"Texas fraternity's gunfire leads to brief police standoff"
 

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/tex...th-6870181.php

Bizarre... and inflammatory...of course they mention that it was a fraternity in the headline.

This "outing" shouldn't have been approved by their adviser, if they have one. Way too many things could've gone wrong; I'm glad no one was hurt.

^^^ Excellent point.

What is wrong with guys firing guns on private property on a ranch? If the had permission then why not??
If the were not breaking the law and after all, this is in Texas then what is wrong with this? Was this because it was a Fraternity?

Yes when The Law showed up they should have thrown up their hands and said Okay, we give up!

Ask Kevin if this was a legal search and lawful act. As an ex Police Officer, I would say NO!

That was my first thought.

I'm thinking about Dick Cheney accidentally shooting his friend while duck hunting a while back. I think a fraternity sponsored event involving guns is fraught with the potential for a serious accident...if they did do this, I think a supervised shooting range, like skeet shooting, would be better than private property. Some members may not have experience with firearms and gun safety. I get that they had permission and I don't think they deserve bad PR as a fraternity. However, this was not a good idea and I sincerely doubt their liability insurance carrier would support this kind of event.

Really your going to go there with that statement?? If it is not illegal then why was it even brought up in the first place???? It seems to be the Anti Greek Crap we see all of the time. Why did the Police make such a big deal out of it??

Midnight + 50 people with guns = bad idea. I'm not disputing their rights as individuals on private property. I'm saying this was a bad idea for a fraternity sponsored event.

^^^Have to agree with my sister.

New article saying they've "suspended operations" of the chapter:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...ng-6872476.php

My only guess is that it's a small ranch, with neighbors close enough to hear and be concerned. That part of S. TX has some huge ranches, but many are being broken up into "ranchettes" that have a regular HOA and laws like small cities and communities.

Also, keep in mind that area of the state is close to Mexico and people are on higher alert near the border because of the continuing violence that has happened on the other side.

Agree that it's (obviously) a horrible idea for a fraternity function. But, not technically illegal - IF they're on a larger piece of private property.

Some things can be both legal and a bad idea at the same time. This is a prime example and has nothing to do with "anti-greek crap."

Co-Sign

If alcohol was involved, as sometimes is the case with fraternity outings (not all, some), the potential for danger is sky high. Also, I'll assume most of these men were novice gun users and that makes it even riskier.

Even in rural Texas, there's gotta be other things to do - bowling, pizza party, miniature golf, camping trip, etc. With the money they spent on guns and ammo, they probably could've rented out a movie theater screening and watched "Zoolander 2" together.

I agree. Add alcohol and you really setting up a disaster.

If that's not what they wanted to do, the point is moot. That's imposing someone else's ideas on them.

If there was alcohol involved, it's not cited in the original news report.

I'm still not seeing the issue. No one was hurt; it was on private property. If it was rifles and shotguns, anyone over 18 may legally fire them safely. I see nothing here any more egregious than any other noise complaint over a fraternity outing.

Assuming most of these men were novice gun users in rural Texas is a pretty bold assumption.

Kevin's point is very well taken. This is Texas. My grandchildren shoot with their daddies. They comprise 3 girls and 1 boy. The youngest girl doesn't, she's too little. My four sons in law, my four daughters, myself and my husband all have our Concealed Carry License. I have chosen not to carry. By the time my grandchildren are 18 they know all about guns, how to take care if them, etc. this is Texas and how we live day to day. Now as a Sister who can approve or disapprove an event, I would be very Leary about approval with just the basic info. I'd add a lot of questions

Okay, let's say they were all experienced with handling guns (hard to believe, but I'll go with it), so what were they shooting at in the dark? At a firing range, there are targets - i.e. clay bunnies - that you can visibly see in daylight, but in the dark?

I understand guns are part of the Texas culture, but I haven't heard of California fraternities planning a surfing outing, or Colorado fraternities coordinating a rockclimbing outing. The liability if someone was to get hurt - by participating in something potentially dangerous that was organized as a chapter outing (vs. some of the guys going out on their own) - would weigh heavily on the chapter. They could've been sued for liability, had someone been accidentally shot.

As far as liability goes, we have insurance. As far as participating willingly in inherently risky endeavors, there's a thing called "assumption of the risk" which mostly protects organizations such as ours for the risky and ultimately harmful decisions some of our members make while at organized functions. I don't really care about all of that though.

In this case, what we know is that guns were fired and that an initiation ceremony was held. We also know that there were a few guns seized (which is routine) and that there were some low level citations. We know that there is an investigation ongoing and it's likely that's all we'll ever know.

I don't necessarily see a huge liability issue here absent other factors and of course, depending on the acreage of the land. My assumption, which I think is much safer than yours, is that young men in rural Texas firing guns are relatively harmless.

1) why is it so hard to believe? Just because it's outside your (perhaps narrow, based on your posts) area of exposure or knowledge means nothing.

2) again, just because you haven't heard of something happening doesn't mean it didn't occur. It just didn't cross your radar, or get any press, or whatever. Point in fact: a sorority I advised did an "adventure challenge" course involving rock climbing, zip lines, and various other activities. Did you know that? I don't think so. It happened. You just didn't hear about it. We didn't tell you.

As for a surfing outing, oh my gosh. You have got to be kidding me. We forgot to tell you about that too, apparently.

You might want to broaden your perspective a bit. And not stereotype locales while you're at it. I'm actually agreeing with Kevin, so I'm going to take a screen shot just to prove that this really happened.

Thank you AZ Theta!! My grandson shoots targets with his daddy, a Federal Marshal, with a 22 at age 2 and a half. That is normal in rural areas of Texas. As an Alumna and Volunteer Service Team member, I don't know if I would approve such an activity on the West Coast, where I was born and raised, but here I probably would. Girls shoot too!

Guess there's no such thing as a friendly, rational conversation on here. "Perhaps narrow, based on your posts" - that's low. I find that offensive, actually.

If we disagree about something, that's fine. But I'm not going to put you down for it, make you feel like a coward.

I don't find this particular story/topic to have a right or wrong, however I do think that this "outing" would not fly in many other parts of the country. I would have never signed off on it; even with the slightest risk factor, there are other things to do, I'm sure, in Texas.

I do think the liability insurance issue is genuine. As a house corp. president, I get the update emails from the insurance agency that is used by most NPC groups and they're on ultra-alert for all kinds of potential lawsuit issues...on and off property. The potential for increased rates and claims has dictated sorority policy changes in several areas. I just don't think this chapter's insurance carrier would be thrilled with this event.

Kevin, thank you for discussing this in a rational manner without trying to make me feel like an idiot. I think we can agree to disagree, but I respect your points.

Really? Suddenly you're a fraternity adviser when a couple of weeks ago you didn't even know how to donate your discarded furniture to your chapter or whether or not they would want it.

You repeatedly make posts acting incredulous about Greek happenings and campuses when it is clear you haven't been involved with your fraternity post-college and those other people are very active in their organizations on local, national and conference levels.

And Greekchat doesn't have room for all points of view? And inquiries from Greeks of all ages and all points of the globe? (tulip86 and the posters from Indonesia and England, thinking of you)

SS, I temporarily removed you from my GC ignore list here to see whether you posted something worthwhile. In this case, again, not. So back to the ignore list you go.

You're connecting dots that aren't even in the same time zone, for the love of Mike. Sorry I'm not sorry. NEWS FLASH: I can't make you feel anything. I don't have that kind of power. That's on you, not me. Nope. Not my issue. Seems there's something else at play here.

By the looks of things, you don't like it when someone disagrees with you, or doesn't say something the way you want to hear it; and you take umbrage at what you perceive to be a slight, or any comment that isn't bathed in sugar and kid gloves. You won't get much rainbow blowing here, so if that's what you need, you're going to be disappointed.

Hint: there's a great feature on GC where you can ignore a poster. I suggest you put me on your ignore list so I won't hurt your feelings ever again. Others probably will, but I won't.

"The group didn't surrender when police shouted out instructions over a loudspeaker. So about 25 officers entered the ranch."

I'm guessing that this is the crux of the issue here. That, and the fact that the gunshots were heard at night and the police were called after midnight.

There's no issue here in Texas for a few friends to get together in daylight and shoot some clays. BUT gunshots in the middle of the night plus not heeding police instructions plus the high possibility of alcohol being involved.

This issue also goes beyond whether or not these guys know how to properly handle the guns. The gunshots beg the question of what exactly what they were shooting at. Target shooting in the middle of the night with potentially drunk people walking around sounds like a terrible idea. Shooting straight up in the air, Arab Spring-celebration style sounds equally harebrained.

Those guys are lucky that things didn't escalate when they didn't immediately respond to the police's instructions.

I love that there's just not enough information in the article to really figure out what happened here.

"The group didn't surrender when police shouted instructions over a loudspeaker."

This occurred on a ranch. Were the men inside or outside when the police arrived? How far away were police? Were there trees or obstacles obstructing views?

There's not a single mention of alcohol. You would think that the police might have mentioned underage drinking if underage drinking was going on. Again, if we're talking about rural Texas, despite stereotypes and especially with nary a word from any party regarding alcohol, to simply assume it was there is borderline offensive.

Things may have changed A.LOT. since I was in college but there is (was) a pretty clear if/then statement of If fraternity get together Then alcohol. That's not about Texas or about people on ranches or people who like guns. It's about fraternities. Maybe it's wrong and maybe it's offensive, but that is the only reality most of us know in that respect.

We are missing a bunch of information here, but I think it is pretty safe to say gun use is a huge liability. Yes, accidents happen even in the most careful of situations. And as an advisor (I'm not one right now) the only and I mean ONLY way I'd approve an event like that would be at a licensed facility so that they could take the liability, not me. Bunch of angels who never did anything wrong who want to go shoot guns on private property after dark? No. There is just no reason why this is an option a legitimate function needs. And the reality is these guys are probably not a bunch of angels; they're normal college age kids who need way more adult supervision than they think.

I don't think it's fair to say this was planned as a shooting activity, either. Despite our insistence that we're for "men" and "women" - in reality, in today's world, we treat our members as if they were children, so no, no advisor is going to approve an outing where "we're gonna go to a ranch and fire off a few rounds into the air".

What we know: No one was hurt.
What we don't know:
- There is no statement that the firearms were being used recklessly.
- There is no indication that alcohol was involved.
- There is no indication that any of those involved were to young to be handling firearms (18 is the legal age to own, and carry long guns; 21 is the legal age to carry handguns; there are no age restrictions on use, but use by minors does in most states require permission if not active presence of a parent or guardian)

If those involved were too far away to hear loudspeakers (again - we don't know), it might be safe to assume they were also away from inhabited buildings and/or wearing ear protection. Hmmmmm, guess we don't want to consider that they may have been acting safely.

My 2 cents: I don't care if people want to exercise their 2nd amendment rights; just because I don't personally have an interest in firearms doesn't mean other people can't or shouldn't. Who am I to tell people how to spend their free time?

On the other hand, I am a firm believer in responsible gun ownership. If you own a gun, you need to recognize that it can be used to hurt or kill people; it's important to be mindful of that fact, and to handle a firearm the same way you might handle a sharp kitchen knife or a bow and arrow. The majority of decent, legal gun owners do all these things, but every once in a while I think people forget how much these guns can hurt people, because they haven't seen it happen themselves.

If you check out the Wikipedia article on celebratory gunfire, it has some info about firing off rounds up into the air and what the consequences can be. Bullets that come up have to come down; sometimes, they come down harmlessly, near where they were fired--but sometimes, they come down on people and their property. Depending on the angle you fire at, bullets can arc miles away from where you are, so even if you're on a large piece of property when you fire, it's not a guarantee that the bullet is going to come down someplace safe.

According to the article, anyone in Texas who injures or kills someone with a stray bullet can face "serious felony charges." As someone who's only 21, I can sure as hell tell you that I would never risk becoming a felon for the brief adrenaline rush that comes from firing a gun like that. Having that on your record absolutely ruins your job prospects and strips you of a number of personal rights... I can understand wanting to shoot some guns with your friends, but it's important to consider the consequences of all the actions you take (even the non-gun-related ones).

Here's the thing I hate about this thread. Without a shred of evidence, many of us are ready to shut this chapter down because they MUST have been doing something horrible--and maybe they were. But as Greeks, we need to be in the business of defending our organizations to the public and realizing that most organizations have very capable alumni volunteers like us involved and people are generally making good decisions. Let's give our own the benefit of the doubt. If we are all so negative about our own, why would we expect outsiders to be any more charitable?

This is fair--looking at my post now, I think it is a bit excessive for the actual reporting content of the article (though I won't edit it, since that would just be cowardly at this point). Guns and gun handling are a very inflammatory debate, I think. Our political opinions are overriding our sense of unity regarding our Greek brothers and sisters. Maybe we should take a step back until more information comes out.

I agree!