The Future of Greek Life
 

In another thread, this comment was made:

There has been a lot of upheaval surrounding Greek life in recent years. There is more activism both on and off college campuses in regard to a wide range of issues, and social media is clearly an unstoppable force, and all of this has resulted in questions aimed at Greek life, from both members and non-members: what are we doing to fix known issues, and is our entire system sustainable in the long term?

To list just a few of these issues that our organizations have had to address, perhaps now more than ever before:

Diversity & Inclusion (POC, transgender, non-binary, etc.)
Exclusivity
Expense
Hazing
Binge drinking
Sexual assault
etc.

What do you think is the biggest threat to the Greek system, and why? Can it be changed? Why or why not? SHOULD anything be changed? Who should be making the changes (the larger blanket organizations, individual fraternities and/or sororities, individual chapters)? What can we all do better? Do you feel there are forces of change being pushed on us from inside our organizations or from the outside, or both? Does it make sense to "ignore the haters" in order to survive or make meaningful changes to adjust to the times?

What say you, members of Greekchat?

Here are just a handful of articles for thought, but the conversation can go anywhere.

How Greek life is destroying itself
https://www.newsrecord.org/opinion/o...caf3aacab.html

Greek life is at a crossroads on some campuses, with fraternity and sorority membership decreasing
https://www.inquirer.com/education/f...-20191024.html

The War on Frats
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/01/s...at-racism.html

Tragedies Highlight Dark Side of Greek Life
https://www.voanews.com/a/student-un...e/6204177.html

NEU SpeakOut highlights a culture of sexual assault within Greek life
https://huntnewsnu.com/66138/campus/...in-greek-life/

Guest Editorial: How Abolish Greek Life gets it wrong
https://vanderbilthustler.com/33363/...gets-it-wrong/

I feel like this is a repeat of the 70s.

I feel like the issues of hazing, binge drinking, sexual assault, and others are just as prevalent in other groups on any campus whether it's an academic club, intermural or club sport, performance group or any shared interest club.

Media like many of the movies depicting Greek life from the 70's to the mid 00's and because of the entertainment and comedy of said films, it further cemented that reputation for those outside of the system. Coupled with how bad news and rumors spread way faster than good news, especially in the social media age, anytime a GLO is accused of something terrible, it adds to an already burning fire of contempt.

The inclusion and diversity aspects are interesting as that topic has been at the forefront of social media for the last few years. I haven't been up to date with if GLOs are redefining their membership policies to include those people as potential members if they so desire. Personally, I have not had any issues with consideration of any PNMs specific to race or ethnic origin, but I know that it can still be an issue places.

The expenses associated with Greek Life vary so much it's hard to say if it is an issue everywhere. One chapter may set their dues at $100 a semester, another at $1,000. I do believe that a chapter should try to keep dues as low as possible, but I also understand that the realities of finances can be difficult when you consider housing costs, fees paid to the HQ, insurance, etc.

Perhaps the answer of what the biggest threat to Greek Life is more simple? If the reasons people joined a GLO were for the prestige, connections, and social opportunities, et al. and they could get those same benefits elsewhere, why would they join? Social media has changed networking forever, from a professional and leisure standpoint. What prestige is there to behold with a new student when all they see is the faults of specific chapters amplified on the internet? When their classmates post about ending Greek Life as a whole instead of specific people/chapters/organizations?

One specific threat to fraternities is the drop in male applicants enrolling in colleges. No matter the number of fraternities, how well they present themselves and the benefits they can offer, a smaller male student body will eventually mean a shrinking Greek Life population.

Is this what you feel or what you know? Some studies argue otherwise.

https://www.dailyemerald.com/news/uo...a7660b6e9.html

https://www.addictioncenter.com/coll...se-greek-life/

Regardless, we tend to hold ourselves to a higher standard. At least, we say we're better than the rest of the student population; better grades, higher graduation rates, a better overall college experience. But then we're OK because we're "equal" to the rest of campus in terms of hazing, binge drinking, and sexual assault?

But is this the reason we WANT people joining? Is this what we advertise?

Unless you had a different point entirely, in which case I missed it.

Interesting that you mentioned this. I read this article a couple weeks ago, discussing how the tables have turned regarding the men vs. women enrollment in college.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...cation/620066/

I missed this comment previously. Care to expand? I admittedly know very little of overall Greek life history going that far back.

Chapters closing left and right, people saying Greek life was over and outdated.

This was at the height of Vietnam/civil rights protests, and greek life was seen in similar light as it is now. Why if you look through the irishpipe's thread, you'll notice a lot of chapters shut in the 60's/70's.

The 70s was because of a general feeling of anti-establishment and Greek Life was definitely establishment. I think the issues facing Greek life today are very very different than they were then.

It certainly feels like Greeks are totally out of control. I think we used to do a better job of policing ourselves, but it's possible there were just as many issues but we didn't know about them. I did volunteer for Alpha Gam for 30 years on the collegiate side and whether it just got reported more or whether it happened more, hazing, sexual assaults, and trips to the hospital for extreme alcohol intoxication DIRECTLY related to their greek membership were increasing.

I also agree with the comments about us claiming to be living to a higher standard. Our purposes/standards/creeds, etc. and the reality of greek life are pretty far apart from each other if you ask me.

I find it pretty hard to rationalize why organizations with intangible selective membership criteria and practices that are not open to public inspection need university recognition.

I love Greek life. Adore it. I find myself always asking professionals whether they pledged in college (or later).

But what many organizations seem to be seem to be only tangentially related to the education of values or service to the community.

I am totally fine with anybody joining anything they want off-campus.

I think organizations seeking recognition, or (as my college called it) access to benefits, it should prioritize significant community service, prioritize pathways to academic excellence, be committed to anti-racism, and in the case of men's organizations, demonstrate a commitment to ending rape.

Last year during the pandemic, I and a few selected alumni members who were part of the Diversity and Inclusion committee for the fraternity's national alumni advisory council had a discussion about what is needed to created a more healthy diverse atmosphere among the undergraduate chapters based on what's going on especially during the BLM movement. Along with a couple of undergrad members who were invited also to speak on their experience, a lot of good ideas came across which lead to create the position of the Diversity and Inclusion Chair for both the active chapters and on the regional level for the alumni. I'm currently the D & I chair for region 4. I apply for it because I want to make a difference in helping to make a more welcoming experience for the fraternity.

I feel that everyone who cares should be able to step up and work to curtail the problems. it may take a while but It can be done.

As a whole, I think Greek orgs may be stumbling, but I think they'll regain their footing. I think we need to be diverse and inclusive, but at the same time, not cave or cower to these external forces asking for changes against our best interests or demanding that we disband. Our groups need to be more vocal about our right to exist, our years of tradition, the services we provide, etc. We need to be much more vocal.

We need to do a much better job holding members accountable, owning our bad actions and cooperating with schools in ensuring the bad choices of members are not the bad choices of our organizations, i.e., let's collectively avoid responding to RM infractions as the UTenn Pikes responded to that whole butt chugging incident--years ago, but what a literal shitshow. We should look at that incident as a case study of exactly how not to respond to an incident.

We have to walk the tightrope of not giving up what we are while remaining relevant.

Okay, I want someone to tell me exactly what they mean by diversity and inclusiveness. I know racial diversity, but what else? And I feel like some people think it means we should pledge anyone who wanders up even if they're seriously disturbed or a total social media risk or they have a 1.2 GPA.

True enough. Greek-letter membership is earned. And as Kevin said, we have a right to exist.

I know I'm preaching to the choir but there are, and have been for years, black members in NPC sororities. Same for Latina. Same for many other nationalities and races.

What are our greek-letter alumni, who are not white, currently communicating to those non-members who would have our organizations dissolve? One knows their voices are of especial interest in this debate, but does anyone inquire of their thoughts and opinions?

I think you can judge whether someone has the character befitting a member who would be an asset of the organization without taking race or sex into account. I think the gender question is a seriously thorny issue we're not going to work out on a forum anytime soon, but I'm comfortable initiating anyone into my organization who has the character befitting a member and who would be an asset who identifies as male. Of course, that's easy for me because our chapter plant doesn't have communal bathrooms, so I'm not sure the issue would be so simple for other groups.

YMMV from school to school in that regard--and I think that's a problem since those kinds of chapters are typically the most visible.

I don't think our Greek letter alumni who are not white are under any obligation to be our POC ambassadors to these non-members. I'm not sure whether you are suggesting that. What I would suggest is that we stop taking these idiots so seriously. Stop treating them as threats. Respond to them and point out how ridiculous they are in any publications available. We don't have to apologize for being what we are unless there are issues we legitimately should be apologizing for, i.e., covering up sexual assaults/rapes, hazing, etc.--and if we have those issues, we should be doing what we can to clean those situations up, i.e., cooperating with authorities in investigations and ensuring that the stupid/heinous choices of individual members don't turn into stupid/heinous choices of the organization because that's when these folks asking for our dissolution might start to have a good point.

This.

I believe some organizations are catering to a vocal minority who joined an organization for one reason and then want to change it because it's not what they were actually looking for.

MANY of the recalcitrant alumnae of NPC sororities say something like "Yeah, when the D9 includes whites ....". Makes me cringe. But we look at their purpose. Those organizations were formed with the intent of furthering non-white acceptance and networking. In other words, they have a racial component that the IFC and the NPC has only in tradition, not in purpose. We can change tradition without changing the purpose of the organization.

When an organization publicizes its desire to change its focus based on the calls from collegians to change tradition, they'll fail. When they change tradition to inclusivity - of all *viewpoints*, not all races, they'll find their footing again.

IMO, the "institution" of Greek Life isn't really necessary anymore. All of the perks that (general) we promote are no longer exclusive to Greek Life (not that they were before, but there was the perception). And rather than update for the times, there appears to be a ton of resistance.

I often read a lot of "well why do we have to do this and that change" for things that (to me) don't seem to be huge deals. To me, the core of my Greek experience was the *living* of the experience, not the minutia. So if (for example) my organization stopped a legacy requirement, to me that's not a big deal because my experience isn't tied to that. I suspect many outsiders or newbies see "the establishment" as being immovable and it's a turn off.

I liken it to the music industry shift. For a while, the only way to "make it" was to go through a label and that whole process. Now you can forge your own path independently or within small collectives without the backing of a huge label.

I think many newer members are aware of this and if GLOs want to appeal to those people, they'll need to meet them where they're at.

But is what happened then an apples and apples comparison to present day and what's occurring now? I wouldn't know, as this statement is very vague, but as others have pointed out, probably not.

All of this. If that's what we preach, we should be committed to it when associated with a college or university.

I also think back to the thread regarding the NPC creating a community college task force, and there were very mixed reactions to the thought of gaining members at those institutions. I've always been of the mindset: why not? Why not create chapters that can function within parameters outside of a four-year institution? We do so with our alumni chapters, so what's stopping us? And perhaps there's another alternative where those members could be part of an alumni/citywide chapter, merging both alumni and non-traditional college students?

But I digress.

We can't do what you suggest (in bold) in your first paragraph - and expect to stay relevant - if we don't do what you suggest in your second paragraph. We can scream from the rooftops all we want, but if we're not living those same values we preach, no one will believe what we're saying. As the old saying goes, actions speak louder than words.

Race, homosexuality, identity, disability, etc. There are so many directions to go with this.

And I have yet to see or hear anyone arguing we should accept members who have severe mental issues that would put members' health in jeopardy, nor have I seen a push for us to accept students with a GPA so low that even the university would kick them out of the school entirely. Are there articles about this? Social media posts? Widespread protests? If so, I missed them entirely.

Also, what about "diversity" by looks/attractiveness? This alone makes people think that the system, and especially certain chapters, are judging potential members on looks alone. It seems this is particularly emphasized in sororities. Heck, one only needs to look as far as other recent threads on Greekchat discussing one NPC sorority in particular to know that this is still a huge issue that can play a major part in membership selection.

*snaps*

Again, *snaps*. As you say, people are finding other ways in college to obtain the same benefits we advertise. And if they can do that with a - real or perceived - absence of sexual assault, discrimination, hazing, unfair judgment by their peers, etc., then they may just steer clear of Greek life altogether and tell others to do the same.

[QUOTE=ASTalumna06;2487570]
and I also think back to the thread regarding the NPC creating a community college task force, and there were very mixed reactions to the thought of gaining members at those institutions. I've always been of the mindset: why not? Why not create chapters that can function within parameters outside of a four-year institution? We do so with our alumni chapters, so what's stopping us? And perhaps there's another alternative where those members could be part of an alumni/citywide chapter, merging both alumni and non-traditional college students?

--I don't know what it's like where you live but frequently the kids here who go to community/tech colleges as freshmen do not have the high school grades to get into 4 year schools. There are, of course, exceptions but I don't see the schools I know well having enough of them to form a viable chapter.--




Race, homosexuality, identity, disability, etc. There are so many directions to go with this.

And I have yet to see or hear anyone arguing we should accept members who have severe mental issues that would put members' health in jeopardy, nor have I seen a push for us to accept students with a GPA so low that even the university would kick them out of the school entirely. Are there articles about this? Social media posts? Widespread protests? If so, I missed them entirely.

- I have actually seen pushes to accept everyone who wants to sign up. One of these happened at a college where I taught; one year it was required that everyone get a bid. Our most bizarre students came out of the woodwork and pledged and it was hell for quite some time. The dean who thought up that crap suddenly left the school midyear. -


Also, what about "diversity" by looks/attractiveness? This alone makes people think that the system, and especially certain chapters, are judging potential members on looks alone. It seems this is particularly emphasized in sororities. Heck, one only needs to look as far as other recent threads on Greekchat discussing one NPC sorority in particular to know that this is still a huge issue that can play a major part in membership selection.

--Not sure where you would start on this one. "Hey, this girl is a real troll, let's pledge her and those 2 trolls from Hickstown to make our "unattractiveness" quota."

--"OK, would pledging those 2 600-lb. girls and the one with 8 eyes satisfy those outsiders who are demanding a looks quota?"

--"Where's that scale where we rate girls on their attractiveness? We need to decide if those 3 girls we discussed are ugly enough to put on the bid list and satisfy outsiders."--/QUOTE]

If, in fact, today's students have this mindset, then they should start an independent greek organization (local); not go through recruitment, join an established chapter, and then decide they don't like the rules they have pledged to abide, and try to shut the chapter down. Granted, I do not follow the music industry closely, but I haven't heard of disillusioned artists trying to shut down large and established record companies because the artists might not have been chosen to work for them, because the company only chooses people with musical talent, and/or who have good looks.

If they forge their own path independently in Greek life, they can start their own chapter, they can set their own standards, make their own rules, and pledge whomever they please-similar to the independent record companies/small collectives.

My issue is with students trying to shut down organizations they are not members of, because they don't like the concept of the org, as well as members of organizations who have now decided they no longer want to be a member, and they do not want anyone else to be a member. These tactics remind me of brownshirt strategies. Bullying at its highest level.

There are several national/international organizations with whom I have philosophical differences, but I would not try to shut them down. I merely do not support them. If all the organizations anyone didn't like were shut down, there would be no organizations remaining.

Preach!!! :)

Then keep the same GPA requirement. I also don't see why expansions to these schools can't be selective - just like they are with four-year institutions currently.

So one school one year attempted this, it failed, and the dean left. ::shrugs:: This seems very anecdotal and doesn't point to widespread changes being pushed.

I'm not arguing to put policies in place surrounding this, per say, and certainly not the extreme and unrealistic ones you've suggested. I was speaking of perceptions and why some are turned off by Greek life. And when our national orgs are sending down directives to only take the "pretty girls", that doesn't help. All it takes is one, and people think the whole system operates that way.

I won't speak for knight_shadow, but I don't think his comments were referring to the people trying to shut down these chapters. You even said so in the second half of the paragraph above - that would be comparing apples and oranges since artists aren't trying to shut down record companies.

That's my point exactly. These artists found a solution that enabled them to do what they wanted, without shutting down the existing record companies or abolishing the record business altogether. They acted like adults, worked around the problem and moved on.

If the artists make great music independently, people will buy it. If these disgruntled members or outsiders make a viable and better alternative to current Greek life, people will join, and our orgs will eventually die out due to attrition. But I don't see any alternatives being offered when members want to shut down their chapters.They are not resigning their memberships and starting a new, better, independent "personhood"; they are demanding that their chapter be closed, forever and a day, and that is what I have a problem with.

AST. that was the only instance I cited. I know of several more where schools got all touchy-feely-kumbaya-let's pledge everyone and it all went down the toilet. For instance, I believe I have referenced another one from Birmingham Southern several times but this time I only spoke of the one that a college I taught at because I lived that one.

That's quite a leap to go from "maybe we should look beyond having Stepford Chapters" and "we need a fat and ugly quota."

Perhaps I missed something (if there's a thread somewhere, happy to go look at it) but are outsiders calling the shots?

My perception from what I've seen posted here is less "let's infiltrate Greek Life in order to destroy it" and more "Yay I'm happy to join - wait a minute, now that I'm in, this isn't what I thought it would be and I/HQ doesn't want us to change it."

If (general) you are selling something ("we value our diverse and inclusive brotherhood!") that doesn't seem to turn out to be accurate ("97% of us look like the football team from Country Club High School!"), it makes sense that people would have some buyers remorse.

And we almost always tell people to be the change they want to see. If those requests go unanswered, then why would the outgoing members care about the fallout as they exit?

You're right - I was speaking about Greek Life in general.

But still - if this is becoming a trend (trying to shut down a chapter on your way out), it's also telling that "grow up, spoiled brats" is what is seemingly acceptable, rather than "I wonder why this is happening at an increased rate. Let's do a retrospective."

Just my $0.02

This is true!

But about quotas: some chapters have come under pressure lately in the DEI area. Quotas were major failures in the 70s and they will be if instituted now. What happened to freedom of association? I may not agree with some chapters' member choices but they can choose who they want.

And yes, knight shadow, various groups are trying to call the shots for NPC sororities.

The biggest threat to the greek system is ignorance as to what it stands for and what it does. Positive greek life occurs above and beyond the real or alleged crimes against humanity by greeks that people read about.

Kevin previously posted communications points we in greek life need to achieve to foster better understandings of our good works among the uninitiated throng.

Important items to remember, for both greeks and those who wish greeks gone, are that listening to learn works both ways and that speaking is kinder when touched with honey not vinegar.

True, they *can* choose who they want to associate with, but if the association was sustainable, there wouldn't be a ton of "what's happening to Greek Life!?" articles ;) If folks want to dig their heels in the ground and be immovable, then I'm not sure they have much room to complain about shrinking membership.

Also, I had not seen anything about outsiders trying to call the shots; thanks for the info. Most of what I'd seen on here was members who had resigned. For the outsiders - I suspect the rebuttals to those people would be the same as the "OMG WHY DO YOU PAY FOR FRIENDS!?" people of years past, so they may be a non-factor.

Let's just say the pay for friends thing is still being thrown around now. During the time Alabama rush was going viral online, I saw countless comments in that vein.

Not to mention, several organizations exist such as mine (GSS) that don’t do MS. Why join one that does, and then ten months later you all of a sudden have a big problem with it? Don’t expect the whole organization to change. I researched before I joined and I joined the one that I felt best aligned with my values.

Yes. DEI consultants are making recommendations and policies are being changed outside of the GLO’s voting body (aka convention). Even if it is something that technically doesn’t require a membership wide vote, to present the membership with a fait accompli really isn’t the best way to get them to buy into whatever it is. The biggest example is the scuttling of legacy policies.

And incidentally, this has been going on in a lot of different arenas for a long time (like pledge programs written by an outside source).

As far as creating a local Greek group, I’d be all for that, if it wasn’t for the fact that many colleges refuse to recognize them and compel them to seek national affiliation.

It also depends how far outside the “traditional” spectrum you want to be. If you want to start a completely alcohol free group, where no events include alcohol and all the members have taken a pledge not to drink ever, that’s one thing. But if you’re creating a group that has a less full event calendar to accommodate commuter students, that might not hold up.

As far as groups that don’t do membership selection, yes, everyone can pursue membership. Everyone is not always successful in that pursuit. That is my experience in such a group, anyway.

In my sorority, if you wanted to be a sister, we took you on as a pledge. Pledges had to do their pledge assignments and pass quizzes- the pledge period was work, and not everyone was up for it. Nowadays things like pledge interviews would be considered hazing like, but nothing we did posed a true mental or physical risk to us, and we enjoyed the pledge process. It was rare for us to have pledges drop out, and usually only happened because of extenuating circumstances in that person’s life.

I’ve heard not all GSS chapters work this way, but it’s pretty strongly written into the rules of the organization that this is how it should work.

It just annoys me that these college students nowadays are acting like they’ve come up with some great new “woke” idea that there should be organizations that anyone can join- when my organization has existed for almost 70 years.

One of the things that bothers me about all of this is that...in some of the accounts I’ve read from women who have disaffiliated...they joined and were quite happy in the organization for many months or even years. It’s not until they experience their own “ding” that they suddenly decide the whole thing is not for them (often involving standards, or no longer being a part of the “in” crowd). Then- and only then- all of a sudden, they are the most woke people in the planet and have a problem with THE WHOLE SYSTEM and it needs to GO AWAY ASAP.

Just seems sort of hypocritical, that’s all. It’s like they don’t really care about being woke, or anything D&I and they are jumping on a bandwagon to throw dirt at organizations they have problems with for other reasons.

It’s like, the whole thing is okay, as long as it’s benefitting then. When it stops, it’s evil and needs to be destroyed.

*winter*, that was fantastic!

Piling onto the *winter* bandwagon!

Ahh. This is different than what I thought this thread was referencing. I thought it was "GDI tries to remove ABC Fraternity of campus" rather than "XYZ HQ hires consultant to make decisions without consulting entire organization." That may be where my wires were crossing.

This is causing a lot of NPC groups to lose a buttload of money from disgruntled alums.