Would you support raising the minimum GPA for freshman PNMs?
 

I was just speaking to my sister over the phone and she mentioned that she thought that the minimum GPA for NPC sororities was too low, she really likes that Kappa Kappa Gamma raised their minimum GPA to a 3.3 to join and thinks that the other sororities should bump up the GPA minimum for freshman, I agreed with her and so I am posing this question just to ask if you all would support bumping up the minimum GPA or what you think of the GPA requirements currently.

Just conversation fodder!

(The reason I ask this is because her school is very legacy based and she is in a very popular sorority there at the University of Texas, they had a PNM go through with a 1.9 GPA when the minimum required for her sorority is a 2.5 and her sorority voted to “let it slide”, at what point do you think letting things slide sets one up for failure and how do you think sororities should respond to grades and GPA)

In our sorority, there is no room to "let is slide". It is cut and dry. The minimum GPA established by the chapter's by-laws dictates what is permitted. As an adviser, I have seen legacies (unfortunately once a daughter of a personal friend from my chapter) come through just a sliver below our minimum GPA and she was cut. It needs to be included in the by-laws as gospel.

Recruiting members who will be productive students who have time to devote to chapter activities is critical. It doesn't do anyone any good to recruit pnms with poor GPAs to have them drop out of school or be prohibited from participating in social events because their GPA is sub par. Far better to recruit women who can manage the demands of class and sorority participation simultaneously.

I would sooner support universities instituting a minimum GPA to rush. Schools want to be so inclusive and as a result, let many, many girls rush who should not be encouraged to rush, at least not as freshmen. We have all seen the university Panhellenic pages that specifically state that there is no minimum GPA to rush, so girls happily sign up. They don't seem to understand the disconnect between the university's statement and the reality of sorority minimum GPA to be eligible for a bid.

This.

DoeofDenmark, NPC sororities are autonomous. The sororities are free to run their organizations as they see fit:to decide what minimum GPA requirement their chapters have, when initiation will be held, etc. As Thetalady suggested, it would be far more helpful for each college panhellenic to set a minimum GPA that has to be met in order to rush. It seems quite mercenary to allow everyone to sign up and pay a fee to rush, when often the chapters have higher GPA requirements than the min GPA required to sign up. Those low GPA girls don't have a chance to receive a bid.

The problem is, that would be going down the autonomous member selection slippery slope, same as panhellenics cannot say that women must have recs to rush at schools where you are in actual practice cut almost immediately without them. In the OP’s example...that’s entirely the sorority’s prerogative. If they want to give someone on her way to flunk out land a bid, they can.

Plus since women are coming from all different schools, the university would be opening themselves up to accusations of reverse discrimination- as we all know a 4.0 at high school A does not necessarily connote the same level of education and skill as a 4.0 at high school B.

Of course if they didn’t permit women to rush until they had an actual university GPA that might help :) since everyone would be measured with the same yardstick.

I just looked at the Greek Life page for the school I attended. They have a spreadsheet listing the minimum GPA for first year freshman for every chapter on campus. The minimums run from 2.5-3.8. The NPC chapters are on the higher end vs the other councils on campus. For fall 2019, the school received 94,000 applications which means they have a wide variety of student from which to select, so the majority of their new freshmen will meet the minimum requirements set by each chapter..

DaffyKD

(The reason I ask this is because her school is very legacy based and she is in a very popular sorority there at the University of Texas, they had a PNM go through with a 1.9 GPA when the minimum required for her sorority is a 2.5 and her sorority voted to “let it slide”, at what point do you think letting things slide sets one up for failure and how do you think sororities should respond to grades and GPA)[/QUOTE]

How in the world did someone with a 1.9 get admitted to the University of Texas? I have known of girls with outstanding grades and involvement who were rejected.

here's my thought: the PNM is a sophomore. That's her college GPA.

Don't know how far into this discussion we all can go, b/c it's membership selection. My opinion. Ciao!

And NPC is NEVER going to advocate or support moving all recruitment to 2nd semester or 2nd year (sophomores).

Exactly, hence the :) . Oh well!

How in the world did someone with a 1.9 get admitted to the University of Texas? I have known of girls with outstanding grades and involvement who were rejected.[/QUOTE]

AZtheta was correct, I am sorry! I forgot to mention that she was a second year and went through recruitment.

At my school, we do have a minimum GPA to go through recruitment, but every single chapter has a higher standard than the university. Average chapter GPAs at my school range from 3.35ish upwards to 3.8ish.

My chapter has increased our new member GPA requirement every year since I've been here, as have many of the others. For reference, we are a deferred school, so these are all college GPAs. I believe the highest standard this past recruitment was 3.0.

I agree with thetalady that it would be good to raise the university minimum. I see a lot of girls above the university min., who think they are fine going in, that get grade dropped and don't understand why.

3.8? I would expect that would make the sorority more exclusive than Phi Beta Kappa...

That’s high school GPA.

This. I call shenanigans. I know girls with a 3.6 (and then some) out of high school who have not been admitted. With fall recruitment for UT, we're not talking about their college GPA, we're talking about their HS GPA, and I just don't buy that someone was admitted with a 1.9. It's gotten so impossible to get in these days.

For those who don't know the situation...read this blog post: https://www.theparentsdean.com/blog-...GGp38mnllcauAI

Adding - just saw the part about 2nd year. Even with that being a separate quota...I'm not convinced.

For a sophomore to be given a bid when she has legacy, a roster of activities, a pretty face, popular with the sisters, was a debutante, and her family gives money to the school and to the sorority. It is not unheard of at all, but if you would like to call doubt onto me, feel free.

It happens...esp those with big Greek systems where there is a lot of $$$$ and/or influence(like the daughter of a sitting AAA national council member, etc.).....

Exactly.

Thank you.

I have first hand personal knowledge of at least one situation which is pretty much what you just described, Titchou. Order came from HQ to extend a bid. Not saying which chapter or where. Again, we're dancing around MS territory. That's all I got.

Really? In the land of PKT, glitter and dance parties, your summer camp determining your placement, etc?
Stranger things, I’m sure.

If anything, I think that the state of affairs re that blog post would increase things like OP girl’s situation happening.

It's that sorority's right to choose their own new members. If they felt that family prestige, looks and whatever else were going to add just as much, if not more, value to the chapter than a higher GPA, then so be it. It's their chapter GPA they're going to tank by bidding the 1.9 GPA girl. If they have 200 members, the one bad GPA might have little to no overall poor effect anyway.

And it may be a one-off situation. Maybe the chapter doesn't routinely do this and we're blowing the one-time exception out of proportion. We can play what-if all day. "What if" a PNM is a highly qualified and a genuinely sweet and outstanding girl, but sustained a terrible family tragedy her first semester which negatively affected her GPA? Does she not possibly deserve to receive an exception? Even if a chapter wants to bid random, low-achievers all day long, they can. So, no, I don't support raising the GPA minimums as it's something of an artificial fix if a chapter is still allowed to override the policy. All we can do is continue to impress upon our members the importance of maintaining the highest of ideals when approaching our membership selection.

Still, a 3.8 on a 4.0 scale? That still would knock out a majority of potential pledges at almost any school (maybe not Yale or MIT)

With AP classes being weighted differently, many incoming students have higher than a 4.0.

She also said that’s for every Greek org on campus, not just NPC sororities.

Agreed and that really messes things up. Within my local area, there are school systems where a B in AP Calculus counts as 4.0, others where it counts as a 3.75 and some where it counts as a 3.0 (And then there are IB programs). Sometimes I wonder if the colleges should recalculated it for consistency.

OK, I wonder what GLOs have the 3.8 then. None of the honoraries are likely to pay attention to HS GPA's at all...

Apologies...wasn't meaning to call doubt onto you at all! I'm just shocked actually because of how stressful the whole academic situation is at UT. How is the person in question able to go through recruitment when she doesn't meet the panhellenic minimum GPA to do so? I just am surprised...that's all, I guess.

Care to elaborate? I'm not being snarky, honestly curious. I'm sitting watching girls with 3.7+ (unweighted) coming out of high school that can't get in to save their lives, but getting into more "prestigious" private schools...it's really bizarre particularly this year.

I'm just surprised that Panhellenic let her go through with a GPA less than their minimum?

I'm not questioning the chapter...it's their business for sure (and as you said, likely a one-off) but it's the UT panhellenic I'm more surprised about?

Whoa!! College Panhellenic may NOT establish a minimum GPA for PNMs to participate in rush, per the MOI.

" College Panhellenics that wish to highlight the importance of academics by communicating GPA standards for women participating in recruitment shall do so through educating potential new members, not through setting a minimum GPA. "

Not only that, she may not have gone through formal rush at all. There’s nothing that says a sorority can only choose their pledges from women participating in formal rush.

This is pure speculation, and is going to be really politically incorrect.

“We may have had to endure the indignity of Li’l Poundcake not getting admitted directly onto main campus while OTHERS did, but boy howdy, we can make it certain that she gets into XYZ.”

Again, all speculation on my part.

I speak for my own experiences when I say that I’ve seen this all the time at our larger chapters with more popularity (Arkansas, Alabama, and Texas, for example). A bit of money, some prestige, legacy, and the potential to be great wipe away all worries of GPA. It happens today and it happened back in the Stone Age when I was a PNM. The simple fact of the matter is that sororities depend on their alumnae groups and angering an alumna by not letting in her legacy is something that’s worried about. It’s sad but it’s the way of sororities these days. Without support, some chapters don’t thrive, letting in a legacy and keeping everyone happy is the easiest route, it may not be the right one but it’s definitely done.

My bad. All the "super highly suggested above 2.5 stuff" gets twisted sometimes in conversations.

Absolutely makes sense.

From my standpoint, most (all?) of the women I see that get CAPed (being allowed to go to another UT school and transfer in later) elect NOT to do that, and instead go to Austin Community College, live in the private dorms with their friends and then transfer into UT Austin as a 2nd semester freshman or 1st semester sophomore. This was an option that was less "socially acceptable" (for lack of a better phrase?) as recently as 4-5 years ago, but because of the situation there has become more "normal".

Thus the 1.9 makes me skeptical of transferring in...whether it be from another UT school or ACC - they still have to be admitted to UT Austin, and I know several who were not admitted as transfers. Obviously there's exceptions to every rule and the exception in question may have had two semesters in UT (spring freshman and summer freshman) to tank her GPA.

Again, totally makes sense.

Thanks for everyone's input. This is a personally interesting conversation to me (obviously!) and I didn't mean to stir the pot at all and have people pearl-clutching (ha!) over my comments. I know enough about the situation there (enough to be dangerous anyway!), so I'm invested.

The thing is, I have seen more and more Li'l Poundcakes cut from their legacy groups every year. I have to wonder whether the members just don't care anymore if they lose financial support of alums, because I know of several chapters who knew they would lose a lot if they cut certain girls and they did it anyway.

DoeofDenmark if you can answer this from my other post (you might not be able to) I would be curious...

The options I see for a 1.9 GPA going through as an upperclassman...

1) Can't be their first semester at UT Austin, because the 1.9 would have been from another college/university and I can't see them getting admitted with that GPA?

2) Then it has to be their 2nd or 3rd semester as a UT Austin student...admitted in spring, went through fall recruitment (or picked up as a COB during the late summer or something). Terrible GPA from being a student at UT Austin, but was fine enough at other college to get admitted.

3) Couldn't be Spring pledge because if she was that special of a snowflake, she would have gone through fine in the fall. If she had just transferred into UT Austin in January, she would in the first scenario above.

I'm less interested in the membership selection portion of this (to each their own) and just trying to figure out how this person got INTO the school.

Many schools admit students based on a score comprised of GPA + standardized test scores (and other factors). While it's not necessarily the norm, it's definitely possible to be admitted into a competitive school with a less than competitive GPA. I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Telling me not to worry about it whilst trying to get relatives with crazy high GPAs in (or at least giving them good and accurate information to help them get in!) is like telling a crack addict to not notice the pipe sitting on the table. LOL! :D

I get that it is possible, but probable with a 1.9? I'm struggling with that.

Obviously DoeofDenmark isn’t on the admissions board at UT. She said from the get go that it was her sister who extended the bid to this girl. If you’d like to know how someone got into UT, their admissions office is open Monday-Friday. I don’t think how the girl got into UT is relevant at all, she got in, there’s nothing we can do about it.

How does a girl get into UT with a 1.9 GPA? Looks like we have our answer! https://finance.yahoo.com/news/felic...190801230.html

I love a good RuPaul's Drag Race reference.