Poor ole Jeb
 

Jeb Bush's daugheter was caught with crack while in drug rehab and on probabtion.

See things like this piss me off. This was NOT her first time being caught with drugs. If you go to the CNN link for the article you will see at least 3 other stories about her and DUI and also being caught with various other drugs. She has NOT been reprimanded, other than to be placed in rehabilitation. We see how well THAT is working out, because she brings cocaine to the freaking rehab place! :mad:

You have to KNOW that people are arrested in drug stings in Tallahassee every DAY, sent to jail THAT NIGHT. Noelle? Oh, back to rehab for you, honey.

I cannot stand the Bushes! One of them is trying to get us all blown up, the other one can't keep his daughter off the blow.

*biting my conservative tongue*

LOL

Why? We haven't had a good debate on GC in what? A week? Let it go!!

http://www.plauder-smilies.de/devil/diablotin.gif

It might be one sided a lot of anti Bush people on here.

I'm not exactly the biggest Bush myself, but poor girl! A drug addiction is a hard thing for anyone to deal with, let alone with media scrutiny, and the expectations her family surely must have for her. That kind of pressure can be overwhelming.

You mean Bush Fan? lol

I like Bush the band.

Yeah, I did notice a lot of anti-Bush people chiming in to several threads taking a lot of cheap shots. So much for interfraternal courtesy to a fellow Greek.

Anyway you cut it we, the United States of America, were deliberately attacked in a cowardly fashion by an organized group who have declared a "holy war" on us. OK, so be it. Now is the time to support our President and Commander-in-Chief as he prosecutes this war in defense of our nation and people. You don't have to like him and you don't have to agree with him, but you do need to be "the loyal opposition" at least. Its easy to criticize but its a lot harder to be the guy who has to call the shots. We are at war and I support our President and I think his brother Jeb is pretty cool as well. He has some tough family problems to deal with but they are a private matter for the Governor and his family. I would expect that gentlemen do not intrude on each others private lives.

Um....

What state do YOU live in?

You think Jeb is "pretty cool"? Riiiiiiight.

No, I do not HAVE to be anyone's "loyal opposition". Does that even make sense? It is an oxymoron, unless you mean to be loyal in my opposition. In that case, I qualify big time, because I do not like OR support either Bush, never have, never will unless something drastic changes about them. And I am loyal to that.

Yes, drug addiction is tough, and I do sympathize with that aspect of this situation. But if any of you could see Noelle on the local news with her smirk and smug attitude about the whole thing, you might feel as pissed as me. Also the fact that she gets such preferential treatment. I see people picked up for the same thing everyday. Straight to jail, do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Besides, didn't Jeb watch Traffic?? Geez, lol.

Heh, well, I'm a big bush either, but yeah ... :o

[QUOTE]Originally posted by librasoul22
[B]

Um....

What state do YOU live in?

You think Jeb is "pretty cool"? Riiiiiiight.

No, I do not HAVE to be anyone's "loyal opposition". Does that even make sense? It is an oxymoron, unless you mean to be loyal in my opposition. In that case, I qualify big time, because I do not like OR support either Bush, never have, never will unless something drastic changes about them. And I am loyal to that.

*******

1. I live in Virginia.
2. Yes, I met Governor Bush on several occasions and was very positively impressed by him. He seems to me to be thoughtful in approach to serious matters, fun loving in approach to non-serious matters, unfailingly polite, widely informed and very well read, able to weigh alternatives and make decisions, a man of firm convictions, and very much a gentleman.
3. I do not know his daughter so I cannot comment based on any first hand information. If I had any information I would consider it personal, for, in my view, the incidental condition of daughterhood does not make one a "public figure". I leave that sort of media hype to "yellow journalists" who have never been confused with gentlemen.
4. "Loyal Opposition" is a British phrase which refers to the party or parties not currently in power and therefore "in opposition", but presumed to be unswerving in allegience to one's lawful sovereign or government, while at the same time being perfectly free to disagree with that government and propose alternative approaches. Former Representative Lindy Boggs (D-LA), in a speech given during one of her re-election campaigns, used the phrase but modified it for American useage by substituting "unswerving allegience to one's country".
The phrase is fairly common in usage and, I believe, generally understoot to be defined in this country according to Mrs. Boggs' interpretation. So, I suppose one can be a supporter of the current administration, a member of the loyal opposition, or a traitor.

Every family has skeletons in their collective closets. Even the best of parents cannot control everything with which their children gets involved. At some point, you have to let them grow up and make their own decisions and, unfortunately, sometimes they make destructive choices. I think Jeb and Columba are dealing with that right now. With so much emphasis placed on Nicole's drug problems, I think George Prescott Bush gets overshawdowed. He's out there doing good things - going to law school, trying to make a difference, being an advocate for Hispanic Americans. As a country, I think we tend to pay more attention to the negative and not reward the positives that are out there.

Yes, I live in Florida. Yes, I am a registered Republican. Yes, because we live in this wonderful democracy, we are allowed to have dissenting opinions. I just like to remind people that the Bushs are no different than any other family. You know there are people in your family that, if you were placed under the microscope, you wouldn't want to admit you were related to.

Just my opinion, but you know what they say about those... :)

George Stephanopolous wrote that the British have the perfect balance figured out. They have the Royal Family, on which the media feeds, and this allows Parliament to actually get governing done with minimal interference. That way, governance is not so much related to the personal lives of those who govern. In Britain, the Royal Family is all over the tabloids every day, and nobody really notices what the wives and children of the Ministers of Parliament do, or what the MPs themselves do, for that matter. Nor does anyone care. The MPs' job is to govern. That is it. The United States tries to squish it all together. We make the occupants of 1700 Pennsylvania Avenue its Royal Family, but we also expect them, and Congress, for that matter, to govern well while being paragons of excellence and moral uprightness.

Historically, the most successful Presidents (meaning those who have achieved the largest portion of their stated goals and/or led the country through turmoil, war, depression, etc.), the smartest Presidents, and the most morally upstanding Presidents have been entirely different men. There are very few who occupy spaces on two of those lists, and none who occupy all three.

Yes, Thomas Jefferson screwed around. So did JFK. But in Jefferson's time, nobody but the slaves he screwed, his wife (maybe), and the man himself knew what was going on after hours at Monticello. It wasn't polite to talk about those things, so even if a journalist got wind of this information, he'd most likely ignore it. In JFK's time, people still allowed their Presidents the freedom to be people on the side, as long as they got the job done. Only now is it coming out that Jefferson sired countless mulatto children and that Marilyn Monroe did a lot more with JFK than just sing "Happy Birthday."

But now our media thirst goes beyond how a man does his job and delves into how he lives his life. In this age of sensationalized "reality" TV, I fear that we as a society won't stop until we know how often the First Couple have sex and which positions they prefer. We as a nation need to decide what we want out of our leaders, because no one can be all things to all people. A President is a role model. If the so-called leader of the free world can get away with cheating on his wife, using cocaine, trading arms for hostages, or lying under oath about any of the above, then what are we supposed to tell our children?

Have no idea what happened to my real post, but it didn't quite work out... editted to try to recreate what was lost, lol.

Hmmm..so you are not in FL to see how JEB decimated the public school system, eliminated affirmative action in college admissions (which caused minority enrollment to drop), and uses our tax money to fund NINETY THREE trips for NON-business purposes? Okay then.

So is it right then for ANYONE to be in the newspaper when they are arrested for possession? Because it happens every day. Oops! Break out the hanky for Noelle! Just like Noelle is not a public figure just because of her relation to JEB, she is NOT above the law either.

I can tell from your wording that you are somewhat conservative, so I will not even attempt to discuss drug issues/disparities with you.

Guess that makes me a traitor huh? Um, no. a TRAITOR is:

one who, in breach of trust, delivers his country to an enemy, or yields up any fort or place intrusted to his defense, or surrenders an army or body of troops to the enemy, unless when vanquished; also, one who takes arms and levies war against his country; or one who aids an enemy in conquering his country...

Doesn't really apply to me.

Just because I am UNHAPPY with this country and UNHAPPY with its leadership, does not make me a traitor, sorry.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dekeguy
[B]I applaud you, dekeguy. I am proud to see an educated American voice on this board. You've said what I was thinking, but put it in an eloquent and much kinder way than I would have. Thank you.

Librasoul- It is very disenheartening to see people that hold the opinions and the character that you do in our country. Especially on a day like this. I refuse to get in any more petty immature battles on this board. My father has taught me many things about the division between liberals and conservatives that I have to accept. He has told me time and time again that he would love for me to marry any race as long as he was educated and Republican. And he is right. Republicans and Democrats have completely different ways of computing information. So I won't try to change the way you think. It isn't worth my time. It is so easy to criticize your president, but I think it arrogant to do so as you are not faced with protecting millions of lives daily, upholding this nations faith and principles.

I don't believe that any leader desires to bring his country into war, but it is a necessary evil in order to keep the peace and keep America, the country in which you so freely enjoy endless rights and benefits, as the greatest nation in the history of God's great earth.

Number one -- What on earth does race have to do with anything?? Why even bring that into this?

Number two -- This is not going to be a "petty immature" battle unless you make it one. This is a topic of discussion along with most other threads on GC. If my views affect your sensitivity, deal with it. No, do not try to change my views, but do try to offer up something constructive to appreciate your point of view. I would at least respect that. I do not respect your defensive posture and holier-than-thou attitude.

Number three -- Think I am arrogant for my post? Honestly. It has nothing at all to do with Democrat, Republican, Reform Party, Green Party, whatever. It has to do with the way that he runs this country, which I don't find to be particulary effective.

Number four -- Because dekeguy said something you agree with he is a "proud, educated American"? Because I offered a dissenting opinion, does that mean I am not? Just curious.

Also...war is NOT a necessary evil. And America is NOT the greatest nation ever. That is a short-sighted belief. Do you also believe that America was discovered by Columbus?

I live in Florida and support both Bushs.

The Florida public school system was in desperate disrepair long before Jeb ever took office. Trust me I attended one until my Junior year, and my sister graduated from one. I would say that this is one of those things that the ball has been rolling on for a LONG time. Not something you can place blame on any one Governor.

I personally believe that ending affirmative action in college admissions was a good thing. As a woman I am categorized in the minority. I would much rather be accepted to college, be offered a job, whatever... based on MY merritt and qualifications NOT on the fact that someone had to fill their quota. As for the number of enrollments dropping people should have to work for what they get - simple enough. I think you forgot that when he did this he also guaranteed the top 10% of all graduating classes in the state admission to a Florida univeristy, all you have to do is study.

Does anyone really want to start talking about the amount of trips Bill Clinton AND his family took on the American Tax Payer's dollar?? I mean he was the most travelled President in the history of this country. Were all those trips really necessary????

Democrats and Republicans just aren't necessarily that far apart on issues. There are people who switch parties, and "moderate" folks can be of either party.

I used to have a job typing letters to the editor, and wowee, did I ever get sick of letters from people at either end of the spectrum who were convinced that people who held differing beliefs were trying to bring America down or deliberately refusing to listen to the "truth." Yes, there are dogmatic and ignorant people, but they hold political beliefs all over the map. Likewise, there are articulate, thoughtful, open-minded people who hold widely varying beliefs.

I personally esteem anyone who can think of a president or any other politician as more than just "mine" or "bad." A politician may be a good private citizen or a bad one, an effective politician or an ineffective one, liberal, moderate or conservative, a fun guy at parties or a drag - and any of these qualities have little effect on the others. The politicians I agree with cluster into one part of the political spectrum; those I admire for their integrity are of a much wider swath of the political fabric. Yes, it's fun to make jokes about Dan Quayle's spelling, Bill Clinton's cheeseburgers, or George Bush's pretzel problems, but we have to remember that these are just jokes, primarily designed to make us feel better about "our" politicians. A great politician could be a crappy speller, a fast-food junkie, or a Heimlich recipient, and still be a great statesman. He might have a drug addict in the family or a beautiful model. But Jeb's family doesn't make education in Florida better or worse. Bush's family doesn't make his Iraq policy more or less sound.

Excellent points, AOTT Brandi. I, too, qualify as a minority, but hold the same beliefs. And I knew Clinton took many trips, but I didn't know he was the MOST traveled of all our presidents.

Librasoul, you've attacked Bush for taking "93 trips on our money." But now that we have learned this interesting fact, what say you? Or does this break down to only presidents that you approve of deserve vacations?

Ok, what makes you so sure that America is greater than all the other countries, empires, kingdoms and city-states that have ever existed in the history of mankind? I love America but I certainly wouldn't call it the greatest nation in the history of God's given earth.

I don't live in Florida so I know very little about Jeb Bush and his family life and I don't really care all that much either.

I do find it incredibly offensive though when posters like pbpck and dekeguy say that if you don't agree with the Bush administrator you are an uneducated traitor. One of the things that I love about our country is our ability as citizens to voice opinions about our government. This can be done with ballots, letters, protests, and by many other forms. Maybe I misread the definition of "loyal opposition" but I got the impression that if you don't agree with the current administration (whoever they may be, not just Bush) then shut up and smile cause it is your patriotic duty to present a united front. As for showing interfraternal support for Bush, well, I don't necessarily agree with my own sisters sometimes. Why should I support a guy who isn't in my organization just because he is greek?

Just a last minute thought, didn't Florida just have a contentious democratic primary? Maybe the democrats are pushing this in the media to cover their own election problems? The only reason I thought of this was because in the Massachusetts election, the democrats were all disorganized and instead of working to fix that, they focused their energy on attacking the republican candidate to cover their own problems.

(I am neither democrat nor republican, I like to criticize both)

First, for the record, I am not blaming Bush for the public schooling system. I AM blaming Bush for his voucher system which has proven detrimental to schools in my area. I have been a product of public schooling all of my life (a good deal of those years actually spent in Fla), and believe me, I know that the schools have always been poor. But vouchers are making things worse here, and those are solely a product of Bush.

pbpck? What say I? I say that no matter if one governor took trips or all of them did, does that make it right? Do YOU like to work so that our leaders can fly in their private jets to their favorite vacationing spots? I criticized Clinton for doing it and I am criticizing Bush for doing it. It really doesn't matter WHO it is, I will criticize it.

AOPi, you have presented a good argument. However, do you deny the existence of a glass ceiling? I am not saying that your hard work will not earn you what is rightfully yours. But discrimination does still exist and until it is eradicated, we will always need programs such as Affirmative Action to balance it out. Do not fall for the myth that these positions go to people who are UNDERqualified. In most instances, the posistions are filled by people of EQUAL qualification or higher.

And no, I didn't forget that wonderful "Talented Tenth" rule. I graduated with a 3.825 GPA in high school, with honors, and still was not in the top tenth of my class. So am I less deserving of that scholarship money? In essence, this rule is saying that there is 90% who do not deserve to go to college. Is that what you believe?

pbpck, I was hoping you would elaborate on your "greatest nation ever" comment.

Well said!

"I don't believe that any leader desires to bring his country into war, but it is a necessary evil in order to keep the peace and keep America, the country in which you so freely enjoy endless rights and benefits, as the greatest nation in the history of God's great earth."

--Whoa. The "greatest nation"? What information are you using to justify that? Like someone said, I love America, but we're not perfect, and hardly "the greatest nation".

I'm from Florida. To receive Bright Futures money, one must have a SAT score of at least 1200. Deny it if you want, but Blacks and Hispanics have lower scores for whatever reasons--economic, academic--whatever. Sometimes the best students don't score well. Should they be denied state money because of the proven score discrepancies? The original state system (which WASN'T broken, by the way) attempted to even the playing field. Now, the playing field is not even, and Florida's colleges and universities are suffering because of it.

Just because someone doesn't agree with your political ideology does NOT mean they're uneducated. Whoa.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lionlove
[B]

Ok, what makes you so sure that America is greater than all the other countries, empires, kingdoms and city-states that have ever existed in the history of mankind? I love America but I certainly wouldn't call it the greatest nation in the history of God's given earth. [B]

I will respond to you, lionlove and a quote by librasoul.

"And America is not the greatest nation ever" -LibraSoul:eek: Show me any other nation who would send relief to a country that they were at war with. Show me another country who shows the human compassion that we do, leading tolerance campaigns in a time of war. Show me another country who offers such economic mobility and opportunity. Show me any other country who allows it's citizens such freedom! We have become the international police and lender of the world. We are a young country who in current history has surpassed the economic thrust of any other country in so short a time. It saddens me deeply to see a US citizen state what you have just said. And who exactly do you believe is the greatest nation in the history of the world? How could you pledge the allegiance and sing the national anthem with this belief? I am not trying to attack you, but understand the rationale behind your thought process. Understand why you would question the greatness of your own country? Or is it just for argument's sake?


[B]
I do find it incredibly offensive though when posters like pbpck and dekeguy say that if you don't agree with the Bush administrator you are an uneducated traitor. One of the things that I love about our country is our ability as citizens to voice opinions about our government. [B]

Wow. It's great to be taken out of context. I don't want to speak for dekeguy, but as I interpreted, we both share the same idea. You certainly do not have to agree with all of Bush's policies. We are not condemning you for not being Republican. Even I don't full understand some of Bush's decisions. BUT I believe DURING A TIME OF WAR, a TIME WHEN OUR COUNTRY'S CITIZENS SHOULD FIND SOLIDARITY IN OUR FIGHT FOR SAFETY FOR ALL CITIZENS AND FREEDOM IN OUR COUNTRY, we should support our president. LibraSoul defined traitor. And by her definition, I do believe that it would be traitorous to stand in opposition to your president in wartime. I will hold it my duty as a proud citizen of his country to support my country's leader in his fight to protect my life and my freedom and the life and freedom of those that I love. To his abilities, President Bush is doing the best he can to protect his nation's safety.

I would like to question what LibraSoul would do in dealing with terrorist acts as she stated that war is not a necessary evil. If our country abstained from any wars, I highly doubt that our country would maintain the level of international power and respect it has today.

znteke, you were right. This is a one sided argument on this board. I am surprised though, how many liberal mided people there are on this board as I find that most greeks are rather conservative.

Again, words are being put in my mouth. I simply praised dekeguy for putting forth an educated, eloquent and positive opinion. To my knowledge, I never directly said anything about the rest of you all concerning your education level.

Hey Yo, if you think his son has not or does not do drugs at his age while living in Florida, going to college and being from SOUTH-FLORIDA at that, you're kidding yourself.

He may be doing good things and have this perfect image, but I'll bet all the money I have that he's not as clean as you make him out to be. Hell, the president has done cocaine in the past. His daughters were arrested for underage drinking and I'd bet it's safe to say that they've done some things that would be a stain on the family image. The thing with bush's son is the fact that he's smarter than his sister. Everyone has that person in their family where their stupid and get caught. The rest of family members just learn from their mistake and are more cautious.

I'm sure their are families out there that have members who do no drugs and never have, but those families more than likely don't even drink. Those members who do drink, probably don't do it to get trashed but rather only as a social thing.

Their family is from South Florida. That is pretty much a positive bet that there is others in their family that do drugs as well.

I'm a reg voter. I'm a republican. I do like Gov Bush. I was VERY involved in his campaign at the University of Florida. Yes, he has done somethings that I don't like but I'm happy with him leading our state, nobody is perfect. He's much better than that idiot Janet Reno.

I'm not admitting to doing drugs and I don't mean to sound like someone who is saying it's ok since we're from South-Florida, but I'll be the first to admit that I'm no angel. I've had my brush with the Florida Department of Law Enforcement and the DEA. I don't know ANY of my friends or frat brothers who are from West Palm Beach, Miami, Ft. Lauderdale or Boca Raton who have not had a run in with those agencies sometime in their life.

I'd like to know where you live in Florida and then where are you from........

UF

I'm a little bothered by talk of America being the greatest nation in the world. It's not that I have a problem with people being proud of their country, but I think it comes off as arrogant and is unnecessary. Why is it so important to consider a country the greatest ever? I think it's a silly thing to say, kind of like saying "I'm in the greatest sorority ever." Every country is different, and there are good and bad aspects of each and every one of them. Why must we pass judgment on what is the best? Why can't we just appreciate the differences and be proud of our country if we want without sounding like snobs? Saying that America is the greatest is, to me, a slap in the face to other countries.

I also am not so sure about the respect that other countries have for America. Yes, of course we are well respected by many, but we are also disliked by many, hated by many, and many view us as a big bully overstepping our bounds. I think that instead of folding our arms and saying "We're the greatest ever, nyah nyah," we may learn as a nation from listening to what others have to say about us, positive and negative -- especially negative.

Although I probably felt compelled to post because I agree with librasoul, I don't think that it is "traitorous to stand in opposition to your president in wartime." Librasoul is voicing an opinion, and I for one think that the freedom to voice an opinion is one of the most important freedoms we as Americans have. I would much rather hear people speak out against the government than have everyone standing behind it without thinking or questioning anything.

As for affirmative action, I think that it is only fair because it serves as an equalizing mechanism for people who were disadvantaged their whole lives through poverty or a substandard educational system. I remember reading a quote somewhere, but I can't remember who said it. It was something along the lines of affirmative action is just putting everyone on a level playing field -- just like you wouldn't expect someone to run a race with no shoes, how can you expect someone from a poor neighborhood with crappy schools to go to college and compete on equal footing with people who grew up in rich areas with excellent schools and many opportunities not afforded to many in poorer areas? Affirmative action is just giving those people shoes so they can compete. I think that it is our duty as a country to provide those shoes.

1. The fact that anyone could consider people who disagree wth the President and voice their opposition to be "traitors", and yet also consider themselves patriotic Americans is perplexing. "Our" forefathers fought and died so that we would all have EXACTLY that right. It is in doing so- criticizing our national leaders and/orpolicies -that we exercise what makes this country great. Anyone who would silence THOSE cries might as well rip up our constitution and bill of rights.

2. Noelle Bush- The media has as much right to publicise her life, as she and her family have to use their political power to ensure that she goes to rehab and not to jail. Neither action sounds particularly savory, does it?

3. I would support any action that I felt was sincerely directed towards ensuring that what happened 9-11 NEVER EVER happened again. Anyone in NYC, whether they were fortunate enough to have a bloody, dusty survivor come home to them or not, would agree to that. But our government is not doing that. Logic points to the "axis of evil" as being centered in Saudi Arabia and our government is doing NOTHING about it, because our President and VP have to protect all their oil buddies. After the overwhelming evidence we've seen of Saudi involvement in terrorist activities, war in Iraq seems like a red herring to me- the president ahs to look like he's doing SOMTHING doesn't he?

I LOVE this country. I have members of my family who put their life on the line for it every day. I love it not because of what it IS or has been, but because of what it WANTS to be, the vision of a democracy with justice and equality. You people who want to silence others threaten ALL of that.

I just have a couple of things to add...

AOIIBrandi - I agree whole-heartedly with what you have said. I couldn't have said it any better. I am the product of the Florida public school system, though my high school was one of the best in the district at the time. In the past few years, it has plumetted because all the good teachers left.

I just went to a guidance conference last week that was hosted by the State University System of Florida. One thing, the State University System of Florida actually guarantees admission to a state university to anyone who graduates in the top twenty percent of their high school graduation class (it's a program called the Talented Twenty). Now, that may not be UF or FSU, but it does get you in somewhere whether it be UNF, UWF, USF, UCF, FIU, FAU, etc. The fact of the matter is that they are limiting enrollment at places like UF and FSU because they have become bottom (undergraduate) heavy. They are trying to get back to the purposes of the larger state universities -- research, development, graduate study. It's a very transitional time for our state, but to say the education system has been run into the ground by Jeb alone is completely inaccurate. For example, Duval County has issues with their schools, but I place that blame squarely on the shoulders of the school board.

I live in Jacksonville, Pike. Some people call us South Georgia because we are one of the last really strong Republican strongholds in the state. Actually, George W. was here last year on September 11th. He makes visits here a lot, as does his brother. Jeb came out to support his son when the high school I teach at was playing his son in soccer. He doesn't get attention when he is being the good father, only when something goes wrong, which is unfortunate. I'm not saying I think George P. is innocent in any way, shape or form. All I am saying is that I would like to see our society value the good and not focus on the negative so much.

I'm not one to argue a bunch, because I realize people have a right to their own opinion, which, more than likely, I am not going to be able to change. I just wanted to pass along information that's relevant to the discussion.

I won't deny the existence of a glass ceiling, but I also believe that we have for the most part grown out of the need for affirmative action, or at least the way it is defined today. I also believe that AA breeds resentment (even among some minorities), and that this resentment can and will come back to bite us. I also know that we will not be truely equal until all applications are race and sex blind. I just don't like to depend on anyone for anything. If I do not get a job or admitted to my first choice college then I probably should have worked harder for what I wanted, or maybe it was just not meant to be. I cannot go around depending on or blaming the government.

When I graduated from HS I was not in the top 10th of my class, but I was still admitted to every state school I applied to. BTW, they were both research 1 institutions. I did qualify for the state scholarship award of $2500.00 /year (whatever it was called before bright futures), but I chose to go to school out of state. I did not have any other scholarships or grants so now I owe the government $30,000, but I have a college degree. What I learned from this is that my husband and I will work as hard as we can to make sure that WE provide for our future children's education.

Libra - You must have graduated from a small HS to have not been in the top 10th in your class. I would still think a 3.825 would earn you a scholarship from some source.

The beauty of this country is that it is founded on freedom. Remember life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness - property if you will. I have the right to go out and work as hard or as little as I like, and to be whatever I want to be. I can change my class despite what I was born into. All it takes is determination on MY part.

I think that's a nice thing to say, but is it really true? I don't know and I've never had to worry about it, because I was born into a middle class white family in the suburbs and had an excellent public school system. I have never been faced with these issues.

Sometimes I really doubt that it is in your power to change that much. For example, I had a client the other day whose mother was a drug dealer and who lived a life of complete poverty. She grew up with no parental support and guidance and as a result developed absolutely no self esteem. She fell in with a bad guy and is now looking at 4 years in prison because she picked up some crack for him, arguably not even knowing what it was because it was hidden inside another item. Does she have the power to change her class? What about the girl who grows up in the projects, sees her brother shot dead in gang warfare, whose mother is on drugs and who goes through a public school system so crappy they can't even afford books or stop the violence that occurs every day? How does she even know that there's anything else out there? How does she know that she can do it if nobody ever tells her that she can, or even that there is anything she can do differently from what she has seen her whole life? How can she compete against people like me and get into college?

Well, I grew up in a single parent household with my sister where my Mother had to work overtime to pay the bills leaving me to make dinner and do all the other things a parent would otherwise do. The great thing is that I had a mom who ALWAYS stressed that we could be anything we want to be and that college was NOT an option, but MANANTORY. Now I am proud to say as is she that my husband and I already make more than she ever has and YES we have changed classes.

My husband also has a similar story, so I would say that just because I include him in the equation does not make it any different.

I don't participate in conversations on affirmative action almost on general principle, BUT I had to comment:

AOPi, you sound very naive. Do you really think that we have anything approaching a level field in America? On any level? I assure you that when it comes to education that we do not. THere are a number of school districts that are suffering from de jure segregation STILL. And guess who gets the worse of the situation? Schools that are in minority neighborhoods in general suck. The chances of a black student in any city receiving the same education as a white student are slim. Some of the worst case scenarios are just mind boggling (suggested reading: ANYTHING by ARthur Kozol)- schools without books, schools where classes are taught in broomclosets.

Affirmative action is not needed only to redress historical wrongs, it is needed to ensure that there is anything approcahing parity in college admissions, not because black students are lazy or stupid, but because they simply do not have the same educational opportunities as whites, often enough that this is a major problem in the black community.

I tell this story often- I went to a Private, predominately white high school.My good friend went to a local public school. She was head of the student body, a straight A student, got good scores, and at the end had a college guidance counselor who referred her to a state school. Never a mention of a Harvard or a Yale because he did not even conceive that oneof his students could go there.

There is not parity. AA, in its most beneficial form, addresses that.

White women need not complain about it- you receive the benefits of AA and you don't really suffer any of the prejudices and setbacks that REAL minorities do.

Lovelyivy, I've agreed with everything you have said, but this comment sort of bothers me and that might partly be because I'm detecting some hostility. As a white woman, I've really not complained about anything, but believe me, in my field (law) in a town like Chicago where the legal community is very conservative, even white women face tons and tons of barriers, and maybe even more so because we're not appealing in that we don't add to a firm's minority count which is something that is usually publicized. We're just white women. Sometimes I think we fall through the cracks, although I'm not complaining at all, just making an observation.

I just have to comment on a couple things...

As a member of my high school's guidance department, I think that some of the responsibility for looking at different colleges has to be on the individual student. We've already had 7 colleges come to visit our senior class this year and many of them already have applications in at their first choice colleges and universities. The student should be an active participant in the college selection process, not a bystander.

I have read Kozol's Savage Inequalities and I realize that there is parity within the system, more so in certain areas. In the district in which I live, my alma mater (which was equally divided 50/50 when I went there) has had a steadily decreasing budget. My public school system had poured money into the schools in which there is a majority of miniority students. There are things being done to make the system better and more equal. Personally, I would like to see all of the schools receive equal money; that is the only way I think things will ever be completely fair.

Also, one thing I forgotten to mention before. Jeb has instituted something called the H.E.R.O.E.S scholarship. It allows children at schools which are failing them educationally to attend a private school in their area. If you are eligible for free lunch, you are eligible for the scholarship. It pays $3500 a year, which would cover most K-6 schools tuition. Just something to remember :)

Excuse me, but I am bitter.

IT seems like MANY white women I know are against aa. Why? Because they feel that they don't need it, and it makes them look bad. THere is never a consideration that there are a LOT of people who do need it.

I personally don't feel that I needed AA- I had an A in hs, and some of the highest scores in my class. I realised that despite this there would ALWAYS be people who would say that I achieved everything I have because of AA. But I realise that there are TOO MANY who need that program- and still receive no benefits (that's another argument entirely, about the EFFECTIVENESS of AA as it is practiced- which I believe is not significant). So for me to suggest that it be abolished simply because it is inconvenient for me is SELFISH. Plain ol selfish.

AOPi's post just brought all that up.

For the record, I am completely in favor of AA.

I don't mean to attack you, and I do apologize if it's coming off that way. I'm just old and bitter, lol.