Serious help needed
 

Ok girls
I have a question that has been eating away at me...
Now this may sound superficial to many, please don't yell at me....
But, my sorority has worked hard to get our sorority back to being pretty good looking. Now what if there were all beautiful rushees you knew were going to pledge, and one that while you thought she was really sweet you were unsure bc of her appearance. I guess Im just worried about down the line on her letting in anyone because they are nice, or having no standards??? Does this make sense to anyone???? I know how evil I must sound but Im sure the same has crossed people's minds in the past. What should I do?????

If you like the sweet rushee, than I don't see any reason not to welcome her into your group. Personally, I would much rather be associated with a group known for their sweet, caring, and great personalities, than by their "pretty good looks."

I'm going to go ahead and third SigmaJoy, also, and DITTO to everything UCLAgirl said.

I absolutely understand that sororities want to upkeep a certain image. I don't think there is anything wrong with that! But if this girl is really, truly wonderful, then you ought to extend a bid. After all, when you're in the middle of a huge crisis, lying on the floor in a puddle of tears, you're going to take alot more comfort in her warmth and humor as opposed to luscious blond tresses or icy blue eyes... Don't you think?

As a PNM, I really want to be part of a group that's full of vivacious, talented, intelligent young women... and if the majority of them are good looking, well, that's just gravy, isn't it? :)

XOXO,
Annie.

Wow, Annie, that just rocked!

Yes, of course, appearance is truly important...and yes, wanting women who look their best and are physically attractive is important. It's important in the "real world" so of course it is important to sororities and fraternities. But, it may not be "important" in the ways you may expect it to be. Appearance is looking good--neat and clean clothing, no missing buttons, tears or rips ever. It's always putting your best face forward, sweaky clean, tasteful and neat makeup if you choose to wear it. It's general grooming, neat hair, a clean and sweet smelling person :).

Think about it, which is more attractive: a girl who looks like a supermodel with tons of makeup on and hems up to here and necklines plunging to there :eek:? Or is it a girl who looks pleasant, clean and neat at all times? If a girl shows through her appearance that she takes pride in herself, regardless of what genetics may or may not have given her, that rocks. It's the gorgeous girls and the plain janes who don't put their "best faces forward" that would concern me more than just a girl who's super sweet but not model-quality. Am I making sense?

A PNM may not be a beauty queen, but as long as she's well put together that's the most important thing for me. If she's not well put together, physically attractive or not, human nature tends to make you think less of her.

Christin

At my school, we've all kind of accepted that we're really big dorks, so there's isn't a single sorority that is *gorgeous.* Everyone has their really pretty members, their average members, etc. I agree with what everyone else has said so far - average looking shouldn't keep a girl from being considered for a bid.

I understand the importance of keeping up an image, but at the same time, peoples' looks can change so much. Speaking from personal experience, I know pictures of me from freshman year are pretty scary. :eek: Some people eventually stop taking care of themselves, and their looks may go down, while many others picked up pointers from their sisters along the way and looked even better than before!

One of the first things we did as a pledge class was have a makeover session (one of our sisters was a Mary Kay rep and was looking for practice, so we volunteered as a NM activity). Not only was it a lot of fun, but with a little makeup applied the right way, some of the average girls became gorgeous! Plus people like me who can't live without makeup got new tips and got to try new colors had fun too. :)

I'm not saying you should invite her into your chapter and try to change her right away, but after spending time with a large number of girls, stuff like that tends to rub off and suddenly everyone starts improving. My one sister turned me on to Ann Taylor, and I haven't looked back since. I taught another how to straighten her hair. We all pushed each other to work out (not in the hazing sort of way, but because we all wanted to - and everyone has those, "I don't want to go to the gym" days). Self-improvement is one of the biggest benefits of being in a sorority, in my opinion, and also the most fun!

I agree so much with AXOLiz. Yet sometimes it's hard to be nonjudgemental about appearances. (That's why I like your Mary Kay suggestion so much-fun and informative)

Beyond looks, beyond body type is the MOST important element of all-CLASS. It's something you can spot right away. The most beautiful woman in the world can open her mouth and suddenly she isn't so attractive anymore. I know we have all met people that initially we think-what's SHE doing with HIM or how did SHE end up in THAT GLO? I think in most cases, it boils down to having or not having class.

...........and you can't BUY it, you LIVE it!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.... And personality is a large part of beauty. Wouldn't you rather take girls who's inner beauty only adds to their outter beauty instead of girls who may be gorgeous on the outside, but who's personality only makes them ugly?

Ditto to everything that everyone else has said.

As long as she's not seriously unattractive (never showers, ratty clothes) and looks put-together then accept her based on whether you think she'll be a positive contributing member of you group.

oh wow i have to say that does sound really superficial.

:eek:

I have to agree with AOIIalum and AXOLiz. Not everyone is a beauty queen. Just because someone is "average looking" and doesn't look like Brittney Spears they should not be denied a bid based on that if they are truly a sweet person.

I'm sure most all fraternities and sororities were based on certain values and beliefs, and it's just my opinion that if they hold the same beliefs true to their heart, shouldn't that be enough?

I also have to agree with another earlier post saying the girls should reguarly shower and things like that, but why deny someone just because they don't have a modeling contract?

kia123,
I think in your heart you know what to do. Just think about this, when you're graduated and you want a trusted friend to read over your resume and coach you with practice questions for the interview, is it going to matter what that friend looks like?
It's sisters for life, not for four years.
violets

violets, I have to say you are one sweet, kind person. Your posts are as gentle as your name, violets.

very true justamom :)

It's amazing how people change in four years, and as others have said, being around people with a good eye for fashion can really wear off on you. I remember there was an older girl in my chapter who was a knock-out and was really trendy. I came across her freshman composite and almost fell over! She didn't look like the same person -- we're talking Coke bottle glasses and big bangs! But with a little help, she really blossomed.

I often kept that in the back of my mind during rush when I'd have ill thoughts about someone's appearance. Things do change with time. Remember, beauty is not permanant. I saw some of the most beautiful freshmen turn into toads by their senior year because they drank too much, went tanning too much, and lived on a junk-food diet.

The only thing that seems to sustain itself is a sense of humor and compassion - those things rarely change.

Definitely somewhat superficial, but we are girls, so... I understand!

Still, I agree with everyone else here... it is somewhat important to take looks into account, but it CAN NOT be the only thing. If my chapter had only judged girls on their looks in recruitment, I would have missed out on getting to know some of the sweetest, most intelligent women I know.

Also, I agree that you have to remember how much people can change. Look at some old pictures of yourself... I am sure you have grown and changed throughout college and the sorority experience. It may just be that this girl needs some friends who have confidence in her and can help her develop her own style. She could be a beauty in no time!

I must agree with everyone. If you think she's a great woman BID HER :D As someone else said, do you like to think the ONLY reason you got your bid is because you look a certain way ? I know I like to think I got chosen because the sisters saw something in me beyond my looks. They got to know me and saw something in me that Phi Sig could help enhance, and that I could help enhance Phi Sig. A sorority is about being there for each other, learning and experiencing things you may not have gotten the chance to otherwise, although it is fun to do, we are not just there to make the fraternity men drool.......

speaking from both sides, i have to agree with the rest of the posts, don't go based on looks. i consider myself to have a rather good personality and a good sense of humor. that's what my sisters saw in me when i rushed sigma kappa. other chapters didn't necessarily see that. aside from the not so great gpa, they saw someone who was overweight and maybe not always the most fashionable, but what does that have to do with it. the only good thing about my weight issue when it came to rush is that i was a prime candidate for anchor in puddle pull (tug of war, but you sit on the ground with your feet in pits, a miami u oh thing) and actually i was:D , sigma kappa won puddle pull when i was their anchor.

shelley j
sigma k

I agree with most of the reply posts that have been made.

Which girl would you rather have in your sorority:
- one that has been super involved all through high school, has a 4.0 gpa, has done 100+ hours of volunteer work, seems to be genuinely interested in your sorority, gets along with everyone, but might not have the "right look", or
- one that was in one organization during her freshman year in high school, has a 2.5 gpa, no volunteer work, seems like she can either take or leave your sorority, isn't liked much by the other girls, but looks like she could be a model.

I know that for most of us, we'd take the first girl over the second in an instant.

hey girls(and guys)
I really appreciate the advice, and I applaud members of Greek chat for not jumping down people's throats, even when they may have a different opinion, or what seems superficial. You are all great:)
With this girl, it's not only her looks, but her personality. I don't know how to describe it I mean she is sooo nice and tried really hard, But, she seems kind of dorky(she admits to having no friends and thats why she wants to join) That is what bothers me the most, Im worried bc I graduate this year about the girls she will give bids to(Im more worried about that than just giving her a bid) Does anyone know what I'm trying to say????I don't want it to have a snowball effect and a few years from now my sorority is full of unattractive people. I know there are soo many more important things in the world, and I upset myself soemtimes for worrying about this but I can't help it seeing how my pledge class turned things sooo around.
Thanks so much everyone this is a great site

question - do you want your sorority to survive. YES! of course you do. just b/c you have some girls who are "unattractiv" doesn't mean the chapter is going to hell in a hand basket. i understand your concerns. no friends now could mean she'll be alienated from the chapter or try to alienate others. but i was in the same boat she was when i joined. i didn't have any real friends at school and i wanted to be able to meet some cool people i could possibly become friends with. give her a chance.

shelley j
sigma k

how unattractive are we talking? is she going to seriously scare people?

Okay, now it sounds like the discussion is not about looks all of a sudden. But to me, this is a pretty cut-and-dry issue... you should give bids to people who you think will fit in and represent your organization well. You have to have faith that the younger members will continue to do so long after you are gone.

If you do not believe that she will contribute to the success of the chapter, and could very possibly hinder it, then you don't bid her. However, if you are just using that as an excuse because she is not the most "cool" girl, then you should give her a bid.

Do you and the other members of the chapter like her and enjoy her company, even though she isn't the "coolest" person? Bid her.

Do you feel sorry for her? Don't bid her.

There is a big difference between the two. Also, it depends how big your chapter is...if you have 150 people she might not make a dif one way or the other...if you have 25-30 people it might.

It really sucks that recruitments forces you to make judgements about people in a half hour, but it does, and I'm sure everyone on this board has shared your concerns at some point.

Regardless of appearance, if a woman is seriously lacking social skills, you really think about it. It's ok to not have friends when you first arrive on campus, but if your behavior is keeping you from having friends, a sorority won't necessarily solve that problem. But this woman does sound very eager to please, perhaps you could be a good influence on her!

It's a tough choice, good luck.

WOW
 

Well, at first I was disturbed, but then when I saw everyone's AWESOME advice, I was very impressed. I agree with you guys. Also, I know that when my roommate and her rho sigma group talked about going through recruitment, they were most impressed with the chapters that weren't all beauty queens. They immediately decided to cut XYZ because they were so filled with beauty queens that they were made to feel inferior, and they're all extremely cute girls!
Having all types is a good thing. Of course, if the girl didn't take care of herself or didn't take any pride in her appearance that's a different matter, and certainly I wouldn't take someone that the best feeling I had about them was pity.

I know the exact issue you're talking about. You could totally be on my campus. I went to an engineering school. If you've heard FuzzieAlum talk about her campus, we went to the same school. It's filled to the brim with, for lack of a nicer term, dorky people. I have embraced my dorkiness, so it's ok. :) When I joined, I was pretty dorky, by no definition "cute," I really didn't have many good friends and tried REALLY hard while rushing. The chapter (obviously) gave me a bid after rushing a few times, but by then, they had started to see that there was something worthwhile behind the awkward, super-nice but not cute person standing there. And, with the help of my sisters, I lost about 70 pounds or so, discovered classier clothes, and gained more confidence than I thought I ever could have. So a sorority can be GREAT for a average looking, semi-dorky PNM like myself.

-however-

My chapter, when they gave me a bid, was accepting pretty much anyone who was "nice" and interested in us and wanted to be a part of our chapter because no one wanted to hurt anyone's feelings and felt sorry for some of the girls. I realize this is probably why I got a bid. In the long run, that thinking has caused problems. Because of the girls we were getting, we were having image problems that are still an issue today (thought not as much). Many girls going through rush don't want to join a group that has a rep for taking everyone, or that is dorky, or is the "fat" sorority.

Rush is a quick way of making snap judgments on someone. While you're judging girls on appearance, they're judging *you* as well. It's how it goes. And while some people can look past superficial stuff, and I admire them for it, that's not always the case.

I saw the snowball effect in action. People tend to push for people who are like them, so a lot of the nice, quiet, dorky-type girls who had blossomed in our chapter looked for "project" new members who they wanted to help blossom. And I think it's wonderful that they wanted to help people grow, and I thank them for seeing that I could end up being a great asset. My sorority helped me SO much, and I'm grateful for the opportunity. However, for survival of the chapter as a whole, I'm the first one to stand up and say that "nice" and "trying hard" are not anywhere in our membership criteria, and I got really sick of hearing comments like, "She could grow SOOOO much here." I'm sorry, it's not all about what you can give to the new member, the new member also needs to contribute to the chapter.

Sororities survive because of their members, and each member makes a difference. While one or two less-than-perfect members probably won't make much of a difference, you can never tell who's going to end up doing what for the chapter. Just because a PNM wants you doesn't mean they're a good fit for your chapter. Period. I know now that I definitely would've thought twice before giving myself a bid.

I'm really sorry if I offended anyone, that wasn't my intention. I'm in the process of trying to help my chapter rebuild its image and its membership, so this is a bit of a sore subject with me. I realize when I get worked up, I don't necessarily think of the most tactful way of saying things, so I apologize in advance if I upset anyone. :(

p.s. alphaiota - I worked with a girl who's a tri-delt at Miami and she was talking about puddle pull. It sounds a lot like our rope pull. Congrats on your win!! :)

And I just realized in my rambling that I never said what I set out to say in the first place.

Your sorority can be great for this girl. She could blossom into an outstanding member before your eyes, no matter what she looks like. It can be a great experience like it was for me.

However, you always have to consider with each PNM whether they will be good for the chapter, no matter what they look like, what their personality is, etc. Each member has an effect. While a gorgeous yet heinously bitchy member will make your chapter look bad, so can members on the other extreme. That's why you have to really look at each new member as an individual to see how well they'll fit with your organization and its goals.

- edited because after posting a second time to say what I meant to say, I'm still typing-challenged :) -

yeah, we didn't really have girls who really wanted to be in our sorority so if they really showed interest and wanted it, we bid them usually. then again we closed b/c our membership numbers didn't stay up. goes to show you you do need to be careful of who you let in to your chapter. before i joined they did bid the beautiful girls exclusively, but by the time i got there they had lost so many girls to deactivation that they didn't care if they were pretty or not, they just wanted to say afloat.

shelley j
sigma k

AXOLiz, you, and I am sure others, judge yourself too harshly.
This is why I said what I think is important is "class". The problem with "class" is, it's a very subtle characteristic and doesn't show itself in an obvious way.
You can dress it up, make it up and change it up, but unless there is quality at the heart, nothing else matters.

EDITED-Had to differentiate my thoughts so Liz wouldn't think it was a run on!

Being spiteful and sarcastic and the first one with a commentary isn't personality.
Wearing Bebe and carrying Prada doesn't denote polish.

How you treat others and how you present yourself MENTALLY and hopefully, GRACIOUSLY are more important than all the BMWs or Cosmo nail polish colours in the world. Many have said they aren't a bit familiar with the person in their Freshman photos. You can ALWAYS improve the surface. It's very difficult to change what's inside.

I do sympathize with your dilema. If you are a lone voice, maybe others see wha you can not. If several of you feel the same way, then it would appear your problem is solved. Honestly, from a point of age and experience, I would say don't win the battle just to lose the war. There are more important issues than this girl's appearances that you will face in the future. Save your energy for the bigger battles.

My best advice would be to sit down and talk to this girl one on one, just you and her. Put aside looks, put aside first impressions, put it all aside. Sometimes people try so hard during rush because they don't know how else to act. If you make the effort to talk to her and get to know beyond what is physically there, perhaps you will see that this girl could be a real asset to your organization.

In all honesty, I know you are worried about the future of your organization, but you don't have that much control over that. Even the girls that seem to be the most like you can have completely different opinions on the growth of the sorority. Think about the here and now. While you are still active, do you think that this girl would be a contribution to your organization and that your organization would be a benefit to her? That's the real issue.

If you start there, then the rest should fall into place. She might not be someone to bid, but you don't know that unless you make that effort.

Kia,

Regarding what you said about this girl admitting she had "no friends"? Is she a freshman? If so, isn't it understandable that she's having a somewhat rough time juggling her emotions being away from home, and just needs some time to find her balance and go out and be social?

If she's NOT a freshman, then DISREGARD everything I just said!

XOXO,
Annie.