rushing undercover?!
 

i just wanted to share with the greek chat world how fucked up the SDSU greek life advisor is...
in addition to the numerour rules that we must follow during rush, now there is going to be undercover PNM's. every weekend there are undercover freshmen girls going to fraternity patyies asking for beer. if you give them anything you get busted. theta chi got busted twice already...its fucking lame. now in addition to that there will be undercover freshmen guys going through rush trying to bust fraternities. i am so sick of this bull shit. has anyone ever heard of this crap before? its like our greek advisor has sunken to a new low...you would think that he would support greeks instead of fucking them over.

I am sorry but that goes over board. I mean random people saying asking for beer at parties and ur whole group gets in trouble? I am sorry but i have been to some fraternity parties in my life, and sometimes just random people hand out beer and their definately not caring if that house gets in trouble or not. I do believe we should try to enforce rules, but having like undercover agents is going way to far. Thumbs down to your greek life advisors for taking this alittle too far, and not spending more time on important things.

Your Greek Advisor's behavior is beyond sad. While I recognize that attitudes and standards have tightened up over the last decade. I do not think it is appropriate for an advisor to be acting in a quasi law enforcement capacity.
An advisor should exist simply to encourage and aid individual chapters and the greek system as a whole.
San Diego State is a public University as long as your House is off campus it would seem to me the power of a University official would in reality be very limited, I am not advocating breaking alchohol or hazing rules but law enforcement should be left to the college or city police, this advisors attitude is only going to inspire fear and hostility by the greeks toward his office.
MAKE YOUR OPINIONS KNOWN TO THE APPROPRIATE UNIVERSITY OFFICIALS AT STUDENT LIFE OR THE DEAN OF RESIDENCE LIFE.
LET THE POWERS THAT BE KNOW THAT THIS ADVISOR HAS GONE OFF THE DEEP END.

If this isn't a form of entrapment, I don't know what is. I know this town did something similar for underage kids going to movies rated R, but it was an expose'. What do they expect? Do they want you to card everyone that walks through your door?
I agree there is a real problem with underage drinking.
This problem can cause devastaion on so many levels. Still, if this was 20 years ago, 90% of the problem would be taken care of since your INITIAL concern would be those 17 year old Freshmen, not kids who by all other standards are adults.

In agreement with UToledoFiji, it's just too difficult to monitor what random people at your party are doing. You might never know if someone hands one of these undercover freshman a beer...unless you get busted. I can understand your advisor wanting to do something about the underage drinking...I just don't think this is a good way of going about it.

That sounds like the most bizarre deterrant for PNM underage drinking. When I was a Rho Chi, some of my fellow Rho Chis started a rumor the second day of recruitment that "a girl in _______ dorm was kicked out of rush because she got caught drinking at ______ fraternity".

We started the rumor to scare some of the girls away from drinking, but it ended up becoming a urban legend. By the end of the week we heard girls saying "Oh, my friend in that dorm knows that girl, I heard she is in a lot of trouble". It was hard keeping a straight face all week when you overheard comments -- but I know it stopped some women from drinking.

Sounds like
 

It sounds like you need to go to the person that's over the greek advisor and talk about changing some things or changing the advisor. First off that's invading pravicy, without knowing of knowledege. Second it's just not right it look like to me that your advisor is doing this on purpose so to speak. Now all of a sudden it's been freshmen just coming to events and feel like drinking, and u know who the people are that's coming in as suspects so watch out. I don't know if SDSU is a small college or not but one thing for sure you guys have to start at the base of the issue and that's the advisor. "Remember advisor come and go but greeks last for ever"....

Entrapment
 

Hi there.

The original post didn't make it clear whether "busted" means university punishment or law enforcement punishment. Either way, it's not entrapment.

In my state, and I believe in California as well, provision of cigarettes or alcohol to underage people is, like statutory rape, a strict liability crime. In other words, it doesn't matter whether you intended to break the law; it doesn't matter whether you honestly believed you were following it. Further, it doesn't matter whether the government tempted you into breaking it. If you are dispensing alcohol or tobacco, it is your responsibility to make sure it doesn't fall into the wrong hands. Period.

Do I agree with this law when it comes to noncommercial providers of alcohol? No, I don't. I think it's stupid. Nevertheless, even if you are off-campus, as long as you are a recognized university organization, I think it's reasonable for the university to make sure that you are obeying state laws, even stupid ones. If some foolish freshman comes to your party and drinks himself to death, his parents are going to sue the university for failing to protect him, not just your fraternity for serving him. The Greek advisor is trying to cover everyone's @$$.

Seems to me the problem here is that you don't agree with state law. It's an election year. Start campaigning for better liquor laws. Maybe you and your brothers can road trip to Sacramento to lobby your legislators or volunteer on campus to register young voters.

Ivy (J.D. '02)

P.S. I don't think this is intended as a deterrent to the PNM's; it's a deterrent to the fraternities. Card at the door and issue wristbands, and station a brother at every keg. It's the only way.

Am I the only one here who knows it is ILLEGAL for ANY fraternity or sorority to PROVIDE COMMON SOURCES OF ALCOHOL at a function? If you are providing your guests with beer, regardless if they are 21 or not, then you are breaking NIC, NPC, and FIPG rules and regulations. I thought it was clear that functions had to be BYOB, and that RUSH FUNCTIONS in general are supposed to be DRY at any rate.

If your Greek Advisor is sending in "undercover" students through your rush parties, then it must be common knowledge that your school's chapters are breaking the established rules over dry rush and providing alcohol. Don't get pissed off that he/she is doing her job, get pissed off that the chapters on your campus feel they don't have to abide by the established rules of the Greek community.

And it is not entrapment or invasion of privacy if there is PROBABLE CAUSE or SUSPICION OF WRONG-DOING. And what would your rather see happen: the GA sending in an "undercover agent" to investigate these rumors and/or suspicions, or simply have the cops called and have them raid the place and give everyone breathalizers?

On a side note, who are these "undercover" freshmen that are being sent in. What freshman would be willing to label themselves as a "narc" and social parriah by telling on the offending chapters?

I have to agree that your advisor probably would not do this unless alcohol at recruitment parties/underage drinking has become a serious problem. I would say the only way to fight this action with the advisor is to prove to him that it is unnecessary by following the rules.

On a side note, I heard about a girl who went through recruitment and pledging and then wrote an expose in the school paper... crazy, huh?

Unless I misunderstood wht Josh was saying, I believed he was indicating it would be EVERY weekend not limited to rush events.in addition to the numerour rules that we must follow during rush, now there is going to be undercover PNM's. every weekend there are undercover freshmen girls going to fraternity patyies asking for beer.

I said If this isn't a form of entrapment, I don't know what is. Not being legally trained, I don't know the leter of the law or the printed definition-so I bow to the oratory on entrapment-but to me, it still feels like it. It just seems unfair to set these kids up this way. Who will volunteer to play a part of this plan? I'm sorry, but I still think this method of dealing with the problem stinks.
HOWEVER_
I didn't consider that the problem could be SO extreme that the Greek Life Advisor felt this was the only approach. THAT WAS AN EXCELLENT POINT.

EDITED AGAIN- Are they ONLY using females JOSH? I'm losing my mind! If the are doing it during rush too of COURSE they are using guys. Just how bad IS this problem? You mentioned a fraternity getting busted TWICE-why did they do it again, and what is the penalty? I think I'm gong to quit posting so early in the morning!

My question is -- why do they have to send undercover PNMs to fraternity parties? When I was a Rho Chi, groups of us would randomly show up at parties in our PX tee-shirts to let our presence be known. We'd stay for about 15 minutes and leave and come back later - it scared the piss out of most PNMs who were serious about recruitment!

I might be wrong (I probably am) when I say I thought rush events were supposed to be alcohol free?

When my last school held formal rush, it was made VERY CLEAR that there were to be no alcohol of any sort at the fraternity events. It was a strictly dry rush.

While I don't agree with your greek advisor putting 'undercover' PNM's, I think the fraternity should also be responsible.

I am not sure how all fraternities work, but I am sure they must have some kind of alcohol policy that they have to follow.

One fraternity always had a party during the semester and they carded EACH AND EVERY person who walked through the door. Even though I was underage at the time, I respected that they were following the rules and didn't have a problem with it. The men of the fraternity often did not even "party" at their own parties.. they would make sure everyone there wasn't leaving drunk and no one was doing anything stupid.. that made me respect them even more.

anyways, i think i'm just rambling now, but my point is, is that they followed the rules set forth by their fraternity and university/state/federal laws.

I don't want to sound pious, but...
 

It seems to me that if you're already following the rules, then this shouldn't be a problem. If you're breaking them, then consider this a warning. I'm sorry, but legally, you shouldn't be serving alcohol to minors, during rush or otherwise. There's plenty of dirty rushing of the alcohol variety that goes on at certain fraternities on my campus. I'm sure that the fraternities who do not do this would be happy to see the ones who do be busted. To me this is no different from the cops' sending a 15 year old kid into a gas station to try to buy tobacco. It's not entrapment.

Now do I agree with the current drinking age? That's another story altogether.

First I'll try to sum up what I've seen here so far.

- josh8o is surprised by the tactics that the SDSU Greek Advisor is choosing to enforce alcohol rules -- it's not clear whether the rules that are being enforced are the recruitment rules or the state law. Maybe that doesn't really matter. Josh's surprise comes from the choice of enforcement tactic.

- One reply to this complaint goes along the lines of, "hey, you know, if you weren't breaking the rules, you at least wouldn't be exposed to risk by this enforcement tactic, however lame it may be." That reply does have some sense to it: you have a responsibility to conduct your recruitment activities in accordance with state law and the rules of recruitment. I think that if your complaint lies in the fact that this particular enforcement tactic stands an awfully good chance of catching you, then you have a problem with how you run your parties, and you'd better shape up.

"You would think that he would support greeks," josh8o says, and that is true -- but what does that mean? That does not mean allowing prohibited activity to go on under his nose. I do think that other means of enforcement would be better, but you are not entitled to have the rules ignored or "enforced" in ways that are easily worked around.

- Another reply goes along the lines of, "ouch -- there are better ways to enforce these rules than to enlist people to sneak around," and I think that is right. Even if things are pretty bad, there may have been alternatives that would create less friction between the fraternities and the school.

Still, I don't think it's entrapment in either a legal sense (as my fellow JD IvySpice noted), and possibly not in a moral sense either. It's not nice, but it's not entrapment. Entrapment is when an enforcer of the rules tries and succeeds to persuade you to do something prohibited that you otherwise would never have done. There's no entrapment when a person who has the authority and responsibility to enforce the rules sets up a test to see what you do, and you break the rules or law because that's what you were going to do anyway. The part I'm most skeptical about is the use of actual students. But when you lay most of the groundwork yourself -- by having a party in conditions that you know are heavily regulated, and then having alcohol present, and then failing to take the responsibility that comes along with having alcohol (if it's permitted at all), I really don't think you have a whole lot of ground to complain when someone decides to test your system to make sure it works.

That's what the community is entitled to demand: that you sincerely and effectively follow the rules and implement a system that works. If alcohol is outright forbidden, don't have it. If it isn't forbidden, I recommend the following strategies:

(1) Have only one entrance door. Card everyone at the door. Know how to card effectively and how to spot a fake. (Someone from campus or city PD will probably be glad to train you.) Apply wristbands or unique stamps. Ensure that the people putting on wristbands know how to put them on so that they are most difficult to remove without breaking them, but don't cut off circulation.

(2) Lock the other doors and station people nearby so that people cannot let others sneak in. This is especially important if your party is BYOB or dry, as (underage) people may try to sneak in with their own alcohol.

(3) If you're serving, make sure you have an appropriate permit if one is necessary, and station a brother at every source of alcohol. Only this person may pour. He must check wristbands and must card again if the wristband is suspect.

This is not that hard.

My thoughts on the choice of tactic -- yes, it's probably overly aggressive, but I don't know what the situation is on your campus. Yes, it's very divisive and probably a bad political decision, but I don't know what approaches to enforcement have been tried before.

If you're upset because someone who has supported you in the past is trying what seems like a dirty tactic without trying anything else first, then I concur. They should have tried other methods. But I don't agree so easily if what you really want is to get away with serving alcohol when it is prohibited.

You might be able to negotiate to have a different enforcement tactic tried, as long as you don't have as your goal a tactic that will still let you serve alcohol in violation of the rules. They want something that will genuinely let them stop prohibited alcohol use, and you'd better be ready to offer them something that will do that.

By the way, I'll be explicit about my take on the alcohol issue that underlies all of this. I think the uniform drinking age has some silly effects, but I do believe that it should be enforced at fraternity parties, and I am a strong supporter of strict dry recruitment.

wow, lots of replies...
the pre-rush rules here are that no freshmen are allowed at fraternity parties...and also if they are drinking its not good either. the undercover girls are there to get fraternities in trouble with IFC.
the undercover PNM's for rush are there for reasons i can only imagine...and dont want to think about. at sdsu everyone breaks the rules. most houses dont even know the rules. its not so much that we want to drink at rush, but it's handing out a bid early, or having events that are not allowed. the greek life advisor hasn't dont one thing since i have been greek to help out the well being of fraternities. all he does is try to hurt everyone. this is just another addition to the long list of things he does to kill greek life. there is an assistant greek life advisor who is really cool and works hard to promote greek life. when we were in trouble he tried hard to help us fix the situation.

It helps to know that, because while I don't think houses should be breaking the rules, it tells me something about some of the possible alternatives the greek advisor might have chosen. For example, if most of the houses really don't know what the rules are, then I think there needs to be an information campaign before potentially harsh enforcement of the rules begins. It would make it a lot more fair, it would have the potential of genuinely improving things, and in all it would be the supportive way to go about it. The unsupportive way is just to start beating people down.

Your chapter or IFC should consider proposing that there be (1) information sessions that everyone can attend (perhaps one for each house or perhaps divided at least for groups of houses, so that people can ask questions) and (2) a well-written and organized handbook for all fraternity members that does more than just explain the rules. This sort of thing should say not only what you can't do, but what you can do within the rules, and how you might practically go about it.

Good luck to you.

Eupolis:
that is exactly what i wanted to do with rush this year.... i ran for IFC assistant rush chair because i wanted to change a lot of things. the assistant rush chair was never picked, but i ended up helping with rush by being present at freshmen orientation to represent IFC. anyway, since my house is not allowed to participate in IFC rush this year i was not able to continue helping with rush (bull shit, bull shit, bull shit).
I know exactly what you are saying...there is so much i want to change about rush at sdsu. it needs a complete overhaul.

CSU Crack Down on Alcohol
 

Josh,

From a fellow CSU student and Greek I say don't look at it as your greek advisor is being a jerk but that he is trying to meet standards that the CSU Chancellors office has set down for the CSU's. In the last few years there have been a number of alcohol related accidents and deaths in the CSU system - many involving Greeks. (One at SDSU that involved underage drinking, a fraternity, and the underage drinker that ended up in the hospital being the son of a Dean or Chair at the school.) Anyway, last year the CSU Trustees and Chancellor Reed made a decision to address the issue of the drinking among college students at the CSU's. All CSU's must address the issue of college students and drinking - legally or underage - or face repercussions from the CSU Chancellors Office.

I understand about getting frustrated with your Greek Advisor and the way he's acting but realize he may be just doing what he has been asked/told to by the Vice President of Student Life and/or the Chancellors Office. Remember that at 47,000 plus students, SDSU is the largest in the CSU System and as such is viewed as setting examples to the other CSU's.

If the Advisor is so bad, then every Greek at SDSU needs to go to the Vice President of Student Life and speak to him about it. If only one or two go then it doesn't do any good.

getting screwed by the school
 

I have heard of si,ilar crap here in New Hampshire. It's because of IFC/Pan...
The BYOB rule is stupid. All the other parts serve beer, but the crack down on greeks.

Actually I do believe that most if not all NIC and NPC groups DO NOT ALLOW COMMON SOURCES OF ALCOHOL AT SPONSORED/HOSTED FUNCTIONS.

You need to check with your inter/national headquarters and find out about your organization's risk management/risk awareness programs and policies. I do believe that like 90% of the NIC and NPC groups have OUTLAWED kegs and other common sources of alcohol (such as hunch punch). BYOB is the ONLY way that it is legal for a fraternity to sponsor a party, and ID's must still be checked, and in most cases, you still have to monitor how much each person brings in and is alowed to drink during the course of the party.

And it is even more illegal for a chapter to use "chapter funds" to purchase alcohol for a function with the intent to distribute - and this includes "passing the hat" or members pooling money together to purchase alcohol.

Everyone on this board complains that Greeks are sterotyped as partiers, binge drinkers and swimming in alcohol...and then complain because you can't have a keg party or gripe that the Greek Advisor is making you abide by the risk management/awareness and alcohol rules and regulations.

Sorry, but you can't have your cake and eat it too...if you are committed to your fraternity or sorority, then you won't participate in or tolerate actions that go against your organization's established rules and regulations. Most Greek Advisors are out there to help your organization stay on the legal and acceptable side of things...if you break rules, you pay the price (and reinforce those negative sterotypes of Greeks). Claiming ignorance is not an excuse to breaking the law.

And let's not even open the can of worms regarding "off campus" or "unofficial" houses where several members may live. That mythological loophole has been shot down in court and chapters have been held liable for what happens at these "unofficial" locations.

You can have tons of fun, rewarding and memoriable times as a Greek in today's world by abiding by the established rules and regulations...both with and without alcohol. If the only reason you're in a fraternity is to drink beer and chase girls, then you've missed the boat my friend.

If it's common practice for frats to provide alcohol to minors and the girls aren't police, it's not entrapment. Stop giving booze to teenagers and you won't have a problem. It's illegal and you should get caught for it.

Forget about entrapment, if your school administration is actually using underage people to "catch you in the act" they are probably breaking the law themselves. If they are not a law enforcement agency its probably very illegal for them to send someone under 21 to obtain alcohol at a party, even if the person they send doesn't plan on consuming it. The minute the undercover freshmen has a beer in their hands they are breaking the law themselves and from a legal standpoint I don't think they can be excused by saying "the greek advisor wanted me to catch fraternities serving underage people"

This is a very old thread that we have resurrected, but here is my 2 cents.

Chapter education is key, but if that has failed and a number of violations are suspected and/or reported, than something bigger must happen to help the members understand that certain activities will have consequences.

Checking in to make sure chapters are following university, local and federal laws is not illegal. How would this be any different from someone mystery shopping a store to make sure their POP displays are set up properly?

Cops routinely send minors into liquor stores to buy cigarettes and alcohol. If the merchant sells to the minor, they get busted. In this case, the university admin/Greek adviser are serving as enforcers.

i think that is really wrong in some many wyas to go under cover to check someone doing...My friend got kicked out of rush my freshmen year because she went to a party and wasn't even drinking. I think some of these rules are way to intense. Granted...if you are an legit organization you should worry, but still, Certain things could be taken the wrong way.