A member stomps on the American flag....what do you do?
 

Yep, you read it correctly. Thursday night one of our members (sober) decided to start talking about freedom in this country and how it doesn't truly exist. He then decided to pull down the American flag that we have in the front yard, bring it into the living room, and in front of almost every active member he starts stomping and spitting on it.

It was a very distrubing scene which ended up in a fight between him and another brother.

So what should be done about this? Should the member be expelled for doing something like that? What is your opinion?

Personally, I feel we should boot the fu#*$r out right now and some other members feel the same. Yet, there are others that don't think we should kick him out and now the long and tiring process begins.......

Re: A member stomps on the American flag....what do you do?
 

Take out a couple pictures of his family and stomp on them.

-Rudey
--Patriotic

Your standards board will be working overtime on this one. :rolleyes:

I think that you need to decide if this behavior is out of character or typical of this brother. If it is typical, you have a big problem. If it is out of character, he definitely needs to know that this is unacceptible behavior. A probationary period is an option.

Tough to say but if his values don't match fraternity standards give him the boot.

Don't expell him, he could sue you for restricting his first amendment right. And yeah according to Texas v Johnson it does extend to defacing the flag. It was his right to say that, but you should pull him into Standards and tell him that behavior is not okay during fraternity times....

It sounds to me like he was posturing for "shock value" in front of the group?

If he is whining that he has no freedom, then I invite him to travel a bit, go to the Middle East, go to Asia, go to Cuba (by way of Toronto), then come back and hopefully he will be a bit more grateful for his cushy life. Many countries like Germany and Israel have a MANDATORY military service for 2-3 years, so if he is whining about how he has no freedom, perhaps he could give that some thought. Quite frankly, I think he needs to be smacked!

I am not saying that Canada nor the USA are perfect, but I have travelled extensively (I have hit every continent, but South America and Antarctica) and all I can say is we have it pretty good here in North America. The only country that can hold a candle to our countries (i.e. Canada and USA) is Australia, and that's only because the weather is so fantastic!

As for what should your fraternity do? Don't kick him out for it, but I would certainly tell him that you found his behavior to be offensive and upsetting. He should also be made to either pay to have the flag replaced (if it was damaged or torn) or dry-cleaned.
Basically from the "Free Speech" angle, what he did (while objectionable) is permissible.
___________________________________
A day later....
Based on a subsequent post by damasa which provided more information about this individual, I have now changed my mind to "They should boot the member".

I feel all you can do is say thank god ( or whatever you believe in) you live in a country where the speech is free enough to do what they did. It is his right to express the way he feels in that way.

Its not that I agree with what was done, but I wonder what has happened to make him feel this way. And not to start a controversy (sp?) but in a way he is right. We are free to do whatever or say what ever we want, but some things are at a price and there are limitations. Unfortunatley, this country has its flaws like everother country does and to say it is equally free for everyone....well, at this point I just dont agree. But its the freest place on the earth and I am proud to be here!

So I guess I dont feel he should be kicked out for an expression of free speech or due to some frustration. We all do crazy shit when we're pissed so maybe instead of getting together and trying to find ways to kick him out, you should think of some ways to be brotherly to him and find out what is causing him to feel that way and how to change it.

Thank you for your time!! I m done !!

If you kick him out you're just proving his point.

This is a very good point by Billy.

I would try and modify his behavior. Tell him you understand his point, but he chose to do that with a flag that wssn't his property in front of people that didn't want to deal with it.

So, tell him to buy his own flag and masturbate with it or whatever at home . . whatever floats his boat. But not to damage someone else's property.

He can over and feel free to deface his flag in front of the brothers all he wants, but he can expect an ass whipping if he does. So he better be tough enough to deal.

But kicking him out is kind of stupid and Nazi like.

Kicking him out would definitely prove his point. Like someone said, defacing the flag is completely protected under the First Amendment. So, there are no legal grounds for kicking him out, but it's a Standards issue--especially since it's Fraternity property. It's the same thing as if he tore down the Fraternity flag and stomped on it--actually maybe even less serious, since that seems to me to be an ejectable thing.

conduct unbecoming of a member=expulsion, if one of our guys did that, id want him out b/c his values arent what we all believe as brothers

Yep, sure does.

Well, technically he is protected by law to jump up and down on the Flag, if it's his property. In this case, it really WASN'T his property. Plus, once a flag has touched the ground, it should be burned (according to STRICT Flag Etiquette). Therefore, the logical consequence of his behavior is to purchase a new flag, and raise it properly after a chapter meeting (or similar gathering). Enforcing the raising properly would mean he would have to read up on the Flag Etiquette, and could possibly educate the other members on that, making it a 'growing' experience for all. (I think an apology is also in order, but you can't really force him to apologize for his opinions, just his behavior re:someone elses property)

Besides that, I think a few brothers should have a heart to heart with him (his big, maybe?) to find out what's really going on. Is he feeling hopeless and trapped with all of the terrorism stuff going on? Is is something else that he chose to express that way? We all lose it from time to time, and do some really stupid, regretful things (but not always in front of an audience). I don't think he should be automatically expelled without trying to figure out what is going on and helping him with his problems first. If he continues to throw fits and destroy property, well. . .maybe the counseling center should get involved.

There are two different issues going on here in my opinion. The members of your chapter or I might not agree with his treatment of an American flag but I feel that it is important that he retains his right to protest by burning or otherwise harming the flag. What bothers me more about the incident is that he chose to do so with a flag that belongs not to him but to the chapter as a whole. It wasn't his own flag to treat as he desires. It was community property and thus his actions were disrespectful of fraternity. Perhaps you might consider telling him that while you disagree with his actions that you won't intervene if he repeats it with a flag he has purchased for such activities and not one that belongs to the fraternity at large.
I hope I'm being clear about what I'm trying to say, but it's been a really long week here!

I agree totally! I chaird our disciplinary committee, and bottom line is that people do things for a reason, and your best bet is to find out what that reason is.

I think that you should either:

a) give him props for expressing his opinion, even if you don't like the way he did it because that takes guts, or

b) ask him to replace the flag and otherwise ignore it, if he's really just looking for attention.

I strongly feel that the flag is just a *symbol* of what makes our country what it is -- which is a country based upon certain values, one of the most important being freedom of expression. He's trying to shock you, but you and the rest of the members have the power to refuse to be shocked. Okay, so he stomped on the flag and some of you didn't like that. Is he still your brother and do you still care about him as such? If yes, let it go.

The American Flag is a symbol. A symbol of violently overthrowing laws that were unfair. If it has become a symbol of unfairness then that issue needs to be addressed and corrected. Kicking someone out because he has a differrent opinion than you is very brotherly. In fact, that is the opposite of what brotherhood means. Brotherhood=unconditional love. Do not be your brother's keeper. Be your brother's brother. If you care about someone enough to call him a brother then you should love him unconditionally. If you call some one a brother then you should find out what is going on with him, and why he did that, othewise YOU suck as brother. I love my brothers :)

Right or wrong, The Flag Of The United States of America represents all of the 50 States and its people! You And Me!

To Disrespect Our Flag, is to disrespect the symbol of what we are.

I would boot the Dum Ass! Right or wrong, We are what we are! Not OUR GOVT playing Games, But the People such as each and everyone of use on this site!

I am a very Profound American, but I do not agree with everything that is being done! I dont like it!

But if bombs started going off in our citys, killing innocent people as 9-11 what do you think you would do and feel!

I have been in this position so I know from what I speak! HAVE YOU?

I don't know if that was directed towards me, but never tell me that I suck as a brother. You don't know our brotherhood and you certainly don't know me. I understand that he had a right to protest, but he used a flag that wasn't owned by him, he used a flag owned by the fraternity.

This certain brother has had a history of problems and violence in our fraternity. This is the latest issue in his outspoken hatred of our country (or so it seems). Earlier this year he had a confrontation with one of our African-American members and he proceeded to use racial slurs. He was suspended at that time. Now this happens. He has been in trouble before that, at one point threatening a girl in a sorority on campus which almost brought our fraternity into a legal battle (luckily all charges were dropped).

Like I said before, I understand that he was enforcing his right to freedome of speech, but it is problem after problem after problem with this brother and I personally feel that he should be expelled.

Then again, maybe the ass beating he got after the incident by another brother was enough of a punishment? I don't know, but now that brother is also going up for review.

Again, I can't kick anyone out by myself, nor do I want to, but I feel that there is no other option.

As for props, he gets none from me, the guy has shamed me at this point and it is going to take a lot for me to be able to look at him the same way.

As for the "you suck as a brother" comment, I'm sorry but I'm probably one of the best brothers in my fraternity. I'll do anything for my brothers and I work my ass off for the fraternity. But there comes a poimt, and if he were to get booted (which I feel should have already happened) I think it is because of his unbrotherly actions (not the stomping on the flag) which is more like the icing on the cake kind of thing.

Why did he do it? He has told some of the brothers that he simply "hates this country." Why I don't know, but he is a nationl French citizen, not a natural American citizen.

That wasn't directed at anyone. It was hypothetical.

You guys should kick him to the curb. He appears to be a chapter eye-sore.

is it really that nice?

make him buy a new flag. but don't kick him out. he's excercising his first amendment. isn't that the same thing that the frats down at Auburn were doing when they put on blackface? if that's free speech, then this is too.

It sounds to me like there's a lot of history of problems with this guy in the chapter.

If you're thinking about expelling him, I recommend that you try to consider all of the relevant circumstances. I do not think that anyone should be expelled solely for expressing a politically charged viewpoint. On the other hand, destruction of fraternity property does merit some sort of discipline, and it could be that the history this fellow has had with the chapter means that more discipline is warranted.

The fraternity should carefully consider how to weigh the freedom of expression question during its deliberations. As a legal matter, the First Amendment protects the individual from government punishment for his expression. It does not protect him from fraternity discipline. This does not mean that you don't still have to think about the question of free speech; it just means that there's no way he could somehow sue the fraternity if you expelled him based on his speech, except perhaps to demand a prorated refund of dues for time he ends up not spending as a member. (In fact, the First Amendment's freedom of association means that the government cannot force the fraternity to associate with expression of a viewpoint it loathes.)

Naturally, this is an emotionally charged issue. I would only advise you to think very carefully about it, weigh all the circumstances, including all the history with this individual.

Consider also the core principles of your fraternity. Most fraternities allow expulsion for the catch-all "conduct unbecoming a member of the fraternity." I have generally considered this to include "conduct violative of the cardinal principles of the fraternity," and I consider those to be much more important than whatever some random person on the street might find offensive. Applying the ideas tied up in such principles is often very hard to do in an emotionally charged situation. While you shouldn't state categorically, "well, this is against principle blah, so you're out," you might find that your core principles can guide you when you have a question that seems like it could go either way.

So, think slowly, think hard, and think carefully. Good luck to your chapter in handling this.

Good call.

If this was the first he ever did something like this, I would say simply make him replaced the flag if he damaged it, same as you would make him replace the house microwave if he broke it. But this sounds like the straw that broke the camel's back - and no, the Unfrozen Caveman Lawyer defense (i.e. I'm not from here, I don't know how to act) will not cut it. Definitely get rid of him.

What you and others seem to think is that just because someone has the privilege to free speech that others should sit there and take it. It might be free speech but his brothers have the right to judge him based on it, the fraternity's national office has a right to evaluate whether the chapter represents their ideals, and potential members have the option of choosing whether to join...all parties exercising their freedoms with a reaction to the original expression.

-Rudey

damasa,

Well, your additional post sheds more light on the subject! Sounds like this guy has some long standing anger control problems. You have his history of behavior also to consider when thinking of expulsion. If he's been suspended before, then you could consider suspending him (or putting him on probation) for a longer time period. You may also want to find out if you can require counseling as part of his suspension/probation. Chances are, with his history, he will mess up while on probation and then you can expel him. That's one option.

The values/principles ideas that others have said are very good points. Take those into consideration also. Don't decide at one meeting (whoever it is that meets to discuss this). Discuss, adjourn, and then vote/decide later. Give everyone a chance to think about all the arguments presented.

One other question to consider. . . How much of a liability is he?

Good Luck. This is one of those experiences that you'll learn from.

This isn't a First Ammendment issue. It's an issue of character or lack thereof in his case. He sounds like a magnet for trouble and problems for your fraternity. I think that your standards board or disciplinary committee ought to address this problem brother and put him on probation or whatever type of punishment you have. I'm sorry that you are going through this difficulty in your fraternity. It's amazing how one person's bad conduct can affect an entire group. Good luck.

so i guess everyone in here thinks it was ok for those frats to get kicked off the campus, then huh? i'm pretty sure in the fraternity by laws, it says nothing about disagreeing with other brothers. or being anti-american. if he's in violation of the frat laws, he should be kicked out. you're right, it was the other brothers freedom of speech to whoop his ass. i don't think he should be kicked out. if one of my frat brothers felt like that, cool. my day isn't messed up anymore.

Damasa,
He sounds like a serious trouble-maker and I do think he will continue to cause grief for you guys later on down the line.
Past behavior is a pretty good indication of future behavior, and he sure has been consistent in the past....(and I don't mean that in a good way). He has serious anger managment problems and he is a big liability. Threatening a girl on campus and using racial slurs against a fellow member -- he sounds like a loose cannon to me. I think it is time to boot him...not because of the flag ruining, but because he is someone who has serious behavior problems that show no sign of letting up.

As for the "Be your brother's brother, not your brother's keeper" comment, there is a limit and I think he crossed it a long time ago. He is an adult and therefore responsible for his actions. You're in college and your first priority is to get an education, not expend your energy and get stressed out trying to mop up behind this volatile, unbalanced guy and do damage control on behalf of your fraternity! I think to be "Your brother's brother"...your only obligation is for the fraternity to try to find out what is going on with his life, and to direct him to the help that he needs. If he doesn't want to help himself, well, you have done all that you can, and I think you can absolve yourself of any further responsibility.

Based on what I have read though, I feel that he has to go.

Originally posted by CutiePie2000
The only country that can hold a candle to our countries is Australia, and that's only because the weather is so fantastic!

Yes. Australia is wonderful.
Now back to our regularly scheduled thread....

:confused: Austrailia? Whatever. I like New Zealand, because hey, where exactly is Old Zealand?

If I saw someone stomping the flagg!:mad: I would....

APPLAUD!!!!!!

and maybe join him!!!!
Blackwatch!!!!!!!

While I wouldn't advocate kicking him out over this the argument of "free speech" I don't think is valid in this case.

So far as criminal prosecution... no that wouldn't go very far.

So far as your standards board... we are private entities recieving no government funding. The requirments for membership and what we ask of our members as far as moral code, etc is completely up to us. Free speech does not apply here.

For me the fact that he did it in the house makes it a little more pallatable than if he did the same act out in public. He just needs a little counseling/education on SOCIAL SKILLS.

Another side trip.
 

Zealand (in Dutch, Zeeland) is a province of the Netherlands.

Exactly the point that I was trying to get at, if it seemed to come out as cloudy, I apologize. I wanted to hold back on the politics involved because there are a few people (who go to my school) that frequent these boards and I didn't want to air too much.

What it comes down to is this:
Although what this brother demonstrated is free speech and expression, he did it with a flag owned by the fraternity. He did it inside of the fraternity house in front of active members and almost the entire pledge/new member class (which I left out earlier).

We have had three new members drop because of this single incident and another considering to drop. That's almost 25% of the pledge class (in a time when we are trying to rebuild ourselves and continue on down a new path - nationalization).

I had a talk with one of the guys who dropped and he said he felt threatend by the incident and that he didn't feel safe being in the fraternity house or around that member and the other one that he fought with. He said he also didn't understand if what he saw was an expression of the fraternity as a whole or as a member acting alone. I told him that it wasn't a fraternal view, rather, the member speaking on behalf of himself.

I often hear the argument of "you represent yourself and your Fraternity?Sorority in many instances/places." Well, this is kind of what happened and we lost new members because of it, good guys that I truly think could have done a lot for the chapter. That in itself should be enough for expulsion, on top of the other offensive actions this brother has taken. I love him as a brother, but he has put a serious bind on us right now and he has done it in the past. Whether it is a racial issue, a free speech issue, etc., I feel that it was "the straw."

After hearing how we lost new members because of it, what do you think should be done, what would your chapter do?

***Keep in mind I am not the kind of person to want to see one of my brothers kicked out, but I personally don't know what else could be accomplished by placing him on yet another suspension***

There is always a breaking point...in every situation.

Blaine

This is so sad
 

Wow, your existance must really suck if you're harboring such negative feelings. I hope you are able to get your life on track.

Don't be an A.B.M! Turn that frown upside down and put on a happy face! :)

Let me review the bidding here.
This guy, who is a French National, has given sufficient previous grief that he has been the subject of suspension, desecrates the US flag, causes three nubies to de-pledge, and is a source of continuing turmoil in the house ...
This is a put-on, right?

Now, if by chance this is on the level, several things occur to me but one is focal. Sometimes, there is a difference between that which is legal and that which is honorable. If the facts are now fully presented then this person would appear to have acted thoroughly dishonorably. For a French National, and let us take into consideration French notions of honor, to have acted in such a manner is provocation of the sort of gravity that our founding fathers would have answered with "an invitation to breakfast" which is an old fashioned way of saying "pistols for two, coffee for one".

I am a bit dismayed and disappointed by the hand wringing appeals to political correctness. This is such an extreme example of continuing ungentlemanly conduct that I really do have doubts that the story is on the level. If it is I would have to conclude that this one should never have received a bid, should have been weeded out during pledgeship, and has no business in the company of gentlemen (of which I assume your house is composed).

As an OBTW, if he is a French National he is here on a visa of some sort. Odd way for a guest to act. The rules of hospitality require rather a lot of patience on the part of the hosts, but from what you describe it sounds as though a consultation with the INS might be in order.

As to Blackwatch, you have chosen the name of a very fine Scottish Regiment, but if you want to "applaud and join in" I would not do so in front of any member of HM's 42nd. Regiment of Foot (The Blackwatch). They tend to be unconcerned about the finer points of political correctness and have an old fashioned attitude towards respect and personal conduct.

As to myself, if you as an American Citizen entitled to the constitutional protections which I swore to uphold when I was commissioned, want to exercise your rights of freedom of expression, so be it - with the understanding that I reserve the right to express myself as well. Perhaps we should discuss this over "breakfast"?