Article about buying pins back on Ebay
 

Ok ya'll-so this morning I was reading the Houston section of the Houston Chronicle, and there was an article in there about this woman who is a Kappa alum who has formed Keepers of the Key-which is a little group that buys back old GLO pins off of Ebay. They also bombard sellers of Greek pins to either please take the pins off, or please sell it to them. The article said that they had spent about $17,000 of their own money so far buying back pins. :eek: It also briefly talked about Sigma Kappa's policy about trying to get back pins when a member passes away.

The article was really neat-it focused mostly on Kappa though, since both the woman writing the article and the woman featured in the article are Kappa alums.

It gave me a warm fuzzy to read it though!! (I'll try and post the link, but don't hold ya'll's breath, because I probably can't do it :p )

Re: Article about buying pins back on Ebay
 

No need to post the link, ChiOJenn. The article, and a fair amount of discussion about it, is the subject of the thread NY Times Article About GLO Pins/Collectors.

Ya, now I feel silly, since this was the same article that Killarney Rose posted a couple of days ago-oops!! I guess news is slow to come down here! :D

I think it's great what they have been doing to get their pins back. Sometimes I randomly search on eBay and it makes me upset and kinda sad to see GLO pins up for auction even though it's not my GLO. I don't understand the whole obsession with pin collectors :confused: and I personally don't feel it's right to sell something that not yours to someone else just to make a buck. :(

I'm not a collector, and maybe it's a mistake to belabor this, but...

Why do you assume that the badges being sold on e-bay do not belong to the seller? Yes, I know that many GLO's have constitutional/by-law provisions or rules that badges should be buried with the member, returned to HQ, or given to a legacy, but many GLO's have no such rule -- the badge is the property of the member, period, and anyone who buys it -- say from the member's estate -- is unquestionably the owner of the badge.

As for the GLO's that do have such rules, if legal ownership came down to a court battle between the GLO and, say, a seller on e-bay, my money would be on the seller. I just don't see much chance of a GLO winning that fight.

Legally, MysticCat, I don't think that's ever been tested. I don't think either the collectors or the GLOs want to spend that kind of money on a court battle.

To me it just comes down to a matter of respect. If a group doesn't want me to collect their stuff (be it pins or anything else), I feel it is disrespectful of me to do it - especially if I say I admire what that group believes and stands for. There are plenty of things in this world designed to be collectible (Olympic pins, Hummel figurines, Elvis plates) and lots of things that have become collectible but the makers don't mind (stamps, willow ware, old Coke bottles). There are so few things that are off limits, it doesn't seem like it is asking that much to ask people to respect this desire.

I see your point completely, FuzzieAlum, and up to a point I agree with it. All I'm saying is that I think it muddies the waters to imply that what sellers are doing on e-bay is wrong because "they don't own the badges to begin with." Maybe that's true in some cases, but in the majority of cases I'd say it's debatable at best. If one wants to argue against collecting, it's better to stick with a stronger, well-grounded arguments, such as the one you made.

I'm sure there are a few badge sellers who know they are selling what is deliberately stolen property - but that is true of people selling anything, not just pins. I doubt that most pin sellers go creeping around campuses late at night, snatching pins from bedside tables just so they can make a buck. ;)

I would think that particular argument would apply more to, say, a girl my age who signed an agreement saying if she quit she would return her badge. (I signed one when I joined.) She then quits but sells the badge on eBay. She has violated a written contact. However, this is not the majority of badge sales by any means.

Exactly FuzzieAlum. But take a case such as yours, where someone signed an agreement that if he or she quit, the badge would be returned to HQ: If that person (lets call him or her GLO Seller) ultimately sold or gave the badge to someone else (GDI Buyer, we'll call him, with the assumption that he is a buyer in good faith) in violation of that agreement, the existence of the agreement doesn't prevent GDI Buyer from having legal ownership of the badge. It just means that GLO Seller breached his or her contract with the GLO in question, unless in the agreement GLO Seller also agreed that he or she had no property interest in the badge other than the right to wear it while a member in good standing. At least, that's how it seems to me.

I think that depends. Let's say I decide to sell my badge to Some Collector Guy but don't tell him how I got it. Then, legally, it *might* be his. But what if he buys it knowing full well about the contract I've signed? (Like let's say I sold my badge to you.) Does that change things? I don't know the answer, because I am not a lawyer. Basically, I am selling property that is not my own to someone who knows I don't own it.

It would be kind if an airline pilot agreed to sell his airline's 737 he is flying that day to someone. While the aircraft may be in the pilot's possession for a time, he does not own it and does not have the right to sell it. The airline finds out (duh, a plane is hard to miss) and takes them all to court to get the plane back. The buyer can't complain, "But I didn't know it wasn't his to sell." He's still required to give it back.

I don't know if this analogy holds, but that's the way I think of it.

Fuzzie, weren’t you the one complaining about threads getting hijacked and turned into a debate over whether pin collecting is right or wrong?

No, there has not been a court battle to date. Several GLOs have had their officers and/or attorneys send letters to ebay. Ebay of course forwarded these to their own attorneys for review. What happened? Well, ebay then proceeded to give fraternity and sorority pins their own category in the listings! So I’ll leave you to speculate as to how strong the GLOs’ legal case was. I think you all know the answer already.

Maybe it is a respect issue after all. I’ll tell you though, I think the word “disrespect” gets thrown around way too often. PETA thinks I shouldn’t be sitting here at my desk eating this tasty chicken sandwich. So am I being disrespectful to PETA by eating this sandwich? Or do I just have a different opinion on the issue?

As I’ve said before, I feel these badges have a life and a soul of their own that transcends some bureaucratic policy manual or bylaw that was conceived a century or more after the founders were first inspired to design a badge reflective of their ideals. In my view, preserving your badge in my library is a sign of the utmost respect to the original ideals and symbols of your group. For me, that outweighs the concerns of a handful of people whose feathers are ruffled over entitlement issues.

Is that disrespectful? No. It’s a differing opinion. And here’s another one: GLOs should spend less time worrying about who is allowed or entitled to have the badge, and spend more time worrying about whether the people who are currently wearing it, deserve to.

From the infamous NY Times article:
“But to [Mrs. Silzel] the value of the pins lies not in their history, but in their hard-won exclusivity.”
Search your feelings and ask yourself if this isn’t the REAL reason you’re so upset about seeing your badges in the hands of non-members.

wptw

Legally Brunette
 

Under the uniform Commercial Code, which is the law in every state, there are more protections for consumers than for dealers/commercial entities, and more protections for innocent holders of goods than those who take possession knowing the goods are stolen.

Here are two hypos to illustrate:

A owns a badge. B steals the badge and sells it to C, an antique dealer, who knows that it was stolen from A. In a suit between A and C, A would win because C took possession of the pin in bad faith, knowing B did not have title.

But if C has, in the meantime, sold the badge to D, a consumer, who had no idea where C got it, D becomes the legal owner and A cannot get it back from D. A consumer who, without notice of a superior claim to title, buys an article from a dealer who regularly sells that kind of article takes good title as against the whole world.

So unless the pin is listed as "stolen fraternity pin," anybody who buys a pin from a regular eBay dealer is the owner of the pin, free and clear.

Ivy (***** Law School '02)

Thanks, Ivy. I realize I'm no scholar of law!

You Win the Paper Chase
 

You make an A in Sales and Secured Transactions, IvySpice.

And there is also the contract issue with regard to ownership of badges. It isn't enough for an agreement or policy to say that a badge is to be returned to HQ upon the death/termination of membership of the member. Unless the agreement (whether an actual signed agreement or a constitutional/by-law provision to which a member has constructively agreed by becoming a member) actually states that a badge remains the property of the national GLO and is provided to the member only for his or her use while a member in good standing (or words to that effect), then there is not, I don't think, a basis for saying that the badge is not the property of the member. And as you say with regard to the Uniform Commercial Code, even if there is such an explicit agreement, if the member sells the badge on e-bay and the buyer is not aware of the agreement, then the buyer is unquestionably the owner of the badge. The national GLO could sue member for breach of contract, but it could only recover the value of the badge, not the badge itself.

So did you take the bar exam last month? If so, my fingers are crossed for good news in the next few weeks. Welcome to the bar!

This is kinda OT, but have they ever discovered any collectors (of any kind, not just pins) working in "cahoots" with each other on ebay to drive up prices?

OOPS
 

If and only if, that Badge is reported stolen then you as the unknowing recpient can lose that Badge as having stolen merchandise in your possesion!

What happens if that is found out? You Ask?

You lose the Badge! You can but more than likely not be prosecuted. You are the Dupe who purchased it in good faith!

But if you knowingly bought it as stolen merchandise, Yep at the cost of Badges it is a felony and you can and will go to Jail!

It is a do not pass go situation!

I know we all want to save our Badges, but I think as I put on before wptw has a lot to say to the GCers about what to look for if you will listen!

I have talked to him via land line and have a lot of respect for him for what I heard and what he has put on site for knowledge pasted on to us!

Thanx wptw for your insight!

I think I can speak from experience as wrote enuff reports on stolen property in 7 yrs!

Thanks for the kind words, Tom. And you’re quite right. Even if you hate the tone of my posts and you just can’t get past a moral objection to badge collecting, you should still pay attention if you’re truly interested in this subject. Collectors really are one of the very best sources for information on just about every aspect of GLO badges. Design, history, construction, who made them, where to find them, how to date them, the economics of their market value, you name it. Collectors have extensive interaction with all the sides involved in this debate: Other collectors, irate GLO members, dealers and estate jewelers, national GLO officers, lawyers, ebay spokespeople, etc., so I think we are the only ones who can claim to truly see the issue from all sides.

I’ve gotten a lot of PMs from some really nice GCers over the last few months. Some think collecting is great and want to know how they can start their own collection. Some still object to collecting and want to know more about the subject so they can more effectively fight to save their badges. I care deeply about our organizations, so I was happy to meet and talk to all of these people.




33girl, good question about sellers working together to drive up the auction prices. Shill bidding has always been a problem on ebay, so it would be naïve of me to think that it hasn’t happened in badge auctions. But I’ve bought a lot of pins on ebay and I have never been too worried about it. For the most part, the sellers are either other collectors or established accounts who regularly sell GLO pins. Collectors know the buyers will likely be other collectors, and since integrity is such an important virtue in our community, it’s unlikely we would try anything “funny” with an auction. Dealers also know that their “regular” customers are the collectors, and that word of a bad dealer travels fast in our circles. So again, I’m not too worried. The suspicious auctions are when the seller has very little feedback, has never sold a badge before and is claiming to be selling their own badge or the badge of a family member. These are the people out to make a short term buck any way they can. But this goes for any auction on ebay. Caveat emptor!

I have also seen the opposite situation. Sometimes when I am selling a pin, I’ll see an unusual number of bid retractions and cancellations. Turns out the sisters are emailing the bidders and telling them to retract their bids. Since some of the bidders are my collector friends, it’s always easy to know when this is happening because they forward me the emails. Ebay is pretty quick to cancel the accounts of people they find tampering with bids, especially when you can supply the emails as proof.

wptw

33girl--

I would have no doubt that pin collectors drive up these prices. There is a D Phi E badge up right now. The person who is selling the badge is a pin collector. If you look at the bid history of the badge, the seller is one of the bidders!!! I'm sorry, but that's just wrong.

I'm not saying this because I'm opposed to anything wptw has said. He's as entitled to his opinions as I am to mine. I just saw this today, and it just really struck me as something wrong.

What!?!

Where?

That is wrong... there is also the case of sellers on sites like eBay that make "alias" member names to bid on their own items to drive the price up.. while I do not know of any actual proven cases, I wouldn't be surprised if they do that also..

and I agree with Fuzzie's earlier comment about it's a matter of respect...

I still haven't found this auction Shadokat is talking about (which is strange because if the seller were really a collector, I'm quite sure they would list it such that I could find it by searching "delta phi epsilon"). So let's not get all worked up about it until we verify what she said is correct.

wptw

Wow, thanks for the info - I'm glad that I stopped bidding on it and I will definetly not go any higher. I actually wrote to the seller to ask a question and never recieved a response, now I know why.

I want a pin, but I don't want it badly enough to be shilled. I was suspicous of the 0 feedback, but I didn't think it was actually a collector, I thought it was a legitimate new user.

TIME OUT!
 

Stacy and Shadokat, what the heck are you two talking about?!?

The only currently active auction for a DphiE pin is this one:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...tem=2130400723

The seller is NOT, repeat NOT a pin collector. They are a newly registered user with 0 feedback. And they have not bid on their own auction, at least not with the same username. Nowhere in the bid history does it show any evidence of shilling.

Go back up a few posts where I told you the people you generally have to worry about are the new sellers with no feedback. This is one of them. But this is NOT a case of a collector shill bidding on his own auction. In fact, the bid history on this auction shows no evidence of shill bidding whatsoever.

Jeez, do your homework and read through everything before you freak out.

wptw

People just relax. Even if someone buys your pin and is not in your GLO, then he will not know the ritual signifagce of it.

Re: TIME OUT!
 

I'm not outright saying this is a shiller, but just because they have zero feedback doesn't mean anything - it could be a second identity, using a main account to do the shilling.

I don't generally buy anything from someone with zero feedback, and the fact that this person did not respond to my question leads me to be very suspicous.

I do know how to do my homework on ebay, which is why I'm very very very careful before purchasing anything, sororoity related or not.

Stacydphie, I completely agree with you about being cautious on ebay. That's not what I'm saying though.

Shadokat started this whole "sky is falling" thing last night by saying the seller in this auction was a pin collector, and that if you look at the bid history you'll see he bid on his own auction. Neither of these comments appears to be true.

So what I'm saying is, before people start freaking out and thinking the pin collectors are shill bidding up the prices, let Shadokat give us more evidence as to why she made the comments she did. I think she probably looked at the listing wrong and made an honest mistake.

As for this particular auction, I personally would stay away from it. New seller. No feedback. Not much detail on the badge. And the listing was just edited to change "10k gold" to "gold plated" after it has already received quite a few bids.

wptw

Folks listen to wptw, he is giving you straigth scoop!

By the way that Badge that I had that you had seen, I sent that to Jono along with a LXA Alpha Badge he got from me at my cost as was Alpha!

Check with him as he is not sure what it is either! You were the only one who had an idea!

Most if not all Collectors want to buy low and sell high! Hell that is the American way!

I have tried to tell Different Orgs about Badges on ebay but got no thank you for doing it! So I do not do it anymore! DA!

I have seen LXA Badges on ebay and if I see a Brother Bidding, I do not bid against him! I will write and try to keep a record so I can stay in touch and see what is up with them at that Chapter why dont you all try the same?

Yes I have bought LXA Badges so to keep them opff site but sell or offer to sell them back to my members at what I paid for them which usually is cheaper than National! Da have sold 2!

So you should check into who is bidding and if to much, drop out!

TTFN!