Cloning: Yay or Nay?
 

Ok, the other controversial threads seem to have petered out, and I saw a show on TLC about this last night and this article this morning, so I figured I'd start a thread and see how this discussion goes. (I don't have time to post my opinion right now, but I will when I get the chance. :))

AUGUST 13, 05:17 ET
Doctor Defends Cloning Experiment

LOUISVILLE, Ky. (AP) — A doctor who is trying to clone babies for several couples as part of a controversial experiment said cloning isn't such a ``monstrous'' procedure, but he acknowledged that risks do exist.

Dr. Panayiotis Zavos appeared on CNN's ``Connie Chung Tonight'' on Monday with an American couple who will be the first to take part in the cloning. Six or seven couples hope to have a baby next year as part of the experiment.

``The public will realize that this is not as monstrous as ... it may sound. Once they see a baby dressed in pink or blue, they will say, 'What a wonderful thing,''' said Zavos.

But ``for me to say there are no risks involved, that would be a pure lie,'' he added.

The American couple — known only as Bill and Kathy — described publicly for the first time the failed attempts to have a child that led them to turn to Zavos.

The reproduction researcher said he plans to clone a baby for the couple by taking DNA from Kathy and adding it to a donor's egg. The donor's DNA would be removed from the egg, which would be implanted into a surrogate mother.

Zavos said the procedures would be attempted later this year in two overseas clinics. He would not disclose the locations.

Bill and Kathy, whose voices were disguised and faces blurred on the show, said they met in 1989 — Bill was a 40-something divorcee and Kathy was a 30-something career woman. The two wed in 1993 and immediately began trying to have a baby.

After failed attempts of reproducing the natural way, the couple tried artificial insemination and in vitro fertilization. Nearly four years after their last unsuccessful attempt in 1998, the couple read an article on Zavos and his cloning experiments.

``I tracked him down, and I called him, and I called him, and I called him,'' Bill said.

Zavos resigned last year from the University of Kentucky to help lead the human cloning effort. So far his medical teams have experimented only with animal clones.

Both Congress and the U.N. General Assembly have debated bans on human cloning, but have yet to pass legislation. A few states and foreign countries, including Great Britain, have prohibited cloning.

I say NAY!!

no human cloning!!!!!!! i can't even argue sensibly WHY...I just get nightmares about freaky science fiction movies and I just don't want our world to turn into a science friction freak out...I want it to stay the way it is now, good and bad.:(

Unfortunately that's not how the (scientific) world works - there will certainly be humans cloned, whether it be made illegal in the US or not.

There are extreme issues with animal clones right now - DNA defects, congenital diseases, etc. The same, expressed in humans, would certainly be considered horrible and cause intense outrage.

However, there can be useful insights to come out of such experimentation - without the desire to clone humans, for instance, stem cell research would not nearly be what it is today, and that potential would remain untapped.

The bottom line is, it's still imperfect science. I'd say we're decades from a viable human clone - and in that time, who knows if the fervor will continue in the 'rogue science' community. We'll have to wait and see - hopefully enough good can come out of the research to justify the unavoidable bad things that will come out of such efforts.

Re: Cloning: Yay or Nay?
 

I am not a scientist by any means, so I can't make a scientific argument here. However, I can say that as described in this article, I am completely against cloning. Bill and Kathy have tried to reproduce for 5 years and it hasn't worked. Maybe there is a biological reason why they haven't been able to do it, and they should just leave it at that. Although I don't personally desire children and therefore don't necessarily understand where they're coming from, I don't understand why they can't just accept the fact that they are not going to have a biological child and look into adoption. If you really want kids, I just don't see how the biology of it is so important that one would go to such extremes when there are children available for adoption.

For the record, I am also against the cloning of animals.

I'm also against reproductive cloning for the same reasons valkyrie mentioned.

I am, however, for cloning for stem cell research and therapy. There are many people who could be helped by these medical advancements and I think scientists should have free rein to do cloning research for that reason.

I would post more but I actually have work to do for once...

Edited to add:

Here is a good article from the National Institute of Health on stem cells:

http://www.nih.gov/news/stemcell/primer.htm

Summary from the article:

So, do the potential benefits outweigh the potential risks? I think they do.

The law and people should at least allow science to EXPLORE these areas.

There is no telling how much knowledge can be gained simply from exploring this process.

The world stands so much to gain and so little to lose.

So what's the problem?

Cloning Organs: Yes

Cloning People For Organs: No

Okay this may be coming from an uneducated person in the field of cloning and science...however a few things came to my mind when I saw the commercial for that show.

Lets say they DO clone you. What good is it? I mean yes for science, but I think so many people are simply fascinated with the thought of a little "mini me" version of themselves. But really when you think about it the clone won't have your same memories or feelings. I know that's not the point, but think about it on the intelecutal front....wouldn't it totally suck to see YOURSELF grow up and succeed more than YOU did? I dunno, just a little thing to think about.

Hootie:p

sci-fi geeks
 

We should try it at least once to see what exactly it entails. If we find that it's really quiete OK, that this individual can lead a normal life then it can be a viable option of reproduction for lesbians. If not, then well we'll learn from our mistakes.

And don't watch too many scary science fiction films about out-of-this-world clones.... they'll rot your brain.

Re: Re: Cloning: Yay or Nay?
 

my view exactly Valkyrie!! When I heard that the vet. school at Texas A&M started cloning animals last year I was appalled-I knew it was going to happen sooner or later though.

There are so many children in this world that need adoption-we need to be thinking about this instead of always feeling the need to pass on our own genes.

That said I am for stem cell research. I do believe we can have one without the other.

My clone
 

If I had a clone, I'd kill him. I would beat him with a sack of doorknobs until he pled for mercy, and then I'd keep beating him because I have no mercy for clones. Whatever remained, I would mail it back to the good doctor who created him so he would learn his lesson.

-Rudey
--After I was done beating my clone, I would have sex with Connie Chung and make her husband, Maurie Povich, have an entire episode of his talk show devoted to my feats as his wife's lover.

Re: My clone
 

hahahahah....

I read the interview they had yesterday and was appalled. Connie Chung asked them why they didnt want to adopt and they said something along the lines of the type of health concerns they had about adopting children from foriegn countries and how they didnt want to deal with it. BUT later on in the interview Connie asked them how they felt about the health risks involved and how the dolly sheep has arthritis at such a young age and they were like oh we can handle anything that is brought our way. I was like okay contradict yourselves. I think they are being selfish and should not being doing this especially when Dr. Zarvos says that he cant guarantee them anything and when they dont even know all the health risks involved. Parents are supposed to protect children not make them susceptible to harm, which is very probable with this procedure. Also with cloning beef cattle they have had problems where the fetus grows way to big and both the mom and the child have to be put down. What are they going to do euthanize the surrogate mother too? Sorry to ramble but this article really made me mad!!! :mad:

Here is the interview:


http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0208/12/cct.00.html

AMEN!
 

I think if you really feel you have to participate in this cloning procedure for reproductive reasons, you should also be required by law to adopt at least one child.

It makes me ill to think of how much $$$ this couple is willing to spend - probably enough to raise 20 adopted children.

Not to mention if we keep reproducing instead of taking care of the people who are already here, we'll drain the earth's resources even more than they already are. Watch Soylent Green a couple times, and you'll see where I'm coming from.

Re: AMEN!
 

On the issue of money, I think that if a company adopted babies and sold them to a Nike factory, we would make waaaaay more money. Imagine it, their agile little fingers manipulating those big machines. It's a gold mine.

-Rudey
--I would still kill my clone. No doubt about it.

Hey Kiddies, there is nothing wrong with wanting to perpetuate your own genetic code . . it served you well after all.

Its a biological imperative anyway, right after survival.

I think everyone kind of missed that in my anger I was overstating. Obviously it would have been nice if the people who actually had the kids would stick around to take care of them, but that doesn't always happen for whatever reason (and sometimes to the child's benefit - some people just should not raise children).

Yes we want to perpetuate our own genes, but that's mostly a physiological impulse IMO (see I know my Maslow's hierarchy of needs) and we are supposed to be thinking beings, not just salmon that swim upstream so they can shoot their load and then die. My point is, there are far too many children growing up in foster care here and around the world, and then we have idiots like these 2 who are so in love with their own genes that they're willing to CLONE themselves. Like UF said, they don't want to adopt because of the "health risks" but they are willing to risk heaven knows what with a clone? I feel so bad for this child already - if it doesn't come out perfect the parents will probably try to return it to the lab. :rolleyes:

Re: AMEN!
 

Sorry but I can't resist evilly twisting your words . . .:D

If it makes you ill watching the dollars that this couple could be using on adopted children . . . it must positively make your teeth ache to think of the life that could be given to at least one adopted child by the $17,000 that some of the KKG alum used in one year just to purchase(rescue) badges!

That child would have a nice little start on life. Sigh, some people are just so insensitive.

Ahhh Darlin', to stretch your analogy: If mortal man had the option of choosing a destiny that called for him to impregnate thousands, maybe tens of thousands of women (1egg = 1 woman. look its not my fault that salmon are different) and then die . . . I think that would be a river that many men would find worth traveling. Kind of shoot our load and then die as you put it LOL. :D

Cloning hurts women
 

"Primate NT appears to be challenged by stricter molecular requirements for mitotic spindle assembly than in other mammals. In cattle, the somatic centrosome is transferred during NT, whereas mice rely on the oocyte's maternal centrosome. Also, NuMA and HSET are not exclusively concentrated on the meiotic spindle in mammals other than primates. With current approaches, NT to produce embryonic stem cells in nonhuman primates may prove difficult--and reproductive cloning unachievable. " (Science 11 April 2003: 297)

Sadly, attempts to clone has already cause health problems in women, who provide the primary research material - oocytes (eggs). Dr. Hwang went through thousands of eggs in his failed attempt for respect and fame.

Poor women of color are currently coerced and exploited for as little as US$300 for their eggs. One woman died from the process just a few weeks ago. Other consequences of OHSS is stroke, renal failure, and fututure infertility in the mother and there is growing evidence of increased risk of increased risk of cancers, deformities, and stillbirth in future offspring.

Human embryonic stem cell research is a hot topic pitting patients against embryos ... but, as is often the case, women's health risks are ignored - or passed off as researchers try to determine the least amount of money for which women will be enticed.

For more information, go to http://www.HandsOffOurOvaries.com and http://www.EndEggsploitation.org

In the United States, it is illegal to clone material from human oocytes.

There are human embryonic stem cells lines developed 10 years ago that one has to be approved from an Institutional Review Board, Human Subjects Division. Then these cell lines can never be put into another human.

Besides, I hope folks never have a heart attack, stroke, spinal cord injury, requiring any kind of transplants, including blood transfusions or surgery requiring bone marrow stem cell treatments.

Without research, basically, folks would be dead.

Think about that when you go to emergency...

That includes any gauze, needles, intravenous fluids, respirators, etc. All items have been thoroughly tested on laboratory animals.

Besides most rodent species used in testing are cloned. How do I know, because, it is my career.

Just don't ever get sick.

I thought this thread's subject was "Clothing: Yay or Nay".

I was gonna say nay

Theraputic cloning that can be used for medical reasons: Yay

Cloning for the hell of it so that ur exact genetic code lives on: Nay


Still, the tech should be researched just like we researched the atom bomb. Because even though the end result mightn't be all that good a concept, the tech that was developed and put to good use because of it was worth the effort. The same thing I dare say will happen with at least researching cloning (as long as it doesn't go anywhere near cloning full humans), as it will help our understanding of genetics immensely.

So yeah, Yay for theraputic/medicine, Nay for anything else.

I want to be cloned so that one of me can get the housework done, one can go to work and yet another could hang out with the kids, volunteer at the school, etc.

I'm pro-cloning but using the technology for reproduction is an absolute waste of resources. Like some one else said, hello...adoption? Cloning should be used to kill diseases, fix paralysis, and help me build an army to conquer the world. The couple shouldn't raise this kid, I need him as solider alpha zero one