Is there really such a thing as "competitive" and "non-competitive" recruitment?
 

I would argue that there is no such thing as "competitive" and "non-competitive" recruitment.

I know, I know that sounds crazy. How can recruitment at an SEC school even compare with a small school with a small greek population?

But hear me out. The recruitments feel very different but the member selection methodology is the same.

If schools are utilizing RFM as directed by NPC - then all recruitments are virtually the same, bed quota schools excluded, in terms a PNM's chances of getting into a sorority. That's the way RFM is set to work.

Let's look at it this way. The big SEC type schools that publish post recruitment figures, show that very few, if any, PNMs get totally released from recruitment. Statistically, it is a very small percentage.

What you have is girls withdrawing from recruitment because they don't like the options they have left.

So what makes a school appear "competitive?" Bottom line, I think it is school that are still tiered in nature with large greek systems. Where PNMs want certain sororities and are not open to others.

At my daughter's "non-competitive" school, PNMs were surprised at how deep the cuts were by two chapters after round one. Totally the nature of RFM.

Now at my daughter's school, recruitment is much more "come as your are" with girls not necessarily focused on wardrobe and makeup like what you see at "competitive" schools. Girls can sign up a couple days before recruitment begins and I don't think that hurts them in the member selection process. It's designed to be for relaxed and casual.

It lulls you into a false believe that member selection is not as selective as you would see at an SEC school.

HOWEVER - I would assert that it is still FORMAL RECRUITMENT and because you have the same computer programing methodology working on the back end - If you have two chapters that everyone lists as 1 and 2 - Their cuts have to be deep. And your chance of getting an invite back to those two chapters is similar to what you would find at an SEC school where you have popular chapters that everyone wants. You can't argue with the math and methodology.

I think we do a disservice to girls going through by labeling things "competitive" and "non-competitive." The numbers in the membership selection process are the same across the board. They are following identical methodology.

What IS different is how relaxed the process is in terms of the parties and PNM expectations. Kind of like the difference between a casual afterwork happy hour and a black tie affair. So the PNMs probably feel less stressed and may be open to more options.

But just like an SEC school, you should not have your heart set on chapter ABC that everyone wants. And at many of these "non-competitive" schools, particularly the highly academic ones, you have sororities putting high value on certain extra curricular activities and trying to get the most National Merit Finalists.

I believe the recruitment process can be a more relaxed and less stressful experience for the PNM as some schools - but equally "competitive" with the same membership selection structure behind the scenes.

I disagree. At nearly every campus, there will be one or two or so "competitive" chapters with high return rates that most of the PNMs want to join due to reputation. But few to no PNMs withdraw from recruitment or even school if they are dropped from those chapters like we see at "competitive" schools like in the SEC. There are also small Greek schools, say with fewer than five chapters, where each chapter has a fairly specific "flavor" (i.e.: athletes, high GPA, party girls etc.) All chapters are on an even playing field as far as competitiveness because they each tend to attract a certain type of PNM.

When it comes down to it, competitiveness is mostly from the individual PNM's perspective. If you're dropped from a chapter you desperately want, you will believe your campus is competitive. And it probably is for that chapter.

But to put a school like Ole Miss' competitiveness on the same level as a Midwestern liberal arts college with four NPC chapters is ridiculous.

I see what you’re saying, but I do think there is a distinct difference that isn’t being taken into account. Placement numbers are determined by the women who sign MRABA’s and get a bid, they don’t include women who dropped out because they didn’t like their houses, but they also don’t include women who are completely released. Those women still exist. Whether it’s grades, Recs or bad reputation sometimes women who maxed their options don’t make it to preference round. In my opinion that’s where the distinction between “competitive” and “non-competitive” comes into play. Take this with a grain of salt because I did not attend a “competitive” school, but my school also only ever had 1 total release (didn’t meet NPC grade requirement) in the four years I was there. At another “competitive” school that’s more common and a reality PNM’s face and need to be prepared for, which explains why PNM’s at more competitive schools need to prepare more to ensure they’ve lessened that likelihood significantly.

This. There are people who would tell you that my alma mater is "super competitive" but that's only because they were cut from like, 6 of 8 off the bat. Or 2 of the 3 they decided they really wanted when they met the chapters at Welcome Weekend.

I think sometimes people look at how a pnm would do at one school versus another school. For example, a stellar girl From one high with great grades, activities and recommendations could go through a highly competitive sec school and end with a house after being dropped by some to many. However, another girl From the same high school With similar credentials at a less competitive school might have her pick of the litter. I think this perpetuates competitive vs non competitive status.

This.

Here is a look at the actual release numbers from an SEC school @GoldenAnchor I wish more schools would be this transparent. It gives PNMs a good idea of what they are actually facing.

The 2018 numbers for UGA.
UGA in 2018
First Round
1702 Attending
7 Withdrawn (Voluntary)
0 Released (no invitations)

Second round
1695 Invited to parties
21 Withdrawn
0 Released (no invitations)

Third round
1674 Invited to parties
118 Withdrawn
0 Released (no invitations)

Preference
1558 Invited to parties
108 Withdrawn
0 Released (no invitations)

Totals
Pledged (1393/1702) 82%
Withdrawn (254/1702) 15%
Released (0/1707) 0% nobody at UGA was released by all chapters
Not matched (58/1702) 3% (SIP/Suicide)
Quota 68 Freshmen, 7 Upperclass

That was an improvement from 2017
Pledged (1347/1707) 79%
Withdrawn (280/1707) 16%
Released (13/1707) .1% - So still a VERY small amount.
Not matched (66/1707) 3% (SIP/Suicide)
Quota 66 Freshmen, 9 Upperclass

First of all, the Released number is the only one in 2018 where the denominator is 1707, all the rest are 1702, so I presume that is incorrect.

Secondly, in some ways 2017 feels less odd. At a school like Georgia it seems more likely there should be someone somewhere that wants to do the Greek Life but is completely unsuited, but is deluded enough to think they are.

That appears to be a typo. Sorry. I did not bother to type out the breakdown from 2017. But 1702 attended first round in 2018 and 1707 attended first round in 2017.

The interesting thing about the PNMs released in 2017 is 1 was round 3 and 12 were pref.

That would be tough, getting released right toward the end. :(

I think that there's an angle to the smaller schools that sometimes people forget. And that's the fact that by the time you get to rush - often in the spring of freshman year, or fall of sophomore year - a lot of relationships are already established. You have been in class with greek women, traveled together on sports team, worked together in clubs or on student government, etc. So it becomes a different type of competitiveness. One house may be the "athlete" house, but with only 30 spots, they aren't taking all of the freshman athletes.

For example: If you are a freshman on the girls swim team and you simply love the gamma phis on your team (for example) because you've practiced 4 days a week with them, you've traveled with them, gone through team bonding with them, etc. So you get to rush, you go through rush with your other swim team freshman friends, and you feel great about gamma phi, everybody is excited that it's the house they want, you love the sisters you know and then bam. Gamma phi isn't going to take the entire girls freshman swim team, and you and 2 others get cut and suddenly you are devasted, feel betrayed, don't understand why the others got in and you didn't, ewonder if your friends like you as much as you thought, feel left out, etc.

Yes, of course as adults, we would argue that you should never think anything is a guarantee, keep an open mind, give every house a chance, and don't put all of your eggs in one basket. But when you are a freshman going through it and all you hear about is how these relationships matter, the competition gets pretty intense, even if you aren't aware of it at the time.

Would I compare it to an Ole Miss or Bama rush? No. But there's a different type of intensity there and one shouldn't underestimate it.

You have elaborated on what I was trying to say. An SEC type school has recruitment that is way more intense and there is a pressure on the PNMs who feel like they have to get into the greek system. At many of the less greek focused schools - there is not the added pressure of what people might think if you don't join a GLO.

The point I was trying to make is that there may be more value, stress, pressure placed on PNMs at SEC type schools, but the actual statistical ability to join a sorority is probably the same. It may not feel that way - but I suspect the NPC data would support that.

My daughter went through fall formal recruitment at a school that I thought was going to be very "easy." It's not a small liberal arts college like many of the schools with small greek systems are. It's actually a mid-sized, highly academic state school with a diverse student population. In this case I think academic performance and achievements are weighted very heavily. (example Ole Miss has around 30 national merit scholarships - my daughter's school has over 140). At her school - the sororities compete for NMF PNMs. While any of us who were in the greek system know grades and scholarship are important - there seems to be a heightened focus at this school.

So what sororities look for in a sister is not necessarily the same at different schools. But there is still the membership quota set by RFM.

In my daughters Rho Gam group they had one girl upset with her day two invites. She went to the parties but did not rank afterwards (Withdrew). And they had one girl SIP and not get placed. There were about 200 PMNs. So either my daughter had an unfortunate Rho Gam group - or things probably played out similar to the UGA stats. Since the attrition in my daughters Rho Gam group that I know about (I believe there were more - these were just the two she was close with, she tried to talk the one that withdrew into sticking it out) would be 1% of PNMs.

And according to NPC placement of PNMs that attend round one parties is 80% nationally. I think you probably won't find much deviation from that statistic - from large schools with huge greek systems to smaller schools with a handful of chapters.

In the smaller, "less competitive" schools we visited, it seems that the process is more mutually selective and the PNMs have a say in the matter. Whereas in the "competitive" SEC school my daughter has ultimately chosen, there seem to be a couple of sororities that exist to take the girls who are cut from the other sororities. As we prepare to go through recruitment next year, I think it just creates a different vibe, and it gives PNMs the mindset that they have little or no control over where they'll land, even if they are legacies.

I'm curious about what they said to lead you to believe that it is a mutually selective process?

If it's you rushing, it's competitive.

I was waiting on you yo show up and say this! I love this quote.

Yes, this. I also believe that how difficult it is to be accepted into the university plays a part. It is more difficult to stand out at schools where everyone has a high gPa and a list of leadership experience a mile long.

I do not believe it was any more mutually selective at my daughter's school. And with recruitment being just three rounds (4 parties, Max 3, then two for pref) It was a pretty fast paced and the first round cuts were deep by two sororities. And you also ranked 1-4 from day one. As an outsider I think that makes girls focus on their "top" choice their first day. I would like it to be ranking 1,1,1 and 2 on day one and 1,1 and 2 on day two. But I'm not a RFM expert - but I suspect there is a reason why they rank 1-4 beginning on day one - and I bet that helps refine list size even more. Most of the people my daughter talked with did not have 3 parties the second round. Most had two. So right there that kills the myth of mutual selection - if you don't have a full party list.

And at SEC schools I don't think you can say that there are sororities that 'exist to take girls who are cut from other sororities.' They exist for their sisterhood. It is determined that whatever greek system it is- can support X number of sororities based on the number of girls going through recruitment. Girls need to be open to all options and not just focus on the "popular" ones. And part of this is all greek woman need to support all chapters. It's fine to compete at greek week and other competitions - but in general campus life you should NEVER utter a negative comment about another GLO.

^^^^^THIS^^^^^

My daughter's grades/academic performance/extra curricular activities would have been honors program and a recruitment positive were I pledged and graduated. If you look that the "Green, Yellow, Red" zones that some of the SEC schools put out - she is way, way green.

At her school - she is "below average" in terms of HS GPA.

@BlueBayou, I'm not saying that a girl can't have a sisterhood in a sorority. I think sisterhood is where you look for it. In fact, I think you can often have a better chance at finding it at a place that is more welcoming for who you are as a whole person. But, the reality is that if you were to eliminate 2 or 3 sororities from some of these SEC campuses, you would literally have hundreds of girls who would be released or you would have ginormous pledge classes. At one time, it was the former. So, yes, the reality is that there are sororities that were added to give every girl a better chance for sisterhood. It's a good thing, but the reality is also there that there are sororities who do have the girls who didn't have the recs, the connections, the tippy-top grades, etc to get into some sororities. If you look on Alabama's recruitment page, it lists the GPAs required for each chapter. If you have a 3.2 GPA, you are not getting a bid to seven of the 19 chapters and the statistics say that you will most likely only be invited back to 2 or 3 second-round parties.

I assure you, none of our sorority chapters exist to do this. You really need to put the brakes on with the misinformation before it affects your daughter's point of view. That kind of attitude would be harmful at a "less competitive" school and disastrous at a competitive SEC school.

NO, that is not how RFM works. RFM is entirely based on the number of PNMs.

You are not Greek. Your child is not yet Greek. You have no internal knowledge of our organizations and chapters. The opinions you are posting here are incorrect and could have grave consequences for your daughter. Plus, you're insulting us and all of our Panhellenic sisters.

Re smaller schools and the one or two more popular chapters- this is why I had a herd of cows when my alma mater had the VERY dumb idea of allowing first semester freshmen to participate in informal (or I guess what is called now “minimally structured”) rush. The only exposure they got to each sorority was 5 minutes at a table in a gym - other than that they weren’t compelled to go to any events and there was no coordinated schedule. The outcome was exactly what you’d expect - the one or two most popular groups had the most people attending events and since there of course was no quota, they only bid up to total (which they were already closest to to begin with).

Naturally a lot of girls who wanted these most popular sororities were disappointed, and most of them didn’t look at other groups or try again - they said “XYZ didn’t bid me so Greek life is full of stuck up jerks.”

Now my school has a very small Greek system population wise, but obviously this was not “more mutually selective.”

But to the subject of the thread - I think the “competitive” aspect of SEC etc rush is just getting in the door in the first place. A high GPA and recs are practically mandatory to get past the first round.

Also, the number crunching needs to include how many women accept bids on bid day vs how many women actually initiate. When you hear 1000 women received bids but only see 900 women getting initiated, it’s usually because they went to bid day at Icky Iota and Bad Fit Beta, tried it for a week, and then quit. That sort of thing seems more likely to happen at the schools deemed competitive.

I agree with this. That if the initiation rate is disproportionate among chapters - that is impacting the outcomes and greek system health beyond the actual "formal recruitment" process.