"Forced" prefs?
 

Unlike when I was in school, many Panhellenics now require that a PNM attend the maximum number of parties she can. In other words, if she gets 5 invitations and there will be 5 parties in the next round, she must attend all, even if she doesn't want to go to XYZ's party.

My question: does this extend all the way to pref parties? Can a PNM be forced to attend a pref party for a sorority that she didn't even want to attend earlier events for? And if she suicides the sorority she really wanted because she never planned to attend XYZ's events anyway, can she be penalized?

It totally depends on the school's Panhellenic Council's recruitment policies. At many schools, it does apply to preference too. Penalties for non-attendance to a preference event where there was room in her schedule and for intentional single preference (suicide) can range greatly. The most severe are that the PNM is dropped from recruitment and/or is excluded from snap bids and COR until the next school year.

A PNM shouldn't be penalized for suicide bidding. If a chapter encourages a girl to suicide, this is considered a major infraction of the NPC unanimous agreements.

I know that a few years ago, FSU enforced the maximum number of invites a PNM could attend, even if the PNM did not want to attend the maximum number of parties. (I think)they did away with that a year or so ago and let the true 'mutual decision' process go forth, letting both the PNM and the chapters cut.

B.

[This message has been edited by PnguinTrax (edited August 16, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by PnguinTrax (edited August 16, 2001).]

I know at UF that we have to attend every party, if not we get dropped completely out of rush. Example: Round Two A PNM can only go to 10 parties, if she was invited back to more than ten then she can choose which ones she wants to go back to but she has to back to at least ten. Or say she wasn't invited back to more than ten let's say she was invited back to 8, but she doesn't want to go to all 8 she still has too. If she doesn't she will be disqualified from rush. I personally think it is dumb but I am sure that there is a good reason for it that I just don't know about.

Let's say a rushee goes to parties all week at sororities A, B, C, and D. She loves the first 3, can't stand D. During the week B and C cut her. She goes to prefs at A and D and suicides A since she never wanted D anyway.

A doesn't give her a bid. Are there any schools which would then prevent her from accepting informal bids that B and C want to give her a week later?

Yes. I seem to recall a thread about this last year that named particular schools but I can't recall one at this time.

LSU used to do it but they stopped a few years ago similar to what Barb said earlier.

Interesting question Carnation. I really don't know the rules at my school. I know that if a girl cut my sorority and then didn't get a bid from anyone else I wouldn't want to give her a COB. I am pretty sure everyone in my house feels the same way. If they don't want you why invite them back? They are probably going to be unhappy anyway.
On another note my house did not make quota this yr, but that doesn't mean no one wanted my house. I know that my house did cut girls. They would rather fill the house with quality girls then make sure there is quantity. Of course quota is important and we do want to fill our house, but it isn't worth it if the girls aren't quality. I do know that my house dropped a girl bc they thought she was going to join the house she was a legacy too. She did not want to be in the same house as her sister. So ASA COB and she joined our house. Sorry I think I got off topic, but a lot of girls want to know what houses make quota and who doesn't. I wanted to let them know that a house may not make quota and still be strong.

Here's the link to the story of CutiePie2000's yucky bad forced pref experience.
http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/...ML/000187.html

Like Barbara said, a rushee shouldn't be penalized for suiciding. Especially if there are only 3 or 4 groups on campus. My solution at a school with a lot of groups is, if there are only 2 groups you are interested in and you are "forced" to put down 3, make that last one a sorority that you know NWIH will give you a bid - like the one who cut you after first night or who told you your hair looked like rat tails hanging from your head http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif.

I know that I would never want a girl to end up in my house because she was "forced" into putting my sorority's name on her pref card. I think any sororities who allow that to go on at their campus have very little respect for or faith in themselves.

Lana - sweetie, you have it 110% right. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif

I think at our school if you got invited back, you had to go to the maximum # of parties. For instance after the 1st round, you go back to 7, and if you get invited back to all 10, you have to pick 7. Then, you have to go to 3, and if you get invited to more than 3 or exactly 3, you go to all of them.

If a girl suicides after this, that's fine. BUT, should she not get a bid from the sorority she suicides, she may not COB that sorority in the same semester. This was put into effect to curb the major rush infractions that Penquin talked about earlier.

Well, I think it boils down to keeping options open.

ECU has a 4 day process, so you really don't get the full personality of a chapter. You may not get your first choice, but 2nd and 3rd may be where you realy belong.

I think we allow women to cut if they ask on Pref day, it isn't the best thing, but it is their choice. I graduated last year, it could have changed by now.

Wow, that's wild. At my school a rushee could drop any sorority at any time. If you were invited to 4 theme parties and only wanted to go to 2, you only went to 2.

If you got invited to more than one pref party and only accepted 1 invite, that was considered suiciding, just as if you went to 2 parties and only listed 1 group on your pref card.

We have a lot of new GC members this year--I'd like to hear more discussion about this topic from last year!

That seems ridiculous to make a rushee attend parties she doesn't want to attend. I don't see the point at all.

After my first round of rush, I was lucky to receive return invitations from all 12 houses. But since I was a local girl and had been more or less doing "research" in the two years previous, I knew that I was only interested in three of them so I cut the other nine.

If I would have been forced to go, it would have been not only a waste of my time, but a waste of time for the sisters who have to meet so many rushees in so little time.

someone please help my testosterone addled brain
 

If a pref is for the people you like best...how could it be forced? If you are forced to be around someone, how could you prefer them??:confused:

UF rules...
 

Well, at UF we have to go to all Pref parties we are invited back to up to 3 (the total number of parties). Basically, you cannot decline an invitation from a chapter unless you are invited back to more than the number of parties that round. So, if you're invited to 2 prefs and you only like 1 chapter, you HAVE to go to both. Even if you are invited to 4 chapters for prefs, you can release one, but have to go to the other 3 even if you would only consider joining one of those chapters.

The only reason I could potentially see this being a decent rule is at competitive Rush type schools. For example, if I go to 15 parties round 1, decide I am interested in 8 of those chapters but somehow, 5 I'm interested in do not extend an invitation to me, I'm down to 3 potential chapters but maybe were invited back to 10 total. I would have to go to all 10 in order to get to go to my fav. 3. Maybe by round 3 I'm released from those 3 chapters, but there's 3 other chapters that love me. In this case, your Rush would be over because you don't have any chapters to go back to, where with the mandatory attendance rule will keep you in Rush, and maybe you'll realize you really feel at home at ABC chapter by the end of Prefs, but you wouldn't have considered them otherwise.

I know that seems confusing and I think I explained it as best as I could. Comments? Questions?

For the record, I think at UF, it's a decent rule based on the way Rush tends to work here.

Tara

I have a Phi Mu castle...

Tara, since UF makes rushees go to prefs they may not want to, are the rushees penalized if they suicide?

I don't know, it seems like you'd end up with a lot of unhappy girls if they didn't get their first choice because their second and third choices might be what they think of as no-way-in-hell groups. And the depledge rate would be astronomical!

Our panhellenic refers to a suicide bid as an "intentional single reference," which is in the Guide to the Greeks. It says that women who do this significantly reduce their chances of receiving a bid to join a sorority. So it's a valid option. I don't think the girls have to worry about anything besides the risk, but of course if they drop a sorority they are not allowed to get a snap bid from that sorority later on.

The pledge retention rates are pretty good, it seems. Most (I think maybe 3/4. Not sure, really. Help, PhiMuNursie?) of girls get bids, and most houses have big pledge classes. There aren't that many unhappy girls...I've met some who didn't get their first choices but you'd never guess it b/c they're so happy now. I think it's because all the houses are so large that you find someone you love and before you know it you love the whole house.

well...
 

Let's see if I remember right. Quota was around 59 last year. Times 15 chapters is about 885 or 900 say. I think there was about 1400 girls going through Rush, so if you consider the amount that dropped out, a good amount got bids. Now as far as retention goes...it varies every year. Sometimes it works out really well and like ROWDYsister said so many girls that didn't get their first choice try out their second or third and end up happy as ever. UF is really big on encouraging girls to try out the chapter they get a bid from, which helps with retention because there's so many people encouraging you to stick with it. I know two years ago retention rates were sketchy for all the chapters, last year I think they were better though.

But to answer your question Carnation, they don't penalize you if you suicide. Girls who chose to go that route know from the beginning they don't want a bid from any other chapter, so they know the downfall from the beginning.

ROWDYsister, I think it was if a chapter releases you they won't snap bid you, but if you release them they are still able to. Why a chapter would extend a bid to someone who declined an invitation I don't know, but I thought it was based on chapter declining to invite you back as far as snap bids go. Maybe I'm wrong...I'm old as far as Rush goes. :)

Tara
I have a Phi Mu castle...

Re: "Forced" prefs?
 

Carnation, you ask "Can a PNM be forced to attend a pref party for a sorority that she didn't even want to attend earlier events for?". My personal experience is YES YES YES.

This happened to me, because at my school, the PNMs (i.e. rushees) were not allowed to cut groups. The groups on the other hand could cut PNMs.
So I went to one PREF (A) that I wanted and one that I DID NOT (B). (You can have a maximum of 2 pref parties.).

When I filled out my Bid Card, I put down A, C, D and E. I left off B. (Sidebar: You could fill in 4 choices, even though you only went to a max of 2 Pref Parties. ) I handed in my Bid Card and one of the Rho Chi's said, "Did you put down your 2 parties from tonight?" I said, "No, I put down my Dinner (Group A) and 3 others. My Dessert group is not on there".
She then took my Bid Card, tossed it and said that I must write down 4 groups, of which my Dinner (A) AND Dessert (B) must be on there. (I didn't want to suicide, but I definitely did not want Group B, which is why I had put down A, C, D and E).

So, she strong-armed me into putting B on my Bid Card.
Anyhow, because B was on my Bid Card, that is where I was bid.
In tears, I reluctantly accepted the bid, and then dropped out within 2 days. I was never so much as "ribbon pledged".....nothing.

Thankfully, it worked out for me 11 years later (I'm a happy alumna initiate), but I am sad that I was denied the collegiate experience of being in a group that I would have be thrilled to be a member of.

Anyhow....that's my story. And thanks to 33girl for putting up the link to my dreadful rush experience.
The link didn't seem to work, but I have found it for you all.
http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...&threadid=2285

and also:
http://greekchat.com/gcforums/showth...threadid=14204


I hope that no one has to go through what I did. It was absolutely devastating.

One of my friends rushed at U of Oklahoma, and she said that she was required to go to every party she was invited to, and they were also STRONGLY encouraged to list EVERY house they went to on pref day (they made it seem like if they didnt, that they wouldnt get ANY house, guaranteed). then, a lot of the girls that she rushed with were unhappy with the houses they ended up getting, but bc they had signed something (pledge cards or bid cards maybe?) they couldnt rush again for a whole YEAR!!!

As I stated before, my school does require you to go to the # of parties for the round. For prefs, if you get invited to more than three, you cut down to three. If you get invited to 2, you go to both, whether you like em or not. If you don't, it's considered "breaking rush", and you are not eligible then to receive a bid from formal recruitment. I don't know why exactly it's done, with the exception of encouraging women to look at all of their choices before making a decision. As with so many stories we've seen on here, a woman goes through recruitment, and ends up getting an invite back to a place where she doesn't feel she fits in and quits recruitment. Unfortunately, reputation rumors and talk often influence the process, and the weaker sororities end up paying the price.

When it comes to filling out a bid card, if a woman suicides, that's fine, but if she doesn't get the bid, she can't COB that group for a semester. It's done to eliminate dirty rush in the first place. And if the girl loves the sorority enough to wait a semester, then I guess that's ok. Something that many Rho Chis don't tell you is that you can put down any sorority on your bid card. For instance, let's go with the A, B, C, D example. You love A, B, and C, but hate D. For prefs, you go to A & D, and were cut C & B prior. When you go to fill our your pref card, you don't have to put D down. You can put A B and C. On top of not suiciding and putting yourself in an awkward position, you allow the other sororities to know that even though they cut you for prefs, you're still interested in their sorority, and THAT I think is a good thing.

The scenario you are asking about DID happen to me. PNMs go to 2 parties on Pref night, and I only got invited by 2 sororities - one that I really wanted, and one that I would have rather not gone Greek than joined. In fact, I had cut them earlier in the week and didn't even go to the second round at that house. But unfortunately for them, their numbers are WAAAAAY down and they basically invite back everyone. So for the third round, they invited me back even though I had cut them. Well, that round, you go to 3 parties, and only 3 sororities invited me back, including them.

I do admit, I was pretty heartbroken about having to go to a Pref I didn't want to go to. So I ended up suiciding. It worked out well and I am in the organization I wanted, so I suppose in that case I was not penalized for suidiciding. If I had suicided and not gotten a bid from my desired sorority, the other one probably still would have tried to snap bid me, once again b/c their numbers are down and they snap bid every girl who does not get a bid through formal recruitment. (This organization is in danger of losing their charter if they don't get numbers up, so they are justified in their actions I guess.)

When I told my Rho Chi that I was going to suicide, she tried to convince me not to. She said I ran the risk of not getting a bid at all, and that sometimes it makes you look bad to the sorority you want to suicide. That I have found is not true, at least for my organization, b/c the only person who may know if a girl suicided is our recruitment chair and our general advisor.

My advice to any girl put in this similar situation to do what you feel would make you the happiest. But if you do go to a pref that you don't want to go to, at least hear those girls out, give them a chance, and above all be polite. I am now friends with several of the girls in the sorority I didn't want to join, but if I had been rude in any way, they may still hold a grudge to this day. (And ironically - I know this sounds bad - but the girl who took me through Pref there ended up supplying me with a fake ID a year and a half down the road.) I guess to sum up, suicide if you want, but try not to burn any bridges.

At the University of Michigan-Flint you are not "forced" to attend all the preference parties that you are invited to. We only had three sororities so basically all of the Rushee's went to the event of their choice sorority. They were encouraged to go to the other two events (if invited) to thank them for the invitation. There have been girls who stayed with us all night.

We I rushed there were 4 sororities on campus and and I received 4 invites to Preference Night. Preference Night was a couple of hours and I spent way over an hour in my 1st choice sorority and then went to the other 3 to say thanks for the invite. If you don't show up in the 1st or 2nd group of girls each sorority pretty much knows that you are not interested in them. The last sorority I went to during Pref Night was awful...all the girls were crying because NO girls came to their room until the end. They got one girl that rush and now they are no longer on campus :(

I can see requiring girls to go to as many pref parties as possible. True, there are some girls who know exactly where they want to go (and for the right reasons), but how much is it really going to hurt you to make nice during the 45 minutes of some other chapter's party? You can make it clear to the sisters you aren't truly interested.

But there are a lot of girls who aren't very open-minded or still have an idea that they "need" to be in the pretty/popular chapter and just need to get to know the girls in other houses better because they aren't going to ever be high enough on their first-choice chapter's bid list. I've seen girls change their mind about which chapter to join after preference.

Still, I don't think that's any excuse for making a PNM then go and put any chapter down on her bid card. Putting a chapter on your bid card is saying, "I'm willing to be a member here." If a girl doesn't want to join chapter X, whether her reasons are good or bad, all that will happen is she will get a bid she doesn't want and be non-Greek for a year. And we hope it doesn't sour her on Greek life so much she never joins!

:mad: Grr. Various PNMs have called here for the past 2 weeks, telling me how their rush experiences are going and FIVE have told me that they've been forced to go to prefs where they didn't want to join, didn't want to even go to a second party there. This is crap! If someone doesn't want to be at your second, third, etc. party, why the heck would they want to be at your pref?

And yet all these girls--at 4 different schools-- were told by their recruitment counselors that they had to go or be ineligible for snap bids if they didn't. They were told that the same would happen if they suicided to finally get rid of the chapter they'd never wanted.

What is this, Panhellenic's method of attempting to beef up the smaller groups? It really upset the girls it happened to and it also hurt the sororities they didn't want to go to because these groups really thought the girls wanted them and had huge pref parties and then had practically no new members on Bid Day.

I can see requiring PNMs to attend the max number of parties for a couple of days but this forced pref business stinks.

What they do at USC...
 

There are 9 sororities here. A PNM goes to four the first day, and five the next day.

Through mutual elimination 9 is narrowed to 6 (or less).

Then to 4.

Then to two which is preference.

Then one.

It is a rule that a PNM must go to all of her "parties" if she wishes to recieve a bid overall. If she misses even one, she is eliminated from rush and is not allowed to recieve a bid for one full year, so no COBing. This means going to the ones she does not care for. Even at preference.

However, I think USC takes it a little too far in that if a sorority extends a bid to you, you MUST accept it. Maybe this is the same everywhere else. If you don't you are not allowed to COB that year and must wait a year to rush again. So, if a PNM is in love with ABC and can't stand XYZ, she must accept the bid for XYZ.

There's even a process in that if the PNM ranks ABC one and XYZ two, but ABC ranks her in the second group and XYZ ranks her in the first group, then she will join XYZ despite her obvious preference to ABC.

Re: What they do at USC...
 

That's standard practice, actually. Once you fill out and sign a preference card, if you receive a bid, you are bound to that sorority for one year. You don't have to pledge, but you can't participate in any other org's COB events - you have to wait and either go through formal recruitment again the next year, or COB at some point after the one-year period is up.

In your scenario, the PNM might want to suicide ABC, and if she doesn't match she can then go to ABC's COB events (or DEF's or GHI's - anyone who's holding COB rush).

Wait I thought she could be offered one, but if she accepts and then "drops", she is bound for one calendar year....

Sigmagrrl that is how it works at my school.
However my school does things a little different then how a lot of these bigger schools have mentioned it.

Here's how it works at my small school (8800 people/ 2 National Sororities)

We have our first 3 nights of recruitment were PNMs must attend both parties. (No cuts before pref)
Then each sorority invites PNMs to their pref.
She may either be invited to one party, two parties, or no parties :(
At that time she picks up her pref invite she then decides (based on her invites) where she will be going later that night. So if she is invited to both she can choose to only go to one if she wants.
Then afterwards this is where I'm sure you all are like, yikes scary to only have two sororities on campus: she can single intentionally bid and just write down one, or she can put both down. Either A,B or B,A or she can put neither group.

Our problem on our campus is most PNMs end up not wanting her second choice. Let's say she put A first but got B. if she declines B then she can't participate in A's COB and has an open bid to B for one calendar year.
We also get a lot of suicides here since there are only two. but then that means if A gets quota but hasn't filled total they are notified of who just wrote down A and are able to COB them in two weeks. (B may also COB them, but that never happens..)

Sorry if its confusing but I like the small school system.
But like I said we get lots of suicides! (ssssh don't tell but, I was one along with my whole new member class except for maybe two of us.
;) )

oh yea edited to add, if someone suicides and only puts A but B has them on their bid list, our Panhellenic Advisor will call them that night and ask if they would like to go with B. This does happen sometimes and since its done over the phone that night no one ever knows except the girl who gets the phone call. She can also still refuse B's bid if she wants. No one is ever required to take a Bid at my school...well except if she signs B on her card and gets a bid to B then she has the calendar rule on her.)

This is my understanding of how it should work.

Formal Recruitment: You attend however many pref parties, then you fill out your pref card and sign it. Signing your pref card indicates that you agree to accept a bid from any sorority that you list. If you receive a bid to a group you listed but don't like, you do not have to pledge, but you cannot pledge any other group for 1 calendar year. You can participate in formal rush the next year or in COB rush any time after the one-year period is up.

Snap Bids: If you receive a snap bid at the end of formal rush, from a sorority that was not listed on your pref card, you don't have to accept it. If you don't accept it, the one-year rule does not apply and you can do COB. If you do accept, pledge, then depledge, you are bound to that group for 1 year (I believe it's from the date you pledge, so you'd be able to do FR again the next year).

Informal Recruitment: If you receive a bid after participating in informal recruitment, you don't have to accept it. Again, if you don't accept, the one-year rule does not apply. If you pledge then depledge, you're bound for a year.

This is my understanding, too. I can fully understand making the pnms accept the maximum number of parties - for those of you who doubt the effectiveness of this, one of the happiest New Members on GreekChat had originally cut the sorority to which she has now pledged!

But forcing someone to sign a bid card is absolutely wrong. The pnm should always have the option of accepting no bids, bids only from the groups she lists, or suiciding.

This is how it works at my school, which is why I'm still confused....

The year before I went through recruitment, a girl joined my sorority (she's in the bid day picture and everything), but then decided she didn't want to be in our chapter, so she withdrew from new member program. After the summer, we come back and she accepts a bid from XYZ sorority. At our school, if you sign your bid card, that's a binding contract (and we are supposed to put down the two parties we go to for pref, but I don't think they bully us into it). If you miss a party (but have a valid excuse as to why you missed it: class, driving 3 hours to another university to take an exam;), etc) then the sororities are not supposed to punish you for missing the party...unfortunately, that did happen to me :( but in the long run it was better that they did because I found my home in a chapter I didn't even really have on my radar when I began recruitment!

Here's a thread I referred to earlier although I still think there may be another one I started on the same subject later. I am still anti-forced pref parties. in case PH thinks they hugely benefit the smaller groups, I remember the story of one group that had 2 full pref parties on Pref Night (the school required that PNMs go to all prefs they were invited to or be dismissed from recruitment) but no one ran to them on Bid Day. Talk about depressing, to say the least.

What happens in that case is that the PNM just suicides and then it's a roll of the dice. If they made the list for the other group, they are in. If they didn't, well, there you go. I guess they felt it was better to be in no group at all....

No one? Literally no one? Surely this is a bit of hyperbole. Even on the most rigidly tiered campi I've advised and observed, some girls do show up for bid day. As for the ones who don't, they need to get over themselves because they never seem to believe they would not have received a bid at all if that one undesirable chapter hadn't been in their preference equation.

Would you prefer that the undesirable chapter not have any preference parties at all so those poor darlings won't have to endure another moment of being forced to attend their parties?

Literally no one. And no one showed up the next year or the next either. I knew one of the sisters and she told me, plus I heard stories about it for years.

I think it hurt them worse than the rushees who had to go to the parties because they put out all that effort for nothing and then had to stand out there waiting for a new member class who never came. If the PNMs hadn't been made to attend all prefs, the chapter might have had some advance warning because in the south, there are many girls who are too nice to show their displeasure by crying or gritting their teeth at the parties. They just go back to the computer and SIP.

That's awful!

I went to a small school which only had 3 sororities (Missouri S&T), but they used to take a middle ground on this. You had to attend all parties up until pref, but you could decline any pref invitation you received. You could attend pref at all 3 if you were invited to all 3 or you could attend pref at just one, even if you were invited to all three. We were given a schedule to tell us what time to be at each house. IRC, we met a Rho Chi near the house and went in as a group.

I don't see how it would be any better if nobody showed up for their pref party.

Really, it does not kill a young woman to go somewhere, eat some mini cupcakes and drink spritzer water, and make small talk for an hour before/after going to the pref party at the chapter they really want. I don't think that women should be forced to list a chapter she doesn't want on her bid card, but going to pref, especially when you are dressed up and all that anyway, is simply the polite thing to do.

I think that they were hurt worse by the full pref parties because some of the girls had indeed put them on the bid card and the chapter had a list of pledges that they were supposed to get and then no one showed up. The PNMs must have looked at their bids and left.

I disagree. Nobody wanting to join your chapter is heartbreaking, whether it means that you have empty prefs or that you don't make quota. When women don't have to go to prefs, though, women who do like your chapter look around and see that the room is empty, and second-guess themselves.