. Too bad. You may have lost out on a really great sister.

From my vantage point, there is no better image for a GLO to project than valuing true sisterhood/brotherhood above all else. Just my $0.02.

This actually happened to my chapter back in the day (late 1980s). This girl went through rush, and while we knew she was slightly older than your typical pledge (late 20s) no one ever asked if she had a child. I had a couple of classes with her, and studied at the library with her, and the issue never came up. So, she completes her new member period and becomes a sister. Later that year, right before our spring formal, I ran over to her apartment to get something - can't remember what. I looked over at her spare bedroom, and there are two miniature bunk beds, a huge toy box and other kid-centered things there.

I looked at her and asked her if she had kids. She told me she didn't - she kept that room for when her little brother and sister came to visit her. I didn't really believe it, so I let the subject drop.

The following fall, this particular sister asks me to be in her wedding, and I went with her to her home town to get fitted for my bridesmaid dress. It was then I found out that 1) this would be her 2nd marriage and 2) she did indeed have 2 kids. Her mother turned out to be a fountain of information.

She de-activated when we returned to campus. One of our sisters moved into her apartment complex ratted her out to our e-board. I honestly don't think our e-board would have been as angry with her if she had admitted from the beginning that she had kids. She made most of the meetings, and she was a great girl.

I'll ask it again because I think it's important:

Would you have given her a bid if she had said she had a child?

I honestly don't see a problem with having a new member or a sister who is married and/or has children.

The time commitment for a marriage isn't too much different from the time commitment for any serious relationship (by which I mean engagement, living together/domestic partners, or headed for engagement). You still spend time with your SO, you may or may not live together, etc. Yet nobody's going to ask you to go alum for getting engaged... but put on a wedding band and it's out the door you go. If anything, being engaged is the point in a relationship requiring the greatest time commitment, because you're finalizing your decision to spend the rest of your life with this one individual, not to mention planning your wedding!

As for having a child, absolutely it is a priority in your life, but you don't have to be a mother to the exclusion of all else. I for one intend to have a career (if the market ever turns around :( ) and continue to be involved in my community no matter the age of my future child(ren). So, if a woman has time to be a mom and a sister, why shouldn't she be given the opportunity to do so? If rush is the big concern, have dad take the children on a dad-son or dad-daughter camping trip for a couple of weeks :)

ilovemyglo - I'm surprised the two-year-old was allowed into the rush parties. At my school only sisters and PNMs are allowed in the rush rooms unless there's an emergency, and two-year-olds, while havoc-wreaking, are not an emergency. If she'd pledged, would her sorority have let her child attend initiation too??

mozlvr - If your new member has lied outright about having a child - i.e. she definitely has a child and she has said outright "I do not have a child" - you could have a problem with her as a liar. But if it's just an omission - she never mentioned the child - and she is continuing to meet her obligations as a new member, I don't see the problem.

My chapter had a sister with a child. She was a wonderful, active, spirited addition to her chapter....and her little girl was adorable in her "KD legacy" t-shirt. Yes, she did have problems devoting time to the chapter....but she was there for enough of the important things that I feel we would have missed out on a lot if she was not a part of our sisterhood!

Recruitment is hardly the time to really get to know someone. I think that I would be a bit taken off-guard if I'm prepared to talk about sorority history and a PNM busts out with "Oh, I'm married/divorced/have a child." And I'm sure these women do not want to make it come to that. How do they know that the sisters will not immediately reject them once they find out the truth? We're all aware of the two-faced sorority girl stereotype. :(

But..........if someone is lying about all kinds of other important that's a different issue completely. The situation surrounding this woman's "other lies" is unclear to me, but is she lying to protect her big lie (i.e. having a child). Maybe then it's forgiveable?

Aphigal: I *loved* your post....rock on, girl :D

Whether people like it or not, fraternities and sororities are private organizations that do have the right to pick and choose their members -- much like country clubs.

Often times women in sororities choose their new members based on common interests, beliefs, and social circles -- if a person has a "standards issue" that clashes with the purpose or the values of a sorority (such as raising a child out of wedlock) they have a right to deny her membership. And if a person flat out lies about that "standards issue", then they probably shouldn't be considered for membership regardless of the circumstances.

I don't make the rules, I'm just telling you how it is.

On a practical note, many chapters require their members to live in the house for at least a year -- how are you supposed to do that with a child? Let's be practical people!!!

We had a similar issue and were forced to de-pledge a girl who had a child, as it is against our by-laws. The wierd thing is that she put down on her forms that she didn't have any children, and we never saw the kid until we'd already offered her a bid.

That was the least of our concerns with her, though... she turned out to be a nutjob....we'd given her a chance even though she didn't rush well, and WOW were we mistaken. I was just glad our bylaws gave us a way out of simply having to say "You're a freak, turn in your pledge manual."

She went on to pledge another sorority, who we fully warned that this girl was a freak, but they took her anyway. And wow, did they ever regret it!

Hmm... well, I guess this was less about the girl having a daughter than her being really scary. Sorry!

Thank you!
 

ZChi2:

Yes, I totally agree with you!:

"I don't understand the big deal about having a child and pledging. There have been people in my organization that had a child and they were actually the most dedicated member in the chapter. I also don't understand the thing about "image." I'm not saying that people are like this in your chapters, but it's funny how some sororities would let people in their chapter that sleep around with every guy and get drunk every other night. Then they turn around and say no to someone who has a child.
Also just because they person has a child, doesn't mean they can't relate to their pledge class. They might have more responsiblities than others, but they are still a student and want to have sisters just like all of us."

I have sisters with children who are wonderful assets to my organization, and we are better off because of their perspective. I've seen some sorority women doing things that are, in my opinion, far more questionable than... :eek: being a mom:eek:

Of course, fraternities and sororities have the right to pick and choose their members. Sometimes this is done using appropriate criteria and sometimes it isn't.

This to me is the real crux of the question that started this thread. If a member began membership in the sorority with a lie and then continues to lie about it, then I would question her integrity. It might be forgivable -- perhaps she was so afraid of rejection that she felt "compelled" to lie -- but I would want to look into it.

On the other hand, on a number of campuses chapters don't have houses at all, or do not have a requirement like this. But if there is such a requirement, then the reason for not extending a bid to a woman with a child would be because she can't comply with the requirement, not because she has a child. And I wouldn't assume that having a child would keep her from living in the house; I'd ask her up front how she would fulfill this obligation.

If she lied, she goes.

To answer some of your questions the girl did not flat out lie about having a child nor did she lie through omission. She actually lied about several things that surrounfd the issue. There are too many things to go into but an example is that she said that she was babysitiing one day when questioned about the child at her apartment and she said that she did not work. Now, maybe its just me but babysitting is a job! There are several other situations that I do not believe that she has been honest about. The non-baby related things that she has lied about were ways that she manipulated people to get information out of them. I think that the first lie can be excused but the fact that she is supossedly continuing to lie raises some issues and that is why I began this thread.

P.S. To whoever asked, I do not know if we would have taken her if she had told the truth because I do not know what our bylaws are.

like many i see know reason not to let someone with a child into a org. my big had a son when she came thur, & was a very active member. one of our sisters is getting ready to have a baby. PLUS one of our pledges, my best friend, has a 9 month old plus is having another.

There are jobs (which you have to have taxes taken out of, have a schedule for, etc), and there are things you do to make money (i.e. babysitting). Since I was 15, I have not considered babysitting to be a *job*. Maybe she is a liar in other ways, but I know I often watch kids of friends of mine who are not in school, and I certainly wouldn't consider that a job. If she is all around dishonest, that's a problem, but unless you can verify that she has a child before bringing it up to others in your org, I think you might be setting it up for an embarassing fiasco that need not happen. Have a one to one with her, and see if that helps.

I'm with KTSnake.

Would you have had interest in her and given her a bid if you had known she had a child?

I don't know what kind of greek system everyone else here has at their campus, but at my campus the sororities are all VERY competitive and at times very superficial. This kind of situation would ruin the reputation of the sorority here, and that is definately not a good thing.

I will say that my school is considered very conservative, and for the most part doesn't have too great a view of the greek system as it is, so a situation like this would probably not go over very well.

I really do not think this would even be an issue in any of the 11 NPC chapters on my campus. If they found out that the woman had a kid, she would be asked to de-pledge. I know this is true for my chapter, and I can say with much certainty that it would be the same in any other chapter.

You can think I am too concerned with image and superficial things if you want to, but that is my opinion.

Lindsey

Mozlvr, first, I would get familiar with your bylaws before getting up in arms about the child. Not being harsh, but telling you to take a step back and get all the facts you need for your part of the arguement.

Second, the lying can be detrimental. You need to trust your sisters, and she isn't starting out on the right foot. But, I guess I'm still not clear about what she lied about exactly...Did you omit the truth or outright lie?

Lastly, the child can be a hindrance or a blessing, it all depends on how you handle it. Do you have a chapter advisor you could ask to speak with her? Maybe you should have a non-biased adult speak with her.

As to whether someone with a child should be admitted--I guess that's the call of the individual organization. Like Lindz said, it would be frowned upon at the big Southern universities.

That being said, GLOs need to make sure that a PNM who's a parent clearly understands when a child can and can not be broght to group functions. Some people are totally dense about this and would bring a child to rush, formals, events with alcohol, and even initiation.:rolleyes:

I agree with what sigmagirl said. Please get your facts straight before you make assumptions. I really hope that someone talks to her and flat out ask her not only does she have a baby, but about the other things she lied about. Also I'm not sure what else she lied about http://www.clicksmilie.de/sammlung/f...fragend013.gif. Manipulation and lying are two different things even though both of them are wrong. I'm sure the reason why some of us are confused about your situation is that we would probably have to be in your chapter to understand.
But if you ask her to de-pledge, I hope that you all don't say it is because of your child. It seems like you all have other problems with her and the baby is the last of you troubles.

You definately need to get your stuff straight. You've presented absolutely NO reason to ask this girl to depledge. Look up your bylaws (you should have a copy if you're in Panhel -- I know everyone at my school got one) and THEN figure out if this girl has even lied.

No, saying she baby-sits and then subsequently noting that she does not have a job DOESN'T COUNT.

This is ridiculous!

Like HotDamn said, I don't see where the grounds for de-pledging her are, UNLESS there is some by-law that says she can't have children. Just because a person tells a lie, and from what you say, small ones about stupid stuff, ok, so they tell dumb lies, I'm sure someone else may have stinky breath and someone else drinks a little too much, etc (just examples). But unless it was osmething crucial and detremental to your org, its not that serious from what you're telling us. As far as not allowing women with children, I think that that sucks in any shape or form. That's like saying that JUST because you have a child or are married, you're not good enough, or you're telling them that WITHOUT GIVING YOU A CHANCE we KNOW you can't handle it. I mean, that is unfair. I'm very sure that most people with children wouldn't even think of joining something as time consuming and costly as a sorority and fraternity without considering whether or not they would be able to handle it all and still put the child's needs first (yes there are those few irresponsible ones, but they are few). And shutting them down for having a child because you have a "reputation" to uphold is crap because unless you have a policy that says that all members must be virgins when they pledge and the entire time they're in undergrad then the only difference between you all and them is that you missed the bullet so to speak. I have a child, and even if I didn't I wouldn't want to be a part of an organization that discriminated upon prospective members based upon past "mistakes". They'd be missing out on the talents, resources and dedication that I can offer, all qualities that also make me a good parent.

Ok, I'm through LOL http://www.clicksmilie.de/sammlung/engel/engel033.gif

The sad thing is....
 

You want to know the sad thing... back in 1995 when i was a senior i was 25 and i wanted to pledge more then anything in the world. But, i was never given a bid because I had many things against me when coming to pledge a sorority: my age, my class rank( Senior), and i wasn't southern! Three deadly strikes when you attend a southern school.

I look at this and say... dang! i could of pledged if those were my only issues vs. having a baby. But having a baby isn't an issue. A sorority is to be for life. and a sororoity is a WOMAN'S organization. and as women we will have children and for some of us we have a child. Like someone said earlier if we cannot support a woman who has children and who still wants to be apart of a sorority then what are we doing? Denying a woman the right to be apart of an organization only because she is a mother is outragious. Yes traditionally women are to pledge in college as single and childless ,but today is a different time and as i see it in my own situation these times have changed drastically in the last few years. Alumnae Initations were not heard of back then, and here i am 3 weeks away from being initated in to Alpha Phi at 33 years old married and with a baby.

If this person wants to join and feels she can maintain school and motherhood i say more power to her! Granted, whether or not She lied maybe that should be the only issue to worry about, but to deny a woman the right to be apart of a GLO because of her only issue is being a mom then we have just taken huge footsteps back in time.

Reprimand her for lying, but not for being a mom! Being a mother is the greatest joy in life and to restrict her for being a mother is sad and driscrimative.

She may suprise you and be the best Sister you have and can rely on!

These are just my 2cents!
Laura :)

pledge with a kid is not a problem...
 

First of all there is no national stand point on new members with children. Secondly, if she did lie, she may be afraid of others being overly judgmental (Is she wrong?)Lastly, one of my pledge sisters had a child-but she gave it up for adoption. How would you expect her to answer a question like that? Yes, she had a child but no she doesn't have one now? I really don't think it's your business. Do you ask all the pledges if they've had abortions or if they're virgins? You better be careful before jumping into these waters. A girl that had a child went through rush and she was very open about it, only one sorority invited her to anything-now she is panhellenic president and the BEST sister and person. I wish we had given her more of a chance....

Superficiality, pettiness, hypocrisy--is this how we want to be characterized?
 

It seems downright archaic that a sorority would have bylaws against an active with children. Is the problem the conflicting commitments of sorority life and children, or is the fact that children are an unmistakable sign of sexual activity? If the latter's the case, how can they make sure that every active is a virgin? :rolleyes:

I feel the MOST IMPORTANT issue is whether or not she's been lying, and what she's lying about. Otherwise, please come up with a "better" reason to depledge her, if you have to at all.

Girl, you got me cracking up http://smilies.networkessence.net/co...hterpurple.gif

I was thinking the same thing.

When I was an undergrad, I lived in a suite with a woman who was in another sorority and had a child. The child lived with her grandparents during the school year. She saw her child almost every weekend. She seemed to be very active in her sorority. It helped that her parents were essentially raising the child until her college graduation. She said that she didn't know how she would go to college if it weren't for her mother.