Groove Phi Groove
 

I am a member of Groove Phi Groove and if you have questions about my brotherhood feel free to ask. ONE

I have a question
 

what is Groove Phi Groove?

what are your goals?
what's your mission?
what's the requirements for your fraternity?
Are you fraternity based if so what campus or campuses are you all located on.

I personally haven't heard of Groove Phi Groove but i would like to know more if you don't mind me asking...

Groove Phi Groove
 

My brotherhood is a collegiate based organization founded at Morgan State University on Oct. 12, 1962.
Our goals are the unpliftment of the black man, the black families and the black community.
We have aproximatley 35-40,000 members and over 150 affiliate graduate adn undergraduate chapters from Boston to Los Angeles.
We don't call ourselves a fraternity because the origin of the word fraternal brotherhood meant they had sex with eachother but we call ourselves a social fellowship, because fellowship is the christain name from brotherhood and we call it a social fellowship because we share our brotherhood with everyone.
Finally my organization is not a greek lettered brotherhood cause greek letters were stolen from African People.
Our Phi is Khametic which symbolizes "The fire of Life" or the creative function of the male sperm. We take that to symbolize our abilities to grow as men and brothers.
The word Groove has two meanings. You can be in the Groove and handle your business and you can be in the Groove and have fun.
We believe that if you are having fun and taking care of business at all times then have that ability to grow as a man and as a brother you have what it takes to be a complete man.

http://www.gphig.org

I know it was kinda long but if you have any more questions hit me on Blackplanet.
http://members.blackplanet.com/fulltimegroove

Re: Groove Phi Groove
 

Can you provide some documentation of this?

I'd also like some documentation, since you're wrong on at least two points. Some of your statements are, frankly, pseudo-anthropological nonsense, though I can easily imagine where you acquired them. Reading your note gave me the same sort of horror an astronomer must feel on meeting an astrologist.

First, as someone whose spent many years studying ancient languages and civilizations, I can say that Greek letters were definitely not "stolen" from any African peoples. The Greek alphabet is an adaptation of the Phoenician alphabet (the Phoenicians were the ancient people of Lebanon), from which the Hebrew alphabet was also derived. The Phoenician alphabet was developed from the Egyptian hierogylphic system of the Middle Kingdom, which either developed from or co-developed with (depending on which theory you believe) the cuneiform writing of Sumeria. The Egyptians were not Africans- they were Semites, the same linguistic/cultural group that produced modern Jews, Arabs, and Berbers. Their language is not related to any Bantu or non-Bantu language.

I don't know of any writing forms from the ancient sub-Saharan Africans, although I believe one developed in the Sagel region of the Western Sahara, I'd have to look it up. Cultural transmission is not theft- I won't even bother debating that, it's such a silly idea. And if we assume that it is, then the Greeks "stole" their alphabet from the ancestors of modern Arabs, who had busied themselves "stealing" it from each other for a couple millenia.

I also object to your statement that members of Greek fraternities had sex with each other. First, the idea that ancient Greek men were promisicuous homosexuals- and that that fact is either humourous or disgusting- is evidence of a lingering homophobia in our culture. The ancient Greeks did engage in homosexual relations, on about the same level modern Americans do, and were more tolerant of it. It was perfectly acceptable to them for two male best friends to have sex. Another persistent idea is that they had sex with young boys. They did have sex with what we would consider young boys- 12 and 13 year olds. But in the ancient world, it was not uncommon for a 13 year old to be married or at least betrothed- ancient adulthood began at 13, so in their view, this was sex between consenting adults. They were just as horrified at sex with 'children' as we are- they just defined the term differently.

Second, fraternities as they existed in ancient Greece were not fraternities as they exist in modern America. They were groups of men usually gathered around a charismatic leader for a common goal, usually learning- like the Academy in Athens. Their members probably did have sex with each other, but that was normal for their culture, as I've said.

Third, American fraternities were founded as literary societies, modeled on the salons of Enlightenment France. Many did not originally have Greek letter names. Greek letter names originally came from the habit of adopting mottos in Greek or Latin, and then using the first letters of the words of the motto as a name. This was part of a general fashion in early America to imitate the Greek and Roman civilizations. The word fraternity did not in English originally mean brotherhood- it meant something closer to our modern word comradery, which is why women's groups as well as men's were called fraternities.

I am sorry to go on at such length, but what you've said is ignorant nonsense of the sort that cannot be allowed to go unanswered. You are being fed theories that have been discredited many times by reputable researchers.

Bravo for a well informed and well written response!

TG

History from their website:

Groove Phi Groove Social Fellowship Incorporated was founded at Morgan State College on October 12, 1962. The purpose of the Fellowship is to promote academic awareness, good ethical standards and unity among college and graduate men, to create intelligent and effective leadership, and to study and help alleviate social and economic problems concerning society in order to improve the status of mankind.

What do the letters mean?

The "G" (Groove not Gamma)
During the 1960's, the word "groove" was popular among young Blacks. Websters dictionary defines the verb groove as "to perform deftly or smoothly." As a noun, groove is defined as "a fixed routine in the affairs of life." Hence to go "against the groove" means to work in opposition to the current establishment. Finally, "Groovin'" was also associated with "socializing" or "fellowshipping". All three of these descriptions combine to form the basic essence of our Social Fellowship.

The "Phi"
In Secrets of the Great Egyptians, Peter Thompkins tells us that the Khemit people of Africa (Ancient Egyptians) originated "Phi" as a symbol of the creative function of the male reproductive system and more loosely as "reproduction in endless series". It was a symbolic representation of "the fire of life". This symbol of fertility was adopted in our name to stand for our continual growth and development. Our Phi should in no way be confused with the greek symbol Phi, which takes on the same look but a totally different meaning.

Keeping in step with the reawakening of what has been termed, Black Consciousness, our 14 founders incorporated the prominent cultural and nationalistic ideologies and creeds of the Black Power Movement into an organization that was envisioned and is manifested as a positive alternative to the current fraternal establishment and not an antagonistic organization to the established Black fraternal system or as another Black fraternity without Greek nomenclature

At present, the Fellowship has more than 30,000 members, and more than 150 affiliate graduate and undergraduate chapters throughout the United States. The membership includes a wide-range of backgrounds and occupations, including but not limited to, accounting, engineering, government, medicine, law, information technology, business entrepreneurs, professional athletes, education, skilled crafts, human resources, real estate, protective services, clergy, and the armed forces.

The Fellowship's governing structure center's around the National Conclave, which convenes annually to review and approve major business. Between Conclaves the Executive Board of Directors ensures that major business is properly executed through the Fellowship's administrative officers known as the Directorate Staff. The Fellowship's overall structure is ranked-ordered as follows:
The Conclave
The Executive Board of Directors
The Directorate Staff
Regional Offices
Chapters
Individual Members

Groove Phi Groove Social Fellowship, Inc.,
G PHI G, and The Groove Fund, Inc. are registered with the United States Internal Revenue Service as a 501(c)(7) and 501(c)(3) tax exempt entities, respectively, while both have articles of incorporation on file with The State of New Jersey. In addition, the Fellowship's name, letters and emblem are registered with the United States Patent & Trademark Office.

"Through Loyalty & Integrity We Shall Achieve Greatness."


To ONEPLUS69is70:

A lot of what you have said can be considered "pseudo-anthropological nonsense", depending on who you ask. I can find information from other historians and scholars that is exactly contradictory to what you're saying. No to be mean or anything, but he was just telling history about his organization. Isn't that what this thread is about? :o

The combined work of actual anthropologists over decades cannot be dismissed as ignorant nonsense- and copying their web page hardly consistutes an academic refutation of my statements. The fact that Peter Thompkins is mentioned removes any kind of credibility from the paragraph- the word pseudo-anthropology hardly does the man justice, he's a crank. He belongs in the same category as people who write about the secrets of Atlantis and Lemuria- although he's probably worse than those people, since he wrote falsities about ancient Egypt, a place that actually existed. The fact that anyone would base anything besides a bad sci-fi novel on anything he wrote scares me. Want proof? Take any of his books to an actual Egyptologist, and listen to the hooting laughter. He didn't restrict his writing to just ancient history, either- I particularly enjoy his crackpot theories about plant telepathy, though you'll find he also wrote about the Mayan pyramids, various ancient obelisks, and other favorites of occultist authors. He and Edward Cayce would have gotten along great.

I'm sure Groove Phi Groove is a fine organization, with wonderful members, but its founders obviously didn't believe in careful fact checking. The fact that they prosper despite the invalidity of their founding ideas is either a testiment to the strength of their organization or a demonstration on the irrelevance of a fraternity's founding principles, I'd rather not consider which.

Calm down dear :rolleyes:

I was not trying to refute your stement, but rather POST their history for those that don't know anything about them. If you're looking for an argument, please do a search. I believe there is a thread on GC alread about this topic. Post there..............

As I said before, this thread is about G Phi G

I Have A Question For Cardiac
 

about Groove Phi Groove. It's obvious that your fraternity was founded on ideals similar to the ones espoused by the fraternities and sororities we're more familiar with. I was surprised to hear that G-Phi-G is almost fifty years old and has a large number of chapters and an active alumni base. Congratulations on your deserved success and prosperity.
Here's my question: What is the practical relationship between G-Phi-G and the other Black Greek organizations? I have friends who are Kappas, Alphas and Omega Psi Phi, and while they may be well aware of G-Phi-G I have never heard them mention it. I have a 1977 copy of Baird's Manual which lists Groove Phi Groove as a "service" fraternity at Morgan State along with Alpha Phi Omega and Iota Phi Theta. An asterisk in Barid's indicates that G-Phi-G is a local organization, which suggests that at least until 1977 G-Phi-G had not yet expanded to become national. Does G-Phi-G function within the Black fraternity system (ie. play sports, have parties, do philanthropy), or does G-Phi-G maintain a separation, or distance from the other more traditional Black Greeks? Also, since G-Phi-G was founded for the elevation of young Black men, do you have any white members?
Thanks. Groove Phi Groove is an interesting and certainly unique concept, and one that has obviously found success.

WOW!
 

Great reading from you both! There is a lot of info that I was clearly not aware of!

As we all know, there are Organizations that pop up from time to time that have one thing in interest, other peoples money!

If they do good for the people, I wish them the very best!

I have always said if you want an answer to something, GC is the best place to come!

We have some of the brightest and smartest people in the world!

We may not always get along, but that is being a family:)

My two points
 

If you doubt the truth of my statements I suggest you read "Secrets of the Great Pyramids" and "Stolen LEgacy". I don't claim to know the whole story about anything and I too am a major in African Studies at My school and I can state from Fact not speculation. Also While it pertains to "Greeks" much of their Architecture, mathematics and literature were stolen from a much more ancient african civilization. If you date the Pyramids and the Sphnix (A greek word) any archeologists will tell you they date as far back as 5000 bc at least some of the artifacts and some even older. They definitely predate the Romans, Greeks and Pheonecians by centuries. Africa is the Motherland and even though there is evidence that say that the human existence evolved in both Africa and SOuth East Asia around the same time, the fact is the majority of accomplishments that we credit Europeans with were founded in Africa. Think the Pyramid is a triangle so how did Pythagorus create his theorum.

Also if you have had any studies on European history the fact that Greeks practiced Homosexual behaviors in Public Bath houses also true. Read a Book.

To move on Yes we do have members of other racial and ethnic backgrounds. My lb is Italian and I have met a couple white and plenty of spanish brothers.

Also we have never sought to completley seperated ourselves form the "Black Greek lettered Organizations" completely because we beleive all black men and women are vital to the success of the black communities and we do different activities with the members of the "Noble Nine" organizations on many school campuses. We step becuase it is of African Origin and we party cause we want to have fun too.

I just want to say thanks to the positive replies I have recieved since I started this forum and anyone who wants to discuss and ideas or just inquiry about Groove feel free to keep on writing.

Oh yeah
 

I know that age has always been relevant to the time period you lived in and the fact that I said that Fraternal brotherhood meant they had sex with eachother is what it was meant by.

I guess you would also ignore the fact that Greeks also veiwed women as only good for procreation and that they didn't believe that the only true love was between to men.

We can also talk about how for thousands of years in their culture women could not be seen alone outside of their homes or they'd be considered out of place. They were treated the way that Women are being treated now in some middle eastern countries. Be it culture, practice or religion fact is fact.


One Book has never told the whole story, Religious scholars will tell you that unless you read The Bible, the Torah and the Quron you can't fully appreciate the whole picture.

Good words. I myself am very pissed off how the entire world STOLE from Africa. What were they thinking? Ignorance is only bliss to the ones who are ignorant, to the rest of us they are a pain in the ass.

Ok, Maybe I am just nieve, but why is it that historically black groups feel only other blacks can help black communities??? I have never meet a white AKA....just wondering.

Why not just help human communities...does the rest really matter all that much!!??

I am also not fond of the word "stole" I dont believe any one "stole" anything. The world evolves and culture and language are not execptions.

Looking at continents yes, Egyptians were African but as stated earlier the people themselves were not, they were Semenites. There is a difference....

If you don't consider your group a fraternity or "greek", why feel the need to post on a fraternity/sorority forum or start a thread at all??

Stolen
 

First the word stole is completley justified when you look at the context in which it is used. All the accomplishments, History and greatness that this country accomplished were taken from them and to this day are credited to another, so I know stole is accurate. Like I tell everyone who ever asks me, Books always tell one side of the story and that's always the side of the victor. There will NEVER be a time where everyone will be willing to accept where the true spiritual and scolastical evolution of man started and that was in africa and Middle Eastern Europe.

Also I created this Thread becuase I saw a post inquiring what Groove PHi Groove was and that's why the first post is so short and is only asking anone who has question to ask me and I will enlighten them. This is my organization and I feel totally justifed in speaking about it where ever a question arises. If you don't think it's appropriate, tough don't read or write here.

Also the reason why Black Orgs feel that it is up to them to help the black communities because If they don't NO ONE will. THe NAACP abolished Jim Crow, Groups like the Black Panthers anf the groups Lead by people like Martin Luther King, Malcom X and other black men and women help minimize segregation, Fact is that is always Black People fighting for what they want that allows them to attain it.

Don't get me wrong I welcome the interaction but I think some of you mind as well keep your mindless comments to yourselves. Think before you type.

so what do you have to say about sororities? my sorority is actually formally called a fraternity....any more insight into this?

What about Abraham Lincoln?
What about all of the white people who protected slaves thru the underground railroad?
In the civil rights movement there were whites AND blacks trying to end the horrible treatment of people. My grandparrents were some of them.
I live in a mostly minority populated neighborhood. I have many friends who are african american, asian american, hispanic, jewish, Arabic, pagan, muslem, chirstian, and many other diverse groups. I, myself, am 1/4 native american 1/4 jewish and the rest mixed american mutt. I am, by definition, a minority myself.

And now some wisdom from my grandmother -
One man may start a change, but it takes many men to make it hapen.

TG

WHite People
 

I know White PEople helped with the underground railroad and I know White PEople marched with Martim Luther King but you know and I know they did not start either cause. Black People who ran, ran and encouraged others to run, Black People who were tired of riding in the back of busess and sitting outside of resturants to eat fought spoke up to abolish segreagtion.

And about Abraham Lincoln, His cause was not the liberation of slaves, his cause was to hold the New World together because The south sought to recognize themselves as a new country outside of what is now the United States. The abolishment of slavery was a fortunate outcome of the war that sought to hold America together. And still there were slaves for a time afterwards.

Fact of the matter is synascism is not going to make your points any better, fact will.

And about the sororites,what is it that you want me to say. I know the first female sorority started out by calling them selves a fraternity. You gave me an ambiguous question.

I just meant you have so much insight into fraternities, white and non-white alike...I was just curious what your opinion is of sororities

Re: Stolen
 

Who did Gutenburg steal the printing press from?

Sororities
 

I don't want anyone to think I have a negative opionion of Fraternities or sororites. I think that any oraganzation who is trying to better society is good. I am quick to rattle the cage on organizations who don't.

If you go to my school Montclair STate University I will say 80% of the on campus population knows me and generally likes me. There is that other 20% though, I tell people how it is, I don't pull punches and there was a time when at a Greek Council meeting I pulled some sororities and fraternities cards.

I will not name the 3 sororities or the two fraternities but I will say that I told them that all they were good for was getting drunk and aving sex with eachother. (I used much harsher words) I do want yall to know i didn't say that out of anger or to hurt anyone. They questioned why I would not give them my vote for them to retain charter on campus. The school mandates we do a certain amount of community services a year to maintain recognized by the campus and in their cases they fell far short. One of them actually did no community services in their 13 year existence on my campus and they were founded there.

I realize some fraternities were not founded for service and are strictly social clubs but knowing this don't get upset when I recognize them as soley that.

Le t me cut to the point. If you about something, I'll ride with you. If you ain'tm you making that trip alone.

The printing press
 

What does that got to do with anything we are discussing here. If you are trying to make a point I think it is too under stated.

All I know is some idiot fortunate enough to possess a photographic memory saw the blue prints to the printing press and came to america with a patent. If you are talking about the origin of the printing press, I have to tell you i'm stumped. Enlighten me.

Re: The printing press
 

My point was simply in reference to this:

Here, I assume 'them' refers to African civilizations. You have made this point extensible to all learning and innovation . . . basically you're stating that all human advancement was predicated on stealing something from African societies.

So, since America adopted the printing press as the basis for literary (and therefore intellectual) advancement and promotion via mass-production of literature, who did Gutenburg steal it from?

Unless it was an African culture that was mass-producing books centuries before, it seems we've found a hole in the theory (however minor), b/c credit appears to be given to whom it is due.

Personally, I think the revelation that Egyptian culture was Semite (although existing on the African continent) should have been enough to make you re-think your theory . . . but what do I know?

On the topic of Groove Phi Groove, I will say that I was somewhat more enlightened by the posting of history.

What I still do not understand is this:

If your organization is so bent on seperating itself from being a "fraternity" or a "Greek-lettered" organization, then why have you adopted so many characterisitics of BGLO's? Line numbers? Line brothers? LINES?

It just seems to me that your org's entire premise was modeled after that of most BGLO's and then you turn around and talk about other cultures "stealing". Could it be said that you guys "stole" from BGLO's? I agree that much is derived from African culture, and yes, alot of it was stolen. However, to separate yourselves from Greek orgs/ fraternities, all the while, modeling yourselves after them, sounds kinda like the same thing to me...:confused:

Cardiac,
DO you typically run into people like some of those that post on this board, that have a problem with the fact that your organization focuses on the betterment of the African American community?


Thanks for the enlightment and for staying positive ! :)

I don't think he claims to be the guru on anything. he is just stating the rationale behind his organization.

Honey Kiss, I am not sure whether to take umbridge to this or not!?

Not all people get a long, hell we know that!

There is a group in Kansas City Kansas that are Musilums of the Afro American persuasion and have a done a great job of promoting the Religion and Race buy opening Businesses to help the young Black Americans to learn the ways of business and putting then to work to learn!
I Salute them.


We do what we can and I do not like it when someone tells me that I do not! No reference to the group on this site!

We are trying to do more than a lot of people, but we cannot do it now or over night!

What about the Gays on site ? Are they Bad because they are different?

Well I may catch hell but you know me, I do what I can!

HK, we need to do a KC thing in the Fall when you are around!

Not that your comments were directed towards me, but I don't know that the folks from this thread have a problem with gphig bettering the black community. Most posts have problems with the history that the org is resting on and the supposed separation from greekdom.

Tom Earp, oddly, a lot of your posts have been making sense to me lately, lol. Perhaps a sign of too much time on GC?? ;) :D

Hey!

Unfortunately, someone did post earlier about why does HBGLO's focus on just the AA community and not the "human" community. I wanted to hear his take on it since I have heard that statement before elsewhere.

I really don't want to get into the discussion that seems to be going on here, but I did have a question. I've heard of Swing Phi Swing. I believe they are a female oriented organization (correct me if I'm wrong). I was wondering what their affiliation to your organization is, and if anyone could inform us of them as well. I do however want to state how brilliant greeks really are. I've been sitting back and reading these entries, and although there seems to be contradicting opinions, the vast amount of knowledge is abounding and really displays how truly accomplished those in greek lettered organizations trule are!

Re: Re: Stolen
 

That’s the funniest thing I have read all day I think I am going to go watch Krush Groove now.

not seeing how this pertaining to G Phi G
 

Ok I am not seeing how this is related to Groove Phi Groove or the topic at hand, but I felt compelled to respond. Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated has members of many nationalities, religions and races. We are an international public service organization of 150,000 women in more than 900 chapters in the United States, West African, the Bahamas, the Virgin Islands, Germany, Bermuda, Korea, England and Japan. Because you yourself have never seen a white member just means that you have not seen much. Or at least, as much as I have. I have numerious White, Asian, Indian, Latino and Black sorors that span across the globe. The most famous white member of Alpha Kappa Alpha is Elenor Roosevelt. If you have never heard of this woman I do apologize. If I were you, I would leave it up to members of Historically Black groups to speak on issues concerning Historically Black groups. We have never issued a statement that says "only other blacks can help black communities" so I am not sure where you got that information from. To agree with you, yes, maybe you are just nieve. I hope I have enlightened a few readers. Now, back to the topic at hand.

Responses
 

I do often get responses from individuals who are intimidated by my brotherhood everyday. I just flick them haters off.

But anyway the org Swing Phi Swing is my sister org. Their name stands for Sisters With Interest Never Gone Promoting Higher Intelligence Supporting Women in Need of Growth.

ANyway as far as Having lines and such, First of all BGLO stole that from the white Greeks who stole that from the Masons. Except for small differences, so don't pretend that yall invented that.

Also as far as the printing press is concerned it is quite possible that the press was created in Africa or they were the first to have such machines because they did print books. And remmeber Aristole is credited for writing over 10,000 books when any scholar will tell you that it is IMPOSSIBLE for one man to write so much text. Where did he get it from? African Libraries when the Greeks invaded.

But anyway as far as stealing anything from anyone, I can say for a fact that there is nothing that is done by any of the BGLO's that was started by them, except maybe actually remembering their founders. PRove me wrong.

Re: Responses
 

It is quite possible that a lot of things were created in a lot of places. Many of these things can be proven, many of these things can not. You claim fact this, and fact that, but I view many of your arguments as more of theory than anything else.

I do agree however that many things in our modern lives were taken from or formed from things that began in Africa, one main one that stick out in my mind is Music. If you take a course in something like American Popular Music or something, they will trace the roots of some modern day music back to the early times of the slave trade=many forms of modern day music are derived from African musical tradition.

If you are arguing with fact, please, point us to readings, journals, logs, statistical data, findings, studies, something. Give us some links, some book titles, something, if not, then some of your arguments are theory, and not of fact.

As for your organization not being the same as a fraternity, it is stunning to see that your org has the makeup of many other greek letter orgs, including BGLOS, WGLOS, MCGLOS. Stolen values, beliefs, traditions, etc, or not, how can an org be different from such other orgs while holding many things in common with them, along with mason groups?

As for now, I will view you as a modern Sophist.

A community
 

The fact that as a black organization we tend to focus on black communities is mostly because they are typically where we are from and have the problems we would like solved most. No one would ever be upset if a White sorority did something for less fortunate white neighborhoods. My chapter actually tried to do a community service at a Nutley High school where the black population is less then 5% and they shut us down cause they told us they "didn't want to be bothered". However I have never been shut out for tryin to mentor at any black school in Newark where I am from.

Also if you want to talk about us reachin out past the black Neighborhoods, my chapter does a walk for autism in East Windsor Nj. every year and that is an area that is 99% caucasian. Why do we do it cause it is a cause that affects every nationality and we are doing it again this Sept.

Honestly I have seen other black orgs do services in white communities. The sigmas did a Nursing Home program a little while back in Cauldwell Nj. But i will say I have never seen a white fraternity or sorority do anything in Newark they weren't gettin paid for.

Suggested readings
 

I pointed out 2 books earlier if you read my post. If you want me to point out and name every book I have read or articles I have seen that is impossible cause I honestly don't remember. But if you generally would like to know more than what people teach and tell you then go to the library yourself. Or maybe you just want to have something to say.

I can tell you where i have gained some of my knowledge from: Classes. History of Ancient Civilizations, the African Influece, Ancient Greece, Mythology, Urban Anthropology, Cultural Anthrology, African American Culture (remarkably only a 1 credit course and only half a sememster long, a travisty).......I have also read almost every article that I had the oppurtunity to see that had something to do with African American Life and Africa. (that is one of my major) Criminology, The Middle east Tradition. ( a 400 level course no longer offered because lack of interest)

You know what instead of continuing to telling you what I know and what I have studied why don't you just do the research for yourself. The Library of Congress and MIt database both have pretty extensive online libraries on almost any topic you would like to research. Why don't you do that.

Re: Suggested readings
 

I know of extensive research methods and I have taken a few courses in similarity that you have taken. So you state that you have mentioned two books, that's great. What I am implying is that in almost everyone of your posts I've read "fact this, fact that" or "prove me wrong." If you want your argument to be more believable, simply state how you came to your conclusions and how you found your facts? If you can't do that, it's theory, until you prove it, there is nothing to prove you wrong about there, any scholar would know that, any scholar would cite something that was used as a fact or data in an agrument, just like in any other college level class, agreed? :)

As for me having something to say, if you have the ability to say something, for the sake of argument, I have the same ability, agreed yet again? It seems as though you would be the one with more to say, considering you started this thread to inform some of us about your organization (which I applaud in so many ways) yet, you also state that you aren't like a GLO, but your org holds many similarities with other GLOs. If these similarities are stolen or not, how do you differentiate if you are "using" some of these similarities?

Stolen or not, your org holds some of the similarities that are used by many other glos, masons, and service orgs as well. To me, that would put your org in the same category.

Re: Responses
 

Ooooohhhh - I get it . . . jeez, why didn't I just ask any old scholar? They would have pointed me to that 5,000 year old press, still stored in Kurtz's hut I assume.