"I wish I had been hazed."
 

After Thanksgiving dinner, an extended relative who is newly initiated into an NPC sorority mentioned that she wishes she had been hazed. A lot of thoughts came to mind, and I hope I handled it well, without sounding a thousand years old. I know that it's said that anything a New Member must do but an Active does not is considered hazing, but I throw out these thoughts for discussion:

-Many people will say that having to get a pledge book signed or "clean" scavenger hunts aren't really hazing. Are they?

-Are study hours hazing?

-How about alcohol consumption, ie Keg Stands?

These are simply jumping off points. Any thoughts?

I do think in our effort to be safe we have taken a lot of the fun "rights of passage" out of the process. I am never a fan of the slippery slope defense so I think NPC should set a bunch of rules to define hazing in a way that is both practical and safe. Alcohol in any pledge related situation? No. Requiring members to be able to name the founders? Why not? Pledge kidnap that doesn't involve missing classes? What's the harm? Phone duty helped is get to know the actives. Why is that bad?

Anything that forces a new member to drink alcohol is hazing in my book. I don't think doing things that has them get to know each other or the chapter is bad- for example we had a night where we did off-the-cuff skits that we performed for the active members. Now that is probably hazing. At the time it was a great way to get to know other members of our pledge class and the actives got to know us. We also had a night where we visited all the seniors in groups. We spent about 10 minutes at each of the stops. It was a great way to get to know them and them to know us. I think that is forbidden now as well.

We had to:

1. Memorize the actives names, hometowns, majors and grade. Boyfriend/fiancée if applicable.
2. Memorize the creed, motto, founders, greek alphabet and the pins/greek letters/colors and flower of every sorority on campus
3. Complete required proctored study hall hours
4. Do phone duty for about 5 hours in the evening during the first semester
5. Get a wooden dagger signed by all of the members prior to initiation. The members couldn't make us "do" anything for the signature, but we did have to go to ask them, which helped us meet those last few seniors we hadn't met during pledging.

This is now considered hazing, but it served a great purpose. We knew everyone's background/major early in the semester, we put in some significant quiet study hours and it really encouraged freshmen to spend time at the house, we got to know all of the members and spoke to them personally, and my dagger is still a beloved possession.

Alcohol and boy/fraternity/party requirements should still be considered hazing, but learning about members and glo history should still be required. As an advisor, working with members who couldn't recite our creed or purpose was just sad. Not every requirement is hazing and shouldn't be considered so. But then, I am a dinosaur.

I had to do the same things (well, a diamond, not a dagger), and was held up by our EO as an example of hazing. I also think that a 6-8 week New Member period is entirely too short, not properly allowing the New Member to really know the history or other significance of the sorority/fraternity.

Completely agree, and I tried to convey the same to the New Initiate!

Pledge book? Not hazing.
Clean scavenger hunts? Not hazing.
Know the sisters by name? Not hazing. But I'd probably limit it to one class in a chapter of 400 members. My chapter is now about 100; that's probably the limit for knowing by name or nickname. I did have to get signatures from all the sisters, but there were only about 20, and whether or not it was prohibited (I don't think it was *necessary*), was not required to do anything but as for the signature.

My favorite activity from my collegiate days was a big/little reveal where a pledge stepped off the elevator to find a tag with her name on it. Attached to that tag were yards and yards, perhaps hundreds of yards, of yarn/string/cord/twine, tangled in with others' strings, leading her to little clues and gifts, and eventually to her big in the chapter room. That's no longer done because "someone" "might" consider it hazing. No one was humiliated. No one was harmed. No one was forced into anything. Not hazing.

We've gone overboard.

I had a very similar pledgeship to Katmandu and Honeychile, except wooden crown. We also had to know fraternity pins and Greek letters of the fraternities on campus and their nicknames.

I didn't like the mass movement to shortened pledgeship and I still don't. I think it short changes the new member and the org. I wonder if it has anything to do with a rise in members dropping and I once again commend XO for not conforming with the rest of us.

A lot of the activities you all are mentioning are NOT hazing and I, too, am annoyed how we've watered down so much of our new member experience.

Do you want to talk about being REQUIRED to memorize stuff?? You don't even want to know about what I had to memorize for firefighter academy. :mad: I imagine that our GC military members, nurses, doctors, lawyers, etc had similarly heinous memorization tasks.

Being asked to learn and understand an organization's vision, history and members is not hazing. Throwing the baby out with the bath water......

It is a fine line.

I pledged a local and was required to do certain things that could be considered hazing. For example, the pledges (yup, pledges, not new members) had to do a pledge project, which was planning and preparing a meal - but we also got to join our sisters in eating the meal itself, rather than being just waitresses. Alcohol, OTOH, was a strict no-no - neither pledges nor actives were allowed to wear letters or any insignia anywhere alcohol could be consumed, even if we weren't actually consuming it, and a lot of my sisters didn't even drink. We were treated as "almost but not quite actives" from day one, and we were never made to do anything degrading or humiliating.

Once we became a colony of AEPhi, every member was required to pass a test before initiation. The test questions included the sorority's colors, flower, mascot, founders' names, things every member should know. NMs could take the test as often as necessary to pass (defined as a 100% score), and a sister would always sit the test with the NM class to avoid allegations of making the NMs do something the sisters didn't have to do. But a simple test of basic knowledge is not hazing in my book.

When I pledged in 2004, the (extremely fun!) things we did together as a pledge class which are now considered hazing include:
- We participated in a scavenger hunt around campus with questions to help us learn about the sorority. No items needed to be collected; we only answered questions and received a clue to find the next sister along the way
- We cooked a meal together, with the help of our Bigs, for the active sisters and our sweetheart
- We planned and put into action a (small) fundraiser
- We planned and participated in a philanthropic event (we volunteered at a dance for mentally challenged teenagers/young adults.. and had a blast doing it!)

The only thing that has survived is the New Member test, which sisters nationwide have to take and pass in order to be initiated.

In my opinion, the last two things on my list above should never be restricted or considered hazing. These things allowed us to work together as a pledge class, run our own business meetings in a more formal manner, hold positions to manage projects, and see what work the sorority would entail.

I was a full semester pledge. Had to do many of the same things as Katmandu. We had a pledge notebook instead of a dagger which each collegiate member had to sign. One of our first pledge tests was to name every member of our pledge class, the next week we had to name every collegiate member. Wasn't that hard at the time since the early '70's were not a good time for the Greek system. My pledge class only had 14 members and there were only 25 collegiate members. Learning the names of all 400 collegiates at some chapters today would be a very arduous task.

We had to also do a philanthropy project as a pledge class. We made coloring books for our National Philanthropy. Another requirement was to put on a party for the collegiate members. We needed money to do that so we stole the pillows of in-house girls and the car keys for the commuters. They had to buy them back. We also went around to all of the fraternities selling stale donuts that had been donated to us.

My best friend/pledge sister and I still laugh about the bonding that went on in our pledge class as we worked together.

DaffyKD

And it doesn't seem to be hurting XO one bit! I don't like the shortened pledgeship either. I proctored our New Member exam last time for the chapter I advise and there were so many NMs who had to be prompted, because they hadn't had time to learn/memorize and some that acted like it was a huge hassle/joke.

I can't remember all the stuff that happened when I was a (full semester!) pledge but I definitely remember being woken up at 5 am with the rest of my class to run down fraternity row and serenade all the fraternities one by one. We also had "fun" scavenger hunts and were "kidnapped" (also fun) and during Inspiration Week just before initiation, we had to carry around a number of items (our paddle, some candy, a few other things I can't remember) and if we were stopped by a sister, we had to produce them if requested. It was all in fun, I would never say any of this was hazing (well, maybe having to be seen with no makeup and bed head at 5 am by fraternity guys :o) but I guess it's considered hazing now.

I never felt that I was hazed. We were always treated respectfully, never demeaned, nor did I ever see any older sister haze anyone. There were never any alcohol-related demands/challenges, etc.

I think several of the things we had to do as a pledge class would now be considered hazing, because they were only required of pledges, or were just unwise. We had to complete an activity from each of our creed categories of Love, Labor, Learning, and Loyalty. We could choose from a recommended list. For Labor, I remember that we polished the silver one Saturday afternoon (as a chapter founded in 1882, we had a lot of silver!). For Loyalty, we did something as a pledge class that would promote bonding, so we tried to "steal" a composite from a fraternity (that was a Michigan tradition...if you can make off with a fraternity's composite, you call and tell them and they have to come serenade the sorority to get it back. If you get caught, the traditional punishment was getting thrown in the shower -- fully clothed, of course. That happened to me at Psi U...we were on our way out the front door when we got caught. This was not just for pledges -- this was popular for anyone.). I'm sure that would be considered hazing or inappropriate/unsafe for anyone now, because people were sneaking around like burglars.

FOR THE MANY TEACHERS OUT THERE!!!
 

When I was in sixth grade in SW PA, our history teacher was an LSU graduate. We had to learn the Greek Alphabet both forwards and backwards because, "Y'all are going need to know it in college!"

Imagine the look of shock on Bid Day, when the sisters started singing the Alphabet song, and I could keep up with them!

Mine was quite similar to many of the pledgeships in this thread. Get an interview with sister, have a coke date with sister (these ruled because they fed you for free) and the sister wrote a little welcome paragraph to you in your pledge book. Like DG Tess said, I would never expect pledges in a huge chapter to get everyone....maybe the pledge mom could divvy them up.

We had to achieve 25 points in each of our 4 aims (example: getting an A on a test - 2 pounts in the intellectual aim) and there were a lot of options to choose from. Many were tjings we were doing anyway.

We had to make something for the chapter room and put together the semesterly blind date party.

Along with the usual history stuff, we also had to interview the officers where they told us what all their position entailed. We also had to get 10 signatures from every fraternity and sorority on campus.

Pretty much every sorority on campus had a similar program, only difference was ummm...how hardcore you got. We were definitely on the easy side.

There is not a single thing in that list that I couldn't say had a reason behind it, everything was about learning about your sisters, your org and the campus Greek community, and the fact that any of it would be considered "hazing" is asinine.

It doesn't make sense...rush is all about clicking with other people and "pick the group you can see yourself in your pajamas with"...personal connections. Then the minute they get a bid, we flip the script and give them a sterile, cookie cutter program that has nothing to do with those women who were the main reason they joined. Doesn't make sense to me.

ETA: forcing someone to drink or do anything alcohol related is hazing. A dry pledgeship is also hazing. "All our pledges are underage" doesn't cut it if there are underage sisters who drink. The denial of drinking is because they're underage, not because they're pledges.

Re fraternities, we used to be required to go to mixers for at least half an hour. If you honestly are so misanthropic that you can't stand to socialize for half an hour, you are going to have a very difficult time in the work world.

My A Phi O pledgeship was WAY harder than my ASA pledgeship.

Coming out of lurkdom because this thread conjures up so many fun memories (and because my oldest of three daughters is going through recruitment in January--sorority life is on the brain).

During my pledgeship in the early 90s, we had required study hours, scavenger hunts (had to fill up a bag full of ivy), and tests. We were not allowed in the chapter room at that time. This made it very special once we went to our first "formal" meeting after initiation. Pledgeship lasted from the beginning of school til just before Thanksgiving if memory serves me. I was at the house constantly because I had a scary potluck roomie in the dorms who was doing drugs. I met a ton of sisters who took me under their wing, even coming to get me from a scary fraternity party when I called the house. There was no alcohol involved at any time. Our big sisters gave us decorated paddles at initiation.

I was the pledge trainer (now called fraternity educator) myself and supervised all kinds of fun things that might now be considered hazing like intricate big sister reveals, participating in Phi Psi Field Day as a pledge class, etc. The memories are so wonderful.

I am very sad that activities that create such a deep bonding experience are now being shuttled. I don't think we even got our big sisters until a month or so into our pledgeships!

Alpha Phi

So, for those who "had to" get signatures, learn info about members, etc. what happened if you didn't get a couple from sisters who were never around? What did you think would happen to you? What actually happened to you? How did they prevent sisters from making you do things to get the signature?

You all realize there is no such thing as phone duty, right? Cell phones=No house phone!

I was in a service sorority, but we had to get signatures. The actives could ask us questions about the history, or Greek alphabet, or the song. If an active was never around, or balked at signing books, the pledge trainer would talk to her. If that didn't work, we were told not to worry about her signature.

I never knew of anyone who did not get all their signatures.

The sisters who weren't around (usually student teaching) coordinated with the pledge mom when they would be available. The "3 meetings" thing was not hard and fast, it was up to the sister.

I thought initiation might get delayed or something. In reality nothing happened. My pledge mom was the kind of person who made you want to put your heart and soul in it to make her proud.

The worst thing any sister "made" us do was introducing ourselves to someone we didn't know to get the signature. Oooh, how awful. Our sisters wanted us to be more outgoing and meet people who were important to them. What an onerous burden.

I think this is the route most groups went. The general rule that I would hear after we made these changes was "As long as the active sisters are required to do the same thing, it's ok." For example:

- New members making dinner by themselves for everyone to enjoy: not OK. New members and actives all making dinner together for everyone to enjoy: OK
- New members planning a philanthropic event and taking part in it on their own: not OK. New members being required to participate in the philanthropic events held by the chapter: OK

Basically, there's more integration and requiring new members to take part in the same activities of the active sisters (which isn't a bad thing). But basically ANYTHING extra that you ask of the new members is "hazing".

It's disappointing, but I can also understand the want to eliminate as much of the gray area as possible. That being said, I still can't see the logic behind the terminology changing and new member (pledge!) periods being shortened.

That's good. That's not what I've witnessed. I've witnessed much, much worse, especially back in the 80s.

Oh, so did I. But I didn't join a chapter full of a-holes. Forcing an entire system to become a watered down version of itself because a tiny fraction of its members are a-holes is like when the teacher punishes everyone because of what one kid did - and that didn't work either.

And on a side note, I know I've told this story before, but the ultimate result of this overcompensation came in the person of a girl who was briefly pledging my chapter several years after I graduated. At the time all pledges on campus were required to attend (I think it was a daylong) hazing workshop. She pointed out that since only pledges were doing it, and were forced to do it under threat of being depledged, the workshop itself was hazing. Pedantic maybe, but going by the standards they'd been told, she was absolutely right.

My rule of thumb is that the Alpha Phi Omega pledging process should be *less* stressful than a class. So requiring a pledge to be at an hour long pledge meeting *and* a two hour brotherhood meeting is fine. The national information to be learned should rarely exceed what is in the pledge manual (which is publicly available) and an equivalent chapter manual for which the pledges should be responsible for the same amount or less for memorization than the National Pledge Manual.

I know brothers who have been blind and I've known brothers in motorized wheelchairs (who actually had more control of their feet than their arms/hands). Nothing in the pledge process should exclude people with those characteristics, or at worst reasonable accommidations(sp?) should be made.

Note, since I am *horrible* with names and faces, there are chapters of my fraternity where I would have passed the requirements (and as it happens, I might not have become a brother if Alpha Phi Omega allowed blackballing)

As for Brother signatures, I'm fine with the concept as long as a brother refusing to sign/interview does not become an effective blackball. And I'm fine with having the pledges make something to be signed as long as it takes less than a pledge meeting to make.

As for Alcohol, obey the law and the same rules on identification that the brothers/sisters do. However I'm also a little hesitant of having a pledge kicked out if they are 21, are not in letters and not at an event mostly made of the pledge class.

Man... I have so many thoughts about this. In general, I DO think we need to make new members more accountable for investing in their organizations from the get-go, and that includes bringing back things that are now considered "hazing" - things like learning way more about the history of our organizations, memorizing/meeting more of the active members, and maybe doing a new member project.

I'm a big believer that people are usually more invested in things that they spend time and energy on, especially if there's a level of difficulty in achieving something.

I'd like our new members to be much more responsible for actually learning about the history of our organizations and Greek life as a whole - including basic information about at least the other organizations on campus. This would include the REAL facts about common Greek myths like the brothel law, and why Alpha Phi is pronounced "FEE" but Gamma Phi is pronounced "FIE".

To dovetail with all of the issues around the increasingly chaotic recruitment process, I have major concerns about our organizations' abilities to properly vet potential new members during such a fast-paced, chaotic process. I'd LOVE to see the new member period truly be an extended process of new members continuing to prove themselves with solid grades, active involvement and commitment, and good general behavior. A longer new member period into the second semester/quarter would facilitate this.

Whew - anyway, I think a longer new member period would also allow the extra requirements to be less intense. I agree that joining a sorority shouldn't be as intense as a class - that would be detrimental to grades, afterall - but there that doesn't mean we can't expect a lot of our new members. If we expect a lot out of our members, then we need to expect a lot of the new members from the get-go.

I'm also going to say that to think that one program (other than the basic history) can be customized for chapters from 15 to 500 members is completely insane. It's not the same experience and we need to quit pretending/hoping that it is.

Or pledge classes ranging from 3 to 200

Not trying to stir up stuff but how is it that XO is the only exception to the shorter new member period? Why don't more groups buck the system? My best guess is that XO probably gets hit with a larger insurance bill due to it and their HQ and membership believes it's worth it. Why don't the rest of us?

It would probably be very easy to sell the insurance company on this. Al you have to do is show a lesser percentage of hazing and rm incidents with a semester long program than with a shortened program. Considering Chi O has a huge amount of chapters, the averaging out would most likely work in their favor.

.As a Chi O alum without an active chapter near me, I don't know why we have the same semester long pledge period that we had when I was a pledge! Nor do I remember reading about it in our Eleusis. But I am happy that we have retained it. Nor do I know what is now required during this period.

To back-track a bit, I don't really care for the term "New Member", much preferring the old "Pledge". We all understood that we wouldn't be members until initiation, and initiation required completion of a successful Pledge period. I really don't remember anyone complaining about it or balking at the requirements. Nor do I remember anyone not being initiated. In addition to the weekly pledge class meetings, we did the usual learning about our founders, our current national officers, our purposes, and meeting individually each and every active except those away from campus. We kept a pledge notebook and also wrote an occasional essay on an assigned topic having to do with Greek life. We worked with the actives on elections and homecoming, and went to visit sick sisters who were in the infirmary. We all attended the wedding of the rush chairman for when we went through rush. We had a weekend retreat for just the pledges. The actives had a pledge presentation formal ball for us and we pledges gave them a party. Much of that would likely be considered "hazing" now, but I don't remember a single thing that was degrading or unreasonable for becoming full members of Chi Omega. I hope much of that remains!

The reality of the situation is that a lot of these seemingly innocuous things (interviews, notebooks, signed daggers, etc.) are logistically harder to accomplish with the shorter NM periods first, can be arduous to complete for larger chapters second, and open the door to one jerk sister (and let's be real, there's always at least one jerk sister in every chapter no matter how small) taking it upon herself to make tracking her down for a chat/interview/signature really, really tough on new members, causing undue stress and taking time away from the real reason any of them are in school in the first place.

I had a ton of fun during my new member period, and I was lucky in that I was able to balance schoolwork and fun in a way that allowed me to keep my grades up. A few of my pledge sisters were not so lucky and had to defer initiation until they could get them up. Thinking about even my own collegiate chapter, which is bigger now, doing some of the things we did in "my day," with a shorter New Member period, and understanding that programs of study at my university are not magically getting easier... I can totally understand the shift away from these activities even if HQs weren't getting involved to put a stop to them.

And that's not even going into the other "fun" stuff we did that was actually pretty freaking dangerous.

But the point is, when the pledge periods were longer, you had more time to do all that. I did all that in 6 weeks, but I also had a chapter of 35. There's no way I would recommend that program in that time to an aporeciably larger chapter. That's part of what sororities are supposed to be teaching women: to think critically and take responsibility for your actions. If your chapter doubles in size and the majority of women have issues completing your program or making grades, that's a sign that you need to change up your program. If there's pushback, you need to be able to explain why you're changing and ask for ideas, help and support. As far as the jerk sister, that's why you have a pledgemistress. She's there to run interference. Again, if the majority of pledges have an issue, it can be ascertained with critical thinking that the sister is the problem.

We were founded in some cases by women of 15 or 16 who had remarkable foresight and courage. And ironically, now we're infantilizing 19-20 year olds because we don't think they can they can think.

I was initiated in 1984 and my pledge period was 8 weeks- same as it is now. Numbers wise, there simply aren't that many women who don't make grades today. Of course in 1984, the minimum GPA was a 2.0 to initiate and it's significantly higher now. Back then, if they didn't make grades, they got kicked out of school anyway.

The way information is presented is much, much better than it used to be, but the real requirements to be initiated haven't changed much at all. Our test was oral and it's a written test now. None of the things that aren't allowed now were ever part of our program from the International org. It was stuff that chapters made up and it really didn't serve a purpose.

I was really glad I wasn't in the chapter of women who had to go around campus blindfolded, hanging onto a rope with their hair in curlers and cold cream smeared all over their faces. I would have turned around and walked away from that group in a hot minute.

I had a boyfriend in a Fraternity so the fraternity guys didn't bug me much but some of my sisters were expected to kiss guys to get their signatures. And yes, agzg is right, there were also some sisters who were jerks. Our VP Fraternity Education could talk to them AFTER something happened, but once it happens, it is already too late. As one of the sisters who always had to run interference to keep pledges and sisters safe, that was unfair to me to put me in that position. It made me angry with my sisters a lot of the time and it ruined events for me because I was always having to save someone from themselves(because they were out of control drunk) or from someone else (because they were trying to haze a sister or a sister was being sexually assaulted). Not the good old days from what I remember...

This!

You totally misread what I was saying. It is not the specific things that are included in the program that help you learn critical thinking (and FWIW I never had to DD or cook for a sister), it is being able to decide what should be included and figuring out the best practices that help your pledges to become a vital part of YOUR chapter, YOUR campus, and YOUR community. Removing that autonomy is what's infantilizing. If there was a chapter out there who initiated pledges 3 days after giving bids and they had a strong chapter with fantastic retention, that's cool with me. If there's a chapter out there who needs a semester to attain that, that's cool with me too. Is it more work to sort through and approve different programs? Yes. Is it worth it? Yes.

The definition of hazing has become much more broad than it used to be and I've noticed a big disconnect between what the national office views as hazing and what the university views as hazing. Big one is pledge book. Our pledges were required to have all members sign their book but that was shut down last year as "illegal hazing". I always viewed hazing as mandatory fifth chugs, 10 mile pledge hikes, study hours, etc. Signing a damn book is not hazing but unfortunately I don't make the rules.

Some of this is not a particular chapter but campus culture that made it easier to close the door on activities rather than try to evaluate how far is too far on each of them. I was not asked to sign a book or paddle but my roommate's group and my friend down the hall were. Several sisters made them do things like flash a guy, get a guy to sign her um.. lower back, take shots, find out from someone else what their favorite food was, etc. It only takes one or two to make this escalate pretty quickly - from funny "ha ha you embarrassed yourself talking to a stranger " to wild.

Then you discipline those sisters, and tell the NMs they don't have to get their interviews. That's why NMs have bigs and/or a NM coordinator - to take these problems to during pledging.

As a LONG TIME advisor, and having pledged 24 years ago, the NM program has become somewhat ridiculous.

As a pledge, I was required to interview each sister and get their signature by showing them I knew stuff about them. We had NM projects like creating a NM class banner, creating a sisterhood banner, having a theme party for the chapter, doing a fundraising event (think a bake sale) for philanthropy, scavenger hunts and a couple other things. I never was a DD for drunk sisters, I never had to cook or clean or do favors for actives or that nonsense.

Today, the NMs are required to do little more than go to 2 meetings a week, go to their NM rituals and that's about it. Much of the "getting to know you" with sisters is gone from programs, sanitized with a national NM program. Then, when women are initiated (which subsequently, when I pledged, we didn't know when we were being initiated...we had a night when we were done with our NM program, called getting in, and we were initiated the following semester provided we passed the NM test and met grades), but when women are initiated, they are constantly overprogrammed because they think sorority is going to 2 meetings a week. But no, now they have to go to chapter, go to their committee meetings, go to philanthropy events, go to sisterhood events, go to workshops, go to ritual, go to recruitment, go to formal, go to mixers...GO GO GO! And everything is freaking mandatory. So now you've sold these NMs a bill of goods that they didn't sign up for, and they end up saying fuck this, I don't need this stress, because I never became invested in this sorority thing during the first 6 weeks of sorority life.

Nothing is going to change this...we're not turning the clock back to doing sister interviews and scavenger hunts. And we're still going to treat our NMs as princesses, and then once they get initiated, we will treat them like the work horse we expect everyone to be. Sorry, just calling it like I see it, and I see it ALL THE TIME!