Placing Blame
 

I thought Anniesigkap made an interesting point in another thread about the comments we make due to certain recruitment posts. Most of us love these recruitment threads...we cheer on the PNMs and are disappointed and supporting if they are dropped. However, maybe we should remember that we don't know these PNMs and we don't always know the inter-workings of the campuses and Greek Systems. We're only getting one side of the story and we should all know how crazy Recruitment is. Emotions are heightened and perceptions may be incorrect. It isn't fair to say "XYZ needs to re-think their recruitment process because Patty PNM was dropped!" Perhaps we can find a way to support the PNMs without placing blame.

I would never place blame on a house for cutting a girl without knowing both sides. I know that as wonderful as people could seem on here, when they go through rush they *COULD* (not saying that they ARE) be freaks, dorks, nasty or otherwise incompatible.
BUT, i don't think it's outside our scope to give criticism to stated rush tactics. I think that one sister for 2 PNMs isn't good rushing unless it is utterly, totally unavoidable. But with most schools having at least a semi-formal rush, numbers are more controlled and it's not like a house suddenly gets 100 pnm's storming in and only has 40 sisters to rush. And if there's other sisters helping with skits, etc. they shouldn't be in the room standing there, they should be helping with getting the skit ready. And whatever happened to "bumping"- having several sisters get to know PNMs??? While we don't know the case at the stated house, all sisters who are rushing PNMs should know that if they do happen to rush two girls at the same time, they should make a strong effort to equally involve both of them in the conversation. And in this case, it was PREF, which means the numbers were controlled, and it's also supposed to be a very personal, special event.
A chapter that rushes well makes EVERYONE want to come back. They're NICE to everyone and treat everyone the SAME! The chapters that did very well in return rates on my campus did so because they made ALL the rushees feel special and important.
Maybe this sorority needs to re-examine some of their rush tactics. I would strongly suggest it. I doubt that this was the only PNM who felt that uncomfortable.
Once again, i would never say just from talking with a rushee on here that any house that didn't take them is horrible, etc. Because we don't know that person in real life, just what they say on here. But there's no reason why I can't disagree with how she was rushed.

As a Rush Limbaugh fan... all I have to say is "DITTO"

I'm not saying you don't have a right to your opinon/right to disagree, however that's kind of my point...we only know how that particular PNM perceives how she was rushed.

Maybe the sisters standing around were waiting for the conversation to die down so they could begin a ceremony...maybe the sister that was talking to the two PNMs couldn't stop PNM #1 from talking or couldn't get PNM #2 to open up about herself...maybe there was a mix up and PNM #2 got picked up for Pref by someone who had only met PNM #1.

I've probably made assumptions too...I'm just suggesting that there are too many "maybes" to come to the conclusion that there is something wrong with a particular sorority's recruitment practices from the accounts of a PNM.

If a chapter had treated me like that, its members wouldn't have to worry about me darkening their door again. I'd mark them off my list as soon as that party was over. Of course, a chapter can't take every girl. But a chapter can and absolutely should be polite to every girl. They're nervous enough to begin with. I doubt TBSG will highly recommend formal rush to any unaffiliated friends of hers. Ignoring a PNM is bad manners, and bad for the Greek system as a whole.

I'm just glad that she had the courtesy and good graces not to say what house it was. She could've bashed them quite easily, but was a lady and kept it to herself. To us, they're an anonymous house. Maybe not-so-anonymous now with the seemingly retalitory post, if that was the house, which it seems to be. I definately think that she is better off not in that house if they made her feel so uncomfortable. And once again, i agree completely with silverblue.

I think you're both missing my original point, which is that this applies to any recruitment story, not just to TBSG.

And our point is that a chapter needs to rethink its recruitment process if an enthusiastic PNM leaves a party feeling terrible about herself. Regardless of the campus and the system, all actives should know they should talk to all rushees, answer their questions and not ignore them.

Leslie:

I see your point (as it applies to all of the Recruitment Threads, not just TBSG's thread).

Another point, however (which applies to TBSG's thread and ANY Recruitment Period at any chapter) is that when a collegiate is speaking with 2 PNMs at once, she should:
(1) be courteous enough to get both PNMs involved in the conversation, or
(2) (if one PNM just won't shut up) be certain that the PNM who didn't get much of a chance to speak because big-mouth wouldn't give way gets invited back SIMPLY due to the fact that conditions were beyond her control.

And may I just add (yes, this applies directly to TBSG's thread) that I understand AnnieSigKap's point about double-rushing....but THERE SHOULD NEVER BE DOUBLE RUSHING ON PREFERENCE NIGHT. There is simply no excuse for that, especially when other collegiate members can be seen floating in the background.

Leslie, you are right that we should all take these PNMs' Recruitment stories with a grain of salt....but like KillarneyRose said, I recognize poor recruitment skills when I see them. Maybe TBSG got released for some utterly different and legitimate reason...but even still, she should not have been subjected to such poor hostessing. It's just bad manners.

And while I'm on the TBSG subject ditto the comment about TBSG NOT dissing the chapter publicly by keeping it anonymous. THAT is good manners. Nuff said.

Off topic but our chapter did double preffing last year because a lot more ladies accepted our invitation to pref then in the previous years. There were no sisters just standing around and we made every effort to make every lady feel welcome and comfortable. It was just that situations beyond our control forced us to double pref.

Maybe I misread the thread, but I thought TBSG was not invited to pref.

Well said, imsohappythatiama. If any PNM leaves a party and feels bad, something is wrong. We don't know the entire story and that's fine. All we know is someone walked out of a sorority recruitment party and felt unwelcome. She may have been released for a good reason. She could have possibly been released because she didn't talk much at the party. If that could possibly be the case then she feels like she knows why--because her conversation was monopolized by another and when she got to speak her comments or questions were discounted by the sister paired with her. That should never happen. In addition, no PNM should even feel as if it happened. Period.

Yes, as Leslie pointed out, we should remember that emotions are heightened and perceptions really are affected during the process. We don't know how every campus works or how each chapter of each sorority is on every campus--even within our own organizations. Should we stop cheering on PNMs? Nope. Should we stop being supportive if the PNMs story doesn't turn out the way she expected? Nope. Should we not post a thought or a comment that may help the PNM through a rough time? Nope, as long as we do so respectfully. I think we as a group have consistently done so, but we don't hesitate to question or call out if something just doesn't sound right.

Do people get hurt during recruitment? Sure, on all sides. Do we know the PNMs who post on here? Most of the time, no. Is it fair to say that XYZ to change their recruitment because they dropped WendyPNM? No, of course not. I do think it's fair to say that XYZ should rethink their recruitment preparations because WendyPNM walked out of their party feeling like she wasn't welcome. There's a big difference, and I think that's the point many of us have been trying to make.

Christin

RockChalk, you're correct, she didn't get invited to pref. My bad. I don't think it matters THAT much though... this shouldn't happen at any party.

^ I don't think it really matters either, I just thought I was hallucinating when people brought up pref. :)

too many rush threads, we're getting them confused!

Not that i want there to be LESS rush threads :D

Christin, I would love to know where you rushed because in *my experience* no one feels comfortable, happy, and welcome in every, single party they attend. I totally understand where you are coming from...and in a perfect system, every PNM would be treated equally. However, in Recruitment-land, where sisters only meet girls for a few minutes in a thirty minute or less block of time, it is difficult and, yes oftentimes, unfair. In the TBSG case, I do think the situation was probably not the best recruiting...but I was not there so it is not fair for me to say, "XZY has bad rush tactics." That's all I'm saying!

For the same reason we warn the PNMs to be cautious in their posts, we should also be respectful to people reading these threads who come from the sororities and campuses in question.

As I've posted before, I was a COB pledge. I never got to have the formal experience as a PNM, but got it at the chapter and Panhellenic level as a collegian. I've also had it as an alumna adviser.

I don't think that I mentioned anything about "comfortable and happy" in my post--but I do believe that all PNMs should be made to feel welcome. Someone else posted about "common courtesy." That's it exactly, it's a common courtesy to make those PNMs invited to your home feel welcome.

There's no question that PNMs may not feel comfortable or particularly happy. Especially for PNMs on those campuses that require you to attend your max number of parties for which you have invites whether or not you want to return. In that situation, I think that the PNM should be courteous during her party in return. It happens, but when we read of that happening in recruitment threads the general response is along the lines of 'keep an open mind' and so forth, generally supportive and never any disparaging comments tend to follow such postings.

Quote:

For the same reason we warn the PNMs to be cautious in their posts, we should also be respectful to people reading these threads who come from the sororities and campuses in question.

There's no question about that. I honestly think most of us do that, I really do. But those who read the threads from those campuses should show the same respect in response.

Christin

I also feel like TBSG was very polite in not mentioning the sorority. I'm sure she was hurt and upset, and could have told us, but she didn't. She has every right to tell us how she felt at the party and how upset she was, we are the ones who called that chapter bad rushers, she never said it. All she did was tell us she was upset. She was genuinely looking forward to that party and she was let down. I think that we should be there for her and not criticize her, especially on her thread.

Very well said SigKapSundevil! I second all of it! :)

I don't disagree, PNM should be treated with courtesy. But just as all parties and all groups are different, so are those going thru recruitment. Two people with the exact same experience can have two completely different perceptions of it---one may hate it, one may love it. You may want to skydive---I never will! It is unfortunate that someone has a bad experience but....it happens. I have a firm belief that what should happen eventually does. And...it does no good to bash either side when you don't have all the facts. Just as you give consideration to the PNM, so should you to the group.

I don't disagree, PNM should be treated with courtesy. But just as all parties and all groups are different, so are those going thru recruitment. Two people with the exact same experience can have two completely different perceptions of it---one may hate it, one may love it. You may want to skydive---I never will! It is unfortunate that someone has a bad experience but....it happens. I have a firm belief that what should happen eventually does. And...it does no good to bash either side when you don't have all the facts. Just as you give consideration to the PNM, so should you to the group.

I do not know how many recruitments on how many different campuses you have attended but in my experience this happens on a regular basis, typically to the bottom rushing chapter (but that is not the only reason! It also happens when recruitment falls at a strange time members have classes, it's the Jewish high holy days in Sept, seniors decide they don't really have to come back for recruitment...)

It isn't the ideal but please don't make a blanket statement that the chapter is in the wrong. We all do not know the real reason why she was double-rushed or why anyone else is for that matter. Making an assumption that the other people she saw were sisters and did not have anyone else to rush is just that an assumption. They could have been alums, they could have been from another chapter being room fillers for a small chapter, or a million other reasons.

I thinks Leslie's whole point was, in my opinion, about assumptions and working off half the information.

Yes, I do understand Leslie's point and agree with it even, and the thread started heading in a different direction, which isn't a bad thing.

Yes we don't know the situation. Never said that we did. In my previous posts i've been careful to say that we DON'T know, but my opinion was if this WAS the truth.

Almost everyone on here agrees that 2 PNMs for one rushee is not a good rushing situation, especially when one of them dominates the entire conversation. And when there are extra sisters standing around.... And when there's no bumping involved!

These practices go against everything a rush manual will tell you, anything that you learn from your national consultants, rush chairs, etc.

I'm entitled to have the opinion (notice that the statement you quoted started with "i think"!) to say that this is bad rushing. Never did I say that I definately believed that the chapter did this. I said that IF this was this case, then it was bad rushing. No i wasn't there, yes situations could've arisen, but from all the information we have been given, this is my OPINION. And it's not an unpopular one at that, almost everyone has agreed.

And when i said about numbers being controlled, in MOST rush situations you do know how many PNMs are coming to a party, and you should do your best to prepare to rush them properly.

"I think" and "most" are not words that belong in a blanket statement, I did not issue a blanket statement.

I never said that these girls were bad people, or evil, or anything else like that. BAD RUSHING is not a cardinal sin (well, some national officers might disagree). I'm not damning these girls to hell. I'm commenting that this was not a good display of rushing skills, IF IT DID HAPPEN. Anyone who DOES think this was good rushing needs to check a rush manual, because anytime a rushee leaves feeling like TBSG did, something was done wrong! See Killarney's posts on the other thread.

Yes, it was Aphigal, thank you. My point was also to take the discussion/argument off of TBSG's thread and hopefully open the conversation up as a generalization...but apparently that didn't work.

I think doubleblue&gold made two important statements:
1) (Every) PNM should be treated with courtesy.
2) Just as you give consideration to the PNM, so should you to the group.

I haven't read the TBSG thread yet, but I just wanted to throw in my $.02 about double-rushing here. My chapter is ususally working with 18-20 sisters at the most going into formal recruitment. During the first and second round, there are usually about around 25-30 girls per party. In this case, having 1-on-1 contact with a pmn is impossible. We've had even rounds where it was 3 pmns on 1 sister, which was completely out of our control. It's nothing against these girls and it's really hard to try to carry a conversation with 2 or 3 people at once and try to form an opinion about each individually, but sometimes that's the only way you can do it. We would be thrilled if we had enough sisters so that we didn't have to do this "bad rushing," as you put it, but in our situation and in many small chapters' situations, there is no way around it.

Ok, I'm off to read the TBSG thread now to see what the setup for this thread was...

I don't want to call anyone a bad rusher, and of course I don't have both sides of the story. But I think the point being made here about "bad rushing tactics" is that, if doubling up can be avoided then there is no reason to do it. If there were girls just hanging around doing nothing, well there is no need for that. Of course there will be situatuions where doubling-up is unavoidable. Instead of getting all in a huff about it. We should just drop it. TBSG never said anything about these girls being abd rushers. She just told us how upset she was, and what her situation from hger perspective was. We will most likely never get the other side of the story. Hopefully if mistakes were made we have all learned something from it.

I don't think that double rushing is "bad rushing" on the part of the chapter. Double rushing is extremely common at UCF where we have close to one thousand girls going through recruitment. With nine sororities on campus that contain 100-180 girls in the chapter, double rushing will occur. Not the chapter's fault but maybe panhellenic can add more parties and divide the PNM's up among that. There is a lot of work that goes into double rushing. If a chapter fails to keep both PNM's involved in the conversation, then that is the fault of the chapter. If the chapter has to double rush, that is not the fault of the chapter.

I don't think anyone has criticized a situation like DWAlphaGam described - if you have a smaller chapter at a big rush school it's going to happen. There are methods to make it work. Plus you do need to see at some point how the PNM's interact with EACH OTHER - if you have 30 sisters and take a 30 person pledge class, it's essential that the pledges get along with each other since they are immediately going to be half of the sorority.

The thing that made people upset in the TBSG thread specifically was a situation (in her eyes) where there were available sisters there and PNM's were being ignored. That's like when I go into McDonald's and the clerk takes her time alphabetizing the ketchup packets before she waits on me. Just as the customer is your first priority, that PNM should be your first priority. Yes you will occasionally get in a jam with a gabby PNM or a nervous sister - but at a school like Truman that has lots of girls going through I am assuming all chapters employ rush workshops over the summer. Those should be used to make sure everyone in the chapter knows the correct tactics to handle situations like these.

Ok, I read the TBSG thread and if what she was saying about people standing around was true, then yes, that wasn't a good move on the sorority's part, so sorry if I was a little testy before. Keep in mind, however, that this is a one-sided story and that a pmn has no idea what goes on behind the scenes of recruitment on the members' side. I'm sure there are things that pmns are confused about when they are going through recruitment that make perfect sense to the sisters (I was a COB, so I'm just taking a guess at that). It is quite possible that the sisters she saw had a specific task to do, or that they were waiting to bump, etc. So basically, I agree with Leslie, we can't jump down a chapter's throat after hearing one side of the story. Yes, we can sympathize with the pmn and we can hope that she eventually finds her place, but sometimes things happen for reasons that we don't know about.

Again, in *her eyes* they may have just been standing around, but we don't know what they were doing. Maybe they were alums, maybe they were floaters, maybe they were preparing for a different activity. Too many maybes to make an accurate judgement call about the recruitment skills of that chapter.

Since I'm not in a sorority I can't begin to say how the whole rush thing works but here's what I've been thinking.

If there are only 4 groups with 2 PNMs on a active and all the rest are one-on-one why can't there be a trade off if there aren't enough actives to go around? Me and Suzie will talk one-on-one for 10 minutes and then another PNM would was one-on-one will talk as a 3 person group while another 3 person group could go invidiual for a few minutes? Does this make any clear sense? It just doesn't seem right when at least 90% of the PNMs were able to be open and freely talk one-on-one while the other 10% of us were trying to fight for time to talk. I would just think that maybe a little trade off would combat that. Start as a 3-person group then go to one-on-one and vice-versa.

I understand the whole lets see how potential new sisters can get along together, but when you are still in the stage of getting to know someone, it just makes things really complicated and difficult. I know that when I left that party a few girls had commented on how it made them feel being 2 on 1. Like me, they felt they hardly got to talk or say anything.

I realize that some actives were walking around passing out desserts but when I'd turn around it just seemed like 5-7 girls were standing around talking.

I'm not trying to be rude, just saying that if this situation can't be avoided there should be ways to make everyone feel special.

TBSG.....
 

It's not rude to question what you don't understand. Unfortunately, there's no way you can until you've lived it from both sides

Formal recruitment isn't perfect and it's not the only way. My group had more success in COB until this year when we almost doubled our numbers.

Also there are many times that there may be people on the floor that can't rush.....it depends on the rules from Panhellenic. While it may look like there are extras, they may be just there to look good number wise.

And no matter what my fellow GC's say, there is no way that everyone can feel special during formal recruitment. It would be nice but that's pretty idealistic. Also, we also can be devastated that women didn't return to our parties thaat we wanted to. There can be hurt and sadness on both sides.

I know that doesn't help you. Your next step is to decide whether you still have an interest and pursue it, or become involved on campus elsewhere. Good Luck, whatever you decide.

TBSG.....
 

It's not rude to question what you don't understand. Unfortunately, there's no way you can until you've lived it from both sides

Formal recruitment isn't perfect and it's not the only way. My group had more success in COB until this year when we almost doubled our numbers.

Also there are many times that there may be people on the floor that can't rush.....it depends on the rules from Panhellenic. While it may look like there are extras, they may be just there to look good number wise.

And no matter what my fellow GC's say, there is no way that everyone can feel special during formal recruitment. It would be nice but that's pretty idealistic. Also, we also can be devastated that women didn't return to our parties thaat we wanted to. There can be hurt and sadness on both sides.

I know that doesn't help you. Your next step is to decide whether you still have an interest and pursue it, or become involved on campus elsewhere. Good Luck, whatever you decide.

Yeah, rushees will get hurt, but I think there are some kind of hurts we can prevent. Let's imagine you are a pretty undesirable rushee. Your grades are a 2.4, so you'll probably get cut for those. No activities. You redefine the word ugly, your clothes are hideous, you have no sense of humor, and you always talk too loud. Plus, you've got this BO problem.

So, right, you might feel like you don't belong at a rush party. You might be disappointed when you get cut. Those kind of hurts the chapter can't do much about (except by not cutting you).

BUT - the chapter still owes it to you to a) talk to you politely b) not make comments or make it obvious how they feel about you c) show you the same consideration during the party they would to any other rushee.

I actually knew a woman a lot like that who came to several pre-rush functions. She had a best friend who was a great woman and very desirable, and only she ended up rushing. But you can bet that when it came time for her to choose a house, she remembered with special consideration those that were kind to her friend!

The bottom line is-these young ladies are a GUEST in you HOME and should be treated as such. After all-YOU INVITED THEM!

TBSG-No one can know how YOU felt, so I will not even try to guess or comment on your particular experience. However, I think your rotation suggestion is worthy of a closer look.

Some points made in various posts-
Some girls ARE poor "rushers". Some rushers ARE horrid. I would bet in every chapter there is at least ONE that could eat those PNMs alive! God pity the PNM who gets stuck with her because NO girl could live up to her standards and she is sure to blast her during discussion. THAT's why rotation is so important.

Inexperience-Can't get around this one. This is equally difficult for the PNM because there's no way to be on if you're talking to a piece of wood.

It appears obvious from enna's,UGa, now TBSG's thread SOMETHING needs to improve! Whatever you can do inhouse should be a priority because getting anything changed on a bigger level may NEVER happen.

GC is as great a place as any for a girl to come seeking advice and support. I honestly feel in our efforts to present the positive, we gloss over the negative. Part of the problem is-by the time they find GC, it's too late to make any meaningful changes. Grades, activities and personalities (Bubble quality) are set in stone. I think WE should be careful too. When a PNM posts, "I don't know, the active and I just didn't click." I want to tell her-GET READY TO BE CUT. (That was the ONE thing my daughter always mentioned when she said she thought she would get cut.) If I said somethig like that,I'd be blasted!
We must openly admit to these young girls
that there IS an ugly/dirty side to rush, great girls get cut, YOU COULD TOO!