Abortion and Mens Rights
 

Did anyone catch the story on Russ Parr this morning regarding the man that sued his ex-girlfriend. The ex-girlfriend is pregnant and planned to have an abortion. The guy asked the court for an injuction and wanted the ex-girlfried to carry the baby to term. The guy wanted the child and planned to raise the child himself. The court ruled said that this guy had no rights and dismissed the cases. The guestion this morning is should men have rights. Whats your take?

Men's rights
 

What was the analysis on the judge's ruling? What court district (State, Federal, Supreme) was the lawsuit located? I'm speculating that the judge probably stated that it was the ex-girlfriends body and the guy couldn't just make her carry the baby to term or maybe it was the fact that they were not married. I am interested in finding out the whole story though.

Good Question
 

My wife and I would "discuss" this point all the time while we were dating. I felt that Men had equal rights to the baby as women did. My wife felt that women had more of a say so due to the fact that women had to carry the baby and therefore it becomes an issue of what a woman wants to have done in her body (in other words "what I do wih my body is my business!!!") This is quite a complicated issue, because depends on how you percieve the baby inside the woman's body. I personnally believe that Women have the right to choose.....not to have sex if you do not want to carry a baby to full term!!!!! I understand that a pregnancy can be brutal on a woman's body, and women have the perogative to decide not to go through tha pain of childbirth, morning sickness, hormonal changes, weight gain, etc. that are associated with preganancy. This decision is made WHEN YOU DECIDE TO HAVE SEX!!!! Once you decide to have sex, then you are agreeing to accept the responsibilties that come with that decision... including the possibility of a baby, emotional and spiritual attachment, history and intimacy, etc. Sex is not casual, and when we decide to have sex, we should know that it is one of the most important decisions that we will ever make.

That woman has no right to deny that child of the possibilty of life and potentiality. If she does not want to be a part of the baby's life, then fine, but she has no right to decide that the baby cannot have life, only God rightly makes that decision. If the man wants the right to raise his child, then why deny him that right? The issue of a women's right to choose has diverted attention from the main issue in this case, the man's right to parent and the child's right to have life. The women's right to choose should end with what she does with her own body, not what she does to her child's body. Don't want to be pregnant or raise a child? Then don't have sex, period! That is a woman's (and a man's) right to choose.

To play devil's advocate, one could say that the man should have known that when he had sex with the woman that she would have wanted an abortion under whatever circumstance she wants the abortion. (My wife brings up this point). I concur that men should also know what possibilities are there after having sex. Since abortion is legal, this is a possibility. If the man wants to raise a child, make sure that the woman wants to carry a child to term and deliver a child. But the question still remains, what about the rights of the child to live and become whatever it can and will become? I know that people will talk about quality of life and the social ills that come from children not being raised in productive environments, but I still say that the answer to all of this is that if the adults do not want to deal with all of these issues, then DO NOT HAVE SEX!!! don't deny the right of a child to have a life.
Blackwatch!!!!!!

Intersting point Blackwatch. However, lets keep this on Mens Rights. My take is men have few choices. Women make decisions everyday to have children regardless if the man wants the child or not and are then often forced to make child support payments. On the other hand women also are judge and jury if they choose to abort. Men don't have rights. We are only sperm donors regardless of the decision to abort or keep the child. What's interesting is women who choose to give children up for adoption must have consent for the release of paternal rights but they don't hae to consent to an abortion. I really don't see the difference.

Blackwatch, you are totally off base with you post. You have the RIGHT to your OPINION, however, I don't think that you can be the judge of when and/or why men and women choose to have sex. You, also, can not say that people lose the right to choose once they have sex. I may CHOOSE to have sex, but I may NOT choose to become pregnant. There is a difference.

I am not going to judge and say that it is right or wrong to have an abortion because that's another thread. However, if a woman chooses not to carry a baby to term, that's HER business. It has nothing to do with hormones, stretch marks, or other superficial things. It has to do with what she thinks is best. An abortion may be the best option for her. She may not want to raise a child in this world by herself. Men are under NO obligation to stick around. Adoption may not be an good option for her because there are millions of kids out there already that are parentless and growing up in mass group homes. Maybe she just doesn't want kids. I will stop there because I can go on and on, but I want to answer the original question.

I do not think that men should be granted rights to a child that a woman is carrying. After she has the baby, then what? Is the man going to take care of the child, provide a loving environment, raise and nurture the child? It sounds good in theory, but as little as some girls and women know about raising children, men know even LESS. If women think that it's hard to raise a child alone, what is a man going to do? Raising kids is no cakewalk.

Men' rights
 

Check out this website
www.law.com

Look under Top Headlines, then click on "Judge Rules Woman Can Have Abortion Over Ex-Boyfriend's Wishes"

BTW - The judge who handed down the ruling was a MAN.

Thanks for the link!

I agree with the points made by Blackwatch and Professor. Society is quick to state how a lot of men don't play an active role in their children's lives. Then you have those men who want to take part, but are seen as incompetent compared to women or as in this case are denied that option. They can't win either way. Men are seen as nothing more than sperm donors and financial supporters. This is not the case. They are a vital part to the emotional development of boys and girls. Therefore, I think that men should have rights.
Yes, there are many issues that come along with this, but hey that's life. I also think people need to communicate about the risks of sex before engaging in it. Most people don't think they'll get an STD or get pregnant if they use protection, but stuff happens. Addressing the "what if" scenarios beforehand, may cut back on future problems that may arise.

I think that men do not have the right to tell a woman what to do with her body. Once she had the child he could have sued her for child support and probably would have won. Maybe it was too emotional for her. It may not be fair but we get stuck holding the plate too many times. How many men say they will be A MAN and run. :p

The same number of women that say they are on the pill but become pregnant:D
How many men say they will be A MAN and run. :p [/B][/QUOTE]

Seriously - - - women often times shelter the responsibility but when men want the responsibility they are given the opportunity.

Let's look at this from a flipped point of view.
An acquintance of mine had a child out of wedlock 4 years ago. He is married now, to a different woman, and has two "legitimate kids". His beef is that he didn't want the child, and therefore, her mother should have been willing to abort the child coz he didn't want it. Well, she wanted, and had the child, which angers him to this day.
I believe she had a right to keep it. Why? Because here is a biological truth: when you roll with a woman, you enter an unofficial contract. You just MIGHT have child. So, in my belief, if she decided to keep it, the man has to live with it.
Thus, for the same reasons, I would like to see that a man has rights in terms of keeping a child. However, I don't think this is going to be an equitable issue, since women are the ones who actually carry the child. Thus, men have to know who they sleep with. That is the only way touchy issues like this can be avoided.

As a man I would make the case that I may not carry a child for nine months but I certainly pay for one for 18 years.:p

the law
 

If the child has 23 of the Man's chromosomes after birth, that child also has 23 of the Man's chromosomes before birth. It actually makes total common sense. No single person can create a child by themselves. The parents are equally the Man's and Woman's. So, as a Man, the child isn't yours till it comes out the womb? :rolleyes:

legally speaking .. that answer (currently) is YES !!! The child isn't yours till it comes out the womb..

Morally and figuretively, the answer is NO.. that : ball of cells, fetus, premie is as much yours as the Woman you mated with. The grey area comes in the fact that the child is carried in the Woman's body.

Re: Abortion and Mens Rights
 

After the child is born, yes.

This question is not totally on topic, but it's in the same ballpark.
For the men that believe that you should have rights to a child, what would you do in a situation where a woman has a miscarriage or has a stillborn baby? Will you assume responsibility for funeral costs? Counseling? Medical expenses? Do you feel that you would suffer the same emotional loss that a woman does?

I wish it were that simple....
 

...But it isn't. This is a very complicated issue. In my first post, I pointed out that men, women and THE CHILD have rights that are affected by this issue. In subsequent posts, I see people talking about men's rights and women's rights, but what about the rights of the child. Men and women have rights to protect themselves, but who protects the children?

From Refined diva....
It is this logic that has gotten us to this stage where we are weighing the lives of unborn children in the balance with our desires to pervert the intent of sex. Ultimately, sex is for the union of two people in holy matrimony to become like God in experiencing the ecstacy of producing life through love. (Gen. Chaptes 1&2). Though sex can be and is enjoyable, do not deprive it from it's divine purpose of giving us the possibility of brining forth life. Sex is more than just a pleasurable play thing, it is a form of worship. Pregnancy and the possibility of producing life is not a choice, it is a blessing from God, the ultimate blessing mind you. If it were a choice, then people having sex who did not want to get pregnant would never get pregnant and vice versa. This thinking shows how far we have gone from God's purpose for our lives and bodies.

As for swamp thang's post, I would like to urge all of us to consider Dr. King's sentiments in the letter from the Birmingham Jail. When the clergy of the south were implying that Dr. King was not right for breaking the laws of Jim Crow by protesting, Dr. King responded that just because something is illegal does not make it wrong. When you have an unjust law, you are not morally bound to adhere to it. In the case of a man's rights to a child legally beginning after birth, it is clearly an unjust and illogical law. We as a moral people should focus on the moral issues behind abortion and sex and decide to live our lives according to that moral law, not a socially constructed legal system.

I don't think men should have any say in what women decide to do with their bodies. That's way abortion ids legal now. The responsiblity for the child will basically be the mother's and if she is not ready to take it on no man should have a right to make her.

Re: Good Question
 

Actually that is inaccurate. A woman has the right to deny a FETUS the right to life. It's already been determined that if the fetus is dependant on the mother for survival, then technically it is still a part of her body and she can do as she pleases.

Communication is key, but knowledge is power. It doesn't really matter if a woman says she will never abort. Because when she gets pregnant she might decide to reverse her stance. Does the man have basis for action then because they communicated befiore a preganacy? Nope. Because he should KNOW that he has no rights. And what she says and what she decides to do with her own body is protected under law.

In this case, I am conflicted because I hate to see the man so handicapped in the decision to become a father or not. But, this is biology and law. Biology decides that the woman is the one who gets pregnant, so what happens to a body during a pregnancy happens only to her. Law says the baby is not a baby when it has no ability to thrive on its own. No rights for guys unless they find a way to grow a child to term outside of the woman's body.

Are you suggesting that men don't also feel hurt, loss, have need for counseling?

So
 

If an man is not ready to take on the financial responsibility of a child and may not want a child then the woman should shoulder the finances by herself?

bottom line to all
 

To the last two posters, what common sense makes the fetus not 1/2 the Man's till it pokes its head into the outside world.

Their's a time when the fetus isn't 1/2 the Man's... and that's when the fetus is called "an egg".

You and I go 1/2 on a sub. I have the sub in my possession (like Jared :cool: )

Is that sub all mine till I pull it out the bag and give you your 1/2?

Hell naw.. cause without your 1/2 of the $$$, I couldn't have PURCHASED the sub...

Okay.. it's a slaw example... but y'all know that we have laws that are on the books to protect our citizens for certain things.. but have been used by lawyers to include things the law wasn't meant for. Once an egg is fertilized, it has 1/2 the Man's DNA and 1/2 the Woman's..

I'm reading
 

I'm reading what everyone has to say and let me offer my opinion. I stated in another post that in this day and age there is no reason why pregnancy should occur, trust me I know nothing is 100%, but you can get very, very close. Here's the real question, everyday a woman decides to have a child that her "man" has said he does not want yet once the child is here, he's responsible. Why and how is that fair to him? A woman can decide not to have a child without his support or even including him in the decision process. I don't beliecve that this is fair. I am a firm believer that once you choose to have sex, you know that there is the possibility of becoming pregnant. Being mature enough to decide to have sex to me means being mature enough to raise a child. Each person you have sex with, you should think about whether or not you want to deal with this person for the rest of your life. If a woman has decided that she never wants to have children, then why not do what needs to be done to ensure that? Is abortion the answer?

Should a man be able to petition the court to stop his girlfriend from having an abortion? Well, that is his right. Should he win? Who am I to say, all I know is that if he is willing to step up to the plate, why can't he? Why should he be denyed his child? Women want equal rights on all counts so men should have the same rights, to decide whether or not to have a child.

One last thing, let me state my stance on abortion for the record. I consider myself to be pro-choice for political purposes because I believe that a woman has the right to chose. The Lord gave us that gift, the gift of choice. On a spiritual and personal level, I am against abortion because I believe life is life no matter how the scientists define it. Ultimately, the decision to abort or not to abort will be between the woman and God.

Re: bottom line to all
 

Okay, so the man can then take his half an embryo and go? :confused:

exactly
 

my point exactly... he contributed 1/2 of the makeup of said child just as the Woman did. But, y'all already know that.... Just go ahead and concied what is the truth.. If it's the Man's sperm as it goes into the womb and it's the Man's child once the baby comes out of the womb.., it stands to common sense and reason that it's also the Man's child in the womb..

It was not a suggestion. It was a question? Nothing more, nothing less.


Originally posted by Blackwatch
Ultimately, sex is for the union of two people in holy matrimony to become like God in experiencing the ecstacy of producing life through love.

That may be the case, however, if that is how things are today, why make birth control pills, condoms, and other forms of protection? If you know that you are STD-free, as well as your partner, then why not go at it without protection? Bottom line is, you wouldn't. It is unrealistic to think that all people will wait until marriage to have sex. It only happens for a small percentage. True, one must take responsibility for what comes out of sex, but if a woman chooses not to carry a baby, then that's her choice. Regardless of how one person feels about this on a religious/spiritual standpoint, someone else's religious views are totally different.

The matter can be argued until dinosaurs walk the earth again, but the answer will remain the same. NO ONE CAN FORCE A WOMAN TO CARRY A BABY. As straightBOS said, "Law says the baby is not a baby when it has no ability to thrive on its own. No rights for guys unless they find a way to grow a child to term outside of the woman's body."

Swamp thing, to break it down like you did, what if we both were hungry and you went out and bought a sub. Only thing is that I don't want the half of the sub that's mine. Do I still have to give you money for my half even if I don't want it? Like you said, "Once an egg is fertilized, it has 1/2 the Man's DNA and 1/2 the Woman's.. " So what if I don't want MY 1/2 to develop?

redefinedDiva
 

... that's the Million Dollar QUEStion RedifinedDiva...

The Fetus is made from the union of Woman and Man so, we'd think the Man would have some feeling of possession of the child being that it's his and some say so...

The moral issue is that 'his and her' child is developing in "her" uterus which is hers to do with as she sees fit.

These are hard QUEStions because there is black and white answers surrounded by shades of grey answers..

oh, and as far as the Laws go...
 

not too long ago in history, The Law was that African American People weren't people, but PROPERTY...

Y'all can get off the law of the land.. and continue to have this great discussion based on what's right...

Re: oh, and as far as the Laws go...
 

Huh? Did you miss the part about biology? :confused:

If you have the capablity to grow a child to term w/o a woman's body, then you can go play daddy anyday and no law can bother you. Until then...

Re: So
 

Duh! Women do it everyday! Ever heard the term "dead beat dad?"

Re: Re: So
 

True, and as an ombudsman for health and human services i also hear dead beat mom - - - either way it is loss on both accounts.

huh?
 

Straight BOS.. did you miss the Subject Line?

w/Swamp Thang
 

READER's NOTE: I (we - the four +/- guys that share this name) have read most of the posts on this discussion and I (certain moderators know who "the MAIN poster" is) will post on this individually and not collectively.

Before it even gets to this level, I tell ERE'woman that slepth with me what the deal is:

1 - THOU shall tell me if you get pregnant cause I have a right to know that it happened!
2 - THOU SHALL NOT GET AN ABORTION!
3 - THOU is against abortion regardless of the situation because it is a BLESSING and not a CURSE to bring life into THIS world!
4 - If you do not want to keep the baby, then all you got to do is carry it for six to nine months AND I WILL TAKE CARE OF THE REST WITH OR WITHOUT YOU!
5 - If by chance you pull one over me and get one anyway; don't ever speak to me again cause that is the one thing that would make me kick a woman's ASS (cause I have a right to defend my child, born or not)!
6 - If you can't get with rules 1-5, then me and you don't have no business being with one another... CASE CLOSED!

I say all this to say that the problem is with the decision to sleep (ya'll know what I mean) in the same bed in the first place without knowing who you sleep with. If one person is okay with killin' babies and the other is not, common sense should dictate that they shouldn't be sleeping together in the first place. But sometimes when you in that state of mind, you not thinking clearly.

In this day and age where folks complain about men and child support, I am supprised that one would DENY a man any kind of rights. Having said that a child is MAN's responsibility morally and legally. A REAL MAN would take care of a baby(fetus is a baby) before it is born and after it is born. So if the man wants to take care of the baby by himself, then by all means let him... especially if he is willing to fight for it.

To flip the script, how come it is right for GIRLS (fake women) to get abortions when they don't want the baby but it is wrong for BOYS (fake men) to quit paying child support when they don't want to take care of the baby. Virtually both of these idiots (again for lack of a better term) did the same thing, which was abandon the child and that action can cause both of them to kill it.

I will have to speak more on this once I get settled in from moving back to campus.

112

I speak for MYSELF when I say that I do not (particularly) agree with abortion, however, a woman has to right to have one. Period. Point blank. The topic at hand is if anyone can force a woman to carry a baby and do men actually have rights in the matter of whether a woman has an abortion or not. In theory, it would be great to say that men have rights. However, from a legal standpoint, THEY DO NOT. No court can force a woman to carry a child.

With that said, I will address matters realistically in the manner that an overwhelming percentage of pregnancies and abortions take place. I, PERSONALLY, don't know many women that have abortions without the consent, or overwhelming pressure, of the "father." There is no hoopla when a man pressures a woman to have an abortion because HE is not ready to have a baby. Of course, no one can really make a woman have an abortion, but if she feels that's what she wants instead of raising a child alone, having to live with the fact that her child is unwanted by the "father," giving the child up for adoption, etc., that's her business. The point is that when men don't want a kid, they can move on and do what they hell they want to do without looking back. Let's be honest. EVERY ONE of us knows someone that has gotten a woman into "trouble" and scrambled like a maniac to get the money together for an abortion. We all also know men that don't pay child support and/or don't want anything to do with their children. Now, because the woman wants an abortion for whatever reason that is personal to her or feel that SHE doesn't want the responsibility of a child, all the men are ready to stone her!

We can all agree to disgree or whatever, but abortion, adoption, child rearing, etc. are all matters of personal choice.

of course we can Diva
 

.... but the thread was created for having an open discussion. As of right now, the discussion is still very intelligent and hasn't broken down into emotion filled banter.

This QUEStion will currently always be answered... each do as their concious allows.. because although the child is the Man's and Woman's, the uterus is the Woman's..

My thing is that for every example, there's an equal counter-example. I have a female friend, right now, who has a daughter that the biological father doesn't know about... because she didn't want him to know about it ON PURPOSE...

She robbed him of fatherhood by omission. No Man can rob a Woman of Motherhood by omission cause alllll Women knooow that the child is hers and the pregnancy can't be hid FROM HER :D

I'm not a violent Man.. but if an old girlfriend showed up at my doorstep with a 8-12 year old walking mini-me child of mine, I'd take amazing restraint on my part not to kill her.. She's robbed me of: seeing my child born, naming my child, seeing all the 1st for the child (steps, teeth, words, etc)...

And she would've robbed the child of having a relationship with my side of the child's family.

The shame is that all of these contemporary moral issues that we've touched on have taken/are taking place...

Some of y'all are so self righteous.

Maybe THOU should get more infomation about the people you sleep with so you will know where they stand on abortion. That way you won't be surprised.

Maybe THOU should try to understand that it maybe your baby but it is still her body. You can't beat my ass about my own body. WTF!

My number one question is why is THOU having pre martial sex anyway? Since you are such a moral MAN!

Re: of course we can Diva
 

I'm not violent either... in most cases. But all I ask is that I have a chance to be part of any child I help create's life. That's all I'm asking for... I don't think that is TOO much considering you got these idiots out here who don't do sh-- for the six or eight kids they know about (and I have seen and heard about it with my own eyes and ears). That's why I say my piece up front and if that means I don't sleep with the woman then so be it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by thesweetstone
Some of y'all are so self righteous.

Maybe THOU should get more infomation about the people you sleep with so you will know where they stand on abortion. That way you won't be surprised.

Maybe THOU should try to understand that it maybe your baby but it is still her body. You can't beat my ass about my own body. WTF!

My number one question is why is THOU having pre martial sex anyway? Since you are such a moral MAN![/QOUTE]

I am not GOD, self righteous or perfect, I am a MAN........
and most men have two brains and sometimes one thinks for the other one at THE WRONG TIME [some of ya'll in the situation now as I type this]. I didn't say that every time I have sex (or if I have sex at all) I am right cause I don't have no ring on this finger. That's why I DO tell the women my rules upfront (I'm repeating that for this section) so it don't be no miscommunications/misunderstandings and my personal favorite NO EXCUSES for why she cannot abort MY/OUR BABY (be it in her body or not). But on a personal note, it doesn't get that far with me because I don't pick folks at random to sleep with [again, some of ya'll is in the situation now as I type this].

The why I may or may not be having (or have had) pre martial sex is another topic and sense I am A MAN, that will only be discussed with you when or if you become my woman cause some things just don't go outside the bedroom and should stay between the two people involved...



Q Mike Slim Daron Bobo Nuknuk PoBoy Marcus & Dem...
[singing]Leaving Bad Boy for life... (gotta help my boys get free).

112

Swamp Thang, I don't even want you answer (as you shouldn't) because you would be putting your friend's business out. However, the question is did your friend have a reason for not wanting to tell the man about the baby? I'm sure she did. And regardless of how she tries to downplay it, it had to be something serious. No man's genes are that good that HE had to be the one to impregnate her. Since she didn't tell him, it couldn't have been to trap him or get his money. Maybe your friend chose not to have this man a part of her baby's life for something that she deemed seroius enough not tell him about it. Your friend was strong and chose to raise her baby without the help of the father. However, some women don't want to do that. That's why they have the right to an abortion.

Secondly, I hear that some of you feel the need to "beat" a woman for having an abortion or not informing you of a child. Well, go right ahead because 1) you'll wind up in jail, 2) it won't bring your baby back, 3) you'll still have missed out on naming the baby, first steps, and all that other stuff you named, and 4) nothing will be different. You'll probably be worse off than when you found out. That approach won't solve anything.

Why is it that you all are blaiming women for all that goes wrong? If men claim that hey don't go around and have random partners, etc., then why not keep up with it? If you are only having sex with women that "know the rules" or that you care about, how can you let them out of your life for "8-12 years" without checking in on them? It becomes obvious after 5 or 6 months if you have an "issue" to discuss.

I see you Diva, I do...

..but it is the feeling of want to kick a girls ass (and talkingt to someone who has personally experienced this) that is strong. And no, he didn't do it but I understood the frustration he had.

You know as well as I do that sometimes, peeps think with their "other" brains and not the one that was created for thinking. And that is how the:
[QOUTE]how can you let them out of your life for "8-12 years" without checking in on them? It becomes obvious after 5 or 6 months if you have an "issue" to discuss.[/QOUTE]

happens.

Q Mike Slim Daron

I'll tell
 

Believe it or not, it was preconceived. You know how some women go through that phase of "I want to have a baby"? We'll, she told me that she wanted to have a baby and wanted to raise it by herself. I thought it was just a something she was saying in an emotional state... but, she got with a dude.. got pregnant... you know the rest..

When she was at about 6 months, I asked her about the father and she said she wasn't gonna tell him cause she didn't want any dude coming between her and HER BABY :(