People you don't want as sisters
 

What should one do if someone expresses an interest in your organization, but you know you would not be proud to call them your sister?

I don't mean, "Oh, she isn't pretty enough," or, "I think she fits in better at Mu Mu." I mean, she doesn't even come close to representing what your organization stands for and she very well might cause problems within the chapter/alum group.

I suppose you can ignore her interest, if it's not expressed directly to you, but what if she does- if she asks you to take her to a rush event, or asks how alumnae initiation works?

Please note that this is NOT directed at anyone on this board. I realize we have quite a few gals on here rushing, or looking into alum initiation, and I don't want them to think I'm referring to them. I'm actually thinking of stuff that happened offline, although it could be applicable here as well - seeing as we do get PNMs on here frequently. What if Rhonda Rushee asks you about your org, and you've seen from her actions on here that she is a complete pyscho? Do you discourage her? Try to pawn her off on another organization? Ignore her?

Well, someone can be completely normal on here and psycho in real life. Or vice versa.

I'm assuming you don't mean someone who is a friend - just a random person? I think I would simply tell them we are not taking members at this time.

Ah, yes. I am very versed in this! In fact, I am having the same problem! My chapter does Spring Rush...in Panhellenic, we are discussing rasing quota which would require us to spring rush and COB. There is a girl in my Women's Chorale who is, shall we say, a habiutaul liar. She went through formal recruitment and was not offered a bid. During recruitment, she claimed she was a DZ, ZTA and KD legacy. I can't speak for the other organizations, but we checked it out and she is not a legacy. No one in her family is registred as a Delta Zeta. Well, b/c she didn't get a bid, she has decided that she wants to spring rush. She did pledge a professional music fraternity, however. One of my roommates and sorority sister is also in this music fraternity and has confided in me that they might de-pledge her! Aparently, she lies. She said that she is fluent (sp) in spanish, but did not know how to say "I love you". She supposdly flew to New York to attend Sept. 11 memorial services and then (on the same day) flew home to take a test. She was in a car accident and lost her pledge pin but then found it 2 days later "in the floorboard of her totaled car". (she wasn't given a pledge pin in the first place).

She has now decided she wants to be a DZ...I am also at a loss. I do not think that she will represent us in a positve light...obvioulsy another organzation is having some problems with her, so why wouldn't we? Plus, we are still getting over having to de-pledge someone last year (LOTS OF DRAMA!!!!) So, I feel your pain!!! I think your chapter needs to do whats right for your chapter. You don't have to let "anyone" in....how is her GPA? Was she involved in high school? What year is she in college? All of these things can help you and your chapter make the best decision. If she doesn't meet to your standards (ie....your GPA requirement is a 2.5 and she has a 2.3) then explain to her why you cannot take her at this time.

I hope everything works out for you! I know how hard it can be!

Best wishes,
Blaire

If you absolutely know that someone will be a problem, don't feel bad about blocking their membership. Last year, my AOII daughter and I witnessed some very disturbing behavior on the part of a PNM and we both sent no-recs to the school she'd be at. (Let me insert here that I've only felt upset enough by a PNM's behavior to write 2 no-recs in 30 years.)

We debated whether to alert the women we knew in the other sororities but didn't. Looking back, I guess we should have because she managed to pledge a group and put them through hell and was finally depledged right before initiation.

Some people think that everyone deserves a chance. Why? If a PNM has proven herself to be psycho or a skank or whatever, why should a sorority be urged to suffer through behavior like that?

I think that Carnation makes a very good point.
After all, if you were an employer, you would not want an employee who was going to cause problems, and you would never hire someone without making sure that their references checked out first. Similarly, I don't think membership in a sorority is all that different...you want to make sure someone will be an asset to your organization, not a liability.

This is a tough one. It's easy to say you don't need to take anyone, but what heppens when they kow you are doing COB and they keep contacting you? Should you come out and say, we are not extending you a bid? SHoudl you jsut not respond to them? Should you eamil? Call? Should you make up something like, 'we have reached chapter total,' or 'panhel didn't clear your name in time' when it's not remotely true?

I actually might have to deal with something similar... help me out here!
-M

I guess I figure a random person is easy enough to blow off. But a very good friend, well hopefully you pick your friends carefully enough to not have this happen. (Although we can all be blindsided.) I was thinking of more someone you are well-acquainted with even if you're not close. Like you are in band together, or you work together, or live in the same dorm. Something exactly like what Blaire described.

I guess I don't advocate outright lying ("we're not doing COB" when she can see the posters). But even if she's evil I would feel bad if I thought I was encouraging her in any way when I knew I would block her membership. Formal rush is much easier, of course, you just cut her.

This has to be one of the most difficult situations in sorority life. We once rushed a girl who half the chapter loved, the other hated. We pledged her. BIG MISTAKE!!! By the time she depledged, she had caused so much havoc (and tried to get the rest of the pledge class to leave with her), it ripped us apart. In one pledge period, we went from being the second or third largest sorority on campus to about 20 actives. There is NO pnm who is worth that much stress and aggravation!! (and I get to say that because I liked her - originally!). When I think of the amount of trouble it took us to claw our way back up...!!!!

As for the rush problem, there comes a time for that hard combination of tact & honesty: "Rhoda Rushee, we'd like to see you rush ALL the houses before you decide you'd like to join us." usually gets the point across. If you're cornered - she knows there's a COB event - you may want to tell her that you've extended "your" invitation (as if you only get one), or that you won't be there yourself. It depends on what you feel comfortable saying.

And if that doesn't work, well, that's where your wicked alumnae come into play. They can gently say, "Rhoda, we've enjoyed your company, but I'm afraid that, for reasons I cannot reveal, I don't want to see you waiting for a bid from us." And if she asks why, simply continue to repeat, "for reasons I cannot reveal" - as many times as it takes.

I agree with what carnation & cutiepie 110%!

it's just so true!

And as for 'what to do'.. I am obviously not well versed with NPC rules for bidding and things like that, but do the organizations let the PNM now either way (whether or not they will get a bid)? I think maybe if the organization sent them notification, they won't keep contacting the Sisters who don't know what to do, it might take them out of that awkward position. But that's just a thought :)

Not to be mean, but it isn't YOUR choice if this girl gets a bid or not. If she is interested in your chapter, then bring her to an event. Let your sisters meet her and see her cookiness. Then, when it comes time to vote, and she doesn't get a bid, you can say "it's not my deicision to make, but the entire chapter".

I agree - with the caveat that, if you know something truly sinister about the pnm, you have an obligation to speak up.

I think that what everybody is saying makes sense.

I suppose that as an alumna, if someone approached me about alumnae initiation and I didn't think she'd be a good fit, I would tell her to contact headquarters -- which is no different from what I would tell *anyone* because that is the first step. If I *really* had reason to be concerned, I would probably contact the local alumnae chapter where she lives to give them, tactfully, the scoop. If it was *my* chapter she was interested in, I'm not really sure how I'd handle it. Although I'm usually a pretty blunt person, I'd have a really hard time telling someone that she wouldn't be a sister...

The problem is that you do not neccessarily see this until it is too late. I love my sorority so much, but sometimes i think that we have too short of a pledge period. We do not get a really good chance to get to know these girls that we are going to share secrets with and call our sisters. Last year we had a problem with a girl that came to all the pledge activities and stuff, and got initiated, but as soon as initiation was over we never saw her again! We also had another girl do this in the same pledge class. We had to sue both girls because of all the chapter operation money that they owed us. SO back to my original point, it is harder to see who is going to make a good sister even after 6 weeks of pledgeship. But I would have to say that if you have a problem with someone going through rush then No-rec her if that is what you feel is neccessary. We had a girl from my high school go through rush and I wanted to do this to her, luckily thought she ended up dropping out before I had to worry about this. So just be careful as to who you want as sisters. It can come back to haunt you later.

Posted by FuzzieAlum:
Yes, that's hard...I see that you're just trying to do the most ethical thing, and take the action that will hurt her the least. It would be awkward to in any way encourage a woman when you are certain that you, and your organization, will not be extending her a bid.
One way I handled this in college was to consistently change the subject whenever a certain woman who lived on my floor asked about ADPi, and since she was quite self-obsessed any question could be answered by bringing the subject back to her life. If she asked, "Do you guys have a lot of socials?" I would answer, "Sure. But you're the one always going out! Where did you meet those guys you were studying with? At a bar or a party?" Then she would happily begin a story about her own life.

With another woman (who had a criminal record, by the way) I would again, just change the subject every time my sorority was brought up. With her it was a bit more dificult, for one I was a bit scared of her (with good reason!:o ) and second she was just harder to distract. I think in my efforts to be very vague in my answers to all her questions (the woman: "When does ADPi have spring rush?" Me: "oh, you know, they just give me a calendar and tell me when to show up and I do. That's a pretty necklace!") I came off as quite the ditz, and she was a bit turned off. Fine with me, better to be seen as a ditz than become someone she got real angry with!

At any rate, best of luck with this situation...it's one awkward moments of mutually selective membership.

Am I normal? This thread is freaking me out.

Actully I'd just be like "uh..."

Optimist, sure you're normal...you're a normal guy!

There are just different cultural expectations for women. I have been in a situation where a psycho girl -- we're talking the kind of person who gives a whole room full of people the willies because she acts so crazy -- was very excited about joining my group. We had already cut her once. But when she came up to me all excited, I could never have said to her, "Listen, we just don't want you, and that's never going to change." That kind of bald truth would have, at best, made her run home sobbing and garnered me a community-wide reputation for being a coldhearted b!tch. At worst, we'd have been reading about her suicide in the campus paper the next day.

I don't think we should have taken her, but I do think we were right to try and soften the blow any way we could. We probably didn't do as good a job as we could have. She ended up flipping out over the second time she was cut, hitting her head on the wall in public, etc...very sad situation.

Ivy

On the heels of what Valkyrie said, I think it's important to manage the Potential New Member's expectations (whether they are a Collegiate PNM or a Prospective Alumna Initiate).

If you have a feeling deep deep down, that the person in question will not be receiving a bid, or approved as a candidate for initiation, I think it is important to emphasize to that person that their quest may not be successful.

That way, if they are turned down, their hopes will not be as high.
If they press to know the reason why, you can say that all chapter discussions are confidential.

And..if they end up hating you, well, unfortunately, that is something that could potentially happen and is unavoidable.
Such is life....sigh......

I gues it isn't my decision or anyone's decision in particular if someone gets a bid or not, but people can look quite normal in a half an hour chat. We have had numebrous girls who seemed perfectly fine in rush and then turned out to have 0 real social skills, or were really not interesed in being in a sorority. They way I see it, if you know a PNM, you should speak up on her behalf if warranted, or against her if necessary. I would want my sisters to do that for me!
-M

Yay I'm normal!!!

Anyway. :) The only person I wouldn't want in my chapter is a nazi, racist, etc person. Otherwise I say give them a chance maybe. They might be surprise you.

I was in just this situation in my very first rush from the other side. I think I've posted this story in the "Rushee from Hell" thread (or whatever it was called) from a while back.

A PNM came through rush (let's call her Susie) and really clicked with one of the sisters she talked to during first round. This girl felt Susie was a bit shy and quiet but otherwise would make a good sister, and encouraged us all to try to draw her out and rush her hard. OK so far.

During second round I was one of the "lucky" sisters who got to rush Susie. Within five minutes I realized she was not just shy, she was massively insecure, and she wanted the security of a guaranteed group of friends, and the popularity, especially with the guys, that she thought Greek letters on a shirt would bring her. She wanted the support of sisters, but didn't seem to want to be supportive in turn.

She was not invited to pref by any sorority.

A few weeks later, we held a COB rush, and every sister was asked to invite at least one PNM. The sister that Susie clicked with during first round, invited her. Susie showed up with the attitude that she was guaranteed a bid, "when do I get my first letters, when is initiation, etc" ... well, she was wrong.

I truly believe - especially having observed her over the next few years that we were in school together - that, had she pledged, she would have done considerably more harm than good.

If someone I wouldn't want as a sister approached me about a rec, or I learned she was going to a school where AEPhi has a chapter, I'd send off a no-rec. If someone I wouldn't want as a sister were to approach me about alum initiation, I have an easy out in that AEPhi doesn't do alum initiation... but if that changes (as I hope it will) I would simply tell them the proper procedure to follow, then alert the national office and local alum chapters to look out. But, it would take a LOT for me to take that sort of action... I trust my sisters to know who wouldn't make a good sister.

well, this happened to me when i was a collegiate. there was a girl that i was friendly with who really really really wanted to be in my chapter. she had rushed the same time that i did and was not given a bid. the following year, she went through formal rush again. during each voting session, whether or not she should be invited back was the hot topic. she ended up being invited to every party. everyone knew her....everyone had seen things she had done (ie. lie to people, make up stories, etc. etc. etc) but some people were still friends with her. we did end up cutting her and i did feel badly, even tho i was one of the sisters who felt the strongest that she shouldn't be a sister. she never asked me or my roommate what happened. i know that she was devastated. but at the same time, i know that it was what was best for the chapter. she did cry to us, but all we said was that we were sorry that things worked out that way. afterwards, she would wear pink on our letter days. and she would say how she was a phi mu at heart even if she didn't get to pledge with us. it was kind of psycho, but it did let sisters know that we made the right decision.

one of my friends is an advisor. she told those women to "trust your sister." if a sister feels so strongly that someone should not be a memeber, then go with them! i guess this is my best advice. hopefully, you won't need to explain yourself! if you do know the person, i would have someone else break the news.

Optimist Prime: Am I normal? This thread is freaking me out.

OP, I am with you.

I think this whole thread is pretty crappy.

When I rushed, I know that there were girls in the house who didn't want me there, and people who did. I had made some mistakes in my earlier college experience. However, once they offered me a bid, and I eventually decided to take it, there is no one in the house who could say I am a bad sister. My pledge term, I went to every single meeting, function, random get together they planned. And now, no one can say that I don't look out for my sisters. I love them to death.

You're right that you don't know what each person is like, that you don't get the time to know them well. But not everyone is going to mess up and give your group a kick in the ass.

You're doing one thing I hate the most of any personality trait. You are judging these girls by who you THINK they are, without trying to get to know them better. And in the Greek world, I would think that everyone would be about not perpetuating stereotypes, and getting along.

Or maybe it is just me.

Arrowgirl, we're mostly talking about girls whom we know to be disturbed. In the case I cited, I had seen the girl have irrational screaming fits, go off on several supervisors at different times, and finally, slap another employee in the face who was disagreeing mildly with her. There was no way I wanted her wearing the arrow--nor did my AOII daughter care to have her wearing her pin either. When the girl pledged, tore up her sorority, and was kicked out, our fears were justified.

I would never no-rec someone I just didn't like! But I'm confident I did the right thing with the one on her.

Does anyone else remember the stories that dzsaigirl and dzrose93 both told about the psycho rushees at their schools on the thread "Weird Rush Stories"? It would be horrible to have women like that in your sorority.

ok, i have to speak in the vaguest, vaguest terms, since i go to a school with a very competitive rush.

i have a friend in my class (i'm a sophomore) who rushed last year and was not invited back to pref night. she really, really, really wanted my house. this year she's rushing again. last year she had some problems. she was insecure and needy and put-on. but after pledgeship several friends talked with her about it, in a way that was not "you have problems" but "we are worried about you". this summer, she worked through a lot of the issues in various ways i can't go into here. she has really improved her behaviour and is a lot of fun now, going to parties, meeting lots of freshmen, being active on campus, etc. so i think that there is always room for reconsideration. some people do change, and could become benefits to a chapter.

also, some stereotypes just aren't justified. there have been some big issues on our campus this year. i'm not going to go into them here, but if you read our campus newspapers online, you could probably figure it out, if you're that nosy. there have been situations with certain sorority women telling a freshmen she's "balled" TO HER FACE. :rolleyes: that's completely unclassy and uncalled for. they're judging her on a overblown stereotype. (not that some reputations aren't justified; there are some girls i can't stand in the freshmen class, yet, i am polite to them, if not super-friendly and available. i certainly don't seek them out to say negative things!)

in other news, my school's panhellenic decided to grant two free
sophomores to each chapter this year in rush. there are 8 sophomores rushing, and 5 houses! hopefully, this will mean that upperclass rush will become more appealing on our campus (although we are not supposed to advertise the fact that it is being instituted). there are no juniors or seniors rushing, although i am sure this rule would apply to them too.

here's an effective way...

plege the shit out of her enough to get her to drop. probably wouldn't work, huh?

If it's hazing you're suggesting, that's a bad idea.
A chapter would most likely to definitely lose its charter for doing so.

I think what most people are advocating is "prevention" (i.e. do not extend a bid in the first place) rather "reaction" (i.e. saying "Oops, we extended a bid to a bad apple, how do we undo this?"). The question is, how do you let someone down easy? *That* is the crux of this thread.

oh well, that's the way it goes sometimes. it's not your fault she's an idiot.

nah, no point in letting them down easy, tell them the blunt truth and call it a day. what's the point of being nice and 2 faced to someone you really don't like? just let them know they're wack and move on. after a while they'll move on, too.

I don't agree with that at all, and here's why: If you are brutally honest with a girl who you KNOW is not going to be extended a bid because of a very valid reason, then you will most likely embarrass and offend her. If you offend her, then you increase the likelihood of her causing problems for your organization in the future.

Generally, sororities want girls to have a favorable impression of our organizations -- ALL girls, not just the ones that we invite into our sisterhood. If we are rude to someone, then you can bet that the girl isn't going to leave our house with anything good to say about our GLO in the future. However, if we are polite and treat her nicely while she is a visitor to our rush parties, then we give her no "ammunition" with which to hold a grudge. Sure, she may be very disappointed in not receiving a bid. But that disappointment is nothing compared to the resentment that she would harbor if she was told point blank that she wouldn't be invited to pledge because of her personality, reputation, etc.

Also, something else to consider is that the girl in question may not be a candidate for pledgeship, but that she may have a friend or classmate who is. You certainly don't want her to give anyone else a poor impression of your group because some of those other acquaintances of hers may be ideal candidates for your GLO.

but if you don't accept her, why would she say anything good about it anyway? i'm pretty sure she'll resent you if you've already rejected her. you're already going to burn a bridge, might as well be truthful to yourself as well as to her. if you don't like her, don't prance around like you'll be her friend after you reject her. that's bogus. why would she tell her friends to join if you didnt' even accept her? and you didn't tell her what you didn't like about her, then why would she change for better? she doesn't know her faults. its pointless to roll your eyes and just pretend there isn't a problem, that doesn't solve anything, and it's 2 faced for that matter.

Save the trouble and don't give her a bid to begin with. NOt everyone can be what they want.

I don't know about any of you all, but when we vote on PNMs, and someone has something not so nice to say about a PNM, you are supposed to trust your sisters that they are helping make the right decisions. If you have a strenuous objection to someone, you need to make your voice heard, and make sure you have credibility among your chapter members.

It's common knowledge that if someone has a bad experience somewhere, that they will usually mention that experience to an average of 6 people. Knowing that, I would MUCH rather let a girl down easy by being polite and showing some couth than to look her dead in the eye and say, "Your reputation as a slut precedes you, and we don't want that in our organization." Saying that not only embarrasses her, but it also would make you look like a cold-hearted b*tch. At least by being polite, you don't provide the rushee with any nasty stories to spread around about how rude and snobby XYZ sorority members are -- and you don't make the girl herself feel like a second-class citizen whenever she runs into one of your sisters on campus.

Being polite does not equate to being "two-faced." I don't know how your organization works, but in mine there is silent voting -- which means that if a girl isn't extended a bid, then it's a strong possibility that many of the chapter members won't know why. Only the nominating committee really knows for sure, and they are not allowed to talk about any negative votes. So, it would not be two-faced for a sister to say that she doesn't know the reason for a rushee not getting a bid, and it would not be "bogus" for her to continue being polite to that rushee in the future. Not all rushees have the qualities that a sorority is looking for in a new member, but that doesn't mean that the girls can't be friendly to each other outside the chapter.

In COB, it helps to have different types of events. There may be activities that you may invite a large group of women to, after posting notices around campus. It helps draw PNM and increases the numbers that you can consider. Then, there are invitation only parties. You should always tell the women that as the process continues that invitation only events occur.

If you make it clear to the PNM that COB is still a selection process and the chapter may not extend bids to everyone, it makes it much easier. I think it's appropriate to tell them the chapter makes the final decision, not you. Then you can still remain cordial with her if she doesn't receive a bid.

being polite is all fine and dandy, but if you don't tell her what's wrong with her, how is she going to fix it? are you just going to let her continue to be at fault? if i don't like someone, i'll be cordial, but i'm not going to pretend like i like them. who care's if someone see's you as a cold hearted b*tch? if that's what they think fine, it's whatever. people's opinion of me matters really doesn't matter. if they're really going to base their opinion of me on what i said to someone i don't like, cool. if she's going to harp about being rejected and not put it past her, then she really is a weak willed person. but then again, NPHC groups really don't have to worry about things you guys do.

If I know a girl who has a hard-core drug problem, do you really think that just because I tell her that's why she didn't get a bid, she's going to wake up and say, "Oh, I do? I guess I never noticed. Well, bye, I'm off to go check myself into rehab!"

Or even if I say, "Well, we just found you loud and obnoxious," is she going to say, "Guess I better pipe down!"? No, she's going to say, "I am who I am, and screw them if they don't want me." And I can't say I blame her!

Quite frankly, it's not my job to reform all the women on campus with serious issues. Even if I decided I wanted to I couldn't. That's the job of a counselor or a psychiatrist, not a sorority.

arrowgirl-
Yeah the thread is crappy, but I want you to know that I (and my chapter) *always* error on the side of giving someone a chance. However, we've had lots of problems with it! We have a hard time with attendance since we extend bids to girls who aren't gung-ho about a sorority (we think we can change their minds, but they go back to boyfriends and studying anyway). We've had bad publicity from the behavior of other pledges, and have had internal arguements and problems due to the rude behavior of another.

I am saying, because of these bad events, I advocate selection! Every GLO is based on selection, and I think it has a good purpose. Selection is not just picking out the good, but trying to identify people who would not be good memebrs of an org. Identifying people who would not be good fits is much harder than identifying people you think would really add soemthing to your group. Obviously you don't know people from a 30 min conversation, but I think it is a good idea to try and use sisters' knowledge of PNM's behavior outside the rush room as part of the process. That's what recs are about! And if you know someone is unstable, or a liar or habitually behaves in an inappropriate fashion, chances are they'll do that in your org too. Anway, you can say I'm a bitch for it, but if your in an org, you do it too.
-M

so being in a sorority means that you smile in someone's face you really don't like? then i guess all of those stereotypes of women in sororities are true? ok, cool with me. might as well be truthful with them instead, or just not tell them period.

And yet it's not two-faced to offer somebody a bid to your organization when you really don't want them there, and just spend the next semester beating them up in hopes that they quit? Because that seemed to be your suggestion a few posts up.

Being in a sorority means you try to live up to the ideals and principles your organization was founded upon. Most of the time this includes kindness to EVERYONE whether they are a member of your organization or not. Just because you don't want somebody in your sorority doesn't mean that you have any excuse to be mean.

nah, that was a joke. my thing is, if you really don't like a person, what's the point of letting them in and dealing with their crap? cut them and call it a day. they'll be pissed whether or not you told them nicely.