Lowering Campus Total!
 

How would we go about lowering campus total? There are a few chapters on campus that have 60 (current total) most of us fall at about 40 and theres one chapter that is down into the teens, maybe even single digits...

I would love to see all chapters on our campus at a good number, and *hopefully* total. BUT there is NOT enough interest in greek life to have all sororities at 60...

How would we go about convincing Panhel (and the sororities at 60) to lower total to 50, 45 or even 40?

Sheila- I know you have tried this before! Help!

If we can get all orgs at total, we may be able to convince Panhel and Greek Life to expand... and we could get some of our old orgs back!

*cough*ASA :) *cough*

I was actually wondering this myself, because this year was the second year in a row that all six sororities at my school had to COB. Our total is currently 75 and 4 of the houses usually hover around there while 2 others are usually anywhere from 15-35. One of my sisters is Panhellenic secretary/treasurer this year, and when I asked her about it, she said that they can't lower total because the only reason quota was so low was that many women (54 out of 167!) had dropped out of recruitment. If everyone had stayed in recruitment and gotten bids, quota would have been higher and the 4 bigger houses would have hit total without a problem. So basically, if there was lack of interest in formal recruitment to begin with, they would have considered lowering total, but since the interest was there and women dropped or didn't get matched, there's nothing they can do about it. That's my unofficial second-hand information about how changing total works; hopefully someone with more expertise in NPC rules can come and explain it for real. :)

Ali, is Karen (your alum) still the Panhel advisor? She might be more amenable to it than our last Panhel advisor, since she's been there...

I think one of the first steps would be to go back in history and show the decline in rush numbers - then get all the groups who are under to vote in a block. Last time we tried this TPA actually abstained, why I have no clue - it would have helped them the most. Oh, and make sure that everyone knows this is a "going forward" thing - when we tried before, one of the larger groups had a cow and was like "but we just gave all these girls bids!!" Hello, it's called grandfather clause, Einstein.

I think total was raised to 60 in like 1991 - it definitely needs reevaluated, considering quota back then was 15-18.

Let me know what happens, I might be able to dig up some old friends of mine over ALF...

What great Panhellenic spirit! Could you come to my campus for a talk, too?!

33girl is so right about the voting bloc. You need all of those chapter that are below total to agree to this and understand it's importance. Many chapter charters are pulled because their numbers are below chapter total. And if this keeps happening, Greek Life as we know it will cease to exist. You've got to take care of each other. (you're only as strong as your weakest link...)

Another idea with increase numbers is pairing up the largest group with the smallest group and have them help rush for the smallest group (or groups). They don't have to participate in membership selection or anything - but their reputation on campus will help attrack women to recruitment functions for the smaller groups and they would be selling the Greek Experience. Again, focusing on the weakest link senario.

GOOD LUCK!

Just a warning for you... NPC might say no.

We tried it last year. Total was at 65 and was lowered to 50 in 2000 and we tried to lower it to 40. Nobody's been over 45 in years. Our chapter needs it so that a certain other chapters can't play the Suicide/COB dirty rush game. Shockingly enough, another chapter that's at 42 wanted it lowered because they were sick of COBing every term. They actually didn't want to get new members. The chapter that opposed it called their NPC delegate and raised a stink. NPC contacted our Greek advisor and forbade lowering campus total. They said that wasn't the answer.

Well, my question was, what is?

Fortunately we made our case to our NPC delegate at our Convention and she's arranging for NPC to engage in some nation-building this fall; they're sending us a consulting team. I hope that that'll help us get participation up so that we don't need to lower total.

So my advice to you is to get your NPC delegate on your side before you really start fighting to change total. Have the other chapters in your "voting block" do the same. That'll assure you the best chance of success.

KKC - I thought that we could do this locally. Isn't getting NPC nationally involved the same as them telling how to do elections, etc?

We have 7, maybe 2 are at total and it's been that way for a LONG TIME. I know our old panhel rep said to us "well that's too many sororities for that size campus." Well, if we were all friggin clairvoyant, we wouldn't have voted the last 2 groups in when we were all pulling huge pledge classes. We would have said "no, you can't come in because 10 years from now numbers will be in the toilet!" We really don't want 3 sororities at 100 members each, either. Especially with houses that hold an average of 15.

I'm just telling you what happened to us. I think that NPC didn't like our lowering total twice in three years. I really don't know what the policy is regarding NPC's involvement in campus Panhellenic operations. I'm not the Panhel expert; I was just our delegate for a term.

Thanks.
-KKC

I can understand that. Yeah, if we put it back down to 50 or 45 I think that would be sufficient for a while, unless enrollment skyrocketed/plummeted. The prob is it's something that has needed to be fixed for a while and we had a Panhel advisor who was dumber than a box of mice. Now that she's gone, hopefully some positive changes can be made. Thanks for your input. :)

Changing Total
 

It sounds like there should definately AT LEAST be a discussion about changing the number for Total on your campus. As a greek advisor I double checked the NPC Green-book (AKA Manual of Information) regarding total and will type that below here.

This is the "official" blurb concerning total changing procedures...if you go to your greek advisors office they should have a copy of the "greenbook", and I'm sure that someone in the chapter (president, vp, advisor) should have one also. This information is located on page 84 under Membership Recruitment Mechanics,

How to Set Total

"Total chapter size is determined by the Colelge Panhellenic after studying the current size fo the fraternity chapters, the availability of potential members, expected growth in the college enrollment and the most desirable chapter size for the campus.

Once set, total chater size should remain constant for several years. Limiting Total chapter size too drastically can harm fraternity growth.

Total figures should be realistic to result in the majority of chatpers reaching total chapter size. If all chapters are about the same size, a reasonable Total may be deteremined by dividing the total number of new members an dinitiated members by the number of chapters.

REEVALUATION OF THE TOTATL CHAPTER SIZE MAY BE DEISRABLE WHEN THE MAJORITY OF CHAPTERS REACH AND/OR EXCEED TOTAL, OW WHEN NO CHAPTER HAS REACHED THE ESTABLISHED TOTAL CHAPTER SIZE IN SEVERAL YEARS.

Resolved, that college Panhellenci councils prior to evaluation and/or chaning total chapter size consult with the NPC Area Advisor who shall notify NPC delegates with chapters on the cmapus of this evaluation."

Okay, so that's the offical Green book statment, personally I think that the NPC and the area advisor should stay out of the decision making end of this....you and your sisters, the greek community, and hopefully the greek advisor are on your campus everyday, know how it works, notice trends, and should be able to make reasonable decisions based upon that experience.

Should Headquarters and NPC know about the discussion and the possibility? Yes.

Should they (HQ's and NPC) control the decion? ABSOLUTELY NOT. You all are on the front lines and know better than anyone where you need to be...I think this (and excuse me as I go on a rant here) is just another example of NPC trying to exert their authority on a college campus and decide what is best on your campus...and I personally believe that is wrong!

I think NPC does some things well, and at the same time (this is the slightly bitter Greek advisor now) try to exert too much power and authority on college campuses, when they shouldn't.

A lot of the rules, policies, procedures, etc. are not what I would presonally call up-to-date or cutting edge....in a lot of various aspects their rules, feelings, and actions are antiquated and in need for a change!!!!!

Okay..I will get off my soap box now....that's something for a whole other thread!

Good luck, and if there is anything I can do please let me know.

Thanks for listening!

my last school finally got 'round to dropping total. prolly cause only like 3 out of 14 houses were meeting it. ehhhhh. other than that, there was some moaning and groaning but in the end everybody came around. we also set the idea that if you were reaching total you could COB or do informal. for some reason in the past, it wasn't a rule.

marissa

I am actually on the Panhel exec board at Clarion, and we have talked about lowering total, but we thought that we could rise the the challenge and become better chapters because of it. Enrollment at Clarion is actually up... so why aren't girls rushing? That is the question that needs to be solved. We tried our damndest to get the positive message about greeks out there... we bribed PNM's with cups to come to Meet the Sororities (about 100 ladies came) and still, quota was 5 for this semester. So, its not that we haven't thought about it, but we just aren't ready to admit defeat.

I don't know if lowering total is necessarily admitting defeat...I would hate to say that, but I see your point.

However, at the same time if no one is reaching Total consistantly that is a very dangerous situation especially for the smallest chapter.

Unfortuantely, some headquarters after seeing their chapters consistantly not hitting total see this as a warning sign, and eventually may close that chapter.

The tag line is always, "they weren't competitive enough at the total number they were at, so they deicided (it's always the chapter making the decision...according to the HQ's) that it was better to relinquish their charter."

I saw it happen twice once as an undergrad, and then as a graduate student. It is not a fun thing to go through at all, and I would hate for that to happen anywhere!

I think maybe a multi-directional approach would be good here. The campus should definately evaluate their recruitment and see if changes need to be made, they should also survey those women who chose to join, and those who didn't to get the reasons for both, and if necessary lower total for a year or two to get everyone back to a more even playing field....they could always re-evaluate and then raise totaly if necessary.

Just my thoughts...thanks for listening.

thanks opie, are you sure you haven't come to visit Clarion undercover? You are on the $$$ about HQ's just seeing that you don't hit total, for the most part they don't bother analyzing the history or the figures.

Jess, I don't think it would be admitting defeat. When you don't reach total over and over, no matter how unrealistic you know it is, it gets you depressed & desperate and that gets you in a downward spiral and harder to rush. God knows I have been there. And I think that turns some rushees off. I think if we just quit letting freshmen have cars it would solve our problem (but that of course is another thread! :p).

Opie, what if most of the chapters are hitting total, but only by extensive COBing - that is, no one hits total by doing only formal rush? Would that be considered grounds for lowering total? Thanks!

An answer for the larger groups not wanting to decrease total-----remind them that they can still recruit and extend bids to make quota, even if it puts them over total.

An answer for the larger groups not wanting to decrease total-----remind them that they can still recruit and extend bids to make quota, even if it puts them over total.

FuzzieAlum:

Sorry..it took so long....I hadn't been on this board lately. I believe that it would still be possible to lower if they can get through total through COB, but it would probably be less likely to occurr. I can see the arguement against being, "Well, we do get to total through informal, so maybe we just need to work harder during the formal recruitment period to get those women."

I guess it's kind of a touch and go situation, and it's hard for me to give a more confident (and probably benifical) answer without actually having the experience of being on your campus and the whole culture of the orgs, campus, students, etc. But I hope I was somewhat helpful.

Thanks for listening.

This Is Fascinating To Watch
 

I honestly mean no disrespect. I realize that I'm sticking my nose in where it's not welcome, and I expect to be told so. Still...It's fascinating to read this thread and contemplate the oceanic gulf between the ways men and women think. You're having serious discussions about holding back and dampening the success of some sorority chapters because other sorority chapters are not as successful. If someone told the leading fraternities at a public university that they had to cap their membership because some other fraternities were offering nothing of value to potential members and could attract no new pledges, there'd be an avalanche of lawsuits filed in Federal court. Guys assume that their chapters are successful because they are aggressive and accomplished and offer value to the members. They assume the fraternities that cannot attract members fail because they have nothing to offer that rushees want. The idea that men who are rejected for membership in a successful group will turn around and join one that is not, simply because it has Greek letters, is completely foreign to the way guys think.
I have never seen a decent-sized sorority system that didn't have at least one struggling chapter. The theory I suppose is that, until some more women join the unsuccessful group, the system will not admit another sorority that might bring needed enthusiasm and value to the campus. Instead of holding the successful ones back, why not let them grow and prosper as they will, creating an atmosphere of great enthuiasm, of dynamic and exciting chapters that will attract greater numbers of members campus-wide. Let the ones that offer no real incentive to join fall away, and let new ones come on and prosper.
Obviously, the system that sororities operate works well for them, and we men surely have our problems. But my goodness!, we certainly see our world through different eyes.

Yes. Thank you. You obviously do see things differently. Allow me to direct you to the "Sorority Quotas" thread and the "Rho Chi/Gamma duties-- venting!" thread, both located in the Rush forum. I trust you will find them informative.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic.

There is one thing I have to question in that logic ... if EVERY decent sized sorority system has at least one struggling chapter, and NO school will expand without all chapters doing well, how does any sorority system ever expand?

Obviously, we manage to! We're not quite as draconian as that. If every chapter but one is doing well, a school might well decide to expand. Panhellenics aren't as dumb as men seem to think sometime. They recognize very well that a chapter may fail for its own weaknesses.

It's when several chapters are doing poorly - that overall interest in Greek life is waning - that we don't expand. If fewer women are rushing (and this country does go through cycles like that), it's not the moment to make every chapter even smaller. That's one time the women's system really shines. There's always a men's group waiting to come on campus whenever they please, and I've seen it happen - when they do so during a "down" time, some other house always loses, and a house can go from top to bottom in two years.

Unfortunately, we women do have more of a herd mentality than guys do. Let's say Big U has ten fraternities and ten sororities, and normally 100 of each gender pledge, 10 to each chapter. Obviously that's simplistic. But next year only 90 of each gender rush. What probably happens to the men is that 9 men join each chapter. Over on the sorority side, 10 women join 9 chapters and one is screwed. Which chapter is that? The one who was one girl smaller to begin with, or the one with the plainest house, or the one the fraternities were spreading nasty rumors about ... not necessarily the house with the worst rush tactics or the biggest problems. If we had a system like you guys did, we would end up with one house on campus with 500 girls in it! Our system protects US from our failings.

If one group really wanted 500 members wouldn't they vote against expansion in the first place?

If some chapters can attain the total that is set on campus, lowering it wouldn't really be an option. NPC rules state that total should be reevaluated when NO chapters reach total in several years. It sounds to me as if you have a few groups that do, so this wouldn't really work to lower total.

I understand your dilemma, trust me though. Bloomsburg has a quota that only a very few meet, but you keep plugging away in hopes that you get there. With some sororities hitting the number, not allowing them to take the women they want isn't really fair either. If you're having huge numbers problems, I encourage you to look for interest groups on campus who want to start new sororities. Those are a fantastic place to find PNMs if the campus isn't willing to do extensions.