Declining enrollment at CSU campuses
 

Definitely will have implications with Greek life recruitment.

https://www.ktvu.com/news/college-st...ity-system.amp

A lot of people don’t want the accumulated debt. Back in the day, most college degrees would get graduates a livable income. That’s not the way things are now. You get college debt your income can’t or struggles to pay back.

This is especially true in California. Universities have become expensive due to competing to be bigger, better and flashier than the next. Fancy fitness centers, gourmet dining halls, premium facilities. That cost is passed on to the students. Plus, the costs of education went up when the universities realized that the students would just get bigger and bigger government loans.

Also, in recent years, California has been pushing for community college attendance. The state even moved to have community colleges start offering 4-year bachelor's degrees. So, the state kinda shot itself in the foot with that. Now students realize they can stay home, for less tuition, and get a degree without going to the expensive universities.

For Sonoma State U, the Collegiate Panhellenic total was 129 in Fall 2018. The total from Fall 2023 is 46. Most chapters have a large portion of upperclassmen, as there are many transfer students at the school. I also have noticed the last couple years that the NPC groups are definitely "whiter" than in the past. I guess that the non-white women don't want to join the NPC chapters. (There are two local sororities, and I have no clue as to their size nor their populations.)

yep, the outlook is not good.

For Sonoma State U, the Collegiate Panhellenic total was 129 in Fall 2018. The total from Fall 2023 is 46. Most chapters have a large portion of upperclassmen, as there are many transfer students at the school. I also have noticed the last couple years that the NPC groups are definitely "whiter" than in the past. I guess that the non-white women don't want to join the NPC chapters. (There are two local sororities, and I have no clue as to their size nor their populations.)

yep, the outlook is not good.

Holy cow that's a steep drop. There was a discussion about this in the colonies thread with overall college enrollment dropping and how this would affect greek org numbers.

Well, let's be clear here - Sonoma State University has far more White students to start with.


SONOMA STATE STUDENT DEMOGRAPHICS:


https://i.ibb.co/B3DyCwC/Sonoma.png



CAL STATE DOMINGUEZ HILLS STUDENT DEMOGRAPHICS:


https://i.ibb.co/zbZHmTX/CSUDH.png



CAL STATE LONG BEACH STUDENT DEMOGRAPHICS:


https://i.ibb.co/Y02g8Qb/Long-Beach.png

One more. Those not familiar with San Jose State:

Asian

36.1%

Hispanic

28.2%

White

14.1%

Non-resident Alien

9.7%

Two or More Races

4.7%

Unknown

3.4%

Black

3.3%

Native Hawaiian or Other Pacific Islander

0.4%

American Indian or Alaskan Native

.01%

I do wonder if the rise in non white students will lead to more students joining cultural based organizations rather than the traditional NPC/IFC organizations.

I doubt it. I think students will gravitate to which organizations tie in more with their backgrounds. Plus, within the next 20 years or so, I don’t think any ethnic group will be the majority in this country. Two thirds of the world’s countries are already composed of a majority of people of color. Eventually, this country will be like the rest of the world, based on the way things are playing out. Because of that, I think students will base their glo choices on their upbringing or backgrounds.

I can speak to this right now as we’re living it in our house. My eldest graduated from SDSU in ‘17 and my middle from Chico State in ‘19 (she was Greek my eldest was not.) My youngest is an incoming junior for next fall and currently deciding which CSU to transfer to. She currently has four offers but waiting on her 1st choice, SDSU. She decided while still in high school that she didn’t want to graduate with the student loan depr he older sisters have, so was happy to enroll in our local CC. The other major factor: the first two years at CCs in CA are free. This wasn’t the case when my older two were her age. So my youngest will (hopefully) graduate with a lot less debt. Another factor I think with the lower enrollments, besides the cost, is that it’s much more difficult to get into many of the CSUs now. SDSU had a 4.1 gpa average for incoming freshman this fall. My eldest got in with a 3.7. She probably wouldn’t get in now with that, especially since they’re no longer taking standardized testing into account. She did well on her SATs which basically got her in. Though GPA doesn’t seem to be such a factor as many of my youngest’s friends had well over 4.0s and opted for CC first as well. Many of them will be transferring to UC schools too. I also think Covid played into it too, obviously. This all said, though I’d love my youngest go through recruitment as a junior, which I did and loved my sorority time, she says she has no interest. That ship has sailed. She just wants to focus on school and work and internships. I imagine a lot of kids her age are feeling the same way. Maybe she’ll change her mind after she gets on campus somewhere. It’s something the the CSUs and the Greek organizations in general might want to take into account for their recruiting strategies. The changing demographics of the campuses. Maybe gear more to older students.

Some of state system schools in PA had a merger. Here is an article that explains it better than I can:

https://www.highereddive.com/news/pe...into-2/603330/


The tuition hikes are pricing out the people these institutions were designed to sever, which is kind of underhanded when you think about it. They were created to give people the opportunity to earn a college education and to, hopefully, achieve upward mobility. They have faced funding cuts from the state, which don’t really leave them much of a choice in raising their tuition…but it’s still sad to see such a strong system struggling.

Anecdotal experience, I know, but my nephew was accepted at several state schools and not offered any meaningful scholarship money (despite really stellar grades and accomplishments). He applied (at the suggestion of a certain wise aunt, might I point out) to some private schools with great scholarship programs…and got almost a full ride to a wonderful private university. Kids aren’t being incentivized to go to state schools if the cost of attendance far outweighs private schools if scholarship opportunities are factored in. He also had smaller class sizes and way more opportunities for internships and meaningful college work because he stayed in the city.

At the school I attended, the Greek system is doing well (comparatively, for a school its size in the northeast). They went through a period of downturn maybe 15 years ago, but the system is as strong as it was when I was in school. However, it’s not one of the schools involved in the merger and doesn’t seem to have the same drop in attendance. My personal belief is this school made some strategic decisions to focus on programs that weren’t offered elsewhere, thus still bringing in the numbers despite a generational drop in college enrollment.

What is the current NPC wisdom regarding NPC chapters colonizing at Community Colleges? I recall a few NPC groups voting "yes" on statements that would allow consideration of colonies @CC's should the full NPC allow same.

I can anecdotally back up your anecdote! My cousin has 4 kids- 2 college grads, one in college (all non-Greek, ha ha) and one college-bound, and she said her middle two had the same experience with being offered a better financial deal from the private university they attended/are attending than the public ones they applied to.

My cousin (from a Penn State obsessed family, as you will find in this neck of the woods) turned down Penn State to go to Westminster (PA), as Westminster gave her practically a free ride and Penn State didn't give her squat.

Re the PA state schools, it hasn't only been the ridiculous building sprees resulting in ridiculous tuition increases, it's also been a diluting of the schools' individuality and unique offerings. It used to be that certain schools were the only ones to offer certain things or be known as good for them. Clarion - library science, Lock Haven - phys ed, IUP - criminology, etc etc. I always thought this was a state enforced thing, but apparently it was just a gentleman's agreement, and gentlemen don't exist anymore. I went to a Clarion alumni thing where they were crowing about the new criminology major, and was just like, why are we doing this? Meanwhile, our communications program, one of the best on the eastern seaboard, had been decimated beyond recognition.

And now Joshie apparently wants to merge all the state schools and community colleges together. 🤬🤬 I give up.

My cousin (from a Penn State obsessed family, as you will find in this neck of the woods) turned down Penn State to go to Westminster (PA), as Westminster gave her practically a free ride and Penn State didn't give her squat.

Re the PA state schools, it hasn't only been the ridiculous building sprees resulting in ridiculous tuition increases, it's also been a diluting of the schools' individuality and unique offerings. It used to be that certain schools were the only ones to offer certain things or be known as good for them. Clarion - library science, Lock Haven - phys ed, IUP - criminology, etc etc. I always thought this was a state enforced thing, but apparently it was just a gentleman's agreement, and gentlemen don't exist anymore. I went to a Clarion alumni thing where they were crowing about the new criminology major, and was just like, why are we doing this? Meanwhile, our communications program, one of the best on the eastern seaboard, had been decimated beyond recognition.

And now Joshie apparently wants to merge all the state schools and community colleges together. 🤬🤬 I give up.

Haha 33 I didn’t want to offend you there since we have a small rivalry lol.

But IMO, Slippery Rock took advantage of their strong programs and expanded them, as opposed to trying to add every conceivable major when there’s like five other colleges in a twenty mile radius. They drew out the community health bachelors program (I was in that and it was top notch twenty years ago) and added on a MPH. Most people are going to go on to get their MPH anyway in that field, so why not do all 6 years at the same school with the same (great) faculty?

They also really did amazing things with physical therapy. Even 25 years ago (damn it, I’m old) they were ahead of the game by offering a DPT. It drew in people from across the country then and still does- and out of state tuition dollars outrank in state. They also kind of teamed up athletic training as the undergrad program- which draws in plenty of people on its own and was a great program- and then people try to compete for a slot in the PT program.

They’ve even added a physicians assistant program, which is great!

I’m not saying they haven’t overdone it with the new amenities and fancy buildings…(or maybe I’m just mad that they ripped down my old haunts) but they also expanded programming simultaneously.

It was incredibly dumb and short sighted how a certain governor days past thought he was flexing by cutting school and university budgets. Everyone will save money! Meanwhile, the school districts passed it on in property taxes, and the universities struggled with enrollment. Great idea there :rolleyes:

Maybe I’m just in a really positive mood about education since yesterday I found out my student loan balance is officially $0.00 after trying to get PSLF for several years. Go college!!!!!

Congratulations Winter!

Thanks!

PS: MOHELA is evil.

An article on the unique position PA schools are in right now: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/...ts-and-funding

Excellent article, AST. Thanks. So much to think about…

“The entire nation is facing a projected demographic cliff in 2026, but Pennsylvania is on the bleeding edge, hemorrhaging residents faster than 46 other states, according to 2022 census data.“

Yeah, I might be on my way out myself (again)…

“Rural Pennsylvania is not thriving … we wanted to make sure that our students were going to college locally, meaning within 75 miles of home, and then the likelihood of them staying after they graduate goes up exponentially“

This sounds good in theory…but after living in many rural counties over the past twenty years…there are a limited amount of employment opportunities. If the county seat- the happening place- only has a population of 6,000…it’s not going to be able to keep a significant number of college graduates gainfully employed. (Being PA, I feel like I should add the caveat of “unless you want to work in the mining or corrections industries.”)

Other states are offering free tuition. Or, kids can go to OOS schools that are looking to draw in high achievers with large scholarships. My friend’s daughter was one such student; she basically got offered a free ride at USC (South Carolina) and now has an outstanding business degree with zero debt. (And, let’s face it, probably had an overall better experience socially, networking wise and of course…weather wise.)

You leave…then you start to network, build relationships, do internships in your new state. Why come back to a bunch of cornfields after all that?

The #1 thing I tell anyone who asks me for advice on picking a college is- you’re purchasing a product. You’re going to want to get the best bang for your buck…it’s an investment. Compare everything. Get the best deal and shop around. Don’t make an impulsive decision based on emotions (close to BF or home, knowing lots of people). This is your future. Put yourself out there.

If you're going to a big flagship school, you're gonna be just fine. Kids don't want to go to smaller schools anymore. And that's the projected demographic cliff. It's why NPC has implemented new total setting methods for schools with dropping open house pools. It's why schools are no longer waiting to expand - if the struggling chapter can't catch up, they're going to move ahead without them. Schools like Westminster (or in my neck of the woods, Albright) are offering students full rides just to get them to come there. Many students turn down full rides at those small schools for the big university experience.

As the PA state system, it's FUBAR at this point. PASSHE has lost all integrity because they admit anyone with a pulse, outside of West Chester. Most state schools have 90% acceptance rates. Guess what happens then? You lose any "prestige" you may have had 20 or 30 years ago. In 2010, there were over 84,000 applicants to PASSHE schools, and 61% were accepted. In 2022, there were 59,000 applicants to PASSHE schools and 90% were accepted.

The Allegheny Institute has a great article about PASSHE and comparisons to other PA schools - it ain't pretty.

Not to mention, they've become suitcase campuses in the extreme- most kids have to travel back home to work. The students don't have any time to get involved in extracurriculars and so they have little to zero loyalty or affection for the school - it's just a place to check off "degree."

I blame this all on the building sprees. I know some of the buildings needed replaced and updated but "if you build it they will come" only works in a movie.

This just in: campus total at SSU is only 39 this year. :eek: When AOII colonized in 2012 (I was the Network Specialist for the colony at the time), we initiated 80 collegians and one alumna. I want to say campus total was above 100 at the time.

I've been out of the loop for years so I was very shocked to see that Fall 2024 quota was just 7 and total is 39.

Wow!. That is a stunning decline in a short period of time.


CSU Long Beach will have its formal recruitment this weekend. It was supposed to have been last weekend, but there was a scheduling conflict.
As of last week, there were 400 PNMs signed up for formal recruitment which is high for this campus.

Holy cow what a drop! :eek:

This past year, I watched local high school grads in a greater-than-normal number choose to attend in-state higher-ed schools. I attribute this to the national student loan debacle, when for far too long no one had a clear idea how much they would get nor if they would get it.

However, one OOS school that DID get a high number of our local HS grads is University of South Carolina (seven new "Congrats HS Graduate!" USCarolina banners and flags flying on front porches around town).

A lot of people are foregoing college altogether. I know a few recent HS grads who did vo-tech in HS and graduated with excellent job offers. No debt, no 4 years of working and attending classes.

The question is about their long term earning potential. Some vo-tech programs can give you a lifelong career, albeit usually very physically demanding. Some produce "techs" who might make a decent amount of money early on but will never really get raises or promotions. It varies a lot. I see a lot of vocational programs for cyber security, for example. Those kids learn enough to do 1st level support but will never make it above that.

True. My nephew who just graduated, and the guy my oldest nephew dated all through college both picked good programs. My niece, OTOH…hers is some sort of computer animation and I have to wonder what’s out there for that particular program. I guess we will see since she just started it this year :)

(I thought she should do cosmetology, personally)

I just hate seeing people strapped with loans right out of the gate in life. People always frown on this, but you can always go back to school.

I taught part time for a vo-tech college for years. From that, I know that while the kids get good offers right out of school, they often work in bad conditions--like roofers, welders, and plumbers.

Y'all remember Blazercheer? She got a B.S. in a health field over 20 years ago but about 5 years ago, wanted to go into cybertech. She picked up an A.S. in the field at the same vo-tech school where I taught and was almost immediately making 6 figures. She said she wouldn't be at her level, however, without the B.S. in a totally unrelated field.

This. The school where I work/attend is experiencing problems related to this ( and other things).

Being a roofer, welder or plumber is most definitely not "working in bad conditions." :rolleyes: There's nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty and these are some of the FEW jobs that are recession and AI proof.

I agree with you about there being nothing wrong with getting your hands dirty, but being a roofer is dangerous (working from heights and usually in terrible heat, at least here in the south). But for any skilled trade, people can make bank, and we need those people. Trade work can’t be outsourced overseas or done remotely. I would never discourage any young person with an interest in a trade from pursuing it. My nephew is a genius, and he has been doing carpentry work while he has been in high school. He is seriously considering pursuing carpentry instead of going to college. We’ve all been kind of shocked because of how well he does academically, but if it’s going to make him happy and not saddle him with student loan debt…go for it.

The guy my nephew dated throughout college is super smart as well. He just didn’t want to go to college right after HS. Maybe he will go someday? Idk.

Where I come from, everyone has done blue collar labor jobs all their lives. It just is normalized there. My dad was working for his union, setting up and breaking down shows at the Convention center up until he was in his 70s.
He was still working on cars, too. (Somehow, all of his mechanical genes missed me though :( )

He wanted us to go to college because he lost a lot in life when the industries started going overseas in the 80s. I think he saw it as bringing more job security.

Idk if it was this thread, but I had the weirdest dream I was back at community college last night lol…CC is doing good in this part of the state. Although not every county has one, many places are adding branches so that people can at least get some coursework locally. Here is a project completed by the late Rep Jeff Pyle (a great educator and human)

https://triblive.com/local/valley-ne...-in-ford-city/

The times sure have changed.

It used to be that you'd rack up some student loan debt, graduate, get a good paying job, and get out of debt relatively quickly, leaving you free and clear for homeownership and children if you want. Now, student loan debt is so crushing that it'll take folx forever to pay it off - and you can't get out of student loans by declaring bankruptcy. No wonder people are going the vo-tech route, or getting an associate's degree at their local community college and then transferring to a 4-year college as a junior, or getting their associate's degree and stopping there and getting a job.

This will be terrible for NPC sororities, as we cannot operate chapters at community colleges. Look at that drop at SSU!

My father was able to get through a Cornell loan debt in the early 90's (they still struggled but it seems like nothing compared to now.) and when he did the peace corps then he was able to get some deferment in his payments. We recently did converting what he paid back in the 80's to now and it was shocking. I luckily never needed to take a loan (I attended private unis) and I heard so many of my peers have fear in their loan situations. It has hampered a lot of people from taking usual steps in becoming middle class with buying a house/car and all that.

I did say in the NPC #s threads that yes many small unis (and chapters) will close over the comings years with people reevaluating the cost of a college degree and also realizing they can do 2 years at a CC and transfer to a state college for a low-ish rate. But that will bump up enrollment in some of those other small, liberal arts schools. At the end of the day, not everyone wants the big school environment, and many of these schools are working together to bring students in to complete their degrees without interruption and they will attempt to match whatever loan/scholarship program they had at their previous school. My own school built themselves as a transfer friendly place, and I was even able to complete my degree transferring in as a senior on time. But that's the current market.