Something needs to change
 

When recruitment ends and the advice freely being given out is, "Nobody likes their house at first; you'll learn to like it" I feel like something has to change.

My daughter is contemplating de-pledging. So are many of her friends. She's talked to about a dozen girls she was friends with going into rush. Two got into sororities they actually wanted. The other ~10 got bids for houses they didn't like. We're not talking 2nd choices; we're talking houses that were low on the pref lists after the first two rounds. One of her friends has to de-pledge because she got a bid for one of the most expensive sororities - and she can't afford it. (It's over $1000/year more than the one my daughter is in.)

I blame variable quota and RFM. Girls are dropped left and right early on, and are forbidden from dropping houses (they can only rank) which is how you end up with girls in houses they can't afford. Then you have situations like one of D's friends who was dropped by all the houses except ABC because her sister was an ABC at the school. No one asked her if she liked her sister and wanted to be in the same sorority with her. (The answer would have been "no.") It's only the second year of using this combo and I've got to question whether it's the right thing to be doing. I feel like the effort to even house sizes and maximize the number of bids given out is creating artificial groupings of girls who have surviving the process as the sole thing they have in common.

I'm wondering if anyone else involved with a school that uses variable quota and RFM has seen problems with retention?

First off: if you can't afford the most expensive chapter, you shouldn't rush. Also know that different chapters handle financial matters differently. Some have one big fee that covers everything, some have individual fees for formal and such.

As far as RFM being the bad guy...say girls could drop whoever they want. Eventually sororities would close because of low numbers. There would be fewer and fewer groups until there were 3 chapters of 1000 or something ridiculous.

And you know what? A lot of those girls would have probably ended up in the same place even WITHOUT RFM. The difference is, they would have been strung along until pref night by a sorority that in reality they had zero chance of being asked to join. If you find that preferable, we can get rid of RFM tomorrow.

That seems awfully harsh. Especially when some chapters have dues that are over $4000/year and don't include living in the house. Why can't affordability be part of the pref/selection criteria? When my daughter signed up for recruitment (and paid over $100 to do so), neither one of us had any idea what the dues were for chapters at the school she is attending. There's a huge range in dues/mandatory fees, too.

Back when I was in college, each of the sororities on my campus had their own personality. Recruitment really felt like it was a matching process. More social girls were attracted to one house, another had a much more artsy flair, one was more academic, etc. Houses might evolve, and reputations changed over time, but they were not just randomized groups of girls having to get along. No upper classmen were telling us that "nobody likes their sorority at first." like they are telling my daughter and her friends. And it's not like they all wanted the same house and are disappointed, they all had different favorites.

Bid Day should be more joyful than it is. (I watched a video of one of the other houses on her campus on Bid Day where the recruitment chair is reading the list of bids to actives and there aren't a lot of smiles and cheers. It's a lot of stone faces, questioning looks and a few "who?" are visible. Dissatisfaction is on both sides.)

Seven of my daughters have rushed, and I have mixed feelings about RFM. On the one hand, more girls are getting bids and the stronger groups are being forced to drop girls earlier whom they would've strung along until pref parties back in the day. These girls didn't get bids and they never knew what hit them because the sororities had seemed to show interest in them.

On the other hand, my main memory of rush back in the day is that quota was set early, which meant that the stronger groups had huge quotas and pledge classes and the others often folded, one by one. I would never want that again.

That is quite surprising, that someone posted a video of that. Bear in mind those actives are exhausted and sleep deprived, just for starters. I wouldn't go so far as to say "dissatisfaction is on both sides", but that's my experience based on decades of volunteering. I don't remember cheers or much energy at all. Everyone was wiped out.

Not sure what campus your daughter is at. At many large campuses (Alabama, Arizona come to mind and I know there are many others) there is a publication which lists, among other things, the typical costs for each chapter. The Arizona publication is called "The Bond". I saw the one for Alabama and was impressed.

I am a firm believer in publishing transparent costs ahead of time -- in a PNM guidebook, on the campus Panhellenic website, etc. No one benefits if a new member drops because they can't afford the fees. It's also in everyone's best interest to be fairly close/competitive with costs.

I'm not sure it's all RFM or variable quota -- I think there is a generational issue with seeing fabulous over-done recruitment videos and having fairy tale expectations, and tent talk that's gone beyond the tent to website rankings and vitriol. Those weren't around when I was in school. I agree that instead of everyone finding their niche/peeps, there does seem to be a more widespread idealization of wanting the "popular, top tier group." Because if you're not that, your chapter is ripe for getting scorned online. And PNMs check that out. That's so sad.

My husband is a teacher and I am a professor and we have talked about the general air of "cater to me" that seems commonplace now. One of our international council members is the Dean of Students at Ole Miss; she gave an excellent talk at our March facilities conference about today's student and the need to develop "grit." AGDee heard the same talk at Alpha Gamma Delta's convention this summer.

I would love to see something like this at every school. It's kinda hush-hush on my daughter's campus. They were shown a sheet during rush, but were not allowed to keep a copy of it or even study it for a long time. We talked after every round and she couldn't remember a single figure on that sheet on the day she was shown it. One of the houses did take to asking questions about father's occupation, whether or not the student had a car on campus, and if so, what type. I'm guessing that was to weed out girls that they thought couldn't afford their dues.

The fees at this school run way above national average. My daughter's bill for first semester (not living in the house) is just a tiny bit shy of $2000. Others are over $2500. They must eat meals at the house, but cannot change the campus meal plan they've bought that's required when living in the dorms. We're in serious "Is it worth it?" discussions right now. If she really liked the house, rather than just a handful of girls in her pledge class, I think we wouldn't be questioning it so much.

Is this an SEC school?

I think there are a lot of people asking the "is it worth it?" question. College is expensive, student loans are a burden, and your question is one I'm hearing more often.

In my experience, it is absolutely worth it. But you have to be in it for a while before you feel and understand the true worth.

Hmmmmmmm.....

I thought that was considered hazing.

What she means is that the actives aren't getting enough sleep - up early to get ready, a full day of parties followed by member selection, practice for the next round, dinner, socializing with their sisters (add a dash of Netflix and social media surfing but not posting) and finally to bed only to do it all again the following day.

What she does not mean is that someone is depriving or forbidding these women from going to bed. That would be hazing.

^^^ thanks!

NerdyGreek, I am truly sad that your daughter hasn't found "her people" yet in her chapter.

I attended college on a campus that did not use RFM until the possibly 2008 or so and it was not good prior to that. My grand(little)daughter in my chapter decided to be a recruitment counselor one year because all of our recruitment workshops were held at the same time as another one of her campus groups rehearsed. She called me (even though she wasn't supposed to) beside herself because two of her PMNs had gone to two preference at chapters who notoriously over invited women to preference. These chapters would only take 35 women pledge classes but yet our school allowed them to invite 350 women to reference. In both of these cases, she did not see either PNM fitting into those chapters and had a sinking feeling she would miss our Bid Night because she would be consoling those crushed PNMs. And she was right. She ended up spending most of the night consoling not only those two but two more women who did not match at pref because they were too far down on both chapters' bid lists. This was commonplace at my campus prior to RFM. After RFM, those women have chapters who really wanted them in their chapter and not just wanted them there to fill up a room to look more popular. With RFM, those two women would have been made quota additions to one of the two chapters they attended. I know you may not see a whole lot of upside with RFM right now, but I lived it and I can tell you RMF works. There is no guarantee that your daughter would have bonded with any of the other chapters better than the one she joined. Strong recruiting groups have a way of making every PNM feel special.

Well said.

How large were the chapters at your school?

Also re costs, we had a mom on here a few years back who basically wanted to know how her daughter could opt out of the more expensive chapters. The point is you (you = who ever is paying, be it parents or student) can't say "well, I just won't like the expensive chapter." Rush doesn't work that way.

This was happening far before RFM came out. Some sororities thought, "Why waste our time on a girl whom we figure is pledging her sister's group?"

Me neither. I graduated right before RFM was put in place. From rushing my freshman year until graduation, my campus lost 3 chapters and almost a 4th due to low numbers. My pledge class had 70ish girls and the chapter that folded that year plesdged something like 5. A pretty large percentage of pnms were left bidless at the end of the week. The disparity was tremendous and it weakened the entire Greek system.

The campus' solution was to give up on the dying chapters and start fresh with new colonies. One chapter colonized my junior year. The campus has now brought on 3 more chapters over the last 18 years. Under RFM, every chapter is healthy and even that 4th chapter that has struggled for 18 years has seen its membership grow significantly. They still rarely make quota but they're missing it by 5-10 not by 40-50, and they have the support of Panhellenic.

I think the bolded is ridiculous. If a PNM could afford, say, 9 of the 10 chapters, why not rush? Odds are she won't end up in the expensive one. If she does, she can cross that bridge when she gets there.

Another issue is that PNMs tend to think they have control during recruitment.The bottom line is that your choices are limited by the chapters themselves. They invite the PNM; The PNM does not select the chapters they want to visit. Seriously, PNMs really need to understand this. You cannot drop a group. They drop you. So be happy to receive whatever invitations you receive and go to the party with a smile on your face. I don't mean to be harsh, but it's reality. If you'd rather not be Greek than join any of the choices you have, drop out.

Nerdy Greek, I know exactly what campus you are talking about. Bid day was 1 short week ago. ONE FRIGGING WEEK.

If you, your daughter or her friends are already questioning the chapter that she pledged, I don't even know what to say. It takes longer than that to get to know people in a chapter of 400 girls. It takes longer than that to develop friendships and bonds. She doesn't even know their names yet and she doesn't like them or thinks they have nothing in common with her? Did these girls think closeness just happened magically?

Your daughter had choices to make. In the end after Pref, she had the choice to accept a bid and sign the MRABA, knowing the chapters that wanted her or not sign it. Now her choice is this:

1. quit and remain without a sorority experience at her current University. She can always transfer to another University and try again, right?

2. work to make friends in her chapter and enjoy the experience.

Don't even start asking about rushing again next year as a sophomore who quit her sorority. Ain't gonna happen on this campus. If she is pining for a chapter that she did not get a bid from, that is a real shame because she is turning her back on the chapter that wanted her.

I think what surprises me the most about this thread is that young women are going through recruitment without understanding the costs on that particular campus. How is that not public knowledge? If money is a potential issue and the desire to be Greek is strong, I would think that would be part of the decision-making process in choosing a college/university.

Yes,KSU,you started a great thread about this a while back. Too bad most PNMs don't read it or think it doesn't apply to them.

Many of us have said in other threads that we really didn't "feel it" until we lived in the house-for me it was my sophomore year.

I apologize if I sound harsh ( I am trying to be realistic), but it is the rare freshman PNM who de-pledges and re-rushes to a "higher" tier sorority the next year.

It is public. Like with GPA requirements, Ole Miss details not only the cost range of sorority membership, but also the meal plan situation in the FAQs on their recruitment site. It was up there long before the semester began: http://panhellenic.olemiss.edu/faq-b-2/

Perhaps if these young women would stop wasting their time complaining and actually try to get to know some of the 400 or so other members of their chapter, they would realize that they actually do have things in common with them.

*Why do I get the feeling mom hasn't had any sorority involvement since her college years?

If it's the video I saw, it was at a school that just finished rushing while going to classes every day. Talk about exhausting and stressful! What I saw were girls listening closely and likely trying to figure out who the new pledges are. This sorority has 400 members so it's not like every member would know every pledge. I remember when I was an active and heard the list called out that I was trying to remember faces and such. So no, I would not have looked perky the entire time. And yes, girls will have looks of disappointment. They work very hard to win girls over and it is very disappointing when they pledge elsewhere. I was just going through a college yearbook and saw four girls that my chapter "lost" (they preffed us and one other) and I well remembered how bummed several of us were. That's natural!

I do support RFM because I saw girls held onto untiL pref and then get released. With RFM girls get released early enough to seriously consider another house. I had friends go through pre-RFM scenario and their pain and shock was awful.

And I echo giving the house more than a few weeks. There are 400 girls in houses at Ole Miss (I'm pretty sure this is where your daughter is) and one can't possibly have a sense this soon. Some girls do, but not all. And don't even think about re-rushing as a sophomore. Rarely ever successful plus many chapters have a "once cut, always cut" policy which means she would be cut again.

RFM
 

I remember on my campus, which had 4 chapters, women could get invited back to all 4 during the first invite round for Philanthropy, then 3 to Sisterhood/Skits, then 2 for Pref. Chapters invited however many they wanted for Pref. Getting cut from both was a real thing. I knew MANY women who were so excited to get invited back to the "popular" chapters, had stars in their eyes, were already mentally picking out dorm decor and dating a handsome fraternity guy (still mentally)- because a bid to one of these two chapters opened up doors for the members. Only to get "the call" on Bid Day morning to not come to the Student Union. Or getting a late night call about a "snap bid" to the chapter they had been glad to see off their list. So, while 2 of the chapters stayed at 90 members, and one of them hovered around 75-80, the 4th chapter struggled with 50 or so members. Until it closed.

I think that with RFM, more women would have gone back to the chapter, more women would have ended up joining it, and gradually their reputation could have evolved. Instead........ :(

If a woman has joined a chapter of 400 and can't find any friends, the issue is her- her perception, her desires, what she is looking for....there is no way a woman honestly cannot find a core group of like-minded women in a pool of 400 unless she is deliberately closing herself off from opportunity. That's just crazy.

And, OP, no one here is saying that NO ONE likes their chapter at first. We're just saying that the magical moments that happened in Recruitment now give way to tired girls who just want to sleep, catch up on school work so they don't end up on Probation, and maybe try to get to know the new women in their "free time." We're saying that once the reality of sorority membership arrives, it's not all squeals, and chants and glitter. It's real women getting to know one another, hopefully in a meaningful way. To feel truly a part of the organization (notice I didn't say apart!!!) takes time. Time to assimilate, to learn, to bond, to get used to seeing yourself in letters and incorporating what they mean into your own persona. It takes TIME. And 2 weeks is NOT enough time. I think that even the New Member period is too short for many women to have "that feeling." That's why many women say that they didn't feel truly bonded to the sorority until they lived in the house, and being immersed in the sorority was part of their day to day lives.

You can say up and down that you won't fall in love with the costliest chapter, but what if you do, and it's mutual, and you get a bid only to have to drop out because you can't afford it?

And too, it's not always the most popular/oldest-most established/biggest house chapter that ends up being the costliest.

IMO this is the kind of "it'll never happen to me" that does happen. If that makes me overly cautious, so be it.

Eta: And if for some reason the costs are not on the website or somewhere easily accessible, get on the horn to the Greek life office and ask. BEFORE rush week.

The costs are published on the Ole Miss web site well in advance. It is given as a range, and no costs are listed specifically per chapter. Why? Because some chapters choose to report only the bare minimum, without disclosing additional costs that are required during the year. Some costs, like formals, event T shirts, and pictures are all considered optional in some chapters, not in others.

From the Ole Miss Panhellenic FAQ:

Why is it so expensive to join a sorority? Where is the money going?

Sororities have provided their financial obligations in ranges. Please note the following: These are only ranges and may not include all associated costs for each sorority. Dues are subject to change. As prospective members, students need to talk with active members during recruitment events to learn more, especially when payments are due following Bid Day.

In House Member Dues Per Semester $2,900-$4,300
Out of House Member Dues Per Semester $1,550-$2,200
New Member Dues: Fall Semester $1,240-$2,500
New Member Dues: Spring Semester $1,530-$2,200

One of the issues is that they don't fully disclose costs during recruitment. PNMs are prohibited from talking to members outside of rush, and they're not getting the information during the parties either.

I felt a connection to my sorority when I pledged. While I wasn't best friends with all of my sisters (and downright despised one of them), I was close with many, many of them. These are women that I still see and consider my friends. My daughter doesn't see those same bonds of sisterhood among even the upperclassmen. One of the sisters told her she loves hanging out at the house because she's always meeting new sisters she hasn't met before, which she didn't think sounded like such a good thing. How can you consider it a sisterhood when you haven't even met everyone?!

Maybe the issue is mega chapters that are bigger than a lot of high school graduating classes. I found "my people" in my graduating class, but despite sharing a lot of common experiences, I feel absolutely no connection to all the other graduates of my high school the same year. It starts to feel like random groups of people put together.

The information on costs is available BEFORE recruitment. No need to wait & wonder during recruitment.

Of course she doesn't feel a sisterhood yet. Of course, she hasn't officially met everyone yet. IT HAS BEEN ONE WEEK, for God's sake. :eek: She knows next to nothing about those girls. She has no idea what their relationships are. If she is not willing to give it some time and put in some effort, then perhaps sorority membership is not the right place for her.

The reason we tell girls they will eventually be happy, if they want to be, is because college freshmen are super special snowflakes who can't accept that this is a process of making friends, not their ascension to royalty. Nobody is going to bow and scrape at their feet. When rush is over there is a very real sense that all the love that was showered on them for the last week is gone. So the other house, their second choice (or their first choice if they got their second, or that house that dropped them after day one) would have been way better because the girls there would still be screaming and crying whenever they approach the door. Rush isn't real so there is a transition as these girls adapt to real college life and sorority membership.

Sorority membership is a club. It's a great club with lifetime engagement. The connections, the opportunity, the leadership, the fun, the boys, all of it. It's fun. But it's a CLUB. There is way too much pressure put on the process. If they would just relax, accept the (admittedly lousy) process for what it is, an incredibly convoluted way to make friends and join a club, maybe that pressure to instantly have the most spectacular never-ending moment of their lives would ease the eff up.

One way to look at this is like someone who is thinking about taking up golf --

1. Can she afford it?

2. Does she have time to devote to it?

3. Does she really want to do it?

Unless each question can be answered with an unqualified and enthusiastic yes, then don't get involved with either golf or a social sorority. If your child really wants a sorority experience, then (like a golfer) she will enjoy and have fun at any club she joins.

I don't have any experience with being in a large SEC-type chapter. My entire chapter was the size of one pledge class there. Personally, I would not find the huge chapters to my liking at all, but that's because I like smaller and more manageable things. It's the same reason I would never attend a large church with multiple services or live in a big city. It feels incredibly impersonal to me. So in that sense, even though people will say you can find your people in a large sorority (and that is probably true enough), it doesn't mean that's the best fit for everyone.

Your daughter has to decide what's most important to her. If she likes her school and she wants to be Greek, then she needs to get on with it and make the most of the chapter she's in. If she wants a different Greek experience and she can find that at a different school with a smaller Greek system, then that's fine too. She can transfer and rush again next year.

I do disagree with the idea that a sorority is just a club. Clubs generally don't live together, etc. A positive sorority experience can make a big difference in a person's college experience. It did for me.

And I'll also say this. Those fees are ridiculous. I'm glad ours were reasonable or I would have missed out on sorority life.

Running a mega-chapter is costly, especially one with housing. Very, very expensive. In addition, the actives expect the social aspects of membership that are highlighted in those (shallow) videos. A t-shirt for everything, too. And clothes, shoes, jewelry. Oh, okay, you guys know where I'm going with this.

I don't get it, myself. It's definitely a completely different ball game than when I was an active (God was a baby when I was in college).

Hell, college is ridiculously expensive!

Stating the obvious: once more I think this particular thread comes down to the tier system. Would we be reading and discussing this if the OP's daughter (and ten of her friends) had gotten into "better" tiered chapters that they "actually wanted"? Or if there was a clear understanding about RFM and the genuine effort to establish parity across chapter sizes? There is a thought-provoking opinion piece in the NYTimes that hit home with me, and I see its relevance to sorority recruitment and these unhappy pnms and moms. Take the time to read it and think about the implications, if you're so inclined.

NerdyGreek -

Aside from Greek life, how is your daughter liking the school itself?

If she loves it and the thing that she isn't liking is her sorority experience, she should probably cut her losses and move on and find a smaller, more intimate group she'll like better. Mega chapters at that school are not going away anytime soon.

But if she was relying on sorority to help her feel more comfortable at the school because she can't get acclimated, maybe she should think about transferring.

Before rush, she loved it. She was hanging out with girls in her dorm, had made friends with students who are children of alum and thus had a tent to hang out at before football games.

She wanted to drop out of recruitment after the first two rounds. I told her I thought it was a good idea (despite my love of being Greek, and her having heard repeatedly about it). But her friends talked her into sticking with it. It was surprising as she was worried about the number of houses she had left, and was finding out most of these girls had even fewer choices (some were down to only one choice after the first two rounds. Once I heard that, I talked to her about suggesting that they all drop out. They'd have each other. In the end, I think they all pledged somewhere, but it sounds like it's fear of not being able to have a social life that motivated a lot of them - not a desire to be Greek.

Yes, this.

And this. NerdyGreek, your daughter knew the size of the chapters going into recruitment. If it all feels so impersonal now, why did she initially think differently?

:confused::eek: at the bold.

First of all, you have no clue what those young women felt outside of what your daughter has told you. And secondly, did you really want your daughter to make important life decisions for other women because she's not happy with her options?

It sounds like your daughter was enjoying her time at school before recruitment. Her friends talked her into sticking with it, but it doesn't seem like that's what she wanted. Perhaps it's not the process and the expenses and the chapter from which she received a bid... maybe your daughter just doesn't want to be Greek?