Random question about pin collectors
 

After reading some of the threads on GC about pin collecting, I did a few searches on e-bay for fraternity and sorority pins. I happen to think that all of the GLO's have beautiful pins, but what I noticed on e-bay is that pins from certain GLO's seem to sell for much more than others.

So my question is Why??? I've seen Kappa pins sell for $900 or $1000 or more (one in fact just sold today for something like $990), but I've seen equally beautiful pins from other fraternities and sororities sell for significantly less. So why are pins from some GLO's considered more collectable or "more valuable" than others??? I don't get it.

:confused:

I remember reading a thread here about Keepers of the Key, an organization started by a Kappa to save their pins from being sold to collectors. That is just one example of why that particular Kappa pin was so high.

Take economics...

Supply and demand. :)

Where's that dude, wwtp or whatever his name was?
He should know the answer.

The "value" is strictly in the individual collector's perception. And conversely how strong of a grass-roots network exists bidding against the collectors. For example, there is one collector who shall we say is a "man with very deep pockets" who will stop at nothing to be the highest bidder on badges of certain NPC organizations. If there weren't people like that out there competing against the GLO members who's hearts break everytime a non-member takes posession of what is nothing more to them than another piece of jewelry, then the prices would not go so high.

Yeah, every one of those collectors would love to slam me for being mushy about it too, but unless you're on this side, you just don't get it. And that's too bad.

I have an idea. WE should start a group/trust fund to raise money and save all our pins/badges/etc. from these people, and then hand over said pin to that particular orginisation. Who's with me?

"a CA in CA", seems you're new to this debate. We collectors ARE fraternity and sorority members, so we don't generally fault you for getting mushy over the subject. We get mushy about it too. No, mushy is no problem. We only fault people who get irrational, profane and violent!

As "sororitygirl2" said, it comes down to simple supply and demand: How common the pin is, how many people want it, and how far those people are willing to go to get it.

If it’s a Pi Phi or Alpha Phi pin, you’ve got a guy with really deep pockets to contend with. If it’s a Kappa key, you’re battling boatloads of people who’ve read in the NYTimes how Kappa keys can magically make you rich. If it’s a rare 1800s pin, you’ve got collectors who recognize this fact and will go to greater lengths to get something relatively unique.

Many a dealer has tried unsuccessfully to cash in on the current “fraternity and sorority pin ebay phenomenon”. They find a beautiful gold pin with beautiful little pearls on it and figure it’s their turn to get rich. So they buy it for $20, put it on ebay with a $50 price tag and wait for the gravy train to arrive. Trouble is, they’ve found a Beta Sigma Phi cooking sorority pin, and even though it’s a solid gold pin with real pearls, the value to the ebay community (collectors and members) is somewhere around $1.50 because there are roughly 48 gazillion of them out there. When I meet these people at antique shows, I suggest they simply scrap the pin, take their lumps and collect their $5. Some of them do. Some of them just keep parading around the same $2 pins wearing $50 price tags show after show after show.

The flipside is, smart collectors can often buy incredible pins from the 1800s for dirt cheap because they’re typically unjewelled and made from a small quantity of gold. So dealers assume they’re less valuable.

But dealers are getting smart, too. That’s why the price of Baird’s Manuals has skyrocketed. Demand for them suddenly shot up when dealers realized this book could help them buy and sell smarter. Supply and demand, once again.

But there does seem to be an ebay “baseline”, which I define as the average price you’d expect to see for a plain 10k gold version of most NIC/NPC initiates' badges from the 1940s to 1960s. That number has gradually increased from around $25 a few years ago to around $65 today. Obviously, bigger groups with more dead alumni generate more pins and tend to be toward the low end of the baseline range (SAE, Sigma Chi, ATO, DZ, Tri-Delt, etc.) and smaller groups with a smaller supply of badges tend to be more valuable (Delta Phi, Delta Psi, Kappa Alpha order).

In general terms, things that generate more demand and therefore higher prices are: gold content, gem content, condition, age, date, character (ie. social vs. professional vs. honorary), etc. That’s all fairly intuitive.

Hope that helps to answer the question.

And CutiePie2000, I'm hurt that you couldn't properly remember my name. After all we've been through together!

wptw

Use this example: Chi Omega...they have like 250,000 initiates, which is 250,000 pins. D Phi E has about 50,000 initiates, and 50,000 pins. Obviously there's more Chi Omega pins out there :)

not to continue or rekindle evil debates - but wptw's explanation was absolutely wonderful and very descriptive. kudos - cause some people really like to know this info.

there was an alpha gam badge on ebay awhile back that had our "honors of epsilon pi" attached. this honors meant a lot to the members and it's price jumped considerably - even though the seller thought it was an "iota chapter guard". ah well though.

marissa

I've heard a rumor that someone at our Executive Office keeps Alpha Delta Pi pins off of ebay, but I have no verification.

On the same line, a sister of mine was going to pawn her pin, so I bought it off of her instead. Does anyone see anything wrong about me wearing it?

Thanks for the kind words, Marissa. I agree this is an excellent question because it looks at the issue empirically, without being muddied by a lot of emotion or ethical debates. For once, this thread has NOT turned into an “evil debate”. But to quote Jack Palance: “Day ain’t over yet”.

I had more to say about this last night, but didn’t have the time to finish. So…

To say “the ‘value’ is STRICTLY in the individual collector’s perception”, while partially true, implies that there are no rules whatsoever governing the demand for pins other than the whims of individuals. Like I said, this is partly true because certain collectors obviously favor some characteristics over others. Some collect only badges from their group and those groups that merged with theirs. Some collect only 19th century badges. Some collect only jeweled badges. Some just want one of each NIC/NPC. Some won’t buy a badge unless it has sufficient engravings to trace its age and origin. Some prefer only badges from Yale, or Wesleyan. Despite these individual preferences, there is always an underlying set of common criteria that defines the rarity of a badge in general terms for members and collectors alike. And these criteria have much more power to steer the market price of a particular badge than the simple preferences of one collector.

Likewise, to say “the ‘value’ is strictly in… how strong of a grassroots network exists bidding against the collectors” also misses the mark. I would argue the opposite: That the grassroots networks are now (for the most part) sufficiently organized and disciplined as to keep the bidding wars from escalating unnecessarily. Where these networks do not exist or are not sufficiently organized, individual members (many who are new to ebay and the badge phenomenon) are the ones who start pumping up the price with tens of bids. We’ve all seen this. Now, the collectors are certainly putting in high bids to get valuable pins. But you’ll rarely see them involved in a bidding frenzy unless it’s one of those “holy grail” pins. Collectors generally know the market value of a given pin, they know what they’re willing to pay for it and they make their bid. If they win it, great. If they don’t, they know another one will come along eventually. The vast majority of collectors NEVER, as Hootie said, “finish off their collections” until they either die or go bankrupt. The sheer number of groups, compounded with the number of design variations in each individual group’s badge over so many years makes collecting a never-ending project. It’s an evolution, a labor of love, not a scavenger hunt list.

Hootie also mentioned perhaps some organizations were doing a better job of keeping pins off ebay, and that this may be impacting the supply side. This seems really unlikely to me. Keeping pins from reaching the open market is such a monumentally difficult task when you consider the numbers involved. Honeychile seems to think there is someone who is magically blocking all ADPi pins from reaching ebay. A quick search over at the ‘bay verifies this is nothing more than wishful thinking. I personally don’t think any group will ever have more than marginal success on this front. But even if we assume this strategy is effective, it will be many years before we start to see any impact. National HQs are broadcasting the message, but for the most part it is the undergrads and younger alumni who are taking it to heart, not the older members who tend to worry more about their nest egg, their grandchildren and their prostate. I would wager that of the greeks who will die in the next quarter century, a very tiny fraction have made (or will ever make) provisions for their badges in their wills. And in 25 years, the badges that start showing up in the estate sales will be the goldfilled stuff from the 1980s and later. So no one will really want them anyway!

In simplest terms: The badge collecting topic is hot right now, so there is an artificially high level of demand. But it will die down again eventually and the prices will settle back down to a more reasonable level.

In the meantime, be smart. Don’t talk to reporters. Don’t pay ridiculous asking prices for average badges. Don’t educate potential competitors (who are likely trolling this board) by starting threads that discuss what the “honors of Epsilon Pi” are and why they’re incredibly rare and valuable. If you really want a nice badge from your group, skip ebay and try hunting in your neighborhood, networking with local dealers or getting to know a collector who might find you one or trade you one. I personally pass up badges all the time because they’re too expensive for me (but still cheaper than ebay prices), and on occasion I have picked these badges up for an acquaintance that is willing to pay that asking price. “Keepers of the Key” was able to work out a trade with me to retrieve one of their gorgeous old badges. There is yet another reason to realize that collectors are not your enemy.

wptw

FWIT, I was told that our EO makes a concerted effort to keep ADPi pins off the market. If I insinuated that there was a magical way of doing so, please forgive me.

That being said, the one time I saw & bought a fraternity not my own, I sent it to their national office.

honeychile

Even if someone makes an effort to stop ADPi pins, there is one on there now.

Make that three! :eek:

I really hate to be nit-picky about such a well written post, but I had to correct you on one thing.... (well, two)

first... it's actually Beta Sigma Phi...

and second....it's not a cooking sorority, LOL! There IS a often-produced cookbook that I believe is used as a fundraiser, but that's all! Please see <a href="http://www.betasigmaphi.org/index.shtm">this website</a> to learn about this non-collegiate social sorority :)

Like I said, sorry to be snarky! I think you made some excellent points!

Quite correct Ginger. Sorry for the error. If you ask me 6 different times what the name of that group is, you'll get 6 different answers and one of them will be right. I seem to have a little greek dyslexia when it comes to this group. Must be the badge design!

Yes, I know it's not a cooking sorority. And in retrospect, I suppose knowingly referring to the group that way could be construed as disrespectful. But come on! How many members does this group have? And why do NONE of them keep their badges? I have seen literally hundreds of these pins over the years.

Finding exceptionally unique fraternity and sorority pins is like looking for a needle in a haystack. And these things are the friggin' haystack!

wptw

Chatting with my Tri-Sigma roommate, it came up that EVERY Sigma badge is $88 to the new member.

Phi Mu badges, which can come with a variety of jewels on the borders or corners, can vary SIGNIFIGANTLY in price. Mine was I think $36, but they go up to at least $300. And that's new members, not auctions.

honeychile - I don't see anything wrong with wearing your sister's pin.

When I was in college pre-ebay, one of my sisters bought a pin from a pawn shop and bought it for less than the international price. I always wondered who sold it.

Thanks for the response. My original is white gold, but the one I bought is yellow gold - and I always wear yellow gold now. I had promised my two nieces that they could have my pins if they pledged ADPi and of course, they both went to schools without sororities!

As for costs, I have a leaflet that was passed out at the latest formal rush, stating that the least one could pay for a pin is $65. That would be the yellow gold, plain, small version. My white gold pin has pearls with sapphire points, and the yellow gold one has pearls with ruby points. I hate to think what they would cost now!

:( I feel bad about all the pins. My friends are ADPis two of them any way. this sucks.

I think I'd be mad...
 

I'd be mad if my fraternity was using funds to buy pins from ebay. If people want to collect them, I personally don't care. This money can be used for MUCH more useful stuff.

On the original topic, I think it matters where some badges are made. I know a lot, if not all, Sig Chi badges are made by Tiffany's, and one of those with no jewels, i've seen go for more than a jeweled LCA badge.

One of the pins I just saw on Ebay is an Alpha Lambda Delta pin...this cracks me up! (For those of you who don't know, this is an academic honorary society for freshman who achieve over a 3.5)

According to their website, Beta Sigma Phi has 200,000 members internationally. Can't say why those members don't keep their badges.

FWIW.

Re: I think I'd be mad...
 

Tiffany's may have made Sigma Chi badges once (wptw?), but these days Masters of Design is their jeweler.

I wish I knew, too :( Part of me wonders if it's because the meaning of the letters is not secret. But I know that when I become a full member and receive my pin, both it and my Delta Omicron pin will be with me to my death (and returned to the appropriate sources after that!)

Re: I think I'd be mad...
 

My understanding is that there's a recycling arrangement with the jeweler. Let's face it, do you want just any yahoo who logs onto ebay wearing a Sigma Chi pin?

I was once told that Tri-Delta pins remain the property of Tri-Delta, and that when one dies, the pin is to be returned to their Executive Office. Is that urban legend?

honeychile

I don't care who wears a Sigma Chi pin Lamda Chi pins on the other hand... :D. But no, I don't think non members of any group should be wearing a badge of an org. I don't think most of these ebay buyers do anything with these pins besides buy them, sell them, and show them off, possibly donate them or whatever, but I doubt they go around wearing them. Of course, I realize that there HAS to be someone in the wide world of sports that does wear the badges they buy, whether they're a member or not.

My bad. At least you caught my drift, and seem to be a fan of Blazing Saddles....

>Part of me wonders if it's because the meaning of the letters is not secret.

No way...look at DU. They're not secret in general, but they're thriving, and there's nothing to indicate their members are any less devoted to the org than any other IFC members.

But you've got me thinking about secrecy in an interesting way...I think I'm going to start up a thread on that in the near future.

Ivy

Public initiation is wrong. It is a private matter becuase those bonds are very emotional. Having random there (including parents, etc) would take away from the experiece. My letters are secret. You might why they were chose from our coat of arms, but with out the rest of the ritual, you can't really know.

I don’t really think this is a problem. As Corbin said, the people buying these are either members, collectors who are putting them in cases, or other dealers trying to make a buck on the resale. I’m sure it has happened that a non-member wears a pin he won on ebay. But I think it’s quite rare. On the other hand, BGLOs seem to have more of a problem with “perps”, so for them this might be a bigger issue.

Also, badge jewelers don't recycle (other than buying bulk quantities of gold, which likely contain plenty of scrapped fraternity and sorority pins). Once they've sold a badge, they have no interest in seeing it again. They'd just as soon have the pin get shipped to Mars so they can sell a new one.

Urban legend, no.
Tri-Delt policy, yes.
Legally binding, no.
Wishful thinking, yes.
See countless earlier threads on this topic.

wptw

Corbin is right in that value sometimes depends heavily on the manufacturer. Tiffany&Co is obviously a premium jeweler, so their pins (whether GLO or not) are much sought after. I have seen a lot of pins from several manufacturers, and there is no question the Tiffany workmanship and quality is exceptional.

Like most groups, Sigma Chi has had quite a few “official” and semi-official jewelers over the years. I don’t believe Tiffany was ever an official jeweler for that group. I have seen hundreds of Sigma Chi badges on ebay and on the market over the years, and out of that large group I have only seen about 5 that were made by Tiffany. All of them were from the 1920s. So I assume that Tiffany simply did a little marketing work with the Sigma Chis and managed to get a few sales. But it doesn’t appear they were producing pins for Sigma Chi for very long. I have also seen Sigma Chi pins by Auld Patterson, and of course the majority are from Balfour (remember that LGBalfour was a Sigma Chi). Balfour Company sold the GLO pin division to Masters of Design in the early 1990s. Now the badges are mass-produced and of questionable quality.

When you think of Tiffany badges though, Chi Phi comes to mind. Every badge I’ve seen from this group prior to around 1920 is by Tiffany, and then Balfour started making them. My personal theory is that Tiffany lost the Chi Phi contract around 1920, and to offset this substantial loss of revenue they decided to go after other GLOs’ business. After a few years of only limited success, they gave it up altogether. I have not seen any Tiffany GLO pins newer than about 1925.

Tiffany also made badges for some of the old Yale and Wesleyan societies like Skull & Bones, Wolf’s Head, and possibly Theta Nu Epsilon. No surprise there. Those young men were from affluent families.

Remember that in the 1800s and early 1900s, it was pretty much up to the individual GLO chapter and the individual member to find a local jeweler to make the badge. That’s why you see such glorious variation in the handmade pins of the 1800s. Making a GLO badge at that time required either handworking each piece from a lump of gold or creating a uniform mold, both of which were incredibly labor intensive, expensive and time consuming. So it was only natural that local chapters and eventually entire GLOs began to consolidate their business with official jewelers in order to take the cost benefits of volume business. It appears there was heavy competition for the GLOs’ business among jewelers because every fraternity, sorority and college publication from that time period is full of jewelers’ advertisements.

Anyway, this is an interesting topic because I know some people wonder why there are so many subtle differences among a given GLO’s badges. This is easily explained when you consider that several different manufacturers likely built the badges over the years – each using a different mold, different techniques, different clasps, etc. These things also evolve over time. Jewelers often tailored the badge design to conform to current fashion trends of the time. Some badge “fads” include minis, large sizes, nugget styles, various gem arrangements (opals), sweetheart and mothers’ pins, white gold badges, retro (founders) style and dangles.

wptw

wow! Thanks for all that information. That was quite interesting.

I agree. I once saw a display of Alpha Delta Pi badges from different eras and it is wonderful to see the changes and variations...it's a fascinating piece of history.
On a personal chapter note, there were some sisters from my chapter whose wills' stipulated that their ADPi pin was to go back to the care of my chapter (as opposed to EO). We did take good care of them and they were always on display at all appropriate sorority events.

I find that I'm really not as offended as many here by the phenomenon of GLO pin collecting. I think some collectors are really expressing a love of what is a fascinating part of Americana.
It's too bad that some of these collectors cannot come to terms with the GLOs... what great knowledge and resources they have (well, some of them do). Wouldn't it be wonderful to see a GLO Pin exhibit at your local museum or campus center? I would go in a heartbeat!

That being said, I have no experience with trying to bid against a collector, or any other similar situation, so obviously I take everyone's word when they say that collectors can be terribly harsh and difficult to deal with.

I also know as a woman who has loved every aspect of her sorority experience, the shock at first typing "Alpha Delta Pi" into the ebay search engines and finding two or three pins for sale! At first I felt it certainly cheapened and damaged the image of ADPi...but now I don't get nearly as upset. In fact, I don't get upset at all. It happens to all secret societies and, in fact, I've been able to get a look at some really beautiful photos of vintage pins from a little ebay searching. I also agree with some others here (I think IvySpice made the point very eloquently on another thread here, but I cannot find it) that as Fraternal organizations we have many priorities already, such as service, leadership training, expansion...these all demand money and I do believe they all come before buying pins off of Ebay.

At any rate, thanks for your extremely informative posts, wptw.