Court clears Crips founder for execution
 

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) - A convicted killer who co-founded the Crips street gang and later became a Nobel Peace Prize nominee has been cleared for execution by a federal appeals court.

Stanley Williams could be executed by injection as early as next year unless the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals reconsiders its decision, the U.S. Supreme Court intervenes or the governor grants him clemency.

Williams and a high school friend, Raymond Washington, created the notorious Crips gang in Los Angeles in 1971. Hundreds of spinoffs and copycat gangs have since emerged across the nation.

Washington was killed in a gang fight in 1979. Williams, "Big Took" to his fellow gang members, continued his violent ways and transformed the Crips into a national enterprise.

Williams, now 48, was convicted of killing four people in 1979. While appealing his death sentence, he has spent time writing children's books and coordinating an international peace effort for youths - all from his 9-by-4-foot cell at San Quentin State Prison.

The work has landed him Nobel Peace Prize nominations the last two years, but his efforts haven't swayed prosecutors and police groups who believe he should remain behind bars.

"He's created one of the biggest criminal networks that the world has ever seen. I will be glad to see him executed," said Deputy Attorney General Lisa J. Brault. "I don't think writing a few children's books negates what he has done."

Williams was sentenced to death in 1981 for fatally shooting a convenience store worker. He was also convicted of killing two Los Angeles motel owners and their daughter during a robbery a few days later.

Williams claims he is innocent. He said in his appeal that jailhouse informants lied when they testified that he confessed to the murders.

Despite its decision Tuesday, the appeals court seemed sympathetic to Williams' plight.

"Although Williams' good works and accomplishments since incarceration may make him a worthy candidate for the exercise of gubernatorial discretion, they are not matters that we in the federal judiciary are at liberty to take into consideration," Judge Procter Hug Jr. wrote.

A spokesman for Gov. Gray Davis said it's too soon to know whether the governor will intervene.

Barbara Becnel, a journalist who has helped Williams with his publishing career and maintains a Web site for the condemned inmate, was shaken by the court's ruling.

"That's incredibly bad news," she said.

The inmate's Internet Project for Street Peace links at-risk California and South African youths through e-mail and chat rooms. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize in 2001 - a move that drew sharp criticism from police groups - but he did not win.

Williams was nominated again this year for the prize. The winner has not yet been announced.


What Do you think?

I am not sure what to say on this one. I have sort of mixed views. If he is truly responsible for these crimes the he should definitely be held accountable but I am not sure if the death penalty is the proper punishment (though the family members of the victims may disagree) The fact that he has now dedicated his life to the betterment of society through literature should probably be considered a little more. Maybe those who were negatively influenced by his past can be re-directed down the right path through his literary works. I don't know....just a thought. :confused: As a Nobel Peace Prize nominee maybe he can now be a productive citizen. And maybe I am being a little to soft...

Also, they should consider DNA testing. Recently, it has set free one or two people who were wrongfully accused of a violent crime.

He could have done all that good while he was a free man.

But it does make you think. hmmm....

Executing hime is not going to end the Crips criminal empire either. Sure he may have started it. But his death will not bring it to an end. If he did kill the people he is accused of killing then , yes he does need to serve time for his crimes.

However, the government needs to look at the reasons why gangs in urban city settings start in the first place and what are they doing to perpetuate this.

I am not holding government accountable for all wrong that people do ....however I am saying that many times they come in after the fact trying to slap a band-aid on a surgical wound.


Besides the fact that I dont totally agree with the death penalty anyway.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20051025...sticeexecution

Judge has set a December Execution Date

I agree, execution isn't going to stop the gang war. If anything, it might cause them to rebel seeing how this is one of their "founders".

I see them terrific 12's dominating this post!!! *hugz*

Wow, we were just discussing the death penalty in my Civil Liberties class this morning. Honestly, at times I have mixed views. But morally, I think its wrong. You're telling society that murder is wrong, yet you go on and kill another person by lethal injection or whatever method is used. :confused: JMO

Tookie
 

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/us/death_penalty

SACRAMENTO, Calif. - Calling death row inmate Stanley Tookie Williams a "secret weapon" for helping black men stay out of gangs, the head of the NAACP traveled across California on Tuesday to rally support for clemency for the convicted killer. Bruce Gordon, president and chief executive of the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People, said executing Williams on Dec. 13 would be a mistake
...

I guess I'm in the mood to talk about this type of stuff tonite.

What do you all think about Tookie? Should he live or die?

For those of you who don't know, Stanley Tookie Williams is one of, if not the, founder of the CRIPS gang in Cali. Swartzenegger has the option to grant him clemency and stop his execution on the 13th or let him fry.

Yanno, I am conflicted about this, because I am conflicted about what I feel about the death penalty. But on the other hand, I can't forget about the death and destruction he has directly or indirectly caused in our community.

So on one hand I want him to pay the ultimate price, but on the other hand it may be more beneficial to the communityfor him to serve the rest of his life in prison, if he truly is helping to turn things around.

That is exactly the way I feel. I'm sorry, but LOOK at all the destruction that gang has caused. He is responsible for that. Nevermind about the 4 other lives he was charged with taking, I am upset about the crips. I also feel, however, that the death penalty is a very difficult topic and I don't feel like going too deep into my views on that right now.

Williams is not responsible of all the destruction that gang has caused. Each member of that gang made a choice (regardless of their surroundings). Now, I understand the idea growing up in a place where everyone you know (family and friends) are involved in a gang. Nevertheless, you still have choices, because there were many that group up in those neighborhoods and didn't join gangs. So anybody who joined the crips, made that decision because they chose to. NOT BECAUSE TOOKIE MADE THEM. I am not saying that he isn't responsbile for his own actions, but he is not responsible for someone else's. Besides I think he has done more than any other man can possibly do from behind bars to stop gang violence.

While I do not believe in the death penalty, California does so therefore he should serve whatever sentence he received for murdering those 4 people.

Granted, this man ceated a nationwide legacy of violence and destruction, however maybe he will be remembered for the good he tried to do during his last years of life.

I agree. I think he should be executed because that is the sentence his crime carries. Period. Even if he had nothing to do with the Crips, he would still, based on those four murders alone, deserve the death penalty because that is the applicable law and penalty where he was convicted.

I too am glad that he has rehabilitated. He owed that to himself, so that he might leave this world in peace and with a decent legacy. Moreover, so that he may be blessed with Grace and Mercy. That is reward enough, in itself.

He is responsible due to his involvement with the creation of that notorious gang. Without his creating it, those kids may have had other influences that would have steered them in a different direction in life. That goes for Tookie as well as any and all other creators of these gangs we have to deal with today.

Please overlook typos and grammar issues I am in a rush...
 

I have read these posts and I would like to pose a questions to the people who posted here and to those who have just read the posts. There are some dangerous and "unorthodox" actions in all of our BGLOs that could cause harm to members, perspective members, and in turn the community (i.e. hazing, binge drinking, unprotected sex, etc.). Now with that said, would you feel comfortable with your founders being put on trial and held accountable for the actions of some of the members of the organizations. I am sure we all know that it was not the intention of the founders of our orgs to have these types of activities be associated with our "great gatherings of men and women". Let's say just for sake of argument that one of my Founders was put on trial. In my case, A L Taylor, the founder that had the vision of my great fraternity (the Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity, Inc. 1914), was put on trial and ridiculed for the actions of a chapter that injured a young man during his pledge process. During this ridicule he is attacked and his life threatened for these actions.
It is painfully obvious that Mr. Williams is not being put to death/"murdered" for his connections with those 4 murders he was accused of because the evidence in those cases are circumstantial AT BEST. I do want you all to understand that perspective has a lot to do with this issue. We don't see ourselves (BGLOs) as gangs but there are those who look at us that way. Keep in mind that these gangs (Crips, Bloods, Brotherhood, Latin Kings, and Vice Lords) have been surrogate families for a lot of the members... because of the shortcomings of our community. Let's not even delve into the shortcomings of our government because it is ultimately our responsibility to raise our children and our brother's children. Why do we not attack the disease and not the symptom. Gangs and gang violence are not the disease, they are the symptom of neglect on our part. Just something to think about when you are giving opinions on this mans life. A life not given to him by any of us and a life not lived by any of us.

Again my opinion. Open for suggestion, I am saying this is the only way to look at this issue...this is just my take...

Humbly submitted,

LoJ

Interesting. I have some thoughts that I need to finish hammering out in response to LoJ's post and his comparisons of gangs to fraternities and sororities.

But I shall return. :)

.....
 

williams bears a great deal of responsibility with the 'direction' the crips gang had gone. is he directly responsible for every idiot that joins, no; indirectly, yes. however, im not sure if his gang affiliation should be a heavy factor in deciding his fate. ideally, the evidence needs to be looked at throroughly. from what i have read, there is some discrepancy regarding his participation. williams owned the gun/s that were used in the crime but i believe there is a question whether he was actively involved in the murders. i also believe that because the system is inherently flawed, death really shouldnt be an option, but that is an entirely different discussion.

its great that he has turned his life around while in prison. he is one of the few prison success stories out there. i agree wholeheartedly that he should have been doing that all along. i have little sympathy for folks who resort to a life of crime and dont progress out of that life. we all make choices. life is hard for many.we just have to deal. im somewhat offended that people are considering him worthy of a nobel prize. there are billions of people in this world who make a difference in a community, for a people and/or for humanity. many go unnoticed and many do so without having resorted to negativity or being associated with negativity.

i do hope he doesnt die. there needs to be clear proof that tookie was the one that pulled the trigger or was the mastermind behind it. if neither is the case then he needs to stay alive and have his say.

Killing Williams will not bring those four people back nor will it deter new people from joining the gang or even hinder new criminal activity. Being completely against the death penalty, I believe his good deeds should take precedence over his past. I've been deeply disturbed by this situation since I started doing further research into it. I honestly do not believe that he deserves to die.

...
 

in your research, what have you discovered?

Re: Please overlook typos and grammar issues I am in a rush...
 

Before I begin, let me state for the record, I am not well versed/read on the totality of Stanley "Tookie" Williams, the 4 murders, etc.

My response is related the question/scenario posed above.

I contend that all of the NPHC organizations were founded with a purpose of uplift that promoted brother/sisterhood, scholarship, and service.

I just read THIS.

Taken from the above link:

The Beginning
In the spring of 1971, when Tookie was 17, he was in a very different situation. He was a high school student from South Central Los Angeles. He had a fearsome reputation as a fighter and as a "general" of South Central's west side. And, around that time, Tookie, along with Raymond Lee Washington, created what would one day be a super-gang, the Crips.

Back in the day when Tookie and Raymond founded the Crips, many of the young people of South Central Los Angeles were involved with small gangs. Those gang members roamed South Central taking property from anyone who feared them, including women and children. To protect the community, Tookie and Raymond organized the Crips.

Growth
By 1979, the Crips had grown from a small Los Angeles gang to an organization with membership spread across the State of California. By this time, Crips had also become just like the gang members they had once sought to protect themselves from -- Crips had become gangbangers who terrorized their own neighborhoods.

Soon the Crips lost both their leaders: in 1979, Raymond was murdered by a rival gang member, and, that same year, Tookie was arrested. He was charged with murdering four people. In 1981, Tookie was convicted of those crimes and placed on death row.

Now I know that it states that The Crips were created to protect the community, but this isn't Fat Albert we're talking about.

To answer the question, you posed:

IF any 1 of my 22 founders was still alive today and
IF a prospective member of the organization was killed due to an act of hazing and
IF the court, judicial system attempted to indict the founder(s) for this act that was not committed by the founder herself, but by a member of the organization, then

NO, the founder is not responsible for the death of the member.

I know some folks attempt to equate fraternities and sororities to gangs, but it is an unfair comparison. By and large, our organizations are marinated in positivity.

Tookie was known as a fighter. When the Crips were born to protect, I doubt that the protection was just verbal, "Please leave our neighborhood alone" and gave them books to read.

The word gang carries a negative connotation. So, unfortunately, Tookie Williams, while his life has become positive while incarcerated, did some negative things (not necessarily the 4 murders) but his bad, unfortunately, is overshadowing the good he has done while incarcerated.

Just my thoughts.

Well said, CT4.

LoJ, the comparison of Tookie Williams as a founder of the Crips to the founders of our BGLOs really bothers me. BGLOs as a whole, do not commit the illegal acts of hazing, etc--wayward members do. I can't say the same about gangs.

Growing up, I had family members and acquaintances that belonged to rival Chicago gangs--the Vice Lords and the Disciples. There was nothing protective (except for their "own" territories,) nor uplifting about them, .

**MUAH** :) :D

To those who have done more research, besides the books he has written, what are the other good deeds he is being credited with?

I am not in favor of the DP in general. But, that's the law in CA. Fry him. I wish that all the energy that's been expended to try to "save" him had been put towards doing community service/outreach. Instead of trying to avoid his execution, why not take some time to tutor a kid who's at risk?

**waving my church fan**

Agreed.

sooo...
 

so should he be fried for his direct or indirect involvement with these killings or should he be fried because of his history with the crips?

i ask this because i have read that the guns used were his but he didnt actually do the killing.

also, i think its unfair to compare williams' motives for starting the crips to that of any bglo. to me, williams' reasons were self-serving not designed to enhance or benefit a community or mankind. whereas bglos were created to not only serve the positive motives of their respective founders but to create a history and system of philanthropy w/n our communities.

no offense, but that kind of discussion should be separate and should have no bearing on this issue.

Today is his clemency hearing.

I think that if he's executed that there's gonna be some chit in the city, and a big huge Attica type response from crips in jail and on the street, I'm serious.:(

I actually think the same way but was having a hard time typing it out. But yes I agree.

^^^ i was thinking the same thing. if they execute him after all this hype and attention, you are asking for a riot. which is sad cause thats the only way some black people know how to express their disappointments.

I know there was a rumor that crips in jail were planning on acting the fool if he was executed, but that's just a rumor of course.

Wasn't Tookie nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize?

Five times and counting... As for the crips in jail, I am sure San Quentin has already approved the overtime. Plus they probably have a swat team on standby.

i watched the bet special.....
 

i saw the interview with williams last night. there are serious problems with the evidence that got him put away. after watching the show, i couldnt help but wonder if williams is on death row for his role as a crip founder or as the person responsible for killing those people back in '79?

there was a gentleman who was a rally participant that compared the williams scenario to george bush and the current war. he basically said that if tookie was being held responsible/incarcerated for starting the crips and all that came with it, then shouldnt bush be held in the same light for the iraqi war and its current state of affairs?

if tookie is granted clemency, then what will happen? with the work that he has done and plans to do, do any of you think that he will attempt to get himself released from prison?

i will say that now i am not as clear on this issue as i was before.

I'm not really worried about residual violence. I don't think that he's still an icon to that many men on the street who are in the "life". As for those in jail, this is not the first time they've killed some one in Marin County, they have it down to a SCIENCE. Every time there's an execution, it's on the Bay Area news in a special late night feature, and the radios cover it etc. We don't kill people as often as Texas, but enough that they've thought about what *could* happen in the rest of the population afterwards.

Regarding his Nobel prize nomination, just like any other award, many are called for nomination, but the chosen are few for the actual award......

Re: Please overlook typos and grammar issues I am in a rush...
 

When you put it this way, no, I do not feel comfortable with my founders being put on trial and held accountable for the actions of others.

I do not know enough about the case to know whether or not the evidence is circumstantial, but I do also think that perspective has a lot to do with this issue.

I also agree with you that there are people who look at BGLO's as gangs. Having worked with gang members, I know some of them look at it that way. However, we do positive things for our communities and have done so for years. I know that other gangs were founded in prison for protection from the Crips, Latin Kings, etc. They were not founded for the betterment of their communities but for protection from other gangs. While they put on the FRONT of trying to better communities, they're only doing so to continue their real work, which is illegal. While some members of our orgs do illegal things, that is not the basis of our foundings.

Re: i watched the bet special.....
 

Me either.

Re: i watched the bet special.....
 

You hit the nail on the head why I have a problem with it. I really do think that he's on death row for creating the crips than the murder he's accussed of. Yes he created a dangerous gang, but to hold him accountable for every single member of the crips who's committed a crime? I have a problem with that.

Re: Re: i watched the bet special.....
 

hubby and i were chatting about this last night. i am thinking that perhaps williams making a complete turn around and participating in the solution (writing books against ganglife, working with the naacp) and doing something to enhance the quality of life of our community (writing childrens books), is a significant way he is repaying for his crimes and contribution to gang life.

because our justice system is so flawed, when there are people who are actually doing what they are suppose to do as convicted felons of tookie's magnitude, perhaps the system doesnt know what to do with that 'energy' or in some cases doesnt want to invest in taking the time.

i do think that he is indirectly responsible. he created the vehicle by which many of our people have lost their lives and/or have contributed to our community's problems. he does and should bear that burden.

Urbanizd,
While I don't want him to be put to death, I think that due to the huge amount of publicity it has received (so folk doing crime may actually *know* about the execution, which is usually not the case) it just may deter some from at least being involved in activity that could lead to lives being lost.

I don't think that the death penalty is focused on bringing people back. I think it's moreso supposed to serve as a deterrent to others.

I have to acknowledge that what he started has been to the demise of AAs. Save one life possibly but how many have we lost?

Well, at least he did good things with his life iafter he was jailed. He has touched more lives than some people who die of natural causes ever will....in good ways and in not so good ways.