Hazing in the band room
 

If this was a fraternity pix, would it be bye-bye charter?
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Wednesday, June 19, 2002

Texas A&M hazing incident under investigation

COLLEGE STATION, Texas (AP) - Texas A&M University police are investigating about a dozen photos found at the yearbook office which show students, believed to be members of the Aggie Band, naked, gagged and bound with duct tape.

Director of the University Police Department, Bob Wiatt, said his office opened an investigation Monday after the pictures were discovered on a computer at the yearbook's campus office last week.

"There are about a dozen pictures and it would certainly appear to be hazing," Wiatt told The Associated Press on Tuesday.

Wiatt said it is believed the pictures were taken in April, but the police department hasn't received any complaints from students believed to be involved. He said the pictures are of a number of different individuals the department is trying to identify and contact. Many students have left campus for the summer, he said.

The police department will turn its findings over to the Brazos County Attorney's Office, which will determine if charges should be filed, Wiatt said.

The Bryan-College Station Eagle reported Tuesday that Tamara Adams, the yearbook's editor, found the photos, which had been scanned electronically and saved onto a computer in the office. She notified the head of the university's journalism department who turned the photos over to a university administrator, according to the university's student run newspaper, The Battalion.

The university will await the findings of the police investigation before proceeding with its own inquiry and considering any disciplinary action.

"It's disappointing," J. Malon Southerland, vice president for student affairs, told the Eagle. "The photos were relatively explicit, so it was clear it should involve a University Police investigation."

University rules and state law prohibit hazing. Southerland said hazing will not be tolerated at the university, which had 44,618 students last year.

I'd have to think that if a greek house would have been involved there would be a bigger incident. At the very minimum the chapter would be suspended for some period of time...with the chance of losing their charter a very real one. At a smaller school I'm sure there would be people yelling to shut down the entire greek system. Just another example of how we greeks are unfairly singled out.

Hoosier,

Thanks again for bringing us more information proving that it is not JUST the greek system that hazes.

Hell.. the A&M Band though... Somehow that doesn't surprise me.

There is absolutely a double standard out there! We have whole offices and university officials whos soul purpose in life is to make sure we don't break the rules! Where are they when the band or football team are doing these things?! Staking out a fraternity party most likely.

You hit the nail on the head with that comment, ktsnake.

.
 

No surprise. I bet they won't even get punished and there won't be any organizational sanctions. If this was a fraternity they would probably lose their charter for about 4 years.

And one time in band camp.

Sorry, I had to say it, the dark side forced me to do it. :D

Frankly, I think one of the reasons band organizations aren't "singled out" as much as GLO's is because they aren't always viewed as a social organization. Everyone just kind of leaves them alone because they're "band nerds" and incidences can go by unnoticed. Greek organizations are extremely visible, and any little thing that goes wrong is instantly known about. Some bands don't hold parties and events that get them noticed quite in the same way. I assure you, though. If hazing in the band program at my school was discovered, the people who did it would be either cut from the group, their scholarship taken away, or some other punitive action would be taken. Just because you don't hear about what happened to the band after the hazing incident doesn't mean that action wasn't taken.

Where I attend school, the band is notorious for crazy parties and even crazier hazing antics! At first, I didn't think it was true, but I then saw it firsthand...I attended a "band party" after a home football game and I have to say that it was wilder than any fraternity party I had been to! EVERYONE was drinking...no lie. And, they didn't even try to hide it (at least some people at fraternity parties drink from a cup). Then, towards the end of the party, the "new members" streaked naked across the dance floor! People were in dark corners being "cozy" and a couple of guys tried to lift up my skirt. It was pretty insane! And we all know that if the same antics were present at a fraternity party, they would be suspended so fast their heads would spin! I think there is a BIG double standard when it comes to greeks and other campus orgainzations. Don't even get me started on the Rugby teams!

Blaire

So proud to be a DELTA ZEE!

No matter the letter, greeks do it better!

Coming from the ultimate "band nerd" -

Okay, I know greeks get in the most trouble for parties, hazing etc... and that other orgs do the same thing- ie band, sports teams....

But I do not like it when we are reffered to as "band nerds" or people think all we do is sit around and play music all day- and we dont know how to party/have fun

#1- Ive been an active member of the band since I was in 4th grade, and before that, an active member of the orchestra 1-4. Ive been a playing member- trombone and in the auxillary- dance team, colorgaurd

#2- were sick of the "this one time, at band camp" thing. Its still kinda funny when WE do it, but c'mon now.

#3- Some of the people I know that drink the most, are NOT greek- they are in the band.

#4- We do have kickass parties... ahhh the memories

#5- 70% of my Phi Sig chapter was recruited through the band- an untapped resource for PNMs!

#6- We have greek orgs of our own- Tau Beta Sigma :) and Kappa Kappa Psi

#7- We DO get in trouble for our actions. We get in trouble with our Director of Bands, but usually his line is "If you get arrested, dont call me at 2am for bail". If TBS, KKY, SAI or PhiMA were caught hazing, they would be out- Especially TBS and KKY since we are ONLY for members of the band.

So just like you dont like people saying things about your org, or greeks in general, dont make generalizations about the band. Or I get pissy- then again, maybe its cos I have to work soon..... who knows!

OK, I was trying to bite my tounge on this one but here goes.....


With the Aggie Band, you've got to remember that they're a special unit of our Corps of Cadets, B-Battery. While the Band members are kind of the "nerds" of the Corps, the Band generally gets great respect. They're a precision-marching MILITARY band, not the traditional funny, feathered-hat wearing, goofy theme song playing university band. If you've ever seen the Aggie Band march, then you know what I mean. They're AMAZING! The Corps is commonly referred to by non-regs as "the biggest fraternity on campus", or "the 2000 member frat". Yes, the Corps has plenty of hazing issues that officials (inside & out) have been trying to get a handle on for a good number of years now. What most people don't understand is that the reason this has gone on for so long has everything to do with the way that the Corps works (we call it Old Army, but it's really a perfect example of the "good ol' boy" system)and the way the University has traditionally functioned. As a formerly all-male military institution (only accepted women after 1973 and sororities recieved University recognition in 1990) , this university has a LONG history of Corps activity that under today's standards are counted as hazing. Most hazing activities have been incidents of requiring "fish" (Corps freshmen) to do excessive amounts of exercise such as "class sets"(year you graduate) of pushups, really long marches etc. This band incident is WAY out of line and unfortunately follows a few other band-related hazing incidents that I can assure you will NOT be tolerated. The University & Corps have been trying valiantly to work on all of this and has made great strides. A&M is an ULTRA-conservative place--a wierd little bubble of confused conservativism where "from the outside looking in, you can't understand it, from the inside looking out you can't explain it". This isn't always the greatest motto. (personally, I can't stand the way things work here)
Students here are VERY aware of the problems within the Corps and elsewhere. And believe me that the "If this had been a fraternity..." argument has been brought up by more than one outraged student & alum. The thing is, it's NOT a fraternity & I hesitate to endorse any kind of comparison between the two. The fact is, that when a GLO has their charter pulled, it's by THEIR OWN national org. In fact, the fraternities that have been disbanded on this campus have either folded because they lost numbers, or lost university recognition & their nationals then pulled their charter. There have been SEVERAL orgs. who faced SEVERE allegations & lost their university recognition only to go sub-rosa & come back a few years later. It all depends on THEIR national. Or, is that what you all are trying to say? That A&M officials need to disband the Corps? That argument has been kicked around for a number of years as well. However, the Corps has been THE institution of this University.... every student enrolled at A&M from 1867-1967 was REQUIRED to be a member in the Corps (with the exception of military veterans). The Corps will always be here. It's not always pretty, and damn those kids' stupid antics get on my nerves, but they're here & they're not going anywhere.
The good thing is that we're all aware of the severity of hazing in ANY & EVERY org. & these incidents becoming part of VERY public knowledge is the best way to combat them. I mean, how can anyone be proud to say their a part of the Aggie Band that Hazes, or the XXX Fraternity that Hazes, or the X Football team that hazes? You get the point.....

To AngelPhiSig:
 

When I use the phrase "band nerd," I'm using it in the most loving way I can, because I too am a self-proclaimed band nerd for life. I'm an instrumental music ed. major, and I plan on teaching band. So if I offended you, I'm sorry...within our band we call each other band nerds as a joke...in one class where we had several of us together in a group, we named our group The Band Nerds. Please don't take offense to my post.

It was consensual, says band member
 

The TX A&M campus newspaper (The Battalion) has a chat room, and someone posted this: (there's a link at www.badjock.com)

The funny thing about this incident is that the Battalion has once again sensationalized a story that they really knew relatively little about. Who are they racing against for the scoop anyway? There was only one cadet involved in this incident and he was a senior. It was his birthday so some fish nabbed him, stripped him down, taped him up, drove him down the highway a few miles, and dropped him off with a backpack containing some shorts and a cell phone. He was later picked up by a group of fellow seniors. Since this was not part of any initiation or any requirement for membership or promotion in a student organization and it was consensual, it can not be defined under state or university law as hazing. It was a simple prank pulled on a person by his friends on his birthday. (Spare me the "What kind of friends would...argument.) I understand that seeing the pictures with no explanation is certainly alarming, but when the investigation is complete and the concerned parties are exonerated from any guilt or suspicion, I hope the Battalion will report the result with as much fervor. I agree that hazing is stupid and ruins the fun (as in this case) for everyone else, but the day that fish walk around "bullying" or "hazing" seniors on this campus is the day they should just go ahead and shut everything down.
Aric Howard '02
wah5914@labs.tamu.edu
Texas A&M University

Aggie Band
 

I just saw on the news that the hazing incident was dismissed because when the guys were questioned the result was that nothing UNCONSENTUAL had taken place. Life goes on as normal at College Station. The lifestyles of the service academies aren't much different than the Corp at A&M. Values such as Honor, Commitment, Courage, and Loyalty are instilled in the cadets.

Jeez... Had this taken place at my school to a fraternity, they might as well take their charter, fold it up, stick it in a manilla envelope and mail it back to HQ.

Consentual or not!

So if I were a fraternity at A&M and got caught doing a kidnap/dropoff then all I'd have to do was get the kidnapee to say it was consentual?!

BS!

Florida State's band was disciplined for hazing twice within the past decade. The first time resulted in probation for like 5 years and a multitude of sanctions imposed. The second time occured while I was in school....where at a party new members were being paddled. The band is currently on probation until 2003 or 2004 and if there is another incident to occur in the future at any time the band will cease to exist...no questions asked. It's in writing and the school disciplinary committee is serious. Being put on probation was not fun...I can't even begin to list all of the rules that were imposed. Just citing a case where action was taken against a group....

Probation is not action!

If it were Sigma Nu at Florida State and the same thing happened they might as well call the realator to sell their house!

(Our IHQ takes it pretty seriously also)

I'm just saying where with TWO incedents they get probation. We have zero tolerance.

A few comments...
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by AngelPhiSig
#2- were sick of the "this one time, at band camp" thing. Its still kinda funny when WE do it, but c'mon now.

#3- Some of the people I know that drink the most, are NOT greek- they are in the band.
[/QUOTE

Not only is that old now, but it's painful even to think about! Ewwwwww!

Awww, you're making me homesick! Although because many members are not only in the music department, they have to deal more closely with the director I think they have more of a reason to drink ;)

Hazing is a universal problem and needs to be dealt with wherever it is found, not just with one type of organization however because bands do not have national organizations it may be a bit more difficult to implement disciplinary measures especially when a school might happen to be proud of their band (not where i go though!). Not that this is right, just the way it is.

Emily

Re: A few comments...
 

Why would you have mixed feeling about disciplining the band just because the band director was present? I think they should get the same punishment that a fraternity would get for a similar violation and the band director should also get the same punishment.

If they're "adults" then why are they allowing such childish behavior in their presences? I think they should be heald MORE accountable than the students that participate. Fire them.

What professor/band director would allow that to happen in their presence? Surely they know that they would be fired if that was the circumstance. I don't even see how that could be an issue :confused:

I know. That was my exact point. So, madmax & everyone, if their LEADERS are telling them it's okay, then I think the leaders need to answer to the school first. I think that by replacing the leaders (coach, director, etc.) you can eradicate a lot of the problems. As long as you get someone in there who doesn't support hazing.

How many fraternities have their leaders (nationals) telling them it's okay to haze? None that I know of. They are educated repeatedly against it. Other organizations rarely are.

Anyway, I'm not saying that the band/team/etc. shouldn't be punished in some way. But I do think it MAY warrant different punishment than GLOs.

1. the initial post said nothing about the band director being present.

2. even if your friend at Ohio state was hazed in front of the band director that doesn't mean that the band director took part or told the band that it was ok to haze.

3. we are not talking about 8 year old kids, we are talking about 18-23 year old adults that know hazing is illegal.

I think you are just trying to defend the band because you are in the band.


Your excuse about leaders telling the band it is ok to haze doesnt hold water in my book. I could say the same thing aobut alumni telling a fraternity to haze, but that doesn't make it right.

If a band hazes then they should get the same punishment as a fraternity that hazes..

In the state of TX, CONSENT has NOTHING to do with determining hazing. Whether you consent or not, the nature of the action is the thing that defines it as hazing.

Also, I have a degree in Music Ed and I was in band for 11 years. Band is the only organization that ever hazed me, and it was blatant, reckless hazing. I will openly say that it was while I was at SMU, not UH.

Also, I have NEVER been hazed in my greek organizations.

Once I get a job, (just graduated), if it is directing a band, I will not allow hazing and anyone caught doing it will both be kicked out of band for the duration of their stay at that school and I will also recommend that they be suspended...just my opinion.

high school band hazing
 

Hmmm that sounds familiar... my old high school band drummers would haze new drummers in the "drum room"

On may campus some of the freakiest hazing happens in one of the a cappella groups.

Ivy

Re: high school band hazing
 

Yeah when I was in high school there was hazing going on in my old HS band. The more hardcore and competitive groups do it more than the average HS band.

Those crazy a cappella groups. . .:)

TX A&M finally takes action
 

Corps members charged in hazing incident

By C.E. Walters
October 10, 2002
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Twenty students from the Corps of Cadets A-Battery involved in a hazing incident earlier this year were charged and held accountable for their actions this fall following a University Police Department (UPD) investigation, officials said.

Photos found in June on the computer server of Texas A&M's yearbook, the Aggieland, depicted a man being stripped of his clothes, blindfolded and bound at the wrists, ankles and knees with duct tape. UPD Director Bob Wiatt later confirmed that the men involved in the incident were members of A-Battery, part of the Fightin' Texas Aggie Band.

Wiatt said this summer the photos appeared to be hazing, but did not constitute criminal hazing, in which a person is forced to participate or is otherwise injured in the activities.

Officials would not say what form the cadets' punishment took, nor identify the students who received it, saying the information is protected under the Family Education Rights and Principals Act, which keeps certain student information confidential.

Though the photos were found in June, it is still not clear when the incident took place.

Collins said the cadets, comprising most of the unit, were charged with conduct unbecoming a cadet. While no criminal charges were pursued by the Brazos County District Attorney's Office, the University brought the cadets before joint Department of Student Life and Corps hearings.

After a series of one-on-one hearings, 20 cadets were issued University sanctions, which can range from expulsion to differed suspension to a warning, said Assistant Director of Student Life Mike Collins.

Collins said Corps disciplinary cases are investigated by both the Corps and the University.

Hearing officers examined the UPD's reports to determine if there was a violation and then issued charge letters, Collins said. Hearings were held between the student, an official from Student Life, a Corps representative and an optional adviser of the student's choice.

Corps representatives were present at every hearing, said Richard Mallahan, Corps assistant commandant.