Rankings?
 

Where do you go to find out about rankings of fraternities and sororites? Is there a site where the result of polls are shown? Or, does anyone know who is rated the number 1 fraternity and sorority?

Ain't gonna go there. Too many variables and too much loyalty. We all think our own organization is the best -- and, in at least some ways, we all are.

Ha ha, DeltAlum...I was thinking the same thing. Too sensitive a subject. The most diplomatic thing to say is, "We are all the best in our own ways." And there is no way you could call any brotherhood or sisterhood any better than the rest, though some may be better than others in different categories, and even then how can you evaluate everyone considering how different chapters are within each organization? It's all subjective.

All groups are the best in some way or another. I dont think that there is #1 fraternity or any thing like that. If you want info on certain groups, go to the international(headquarter) websites and usually under the facts link they have stuff posted.

I think the ranking should be a personal one, the best organization (for you) is the one you fit into the best. All groups have their strengths and weaknesses but it's not for anyone but yourself to decide what's the best. One that might be right for someone else, might not be right for you and vice versa. All groups deserve lots of credit for everything though. Just my thought.

Well, I heard if ASA beats Georgia Tech in the Rose Bowl, we'll move up to #5. :rolleyes:

In case you haven't guessed, the whole concept of "rating" or "ranking" sororities and fraternities is utterly ridiculous.

The ghost of Wilson Heller
 

Although he died more than 10 years ago, there was a guy named Wilson Heller, a PiKA from U. Mo. living in Southern California, who had an accurate national ranking system for chapters. It was his hobby.

Some national GLOs (most quietly and totally secretly) helped him distribute ranking questionaires to chapter presidents, and he used these to "rank" the chapters on every campus by "power, prominence, and prestige" - and this was quite a job at places with 30-plus chapters - plus maybe 20 sororities too. At one time, I think U.Ill. had 52 to 57 chapters. The chapter president was asked to rank all chapters except his own, and then asked "honestly, where would others rank your chapter?"

He would prepare a report for the national GLO, with his ranking each chapter, something like:

U of AL: ranked 12 to 15 of 25
Auburn: rank 5 to 6 of 21

It might also include a note (up slightly, or falling fast), comparing this year's ranking with the past.

He also combined all of these campus rankings into a "National GLO rankings", ranking your GLO and mine from 1 to 60 (or however many there were). He did the same for the 30-some sororities.

Wilson Heller also published a monthly by-subscription newsletter, with all the news you wouldn't see in the national GLO magazine. This newsletter was barely better than mimeographed - appearing to always be typed on an old typewriter needing a ribbon (which it was). Contents included chapter deaths/suspensions, scandals, and lies which he caught in GLO magazines.

Altho many many of the nationals subscribed and paid for Heller's rankings and newsletter (he had 3,000 subscribers), it was all secret. At each annual meeting of the NIC, editors, and professional staff, someone (a real stuffed shirt) would bring up a motion "let's condemn anybody who ranks chapters and nationals", and it would be passed unanimously annually. As soon as these staff people got back to the office, they would write or phone Heller and report that they had unanimously voted again to comdemn him - and everyone had a good chuckle.

Usually at the annual NIC meeting, Heller would show up and sit around in some corner, renewing his friendships with national GLO leaders. He never registered for the NIC or attended any function.

He was a great friend of many, was a great storyteller, and enjoyed a cold beer any time after work. Professionally, he had been a PR man and agent for some well-known Hollywood stars.

During his younger years, he traveled the nation, and visited many chapters of PiKA and other GLOs. In some of these other GLOs, the chapters liked him so much that they bought him a life-time subscription to the GLO mag. In later years, he loved to annoy national GLOs (who were not among his supporters) by reminding them that he was a lifetime subscriber to their magazine.

When he died, his records and data were supposed to be passed along to another southern Cal fraternity nut (he's now dead too), but if that happened it was for naught. Nothing ever was published following his death.

The national GLO rankings in Heller's later years agreed with the opinions of most people who have visited lots of campuses and chapters, with SAE and Sigma Chi tops among the men and Chi Omega and Kappa Kappa Gamma highest among the women. It probably hasn't changed much to date.

Heller constantly wrote and preached that "size solves all problems", and comparing the rankings with chapter sizes confirmed that the chapter presidents generally ranked their own campus chapters' "power, prominence, and prestige" very closely following size. The myths of "small quality chapter" and "quality, not quantity" are just that - sound good, but just myths.

One time I was hired to be chapter advisor for a weeny chapter, that was old, well housed, and had wealthy alumni. Heller sent me a note: "Take anybody wearing pants." Taking a houseful of pants-wearer probably would have done the job, but I couldn't talk the men into it.

If life (even on campus), there's competition. Where there is competition, there are comparisons - even rankings.

Everyone on your campus has an opinion on "what's the top GLO here" (if you can't choose your own) and in 90% of the cases or more the opinions will agree.

I wish Wilson Heller was still around, annoying the stuffed shirts with his rankings.

Omigosh. I saw that in the seventies! My boss, the dean of Student Activities came in, shut the door, and whispered that she had a copy of it and was acting like we had a copy of Playgirl the way she was hiding it. I guess it would've looked bad for her, the Panhel Advisor, to be seen with it.

You're right, it looked like some guy did it on his manual.

Re: The ghost of Wilson Heller
 

Our history manual, "The Oak - A History of Pi Kappa Alpha", does have mention to rankings of fraternities in the 50s and 60s. I would suspect that Wilson Heller was behind these. Pretty much it talks about how we were a "middle of the road" fraternity, so at least he wasn't biased!

It is really interesting to hear about this though. I've always been curious about Greek rankings and how they are calculated, so thanks for the info!

One good thing about a small school and a small greek system - no matter what, we are one of the top 3 NPC groups on campus!

Ok, so there are only 3...

TG

Boy you said that right! I'm from a campus where the greek system is small which means we are always in the top three. But we would be in the top three if we were at a big greek campus too! ;)

Interesting.....I guess it is pretty much the same today as it was back then in terms of "power, prominence, and prestigue". Some chapters have it and others lack it. A couple of months ago I came upon the gallop poll on the subject of rankings, and it was pretty much accurate as to what chapters made the list or not.

The information on Heller and his ranking system was interesting. I was curious and so I looked on the net for further information. He died in 1983 and left all of his documentation to a Masonic brother, William T. Bringham, Sr., former president of the National Interfraternity Foundation. Bringham served 35 years as chief administrative officer of Sigma Chi and executive director of the Sigma Chi Foundation. When Brigham in turn past away he gave Heller's papers to the Stewart Howe Foundation and the University of Illinois Archives in 1992. The material still resides there and is accessible to the public.

Re: The ghost of Wilson Heller
 

Re: Rankings?
 

Please post this in Pi Kappa Alpha site, too....
WILSON BENTON HELLER was born in NE 1 Aug 1893. He died in LA 30 June 1983. Joined PiKA at U Mo about 1913. He served in WWI as a flyer and was an "ace." He was a press agent and erstwhile actor's agent in Hollywood. His hobby was
indeed fraternties, and all the other observations of him on this
site.,so far as I know, are quite accurate.
Wilson was disenchanted with Pike, then generally called PiKA or Pi Kap, and was impatient about growth. He was isolated from the "honor seekers and freeloaders (his words)" and held
most college deans and administrators in utter contempt.
He hated the old line fraternities, favored the newer ones, especially TKE and Sig Ep. Both Teke and Sig Ep were on the expansion trail, and this writer was a TKE field man from '57 t o '60. I met Wilson many, many times and fed him a lot of info, got
many letters from him, typed generally, single-spaced, margin-to-margin, on scraps of paper. I have kept a lot of those notes from him. And I have copies of most of this ratings. He did not
play fair, I thought, in total national strength ratings in the obtained a score, multiplied it by the number of chapters, and, voila! The larger outfits were always up there. There is few who
would doubt that SAE was best-run outfit in '50s, though. But no one would doubt that Heller loved the Greeks and his jabs were intended at goading them to improve their lot...
Wilson would rarely wear a white shirt. He preferred a logger-
type, perhaps a print, likely corduroy and a bow tie, not at all in
fashion.
Wilson could not be cajoled, bought, intimidated or harassed by
anyone. Favor seekers were generally rebuffed. He was going
to leave his stuff to the late George William Woolery, TKE, who
was sick and eventually died from complications of diabetes. He did not leave the things to George and I always wondered where they went.....thanks, informant! He was going to proivde
handily for Dick Hall (TKE)'s kids in his will but never did and his
widow, I am told, left it all to the LDS church. Heller was quite fond of Dick Hall, then TKE Executive Secretary. He thought that
Nelson George Burhans (TKE, Hartwick) was the smoothest, the most mannered, and polished fielder to ever become a knight of the road. Had little regard for the NIC or the Banta group. He sent out thousands of surveys to college campuses
all over the country, and was pretty accurate, whether we liked it
or not. Placed emphasis on size, and has never been successfully refuted (his words, too). WBH was unique....
Wilson would be very proud of Pi Kappa Alpha today, arguably the hottest ticket amongst the greeks at the moment.
I have some wonderful memories of Heller, and he said a lot of
nice things about that brash young Kansan who got results in
the '50s. Wilson, old pal, we need you today, we really do.
Erik P Conard, TKE, PhD, active again after many years away....

My golden Angle, once again you prove youself to be the Greatest!

Damn I wish you were a LXA!:D

Who can take your place as the knowledgeable go to the great Alum in the Sky!:confused:

Some have lived it in a breif span of time and others are just stating!

God Bless us All!

A resource
 

Indiana's Center for the study of Fraternities will do this for you (sort of, it looks like it stays confidentiol). Try here and go to the section titled "Evaluations".

Take Care Here
 

refering to the Indiana link as a rankings source. That is a great resource, but do not confuse their internal 'evaluations' with what Wilson Heller created and promoted. The 'evaluations' are internal, and have to do with enhancing the quality of the undergraduate experience. This is very valuable, but it does not address how a particular fraternity or sorority is perceived among peers. Heller's survey, also extremely valuable and useful, was based strictly on external perception. His catchphrase was "prominence, power & prestige". No one does this anymore, but it's a simple mechanical process can be accomplished on any given campus. In practical terms, it's most useful in allowing an 'underperforming' organization to see where they stand in the eyes of their peers, and by extension, the potential rushees.

Ranking
 

Well I think that ranking national organizations is nearly IMPOSSIBLE, despite any previous attemps that have been made. You can measure how much money one foundation brings in or how many initiated members there are, but what does that really say??? I don't want to offend anybody by saying this but I've had friends make some pretty snide comments about some of those particular houses that were found to be 'top' [KKG, Chi-O, SAE and Sigma Chi) on their particular campuses.

Every campus and every individual has a different opinion of what makes a house 'good'. My favorite frats, both from my campus and others, weren't always the strongest in terms of numbers, campus presence or parties, but it was the men that made them up and what kind of people they were. Again, this is an ever-changing variable.

I think you can rank sororities the same way.

Love & AOE from the Pacific Coast :cool:

Re: Re: Rankings?
 

Did you go to school with him?

Before Heller....
 

I am told that Heller simply continued the ranking system started by William R. Baird, the same one who wrote the first few editions of Baird's Manual of American College Fraternities. During the hundred or so years the rankings were performed, I understand that one fraternity came out on top with an almost embarassing frequency. I don't want to start a flame war, and the latest rankings are about 20 years obsolete now, so I won't bother saying which one it was.

The bottom line is that whatever rankings there were had to be somewhat subjective, and thus should not be relied upon to make life-long decisions. As we repeat to every rushee that will listen, "All fraternities are good fraternities". Is there a best fraternity? Sure there is--the one that's best for you. Seek and ye shall find.

News to me
 

I doubt the accuracy of this, but ole Eric may know.

The Bairds and Bantas were the revered Gods of the Fraternity World.

I doubt that Wilson Heller continued anything started by Baird, although he frequently commented that the first few issues of Baird's Manual were good - usually in the context that the later issues were useless and inaccurate.

I went into one of my pledge sisters rooms one day, and taped to the wall, her roommate (of a different sorority) had this:

Fraternities we'll mix with:
Sigma Chi
Lambda Chi
Sigma Nu
Sig Ep
Pi Kapp
Fraternities that won't talk to us:
Sigma Alpha Epsilon
Kappa Alpha Order
Alpha Tau Omega
Fraternities that we don't mix with: (I won't reveal what this list was;-)

Unfortunately, a Chi Psi (the fraternity that we were doing homecoming with this past year) came up to the room with one of my pledge sisters and found this list. They weren't listed at all (not even in the "fraternities we don't mix with") so he was pretty ticked, and brought the list back to the fraternity hall and showed it to his brothers. Even more unfortunately, when I went up there for homecoming business, he spewed off about how stuck-up sorority girls were, etc, etc... Ever since then I try not to say what my "favorite" fraternity is. I'll say stuff like, "Yeah, I had SO much fun at Carolina Cup with the Sig Eps" or "The Sigma Chi's were SO nice to me the other night when I was on the hall." I figure I wouldn't like it if some fraternity guy kept telling me how KD was his "favorite sorority" right in front of me (even though I love them, TOO!) I figure I get along with different fraternities than some of my sisters do, for different reasons, and everyone should keep that open of a mind.

Not Mixin
 

Dont they have a TKE chapter there, are they one of the ones yall dont mix with? It doesnt matter either way I was just curious?

Yeah, actually, there is a TKE chapter... keep in mind that this wasn't my sorority that did the list, please!:-) But, I left it off accidentally. They actually do mix with TKE.

cool
 

Thats good to hear......

George Banta was DG! Woo hoo! (Just brought that up since you brought up the "Gods of the fraternity world')

I think it is really hard to rank houses at your school only because some houses have problems with other houses, so if you talk to memebers of those houses then you might get a lower impression of them, but the house could stil be a good house. Sorry that sounds a little confusing but I hope you all understand! I really think if you plan on ranking houses at your school you need to look at numbers each house gets during rush, when the fraternities ask sororities for exchanges do the sororites say yes(well at my school at least), and lastly the houses who have a ton of spirt, and people always want to be aound the particular fraternity or sorority. I have heard so many people rank people at my school differntly that it really depends on if you are talking to older members or younger members! Houses can change positions so quickly too that it is almost stupid to say who is the best and who is the worst!!

I have to ask... why would anybody even THINK that putting something like this down on paper is a good idea.... and then to put it on your dorm room wall? Did she need to check every day which fraternities she can 'mix with'? Sorry, just strikes me as really weird....

CIAO
:cool:

THE RANKING>>>
 

#1 Sigma Chi
#2 everyone else

;)

I can see the point of ranking specific, objective things - GPAs among chapters, endowment among nationals, number of members, number of chapters, etc. You could even get more subjective and rank, say, housing. (Chapter A has the biggest, Chapter B doesn't have a house, Chapter C's is small).

But how do you rank the more subjective "best"? I know a chapter that has a lot of members, great grades, everything seemingly going for it. The other chapters can't stand them - and it's not jealousy; they like the other chapter with the numbers and grades and leaders. But this one house has a bad reputation for dirty rushing (deserved), being snobs, and bad-mouthing the other chapters. How do you rank something like that?

Yeah, I'm not sure quite why they did that. It was a big sis's present to her lil sis. What's funny is that the same sorority takes their pledges on a retreat and has them make up skits making fun of all of the rest of the sororities.
The thing about USC, though, is that because it's so big and has so many different fraternities, there is a really big grey area as far as which is the best (we have 15 fraternities officially, and two others that are in limbo). I mean, you have stereotypes, such as KA's are the southern boys, Sigma Nu's are the preppy boys, Sig Eps the more rough, but still good-looking boys, ATO's the dark, preppy boys... I don't know, I could go through all of them, but you get the point. Everyone has preferences, but everyone's different. My roommate's dating a Pi Kapp, so she thinks that they're the best fraternity, but two girls on our hall are obsessed with TKE's, and I usually hang out at a bar where a lot of Sigma Chi's hang out. I mean, someone from USC may disagree, but I've tried many times to figure out what the "ranking" of USC's fraternities are, and I still can't, for the life of me, figure it out. And even as far as sororities are viewed, every person will rank them differently. It's kind of nice that way, though. It's the whole, "we're all greek together" thing.

This thread reminds me of "Name the top 3 sororities on your campus". I am convinced that people who obsess with this kind of stuff (I mean taking it farther than a curious look/discard type of mentality) are unsure of themselves and need the props of an organization-car-street address-logo to give themselves credibility. The sad, sad truth is, you can be a member of the most "prestigious" organization in the world, but if you were a jerk before you joined, most likely you wll be a jerk AFTER you join.
Most people can recognize this.

Kappa Sig has recetly returned to campus at LSU. Their numbers aren't as high as some, but not as low as others yet, they have the VP of the student body in their organization as well as numerous young men who strive to hold leadership positions on campus. Two fraternities have a reputation for mixing predomnately, but not exclusively, with 2 sororities, yet the other fraternities prefer to mix with some of the OTHER sororities because they feel more comfortable and think the girls are a lot more fun to be with. The ONLY absolute one can garner from this question is "Who's the BIGGEST". There is NO LITMUS TEST that absolutely defines THE best GLO (IMO). If you use the concept of a chain being as strong as it's weakest link, it's easy to see EVERY GLO has a link that could be considered weak. Even within the individual chapters some person or clique can waver from the "standards" and weaken the whole.

Sheer numbers are not important unless quantity has surpassed the importance of quality.
Power and money??? Take a look at the stock market and tell me that it hasn't devastated lives and turned prominant people into paupers.

Anyone who would SERIOUSLY use these concepts to choose or rank an organization, is far too contriving for me and appears to need validation in their lives.
End of rant! :)

rankings
 

momma--Heller undertook his rankings on a grandiose scale;
obviously some folks would disagree with him, but in the overall
picture a desired profile emerged.
Sometimes in order to move ahead you must generalize and continue to refine. Without it, you'd go nowhere.
So, in defense of Heller, he did just this and filled a need.
You have read the will and taken the class picture, but otherwise done nothing but gripe and stood still.
There is room for you, too. Help the Kappa Sigs...

Bravo Erik Conard!
 

Thanks for explaining the usefulness of rankings. Most fraternity/sorority members don't care about such things, but they are very useful to those members who structure the rush program and market the name. "Justamom" makes the mistake most people make when they hear about rankings. If all the greek outfits on a given campus are about the same size and operate at the same level, then there's not much to distinguish them one from another. However, most fraternity systems have an established heirarchy. Some chapters are consistently strong, while others never seem to get off the ground. If you outline the characteristics of the consistently strong, and compare them to the characteristics of the consistently weak, a solid picture emrges of how to create a chapter that will be immediately defined as a winner.
It's interesting that "Justamom" refers to Kappa Sigma at LSU. Heller's Survey reported that over the life of their chapter, Kappa Sigma was probably the all-time leader at LSU. Good genes count. If they have good leadership, Kappa Sigma has a great chance to return quickly to the status they used to enjoy. They have a great house, and a prestige reputation that resonates among the families who send their kids to Baton Rouge.
Unless a particular school makes an effort to make everyone the same, there will always be chapters whose ambitions rise above the others. People miss the point. Just because a fraternity is "more powerful, prominent and presitgeous" does NOT mean that all its members are superior to all members of other fraternities. It just means that the organization itself has a solid name built on performance, and as a consequence they have a much better chance of getting who they want.
It's wrong to think that a good fraternity chooses between quantity and quality. On a campus with large chapters, there's no such thing a a small fraternity that's perceived as competitive.

Re: Bravo Erik Conard!
 

You have responded with a succinct yet thorough analysis of what Heller was trying to do. He fought for the underdog to rise
to prominence. He gloated "I told you so" when one slipped and
another did not. Naw, nobody could have put it better than you
did. Wilson would say "Thanks, pal."

I beleive that rankings also serve to drive others to be better. Would you think it was wrong for LL baseball teams to not be ranked, i.e. first, scond, third, etc? If one wanted to be a better chapter, i.e. higher ranked, in serving brotherhood/ sisterhood why not compare yourself to others to how well you are doing? If your chapter was last among others in GPA don't you think it would be a good motivation to work on the acedemic side of life? Competition is a healthy when it serves a purpose.

Would you think it was wrong for LL baseball teams to not be ranked, i.e. first, scond, third, etc?

Don't EVEN get me started on this topic. Coming from an area with one of the THE most "successful" LL programs in the US, you can be assured I have very strong opinions on this subject. LOL!

All points made are well taken and are of some consequence in the larger scheme of things. However, with all due respect to Mr. Heller, and the opinions posted,I have seen the unhappiness that results from those who allow rankings to influence their lives or are motivated by said labels. I also have seen giant corporations falter when newer (better mouse traps) nips at their heels. I love the old adage when you're number two, you try harder. Of course this implies a rank of some sort.

It's just that quite honestly, it doesn't seem to be of any real benefit to anyone other than those who refer to it as a "credential". If there was a benefit, wouldn't those that, upon publication, were ranked 3 and 4 or 5 and 6 have MOVED up or down on the list? Perhaps it has and I a unaware.

It feels more like comparing religious organizations. Well, the Catholic Church has a ton of land, INTERNATIONAL connections and there are a ZILLIONS of us( NO BIRTH CONTROL!) ...lots of little chapters all around the world. But around here, those Baptists give us a real run for our money. Sure are getting a lot of new recruits... I know this is a simplificaton and I hope you see the jest. I just happen to be one of those peope that believe a business model is great on paper, but a successful company is not necessarily judged by it's size, rather it's product. I hope you would agree that the Greek system as a whole produces a very good product in a market environment that is challenging.

bullpuckey
 

I am sure you will do well in the teachers' lounge, but out here
we don't seem to grasp what you are trying to say.

It is not about the Rank you are
 

It is about your continouiong struggle to get there. If you work on your product (your chapter) and continually improve upon it, eventually you will be number one. Of course people should not just worry about the number they are, that is just a side effect of what they are doing.