40 acres and a mule?
 

I was watching C-Span yesterday and saw the African-American community speaking out against the wrongs done to their ancestors. They are seeking retribution for this evil. I watched them speak for over an hour and then changed the channel because I never really understood what it is they want.

I have just visited this website and read the 10 points.

www.blackpanther.org/TenPoint.htm

I am still not clear on the whole situation and I really don't agree with numbers 2,6 and especially #8.

I am sure that I am just uninformed so before I make up my mind I would like to know more about this.

It reeks of Communism... It's like just about any Communist agenda I've ever read except it is tailored to a specific audience.

I would imagine if they were awarded on all 10 points it would only increase racial tensions. If someone was interested in most of these things they could move to a "workers' paradise" such as China or Cuba..

I'm probably going to get chewed out for this, but here goes...

I'd like someone to show me a group that doesn't feel they've been oppressed (besides maybe white men...reverse racism?). Look at the American Indians, the Jews, the Japanese after WWII. I feel that unless someone or their parents were the ones involved in slavery, concentration camps, etc, they should not be seeking "retribution." Honor your history, mourn the opression and wrong-doing that happened to your ancestors, but don't make it about personal gain as if it happened directly to you.

I'm smart
 

I would drown this entire thread with my intelligent words, but I am on a 5AM flight out of state to work with one of my firm's clients for a few days.

And this isn't about communism. It's about an oppression that is still alive to this day. It's about a slavery that never went away. It's about a nation that provides benefits derived off this oppression to new immigrants from all over the world to this day whose ancestors never owned slaves and feel they owe no reparations. It's about the 40 acres and a mule and much more that many people were entitled to but never received.

-Rudey
--And with that, when I return I will totally reverse course and discuss why I do NOT believe in reparations. Smooooooochies.

I am proud to call my self an African-American, but I do not agree with the views of the Black Panthers. Honestly I dont know what should be done as far as reparations. It was wrong and evil to take Africans by force from their homeland and enslave them to work in fields, however reparations would be very complexed to distribute. I think it was great that President Clinton made a formal apology for slavery and Im content with that. This is a very complexed issue that involves many factors, too many to go into at 12:30 am. Ill post more of my thoughts tomorrow when Im more coherent. I would like to hear other peoples thoughts on this.

Re: I'm smart
 

I agree Rudey, looking forward to your next post.

American Indians, to this day are compensated for something that started almost 100 years before slavery became rampant in the US. If you are a registered Native American you can go to any state school free of charge. I don't know how Jews have been oppressed in the US. Some Japanese people were put into camps during WW2 were they treated as slaves/lynched? No. As a matter of fact, the US dropped two H-Bombs on Japan and then turned around and gave them all the money to rebuild their country in addition to rewriting their constitution and redesigning many aspects of their govt.

Personally, I am against giving every African American a check for X amount of money; but I feel that saying their claims are unsubstantiated is ridiculous.

I'm so embarrassed to ask this, because I should know this: What is capitalism and fascism?

Capitalism- the economic system in which all or most of the means of production and distribution are privately owned and operated for profit, originally under fully competitive conditions: it has been generally characterized by a tendency toward concentration of wealth, and, in its later phase, by the growth of great corporations, increased governmental control etc.


Fascism- a system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of opposition, private economic enterprise under centralized governmental control, belligerant nationalism, racism and militarism - first instituted in Italy in 1922 - a.k.a. Nazi



Nazi- characteristic of the German fascist political party founded in 1919 and abolished in 1945: Under Hitler it seized control of Germany in 1933, systematically eliminated opposion and put into effect its program of nationalism, racism, rearmament, aggression etc. - a member or supporter of this or any similar party- one who thinks or behaves like a nazi

sorry to interrupt the serious nature of this thread, but when i read the title that said something about 40 acres and a mule i thought it was gonna be a joke about uTexas and chrissy sims.

(any longhorns out there might appreciate the symbolism)

again, sorry to interject, continue your disucssion :p

Kitso
KS 361

I believe you misunderstood what I said. For example, I have a lot of things in my history for which I am angry about, and I have every right to my anger/pain/sadness, etc. But that's what makes it history; it didn't happen directly to me. I never said their feeling and their opinions are ridiculous, just that in my opinion people who look for personal gain under the guise of something else are out for themselves. (***This is not just related to slavery repartions, this is how I feel in general***). If the majority of people that were interested in reparations said: "it would be nice to have reparations for slavery memorials," "to give to the NAACP," "...to the UNCF," or "...for research into diseases that are more prevelent in African Americans" etc, I think more people wouldn't be as against it. And yes, I'm sure there are people that do it for such reasons, but there will always a group of people that say it for personal gain and those are the people that make others feel as though the claims - not the feelings, but the claims - are not legitimate.

I agree LeslieAGD. Im not looking for any reparations, but it would be great if public school systems studied slavery a lot more. Freshman year a group of my friends and I were having a conversation, and they new a little bit about it. Also going to a state school anywhere in the country free of charge would be cool too. Wash DC has something like that already though, if you graduate from a DC Public High School you can go to any state school in the country for in-state tuition.

I believe in reprations. I don't think you should be mailed a check personally, but I do feel that innercity areas, regardless of the majority color, because in order for an individualistic society to progress fairly, everyone should start from the same place. If you get ahead it should be because of your own efforts, not becase you were too poor to afford breakfast so you fail at life and never make it, or because you live off your parents grandparents wealth. Nothing in that list is communist. Democratic Liberal Socialist maybe, but not Communist. The Black Panthers are not a red army. Under communism you wouldn't have the Black Panthers only Communist party.

What about this?
 

so slaves were promised 40 acres and a mule. However, generations later, there are many more blacks decended from these slaves, so should the 40 acres and mule be split up among each of their hundred decendents or however many? just a thought, not saying i agree or disagree with it.

I do, however, think that if reparations are ever given, that the person getting them should have to prove that they are a descendent of a slave. I'm sure most black americans are, but i'm also sure that somewhere out there, there are those that look no different than any others, who's relatives came here after slavery, just like my buddy matt, who looks like a normal white dude, like me, is only a second generation american born citizen, whereas my family dates back at least a few hundred years. see what i'm saying there?

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding point #9:

"WE WANT FREEDOM FOR ALL BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE NOW HELD IN U. S. FEDERAL, STATE, COUNTY, CITY AND MILITARY PRISONS AND JAILS"

:eek: They can NOT be suggesting that every single black and oppressed (I assume by that they mean non-white) person in jail should be let free....right? If that's truly what they mean, they seriously need a wakeup call. While many people sit in cells, wrongly accused, there are people in the clink because they are G-U-I-L-T-Y. Do we want them roaming around?

As for #6:

"WE WANT COMPLETELY FREE HEALTH CARE FOR All BLACK AND OPPRESSED PEOPLE. "

Does that mean Michael Jordan gets free health care?

No, they should not, if so, that would be an awful case of PREJUDISM!

Way to go. I totally agree with you.

Isn't it interesting to look at the different ways of viewing these points?

What if we extended these points to all people - for instance:

"We want freed all people unjustly imprisoned."

"We want freedom, and self-determination for our communities."

"We desire full employment."

"We want decent housing for everyone."

"We desire free health care for those who need it."

These are made by simple, subtle changes to the wording to make them more universal - and no one could possibly disagree with the morals behind them, to my mind . . . right?

However, I don't think that reparations for slavery makes any of these happen, directly, so it therefore doesn't make sense to my mind. Giving somebody X dollars doesn't make them more educated or give them better job skills - however, opening the pathways to acquiring these things can come through money, so concentration on those efforts seems more appropriate.

Changing the system that ends with whites on top and blacks on bottom is the goal, not giving somebody a small amount of money to play with.

BRILLIANT...I totally agree with you.

All the different groups you mentioned are totally meaningless in regards to your argument.

-Rudey
--I wanted to discuss this issue but nobody here would even care.

I wrote a debate-style paper in high school on slavery reparations, and I agree that they're just ridiculous. And it'll never happen -- there are too many loopholes where people could just walk in and be handed money.

However, I do think that the idea that Optimist Prime proposed is both more realistic and a better solution.

I care.

Reparations for me are a touchy subject...I guess that I'm against the handing out of money directly to individuals, but I am strongly in favor of investment in depressed communities. As a sociology major, I've done a lot of reading on the conditions that exist in primarily minority neighborhoods, and found some telling statistics. The most telling one in my mind is that unemployment is the single biggest factor in crime rate for all races, and further that whites and blacks have the same incidence of crime among the employed populations and the unemployed populations - ie. that the crime rate among employed whites and employed blacks is almost exactly the same (within statistical values of error), as is the rate among unemployed whites/blacks. Simply put, the creation of jobs can lower crime rate undoubtedly.

However other issues are very interconnected. Namely education and the discrepency between academic programs at suburban schools and inner city schools. Education brings up even more issues about testing bias, and tracking systems and teacher expectations and so on and so forth...

I find it very unfortunate that some people are unwilling to hear crys of help in their fellow humans. As KSig RC pointed out so eloquently many of these demands are actually universal wants/need/desires.

Finally I think that everyone...no matter your political affiliation should determine how they can be a better human being. We, as greeks, often talk about reaching out to other GLO's, and working together to improve the image of the Greek System, and I'm sure that many rituals are based on this type of mutual aid and the helping of others in doing the right thing. Why can't this extend out to the others in our communities, states and our country? We can do all the philanthropy we want, but until we as voters elect people who want to create real change (and not just the candidate with the most cash) I cannot believe that any of these demands will ever be accomplished, nor will there be very many steps of progress to achieving them...

<steps off of mini soap box> As you can see it's hit a nerve with me...if anyone wants more information try PM me and I can give you some places to get information.

i saw the thread title, and i thought it was a coincidence because yesterday or before i was watching C-SPAN. i saw the National Black Farmer's Association have their Rally for Black Farmers.

does C-SPAN do a lot of stories on mules and congress?

LAWD HELP the massas decendents, help the massas decendents!
 

PUHLEEZE, you all brought us here! It's your fault. Ya should have left us alone and not brought us on those ships.

Shoot yourself for that one!

PLUS, we do not have any money. All you will get are clothes. :p (you really do not have a clue, do you?)

For clarification: go to my post re: the Black Teen pageant for the definition of "you", so folks will not get it twsted.

ON a serious note: I see that the educational system (history teachers) have failed some. Did they not teach the unit that explores the 40 acres and a mule concept? No, it's not a joke, it's a serious matter. I guess the teachers just went to the part where the Civil War was over and the Emancipation of Proclamation was signed and Abe Lincoln was assassinated and that's it...:rolleyes: oh well...

Re: LAWD HELP the massas decendents, help the massas decendents!
 

In a large magnet public school in Brooklyn, I learned about 40 acres and a mule. But this was in the college level AP US History class since I never took the normal class.

-Rudey

*bravo*!

I can also touch my nose with my tongue and run real fast...real fast.

-Rudey
--Bows as people start clapping all around!

K Sig, Optimist Prime...yes, agree with you guys 100%.

I do not agree with reparations...in monetary form anyway. I think Optimist's suggestion was wonderful.

KnowledgeEternal, other ethnicites cannot be compared. Okay, so Native Americans go to state schools for free. Well a vast majority are also confined to reservations where the government refuses to acknowledge them. Did you know that on Indian Reservations, the American criminal justice system holds no authority? So they are often crime-ridden and unsafe. Education there usually doesn't even make it to high school-level, so the whole free state school thing is a joke for them. Gotta know both sides of the coin.

Whoever was posting about all ethnicites being discriminated against... so right. Unfortunately, Blacks are the only group who have remained at the bottom of the hierarchy throughout history.

PM_Mama...all Sicilians/Italians are mafiosi? That would include me, partially. :) I think you are taking the 10 points out of context. It is not saying to free the guilty. They are asking for justice. Check out the demographics of the prison population.

Rudey, I think I am on the same page with you.

Um....

Entertainers DO help "their people." Many entertainers give back to the community. However, the money that entertainers have cannot POSSIBLY feed the vast majority of people living below the poverty level. Come on now.

This argument made me kinda angry, because it absolves the government of their role in creating ghettoes and perpetuating oppression. It is not the ENTERTAINERS responsibility to provide food and healthcare to those in poverty. :rolleyes: Be real.

Perhaps, however, I feel that if Blacks focus on being "at the bottom" in the past vs. being equal now (or trying to become equal if they feel they're not), the only people they are hurting are themselves.

Freed slaves were NEVER PROMISED 40 acres and a mule. An abolitionist Congressman suggested it as a New Dealish way to get the freedmen on their feet. He ended up being assaulted by a Congressman from S. Carolina--with a cane.

Everyone likes to whine about the "benefits" (if that's what you want to call them) that Native Americans receive. Most of these people have probably never been on a reservation, where they can see for themselves the poor conditions our country calls "subsidies" for Native Americans. Alcoholism, domestic violence, illiteracy, and crime are RAMPANT. The same people who complain about Native Americans receiving reduced prices in housing, education, and other social goods (hey, after the HORRIBLE treatment Natives receieved in their OWN LAND, the government almost owes it to them) are no doubt the same people who think that if affirmative action weren't in place, they would have gotten into law school/been hired/gotten that home loan.

And why should Russell Simmons, or any PRIVATE CITIZEN, be obligated to give money to anyone? You don't see Donald Trump doling out funds to Appalachia, do you? :rolleyes: The government created the ghettoes--and it's their responsibility to something about them.

Um, is there an echo? lol

Leslie...that would be a good point except for one thing. If the past gets swept under the rug, how is anyone gonna learn from it? It is one thing to "dwell" on the past, you are right, that is counter-productive...it is a whole 'nother thing to make sure that you are educated and focus on how you can eradicate the results of that past. The only way to do that is study the atrocities that occured and acknowledge that this country wasn't founded by the noblest of people.

Anyway, doesn't it suck that the "American Dream" is all about getting ahead and suceeding...and for Blacks the American Dream is about "getting equal"? Doesn't seem right, does it?

PM_Mama...thank you ;)

Librasoul, I wasn't referring to rug sweeping...I was saying, stand up and be a strong man or woman (and this goes for any race, ethnic group, sexual orientation, etc.). And this could very well be an entirely different topic, but there are plenty of cultural minorities, women, and gays who feel as thought they're trying to "get equal," not ahead...Blacks don't have a monopoly on this.

The issue of blacks in america is a very complexed issue. In regards to getting ahead and beyond the "ghetto" my opinion is that there arent enough role models to show young african-americans how to get ahead. My parents went to college and successful and I am following their path, but some african-americans dont have anyone positive follow, thus we dont get ahead, and the cycle repeats itself. This is not an excuse, or the only reason why blacks seem to stay at the bottom, but this may shed some light on why things are the way they are.

Dislcaimer: THIS IS ONLY MY OPINION AND FROM WHAT I SEE IN DC!!!!!

bah
 

Certain comments to consider:

Does anyone actually deny that work went on uncompensated?
Does anyone actually deny that those benefits are felt even to this day?

However why don't people see the difference between compensation made to other ethnic groups that makes it impossible to compare the situation of blacks in America to other groups? The situation of Jews and Native Americans/Indians (whatever they choose to be called) are not similar in one bit to those of blacks - specially those of black slaves. Anyone that tries is simply trying to piggyback another argument and they will fail hard.

Why isn't consideration given to other ethnic groups? Why not the Japanese who were put in internment camps? How about the Chinese who built the railroads? How about the Italians or the Irish? What about the Mexicans that truly live like slaves in many areas of America??

How can reparations be considered the first step in a series of actions to remedy the current situation of which black America, when none of the other "steps" are even discussed. An "apology" is discussed but that is rarely well thought out enough - even as to provides the apology.

Also is reparations a slavery issue or a black issue? Are there overlaps or are both mutually exclusive? What is it that falls in the overlap that is beyond simple slavery?

If it's simply slavery, why isn't more being done around the world to eliminate it? The slavery which is alive in direct forms such as the Arabs and the Sudanese and the more indirect forms such as sweatshops or strawberry fields?

-Rudey
--With the demographic changes in the coming years, it's not going to be this black vs white situation anymore.