Recs being dropped for PNMs?
 

Has anyone heard of this? A friend who is a Phi Mu said they're no longer going to require recs for PNMs. It would seem to follow how orgs have changed the legacy policy. Phi Mu has language already on their website explaining this.

Anyone heard of this for other orgs?

Same for us. IHQ doesn't even want chapters to take any recs. The morons who think this will make us more diverse apparently don't realize that having no way to find out about girls with recs, the actives will just choose girls they know. Who wants to pledge someone who looks good on paper, only to find out what a psycho they are after Bid Day? (See the "Weird Rush Stories" thread for examples of this.)

The big chapters have no time to only start learning about PNMs the first day of recruitment. Say they have to cut 800 out of 1000 women the first night--do you really think they won't be texting their friends and alums about girls they don't know? Days ahead of time?

Several other teachers and I have spent years trying to get small-town girls noticed at Big U recruitments by sending fabulous recs. They now only have a very small chance of breaking into the chapters that don't use recs.

I have 4 fabulous students who are rushing this year at Georgia. Years ago, I would have said I would be proud to put my pin on them. Now I hope they choose a group that isn't desperately virtue signaling.

Carnation, I was just thinking the same thing. This could actually make it harder for PNMs that don't have any connections.

It seems to me that this would make recruitment MORE superficial. What else do you have to go on other than appearance and a five minute conversation? And that always turns out for the best. My eyes feel like they are going to roll out of my head now.

For this very reason I plan to write letters of information/introduction for PNMs that I feel would be assets to my GLO.

The membership committee can either read it or throw it in the trash. I do not want great women to not have an honest look at them simply because they do not have connections with the current chapter members.

Thankfully our alumnae group still has a working, year-around Rec Commitee.

I would think that requiring recs to receive a bid (as some orgs have a policy of) and using them are two vastly different things. This changes very little in actual practice, but sounds good for those outside the Greek system who don’t understand how rush or recs or anything work.

True, but I predict the same orgs dropping recs will also drop them as a requirement to pledge.

Besides putting a girl from out-of-state or from a small town on the radar of a chapter, they can be life-saving for a chapter - alerting them to that PNM who is adorable in person and looks great on paper, but has a very less than wonderful background.

When we decided to stop giving legacies preferential treatment, we were told that our rec form was being revised...my assumption is to remove references to legacy status. I haven't heard that we are no longer accepting recs and my understanding is that if the school takes recs, we'll take them.

Isn't this the same thing 33girl said? That they've been required by some orgs to receive a bid (or "pledge" an org), the requirement is now being dropped, but recs can still be received?

Yes.

They can still be used as part of rating and voting, but you don’t have to have one in order to receive a bid.

I mean, I am guessing (hoping) that our national policies have not become so regimented that extracurricular A or personality trait B is weighted the exact same way at every university. If one university’s chapter finds recs useful, treat them as such. If another university’s chapter has found them not useful, treat them as such. It’s already stated a rec doesn’t guarantee a bid.

National HQs can talk until they’re blue in the face about not using recs or even accepting them, but if XYZ at Ole Miss has 2000 girls to sift through and needs to cut half of them, they’ll either do something ridiculous like eliminate everyone with a last name from L-Z or else do something that makes a bit of sense, which is use recs.

And I so agree that this is all ridiculous pandering overcompensation geared to the media.

YES to both!

We are still accepting recs. I wrote one for Winter recruitment for a PNM. She is a legacy but the alumnae was told that the PNM would not receive preferential treatment.

Yep..I wrote one for a young lady heading to Alabama in the fall, but was told to wait to submit until the new form is out.

I asked one of our former national officers about this. This lady is very involved in the fraternal Capitol Hill efforts.
Being recommended for membership by a current member is a vital part of fraternal organizations legally remaining single sex groups.
That's what she told me. Phi Mu has gotten around this by their national prez just recommended everybody sight unseen.
NPC seems to be pushing for this as a body.
It'll be interesting to see how they get around this little requirement....or maybe they just want to open every group up to everybody?

Hey, let's just open up all our groups to everyone. Sight unseen, even. Bad reps. Terrible grades. Drama kings and queens.

"Hey, am I in the right place? I'm here to sign up for the Sigma thingy. I'm sorry I'm so tired, I stayed up all night doing acid."

"Is this where we get hazed? I heard that the last 2 classes got hazed really hard! I saw the videos everywhere!"

I read all these with interest. My wife was—in the late 70’s and 80’s—an “area rec sister” (MY TERMINOLOGY) for her sorority. ANY chapter nationally that wanted info on a rushee contacted her from a huge list of such alums, and she would do her best to check alumnae rolls (in our adjacent 8 or 10 county area) and locate sisters who lived in those sometimes rural areas to gather information (a rec) on the girl in question. Once in a while it was even a teacher or—the mother lode—a guidance counselor! (I know now and then she’d have to use a “non-sister” teacher or counselor and indicated that on the form or in a phone call.)

So my question—I know an important part of that was academics. And occasionally she would be able to shed some light on a young lady with less-than-stellar grades who might have had a year-long illness or perhaps been in an accident.
NOW, will sororities still get HS grade information from universities or—if not—will this new lack of submitted recommendations throw that in the Panhellenic dust bin as well? And will groups just receive a “Yes, she’s eligible” which could range anywhere from a 2.75 to a 4.00 +?

Well played - but oh, Good Grief!

THIS!!

Please thank your wife for taking on such a demanding position!

Funny story, I went to homecoming a couple of years ago and some new actives were telling me that some of their pledge class decided they would brand each other and so they did. The brothers had nothing to do with it. Guys are just different.

Not necessarily. I could see some female pledges doing this-especially if recs are not a factor.

The way Nationals for many organizations are going, I can easily see our beloved sororities becoming social clubs open to anyone. Forget recruitment, it will be "sign up as you will" and "meet and mingle" to learn about our organization.

Sounds outlandish but there's enough going on that the powers-that-be will make these decisions, at least eventually - but eventually may arrive sooner than we could imagine.

Kappa Alpha Theta is now allowing anyone to write a letter of recommendation for a PNM.

https://www.kappaalphatheta.org/members/introduce-pnm

That will go over well. Not. Sure, I'll trust this person who has no stake in my organization to put their 2 cents in.

In related university student news, the Illinois legislature is proposing that its public universities drop entrance exam requirements. Just another great reason to allow anyone attending an Illinois public university campus to join a fraternal greek organization :rolleyes:

Again, I hope that they are being sure to expressly educate the collegiate chapters on these changes or there are going to be a hell of a lot of confused girls reading rec letters from Jim and Fred.

I will be teaching college classes part-time again in the fall. I would so love to have educationally unqualified people in my classes, taking up space that people who will actually apply themselves should be in. :rolleyes: After a zillion years in education, I can tell you that a lot of people didn't get the grades or scores to get into college because they refused to apply themselves, and if they get in they will still not apply themselves.

Not sure if it will be permanent or has to do with COVID, but both the University of California system and the California State University system have dropped the admission testing for those applying this year. They have had record number of applications this go around because those who don't test well felt free to apply. They are using grade basis and looking at extracurriculars.

DaffyKD

The problem with that is that many schools (I taught in some in the past) pressure their teachers heavily to hand out A's like candy. The students look like Einstein on paper! Then they get to college...

It's ABLEIST to not allow people into college just because they won't be able to pass the classes! I can't even with you right now. I'm literally shaking. ;)

Just to clarify, a lot of Illinois universities (including U of I) are currently going test-optional temporarily due to Covid. It sounds like this bill would make that permanent. Applicants can still submit ACT or SAT scores if they want to, but they aren't required to. All other admission criteria will still apply. Here's some more information about the proposed bill, and here is a Test-Optional FAQ from UIC, as a rrepresentative sample.

ETA: Several Illinois schools already were test-optional pre-Covid, including Knox, DePaul, SIU, WIU, Monmouth, and University of Chicago.

What's the difference if you drop entrance exam requirements, or you have requirements and then admit 90% of the people anyways? At least they're a little transparent about it. PA State Schools have been admitting anything with a pulse, outside of West Chester, for ages. It's sad.

Gamma Phi Beta has dropped recommendations and will now accept letters of recommendation from anyone. The new form should be released on 5/17.

I'm a private admissions counselor in a group practice. This year, nearly 60% of our students applied to college without test scores. We did not see unexpected results. Top students with large numbers of AP and/or IB courses with high grades, strong extracurricular activities, and (presumably) strong recommendations still got into highly selective colleges. Good students who tossed applications at highly selective colleges didn't get admitted. We have lots of students who apply to the University of California campuses. That system was test blind this year via a court order. Again, we didn't see unexpected results.

Most colleges that are test blind (will not look at scores) or test-optional (will consider if submitted) will still look at AP/IB scores. They also look at awards and recognitions from national and regional competitions, like the National Latin Exam, American Mathematics Exam, National History Day, Science Fairs, and so on.

We tell our students that when you apply test-optional, that just means that all other parts of your application get more scrutiny.

Based on working with hundreds of college applicants, just about anyone willing to spend $2500-$4000 on individual test prep can legitimately raise an ACT score from 23 to 30 or higher. Gains on the SAT are harder, especially for applicants without strong reading skills and vocabulary. We don't do test prep, but we keep in touch with folks who do a good job, and we see what money and time can buy. We also know the process that needs to be followed at high schools in our area to qualify and get approved for extended time. Many lower-income students who ought to qualify for extended time based on ADD or other learning disabilities never get that because they don't know to ask and their guidance counselors have huge caseloads.

I'm unconvinced that the SAT or ACT adds a lot of value, especially since money can (and does) buy prep that can achieve just about any desired score. There are cram schools in some cities where a few weeks of prep results in more than half the students earning 1500 or higher on the SAT.

What we did see this year is that less selective colleges (and most of the colleges in America are less selective) are under-enrolled for this fall and that hundreds are still accepting applicants for fall admissions. I made inquiries two weeks ago for a student with a radical change of plan, and seven of the nine less selective colleges I checked were still quietly accepting applications for engineering, though only three were on the space available list published by NACAC.

I remember back in the day, one of my pledge sisters was working in the admissions office at Pitt. She showed me the applications of a couple of athletes, with SAT scores between 420-440. You get 400 points for signing your name. :rolleyes:

From a Parent perspective I've noticed all of this as well. My oldest applied to two less selective colleges as back-ups (and because they were test runs for filling out the applications and he had 'apply for free" codes). he has been bombarded with emails and letters from those schools saying "you didn't start here, but you can finish here!". One of his acquaintances that didn't get into one of those schools for fall semester received a similar message from the college and he transferred at the semester break.

as for no recs, I think recs are helpful. They are not make or break for us though. We don't have our pledge class 100% selected before recruitment even starts. The best "recs" we get are the No-recs. The danger ahead recs.

YES. My oldest daughter and I no-recced a girl whom we had seen attack the assistant director at Scout camp. (She was a counselor.)One day, the phone rang and it was the head of AOII's alum rec committee in that town--she couldn't reach my daughter about the no-rec and wanted to ask me to thank her. The committee had done some searching and found out that this girl had a record for assault in a few places.

By the way, here was the outcome. The girl didn't get a bid from anyone and the college president harassed the one sorority with slots available to take her. They finally did. A member of that chapter told me that the girl was kicked out in a few weeks for assaulting a sister.

If anyone is questioning the value of a recommendation, this should help you make up your mind!

I understand that Kappa Alpha Theta has opened its recommendation forms to any human.