Oscars.... "Sorority racist"
 

Chris Rock says that Hollywood is "sorority racist." We really like you, but you're just not a Kappa. :p

;) Chris Rock -- he's participating in "tent talk"!

I thought that was funny!

I may or may not have snorted when he said that.

I am so glad y'all didn't have a cow. I literally was like OH GOD GREEKCHAT WILL BE AFLAME. LOL

Most of us have a sense of humor. *Most* being the key word.

Well, of course not everybody saw the humor....

Sorority Racist

Way to pick out tweets to suit your agenda.

Historically white sororities and fraternities are institutionally racist by their very nature. That doesn't mean that individual chapters and members aren't doing good things, but if your organization favors legacies or women with recs, you are automatically expressing a preference for white membership.

I have a problem with this comment. It will be 16 years in the future, but my two year old fully Hispanic, adopted granddaughter will have multiple recs if needed. She is my granddaughter and she is beautiful. She also has three aunts and her mother to write recs. Another daughter who is "approved and waiting" in the adoption process may have a daughter who is green with purple polka dots. She will also be showered with recs. The only thing I automatically do is love my grandchildren.

That's not what DeltaBetaBaby is saying. It's truly great that your grandchildren in your situation will have recs/legacy status - it's wonderful for them! But historically, people of color have not had the same opportunities to become members of historically white GLOs as white people. Therefore, as a whole, they have fewer opportunities to be legacies/find recs. It's an institutional issue, not an individual one.

A chapter sister of mine & her hubby adopted a child from Guatemala. She'll be legacy and have a zillion recs if she goes to a school with Alpha Xi Delta. If she goes to a school that doesn't have AXiD, I'll give her info to get recs from other Panhellenic friends.

Of course a child of color who is adopted by a white family would have access to recs and legacy status. That's the privilege of whiteness in this case.

The African American valedictorian, volleyball/women's basketball captain, student government president of a predominately black DC Public School will not have the same opportunity. She is not only far less likely to have NPC members in her family, but she's unlikely to have NPC members in her community.

A Latina with similar credentials would be even worse off, as her community and family is less likely to be college educated at all in a city like DC, so while the black achiever has the potential for NPHC connections, the Latina achiever has none.

The institution itself is actually racist. This is before you even get to the question of whether "Rhonda" is "Kappa" or not.

Exactly.

1) Doesn't this vary by region? In California and Pacific Northwest, there is a significant percentage of Asian students joining fraternities and sororities. In Florida, where my brother went to college, there were quite a few Hispanic men in fraternities.

And I believe there's a slight increase of East Indian students also going through recruitment each year, at least from some of the recruitment videos posted online from my fraternity.

2) I know that some African-American students choose to join multi-cultural fraternities; so they haven't been discriminated against, they simply just chose to join those fraternities instead.

People say that fraternities and sororities have been, and continue to be, racist. But maybe it's really because the number of minority students going through recruitment is low to begin with.

I'm really glad y'all didn't get the vapours from what Chris Rock said. I thought it was HILARIOUS. One of my friends texted me to see if I was offended. I didn't even respond because I didn't want to be her black perspective on that joke.

I would actually think it was more classist than racist--I know that I had no problem getting the recs I needed, and my niece certainly didn't (even at an SEC school, y'all!). That's less an individual exception than reflective of the increasing social capital of families of color.

While institutional racism is sometimes inextricably linked with classism, it's rather unfair to intimate that black/Latino automatically means "unable to get recs," because it's just as likely that a working-class white student would face the same difficulties. The institution is just as classist as it is racist.

I've always viewed that (Legacies/Recs) as being classist as well. I'm glad fraternities don't put much emphasis on them as the sororities do, because as the first in my family to go to college and not knowing a single Greek, I probably would have never received a bid.

1) It can. I used DC as an example because it's what I know and because the racial and class dynamics support my argument more. LOL

2) Are you talking about multicultural fraternities or are you talking about predominately black fraternities? Those are two different things. At any rate, we're not really talking about students who make the conscious decision to join those types of organizations, are we? And while black fraternities would have existed regardless, what we're really talking about here is the structure of white fraternities and sororities.


But in the case of a white student from a working class family, they would have still had college-educated teachers at the very least, right? To me, that's more what white privilege is-- that a white child/girl/teen could still have access to certain institutions in spite of their economic standing, rather than people of color gaining access through their economic standing.

I suppose there are always exceptions, like the white family in the predominately black school district.

I'm not sure when recs became formalized/institutionalized...that would be a good question to ask nyapbp. I do believe they perpetuate the status quo. Women don't even know to get them if they're not "hip" to the expectation. However, I think it's like having 2 recs to join a country club, or having members nominate new members for other organizations. "Recs" for any organization are not geared toward helping the "upwardly mobile" or diversifying the membership -- generally, they're geared toward recruiting those who will "fit in" with the existing expectations.

May I ask if there is some of this within NPHC groups? I've had the perception that there are very high standards for membership, legacies are valued, and those who are new to the intake expectations probably aren't going to fare as well...being clueless could ruin someone's chances.

There are some parallels but I don't think they are rooted in class.

For example:

While being a legacy, in some sense, can only help you if all parties are playing by the book, flaunting your legacy status is such a grave faux pas that you could be blackballed.

I think that aside from the cost, the various NPHC selection processes are fairly blind to social status. Service and achievement are transcendent.

And again, for those orgs where a recommendation is necessary, it's more likely that a black student from an underresourced school system had one teacher at some point who was a member of their org of interest. Remember that there are far less NPHC orgs than the others.

I don't think that's true, but even if it is, it doesn't somehow erase the institutional racism.

It's the "knowing the unwritten rules that members know" that I find compelling -- for NPC and NPHC -- it does seem to give an advantage to those with connections or enhanced prior knowledge. I have seen the mentoring teacher/administrator in action amongst two faculty members I know who are members of a particular NPHC sorority -- they are definitely involved in the recruitment process.

The cost of membership is prohibitive to many women, and we really aren't doing anything about that. You have to be able to pay. I have seen this issue come up frequently, but not overt racism (not to say it doesn't happen, just that I haven't witnessed it personally as an issue with active members).

Not that long ago, "getting recs" was not something that a PNM did. The onus was on the sorority to get a rec for her. PNMs weren't expected to do anything except show up for recruitment - all the rec stuff was with the chapter requesting recs from alumnae in the girl's hometown.

But with huge numbers of PNMs going through, there's no way a chapter could request and get recs on every girl going through. That's why the practice has become for the PNM to get her own recs. Chapters still request them from alumnae, though.

I understand what you're saying, but for clarification, are you trying to compare it to structural racism or nah?

I'm veering off on a tangent that has long weighed on my mind, which is that racist and classist structures incorporate processes that are designed to maintain the status quo, and the rec process seems to be one of those processes. It creates an obstacle...one that is easy to overcome if you readily know alumnae members, and one that is difficult (and that you may be unaware of) if you don't.

I'm really curious about how and why the process started...was it just a means to sincerely and formally recommend members and maybe keep that process fair and streamlined, or was there a more insidious purpose behind the process, like keeping out those who "don't belong?"

^^^I think that's a really interesting question. And while I don't KNOW the answer, my guess is the process started just because that's what private clubs do. Junior League to Exchange Club all require recommendations, regardless of how seriously an individual club will take that process.

But considering the NPC sororities don't seem to have fought too hard against the race issue (we did adapt relatively early in the civil rights movement, if not exactly warmly or across the board), I would guess it wasn't with malice, just an unknowing sense of entitlement. Many women throughout the last 50 years (and still) don't get that the process alone of requiring a rushee to get recs can be racist or classist (and yes, I agree that it is more classist than racist).

I would love for this to be the reason that all sororities eliminate the requirement for them. But we know how much my opinion is worth. :)

I don't mind NPC/IFC. I joined a sorority to get my Mrs. Degree. I didn't even bother going to classes or hanging out with the sisters. I just hung out with our "brother" fraternity. Them white boys were loaded! ...well at least their families were.

Did I say it erased the institutional racism? I still find that NPC sorority life is just as classist as it is racist. I did not write that it is not racist at all, did I?

Aside from any racial implications, legacy status and recs have always kind of bothered me. And again, I'll preface this by saying that I come from a small recruitment system.

While both legacy status and recs most likely helped in the past, I think they're becoming less and less important in the grand scheme of things. Not that I'm arguing that getting recs isn't important for a successful recruitment (in some places), but that their overall influence has been lost. The same goes for legacy status, as there are now too many legacies going through recruitment. And I know some sororities require that legacies make it to a certain round in the recruitment process, which can sometimes tie the hands of individual chapters. But I won't delve into specific NPC sorority policies here.

The legacy problem is clear: with the exponential increase in membership year after year, there will only be more and more legacies, the "specialness" goes away, and the numbers become too much to handle.

As for recs: I've asked it here before and I'll ask it again... why can't a recommendation come from a teacher, a coach, a pastor, an employer, a mentor, etc. of a PNM instead of a sorority alumna? Why does it make more sense for a girl to desperately search for a rec from anyone and everyone, just to check off a box that essentially says, "This person barely knows me, but they think I'm great!" than to have a formal recommendation from a person who knows the girl and can truly vouch for her?

I think that sororities miss out on the opportunity to meet some amazing women because of legacies/recs. And no, I'm not saying that chapters are struggling for members and NEED more women to sign up for recruitment. I'm saying that there are probably some fantastic potential members who don't have the same opportunities as others, who start out at the bottom or behind, who don't know anything about recs, who get cut for not being related to a member, or for a number of other reasons that really are a shame.

With MUCH shorter new member periods, I think recommendations are more important than ever. Check out a PNM beforehand, and you can avoid some drama and other unfortunate behavior that results in a hot mess that has to be untangled later and possibly affect the chapter's reputation.

That said, ya'll are giving WAY too much weight to legacy status. Being a legacy is not really that big a deal. In many cases it is a very small percentage of the total number of PNMs. Yes, theoretically, the precentage may increase over time. It's never a guarantee of a bid.

Recommendations - that's one reason many alumnae panhellenics put together teas and info sessions for PNMs and collect info packets. I just wish alum panhellenics and the assistance with recs was more widespread.

We're never going to persuade each other to our own point of view. We're going to have to agree to disagree.

I also note that the majority of schools where recs are a must are located in the South. Every rec I've ever written has been for a PNM going to a southern school. Just pondering if there's any significance there.

I'm not an expert on how competitive rush is everywhere, but with SEC schools, it's VERY competitive with sometimes almost a 1,000 girls going through and my guess is that you have to make yourself stand out in a good way. I didn't go to an SEC uni, but know many who did and went through rush. Holy cow. I don't know how they survived. lol

To be clear, recs are not the only thing that make NPC groups structurally racist, it's just the most obvious and easiest to talk about.

Agreed

Does anyone know if the schools that have formal recruitment for men also suggest/require recs?

I can't imagine that they would (in the traditional NPC sense) only because there are so few schools participating in formal that it would seem crazy to require recs.

But I could be wrong.....?

IFC has formal recruitment in January at my daughter's school (W&L). It used to be the same week as sorority recruitment, but this year it was a week later. I haven't heard of anyone getting recs, but fraternities have the fall to figure out who's on their radar...to the point where formal recruitment is just a formality (pardon the pun).

I'm advisor to a fraternity chapter at a small Midwestern school, and you're correct, recs are a rarity. But actually, when we do get one, the guys are usually happy about it because it shows interest in the chapter in addition to being a heads up on a possible new brother. Our Headquarters, of course, asks that we take legacies seriously and afford them every courtesy. But we don't have the sorority legacy hierarchy of only daughters, sisters, etc.
And--most of our recs come via email or simply a "heads up" at homecoming: "wanted to let you guys know that my nephew, so and so, just moved onto campus as a freshman."
We also actually get more non-legacy recs: neighbors, brothers of girlfriends, high school friends, etc.One aspect of recs I DO enjoy is explaining from a graduate's perspective how important it is the be respectful of anyone who takes enough time to recommend a young man and then encouraging an officer to send a thank-you note and then a follow-up following rush. Also, reminded the guys to be positive and courteous to the young man, even if it seems evident he would not be a good fit.
So from an advisor's perspective, recs can be used as a teaching tool of sorts; so many young people today are ignorant of the social skills and obligations those of us who are older grew up with.

For whatever it's worth, Huffington Post published an article (more op ed) about it.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jared-..._9384976.html?

I thought this was a remarkably astute article. I especially liked the term Default Conservatism. I have for some time differentiated between social or fiscal conservatism and the "we don't want change" conservatism. Now I have a term for it.