Being Gay and Greek
 

What is it like? Homophobic? Is there a type of "don't ask, don't tell" policy or what? Are there all-gay fraternities? I'm gonna be a freshman next year, and I'm thinking of going Greek...will the fact that I like c/ck affect it?

Pardon my ignorance -- I don't know what c/ck means. As for gays in Greek organizations, it depends on the chapter. I have heard of some that are very open to gays and some that are totally homophobic. There certainly are gays in the Greek System -- some openly, some not.

In terms of gay fraternities, the following was just in "FraternalNews" this past week:

The Post
Ohio University
May 7, 2002

Non-traditional fraternity continues to expand

by Lindsey McKay
Staff Writer

Members of Delta Lambda Phi - a gay, bisexual and progressive
fraternity - are facing a season of triumphs and setbacks in Ohio,
with one chapter setting up on a state campus and another excluded
from joining a greek governing body.

While the University of Cincinnati's chapter of Delta Lambda Phi
celebrates its new charter this week, Kent State University's chapter
is dealing with a rejection vote from its Interfraternity Council.

This comes after Ohio University's IFC last year became the first in
the country to admit Delta Lambda Phi into its ranks with full
membership.

Kent State's IFC voted April 22 to block the fraternity from becoming
a member of the campus fraternities' governing body. Delegates voted
after IFC members presented Delta Lambda Phi's constitution. Eight
fraternities voted against accepting Delta Lambda Phi, four voted to
accept it and three abstained.

Kent State's chapter members did not seek OU Delta Lambda Phi
President John Hall's advice before applying for IFC membership. But
Hall said his chapter might have been able to help.

"I want us to be a resource," he said.

Charlie Grandinetti, Delta Lambda Phi's national executive director,
said he was surprised by the vote at Kent State.

Grandinetti said he is unsure if the outcome would have been
different if Kent State's chapter sought Hall's help, but he
encourages chapters to consult one another.

"If I was going to run a marathon, I'd want to talk to someone who'd
done it," Grandinetti said. "A little knowledge is better than none."

OU is one of only two chapters ever to receive a form of IFC
acceptance. About 12 years ago, a Sacramento, Calif., chapter of
Delta Lambda Phi applied for full IFC membership but received
associate status, which denied it a voice or vote. The Sacramento
chapter left IFC in 1996 when it shifted its base from California
State University, where it found difficulty recruiting new members,
to the Sacramento community, Grandinetti said.

Nationwide, Delta Lambda Phi has 23 nationally chartered chapters and
four colonies, or locally recognized chapters. -

Ohio gained its third Delta Lambda Phi chapter on April 27, when the
national fraternity granted the University of Cincinnati's colony its
charter, said C.J. Liotta, the national organization's vice president
of chapter services.

And this summer, OU's chapter will host the fraternity's annual
national convention. Because of Athens' central location among
chapters, Hall said he hopes to draw 100 delegates.

The event, scheduled for June 28 at the OU Inn, 331 Richland Ave.,
will feature workshops designed to guide chapters looking to join
IFC, Hall said. OU's chapter members will use their experiences to
help others apply successfully, said Hall, who hopes a representative
from IFC or OU Student Activities will participate in the convention.

The University of Minnesota's chapter will be next to apply for IFC
membership, Grandinetti said. The national board of directors gave
the chapter permission on April 14 to petition the council.


I doubt that the above is much help to you, but offer it for your information.

I can't speak for the entire Greek Community...it would depend on the campus...but at my school every chapter had at least one gay brother/sister (in or out of the closet). From what I witnessed, they were never treated any differently.

"Pardon my ignorance -- I don't know what c/ck means."

Cock. I wasn't sure which words the message board censors so I took out the "o."

And thanks for the response.

DLP is an all gay fraternity. Check out the book Out on Fraternity Row by Shane Windmeyer. We went to college together and he's a wonderful gay fraternity man and such an inspiration to others. There are also some great websites you should check out. One is http://www.lambda10.org It could really help you out. Some fraternities are supportive, and some are not. It just really depends. I would be honest about being gay though, of course if you're honest to yourself then you will. That way...being upfront you'll know whether you'd be accepted or not.

While I had no Brothers that I new of that were gay in my Chapter when I was there, I had been conversing with a Brother from another Chapter and school!

We have talked a lot and one night he called me and in the conversation, he asked if my chapter had any gays. I said not that i knew of. He said well, I am and what do you think!?

My response was and your point is?

That was my same response to the question from a Soroity Lady who said do you know I am Black! And my respone of SO It does not rub off!

It is in the eye of the beholder!

Many Groups look down on those that are not of the same mold!

Maybe the reason is they are afraid of the unknown!?

You have to be yourself as no one else can be you!

The message board doesn't censor any words, but that's kind of a tacky way to put it...

It completely depends on the campus and chapter. However, I would say that if you decide to be closeted and it somehow comes out, don't deny it. I think the denial upsets people more than the gayness might.

When I joined my house Freshman year, 7 out of 30 people were either gay or bisexual(though I learned this after I rushed, it did not bother me). now, as time has gone on, we've dropped down to about 2(that I'm fully aware of) out of 35, but no one is treated any differently. I'd say, at least where I am, there are some houses positive to it, and some that are less so. One house on campus is NOW all upper-middle class white males. They had A gay man, and one international student, but both de-activated because of the atmosphere within the house. I know two of the other three houses would be open to it. With the sororities....well. I really can't say.

If you can find a place where you are happy, I'd say, by all means, go for it.

M.
Sigma Nu

I would agree with others that it really depends on the campus and the individual house.

Personally I see nothing wrong with having a gay brother, as long as he doesn't define himself as gay first and a brother second. I would rather have a brother that happens to be gay, than someone who feels that they have to define themselves as gay first and foremost. An attitude like that tends to polarize people which can lead to problems. Finally I see the same problem with someone who defines themselves as straight first and foremost. These are the jackasses that put girls before brothers and everything else.... and that I'm sure most other members of this board causes problems as well.

I personally do not like or would want a gay person pledged and initiated into Sigma Chi. Its not necesarily that I hate gay people..i mean hey i work at TGI Fridays in Florida, its like gay server central, but according to the ideals and values of which my Fraternity stands, I know that gay men shouldn't be allowed. I like them as a person but i do not at all support their lifestyle. My chapter has no gay members, but I have met a couple gay sigma chi's and i've told them that since they are initiated I have to treat them as a brother, but i wish they hadn't been initiated and don't feel they are following our founders principals. And yes if I found out that one of my pledges were gay I would expell them.
I also feel that a gay Sigma Chi would not and can not represent my Fraternity well. Now if your organization's ritual allows gay men or women that is fine, but not mine. I know im going to get blasted by people, but you have no idea what my fraternity stands for so don't tell me that I am wrong. There is a gay Chi Phi at my school who I had to work with when i was in IFC who did a lot for his Fraternity, but he also caused them a lot of grief for being gay and it hurts their rush every semester as well.

There are a few guys in the fraternities on campus that are known to be gay. It has not at all hurt their rush since the issue is not made into a big deal. I think what hurts fraternities the most is when they make a huge deal when they find out a brother is gay. If everyone were to accept it and just go on with their merry lives, nobody in the greek community would know nor would anyone who is rushing. Something like this, which isn't that big of an issue, should not be made into one. ;)

To be quite honest with you, homosexuality wasnt mentioned in my ritual. Neither was heteroseuality. Prolly cause our founders believed its noones business what we do with our personal lives.

I understand where you are coming from. I just find it so very sad and disheartining if that is truely what Sigma Chi's ritual teaches. If that is the case, I have lost some respect for the organization which my father so dearly loved.

If any of our orgs are to survive, we'd better get over this issue and soon. Due to the changing demographics of the college student, the days of the "white protestant greek" is WAY over. Diversity is what it is all about. And if we plan to survive, we better embrase it. 'cause ya cant pick and choose what diversity ya wanna embrase. its all or nothin. its not ala cart.

Just my 2 cents.

The Sigma Chi ritual and im sure every other ritual doesn't say no gays allowed just heterosexuals. What i meant by that is sigma chi has very strong christian backgrounds...hince the white cross. And christianity doesn't except homosexuality. This is why homosexuality should not belong in Sigma Chi. Some of you may be thinking well i've seen sigma chi's drink, drugs etc and thats not in the christian faith either. Well yes this is true and unfortunalty some sigma chi's do drugs or whatever, but you can stop doing it, whereas you can't say hey im going to stop being gay now! We should all accept and promote diversity...afterall sigma chi's spirit says men of different temperments, talents and convictions. But accepting gays into Sigma Chi is taking that spirit too far from what the founders intended it to mean. But like i said earlier, if other GLO's feel their ritual are open to homosexuality, then im all about them joining that organization. And as far as affecting rush...here at UNF where the greek community represents 1% of the student population, it does hurt your rush to have an openly gay greek person in your Fraternity. Rushee's see this or hear about this and don't want to be apart of the now stereotyped "gay fraternity." Now at huge colleges where greek life is 30%+ then i could understand it not being that big of a problem during rush, but unfortunatly here it is.

I find it sad that you cannot accept gays into your brotherhood... I am really good friends with a Sigma Chi alum from the university of illinois who just so happens to be gay as well... and as much as I know about the sigm chi brotherhood - he is the epitomey of what it stands for and promotes. He is the best brother you could ever have and i know all of his brothers feel the same way.

Christian stands on homosexuality:

Lutheran (ELCA): The ELCA has not taken a position on the blessing of same-sex committed relationships. ... The ELCA has acted to welcome gay and lesbian people to participate fully in the life of its congregations and to reject discrimination, assault, and harassment of gay and lesbian persons, and it has called for "discerning conversations" within the church to understand the Spirit's leading in this situation.

Catholic: The Church, obedient to the Lord who founded her and gave to her the sacramental life, celebrates the divine plan of the loving and live-giving union of men and women in the sacrament of marriage. It is only in the marital relationship that the use of the sexual faculty can be morally good. A person engaging in homosexual behaviour therefore acts immorally.

Baptist (ABC): We affirm that the practice of homosexuality is incompatible with Christian teaching.

Unitarian Universalist: They continue this tradition by advocating equal rights for gays and lesbians, including the right to marry. The UU Association was the first large religious organization in North America to welcome homosexuals and bisexuals as full members, eligible to become clergy. They were also the first major religious group to open an office to in support of equal civil rights for (and social acceptance of) Gays and Lesbians.

Anglican (COE): The [Bishops' 1991] statement treats human sexuality in a very positive way. It recognises that Christians are divided in their view of homosexuality in particular. They emphasise that Christians must reject all forms of hatred of homosexual people. They should protect those who are victimised. The bishops conclude, however, that the clergy are called to ‘a different standard’ from lay people. But the bishops emphasise again the need for further discussion. Once the results of such discussion have been evaluated the bishops will consider whether a further statement is required. For the moment the 1991 statement may be regarded as the most authoritative Church of England position on the subject.

Pretty much every major Christian denomination's stand on homosexuality is covered here:http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_chur2.htm



Regardless, I think what you're probably getting from this thread is that individual brothers as well as chapters and national organizations all have very different opinions on gays in general and as brothers. My advice is just to rush - you very well might find hostility from some chapters, and others could care less. Just be open about it from the beginning - it would be a painful experience to find out later on that your brothers are going to reject you for your orientation! You'll want brothers who accept you for who you are.

I'd say that there definitely could be a place for you within a greek organization at whatever school you may be attending - armed with that knowledge, and your desire to go greek, there should be nothing holding you back from rushing.

I would say to try to keep your rush experience as normal as possible, and look carefully at the dynamics within each house. Some chapters are going to be more accepting, in a general sense, than others - try to get a feel for where you'd fit in the best, and also look for indications that may lead to you feeling uncomfortable at a later date with the men you intend to call brothers.

Let's face it - if they sit around and toss about slang terms for homosexuals with no regard for company present, then that is a place you may not find to fit you best as this may make you uncomfortable.

However, there are many chapters that are accepting (overall) of persons of all races, creeds, and sexual orientations - you'll just have to make sure that you take a deeper look at each house during (or before) rush.

I agree.. the only way to find out how people feel is to give it a try, go out, be yourself and rush. If they accept you as you are then they are the type of people you would want as a brother (or sister) anyway.

Just as chapters and the National of a fraternity or sorority may have different views on homosexuality - so might an entire sect of the christian community and an individual person. I was born, raised and to this day am catholic - but i wholeheartedly support and advocate love, if thats men and women, men and men, women and women... i'm all for it - i don't care what youre doing in your bedroom.

Like many others have stated in this thread, it really depends on the campus, or chapter, or people involved in the chapter. There are always going to be people that will accept it and there will always be people that won't.

I think it is outlandish to not accept a brother/sister because he/she has a different sexual preference than the other brothers/sisters in the chapter. Being a brother or sister is about being a friend, someone to be there for you and for you to be there for them. Nothing should dilute that feeling or that bond.

I guess this is just the way I feel because we had a brother that came "out of the cloest" not that long ago. Most of the brothers didn't have a problem with it but there were a few that did. BUT, that feeling from those few soon passed when they finally realized that this is the same guy they have been calling brother since they joined the organization.

To be honest, to discriminate against an individual because they sleep with the same sex is in a sense, the same thing as not allowing an individual into an organization for a number of reasons such as; race, religion, ethnicity, creed, etc. And to those that think otherwise, you need to have a serious moral examination with yourself. It isn't 1900, it's 2002, things have changed in a major way and we need to be more accepting and less discriminating.

Most all GLO's have a basis in judeo - chrisian heretage. I dont think any of us were founded on cheeseburgers and fries.


I am going to respect your opinion here and not really get into this. I respectfully disagree with many denominations opinions. I dont feel this is the place for that debate

How many of us really know what our founders vision was anymore (times changing, etc...) Most of them didnt want minoritys or non-chrisitnas. Hell, my org was white only until 1956. My founders prolly wanted it that way too. Doent make it right. Remember, they were only 18 year olds. They were human, obviously. Much like the US constitution, I believe their principals (my orgs) are timeless, yet elastic and are mallieable to changing times. Thats why all of us still exist some 100/150 years after we were founded, because the ideals are timelss, yet adapt to the times. Most likely none of us would have been bid 100 years ago if you snatched us up and placed us in 1902. Times change.

This I understand as well. I also believe that rush is one of the most important things we do as orgs. Our future depend on it and I wouldnt want to see anything that can hurt that, or a rep. My campus is about 4% greek. We had a brother come out about 2 years ago. It didnt seem to hurt our rush. When he came out we were a 21 man chapter. Now we are near 70. He has since gone alum, and we dont have anymore openly gay brothers, but I dont see it as being a big problem if it were. I can gurandaymtee you that we had to defend that brother to toher greeks, but that what you do as a brother. You stand up for your brothers. Hell, to me, thats the essence of brotherhood. We've all defended brothers before, for drinking, womanizing, whathave you. Why would be afraid to defend a brothert because he's gay, when we already all do it for the other brothers. Remember, life isnt about doing whats easy. Its about doing whats right.

You gotta take a proactive stand. It wasnt that bad. Yeah we were the first, but we're still here. Think about the first integrationists, they were spit on and threatened. Tjis is nothing more than taking a stand. And look how far things have come since then. Not perfect, but hella better. Its about character. I believe an individual has much more character if he stands up for those who cant stand up for themselves and is willing to challenge the status quo. As for becoming a "gay house," its not a problem (for us). We use the same recruitment standards for everyone and our affirmative action policy for our chapter says that as long as our ratios accurately reflect the university's ratios, were ok. But we've never had to implement the policy, because so many people want to be a part of what we have at our campus, we have a good group of diverse guys. I wouldnt trade it for anything. I have learned so much from each and every one of them.

I respect what you have to say and your opinions, I also thank GC for the opportunity to debate things like this in a non-personal, adult manner. After all, its what our country was founded on.

I would encourage you to at least consider the possibility and how you'd handle it, because its gonna happen in Sigma Chi at UNF. And I mean an active will come out. Someday. Since they havent invented a "gay filter" for rush, and you cant always tell by how someone looks, you just might have a closeted brother in your midsts. What if it was one of your best friends? Would you still wish he had never become a brother. The reason I mention this is because our brother who came out...was engaged at the time. Cant always tell.....

I have a somewhat difficult time understaning homosexulaity, even though there are gay people in our extended family. I guess that's because I've always loved woman.

However...

Hiding behind religion is begging the question.

It's true that some conservative religions feel that homosexulaity is wrong. Many of them also don't believe in drinking, dancing, gambling, playing cards, pre-marital sexual relations and other "sinful" behavior.

So, when is Sigma Chi (and other Greek organizations) going to give the rest of those up?

Or does your organization allow you to "cherry pick" which religious beliefs to embrace?

I haven't heard the old not playing cards or dancing thing in awhile...im baptist so thats why I smirked at that one. I personally believe that since becominga Sigma Chi 4 years ago that it has enhanced my religious beliefs and made me a better person in many ways. Even though i don't have anything against pre-marital sex, I am waiting till I am married to have sex. Mostly cause of religious reasons, but since im a health major there are other reasons as well. Never smoked, done drugs either. I don't get wasted every weekend like some brothers or other Fraternity people do either. I did for awhile when i was a NIB, but that got old after a year. Im definatly not a super greek, but I try to represent well as a Sigma Chi and that people who aren't greek can see that hey you can be a high minded man and a gentlemen just as well as someone who isn't greek. But yes I do make mistakes like everyone else does, but you can change your ways in order to represent your organization and yourself better. Yes I feel homosexuality is a sin and that every sin is a sin no matter what it is, but unlike changing your ways on drinking, smoking, drugs etc, you can't just say Hey, i think im going to stop being gay from today on cause you can't. And by living that kind of lifestyle goes against a lot of what Sigma Chi stands for. And yes a lot of GLO's are Judeo-Christian based, but how many portray that in their crests badges pledge pins etc??? Not many...i see daggers, skulls etc...not saying that there is anything wrong with those symbols, but a white cross says a lot when someone sees it, or as in our norman shield...the Cross of whom our badge reminds us(Christ). And I really don't see someone who is openly gay and flaunting their homosexuality with a white cross on their chest. You can repent and apologize for doing something detremental, but like I said you can't say, "Hey im sorry for being gay, I won't do it again." If you wanna be gay then hey man its your life and you can do it wheter I agree with it or not, but not as a Sigma Chi. I respect others who disagree, but A. your not a Sigma Chi, and B. I hope you respect mine in return.

OK this is the part where I got confused...

I can understand if you were of the mindset that homosexuals can change their orientation, having the views you have.

But if you believe that you can't stop being gay, how can you penalize a person for that? Are you basically saying that you can't stop being gay any more than you can stop being Asian/having blue eyes/being 6 foot 5? I think you know where I'm going with this.

I think its very hard to become straight if possible. I don't however think its something your born with. I don't agree that someones sexual orientation is equal to that of someones race. I guess the way for me to describe it is its something that is self-learned at some point in your life...early in life i believe. I don't beleive it has something to do with genetics. Dont know if that makes sense to you but its the best way i can describe it right now.

First, there are still conservative denominations who don't believe in dancing, drinking, etc.

Second, the argument(s) that being gay is a sin, but that there is nothing a gay person can do to change, fly in each other's face, as as well as in the notion of an all knowing, all loving God.

Are you saying that God is allowing gay people to be born and pre-destined to eternal damnation and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it?

I simply can't believe that.

Oh ya i know there are some who don't believe in playing cards...go to any southern baptist church in alabama! :-)
No i don't believe they are pre-destined to eternal damnation, sorry if thats the way you read it. Its hard to explain stuff on a message board, but I feel its something self-taught, and I have known one person in high school who was gay and went straight, but it was something he struggled with for a long time before he decided to change his ways. I just think its extremley hard to change cause you've indoctrinated yourself with this idea.
And a lot of people dont think its wrong, and times are changing in society where people feel its fine to be gay. I don't oppress my beliefs on people cause its not me and you can do whatever you want with your life as long as it doesn't affect me or others in a negative way. Sorry we got off on a religious tangent here.

Predestination arguments aside....
(that's a huge can of worms you really don't want to open :eek: )

Being openly gay in a greek organization is possible.

It depends on the chapter though.

You must realize there IS plenty of homophobia in the world be it based on their religious practices or just simple disdain for the behavior.

This in mind there are chapters out there (more than you'd think) that are open to extending bids to homosexuals. They will weigh that in with all of your other good/bad personal traits. Hopefully they won't look solely at this issue when considering extending a bid.

My personal belief on it is that I see no problems with it at all. Some of my brothers might take issue though, I really don't know.

You'd have to find a chapter where you feel safe, are accepted for who you are, a place where you don't have to change to fit in.

This WILL be an issue when going through recruitment and you MUST be up front about this fact. Unfortunately, tolerance is something that comes with time. Twenty years from now it hopefully will no longer be an issue.

LHT
Kevin

Thats so my favorite part about this whole gay/straight debate. All the straight kids who are experts on being gay. lol. Seriously. Freakign walk a mile in their shoes. Then be an expert. For reals.

Who says that all gays live their lifestyle that way? What if a gay sigma chi believed the same as you and didnt want to have sex before they were really in love. Dont necessarly assume because someone is gay they live a described "lifestyle."

Quote:

And yes a lot of GLO's are Judeo-Christian based, but how many portray that in their crests badges pledge pins etc??? Not many...i see daggers, skulls etc...not saying that there is anything wrong with those symbols, but a white cross says a lot when someone sees it, or as in our norman shield...the Cross of whom our badge reminds us(Christ).

Actually, quite a lot. Do a bit of research on heraldry, and you will see that something as simple as a conifer tree symbolises the death and rebirth of christ. Just 'cause it isnt a celtic cross doent mean its not christian.

Quote:

And I really don't see someone who is openly gay and flaunting their homosexuality with a white cross on their chest.

Again, you are steryotyping. Why do you assume that all gays are like something you'd see at a gay pride parade. My gay brother grew up on a ranch, rodeo'd all through HS, and his first year of college. Was a football player in high school. Chicks are always all over him, and as masculine as any of the other brothers - more so. Big ass mother f*cker too. Could kick anybodys ass who would start shit. You'd never be able to tell. I just dont get that you can assume things......

Quote:

I respect others who disagree, but A. your not a Sigma Chi, and B. I hope you respect mine in return.

I do respect your belief system. I am just trying to understand it. Thats why I keep asking questions. My dad was a national officer for Sigma Chi in the late 60's. I just cant believe that EX teaches that. My dad wounldnt have stood for it.

My chapter, in the past, has had VERY religious members(a number of them have gone on to go to semiary school, one, my pledge father, is now a priest. Despite his VERY christian beliefs....he did not comdemn, or otherwise hold sexual orintation against anyone. I talked about it with him one day. And, in very religious terms that I cannot restate, he stated how tolerance and forgiveness is also part of the christian faith. it is not our place to judge but gods, and therefore, he will not hold such things against people, nor tell them what they can or cannot do, until it affects others. Having a gay/bi brother, does not adversly affect anyone in the house, unless they make it their place to be offended. Therefore, it is not his, or in this case, anyone else's place to judge them for that. It should not be a part of the decision of that person's joining the house. If this person shows the nessassary things to join the house, sexuality aside, there should be no reason to keep him out.

My beliefs on God are different than many mainstream religions, but this is one of theplaces where I do agree with them.


LHT,
M.
Sigma Nu
Knox College

i honestly do not think it matters whether a person in my sorority is a lesbian or not. a person is a person, regardless of their sexual orientation. if a girl shows that her beliefs are very similar to ours then she belongs with us.

Wow! This is a hot one. I'm going to take the unpopular stance of praising UNFSigmaChi here. I find it incredibly intellectually inane for someone to criticize UNFSigChi for his lack of sensitivity to diversity...hello pot, this is kettle! It drives me CRAZY when those who (with the best of intentions) beat the Diversity Drum, but they are completely unwilling to tolerate diversity of thought, belief and conviction that is different from theirs, or "ugly" by comparison. They want diversity without division, and that is just not real.

At the end of the day, UNF has apologized for "getting off on a religious tangent." I think his expressed opinions in this thread have done anything BUT apologize for his beliefs. I don't (sorry DeltAlum) see a young man "hiding behind his religion," instead I see a young man who is stepping up, unashamed of his convicted faith. His faith, based on a book he believes to be the inspired word of his Creator and God, Who "abhors" sex between men. UNF didn't write it....he believes in it! Further, he EXPECTS to be ostracized for his beliefs in a world where right and wrong balances on the knife edge definition of what "is" is.

I suggest that the Christian standard on how we are to interact with homosexuals is beyond most of our capabilities: "Neither condemn not condone." Now that is WELL beyond the reasoning of what most of our undergraduates are being taught in their so called "liberal education" institutions. There is indeed an alternative to condemning OR condoneing; and that very alternative is indeed what is taught in the book of Romans. (UNF - you might want to give it another read).

God loves all people, but doesn't love everything we do...don't confuse the distinction.

Whether a chapter is willing to accept a gay member as a candidate for membership is ultimately the chapter's choice. Whether it's right or wrong will not be defined in these pages.

At least UNF SigmaChi is THINKING about the principles taught in his ritual! I applaud him for that.

Brad

Brad,
I personally wasn't questioning his sensitivity to diversity or his right to his own beliefs...just his thought process.

Yup.

I'm going to echo what a few others on this board have said. I don't have a problem with whether someone is gay or straight, and I don't think that it should matter whether a rushee/pledge/brother is gay or straight. People are the way they are, and sexual orientation isn't a hinderance or a benefit - it just is what it is.

However...that is my personal opinion. Stereotypes abound, and there are many members of fraternities who believe in the stereotype and who are rather vocal about it. Do whatever you want, but be prepared that in some places, they brotherhood will not, as a whole, be accepting.

Collin

Who's talking about sex between men? We're talking about homosexuality - being attracted to men. If we're using your definition, then UNFSigmaChi is not, strictly speaking, heterosexual, b/c he's waiting for marriage, and of course if homosexuality is sex between men, then heterosexuality is sex between a man and a woman.

Also - be careful with usage. We share a common (root) religion, and I seriously doubt that any in my church hierarchy would make any comments similar to 'our God abhors homosexuality.' That seems a bit . . . strong.


How is not passing judgement on someone (ie "condemn or condone") outside of the reasoning powers of a common person? Honestly, this is the stance that is supposed to be taken on most, if not all, people - judgement is reserved for your Supreme Being of Choice. And . . . isn't denying a bid the same thing as condemning? Food for thought, if your stated standard is indeed what we should be using.

True - if only for the subjective nature of "right" and "wrong" with application to this topic. However - everyone's views on the topic are germane for this very reason. Including UNFSigmaChi's.

You and I have knowledge only of our own ritual, but I think the points people are raising in this realm are more likely that a basis in Christian ideals does not necessarily result in an exclusion of gays. Kudos for finding the meaning in this ceremony, and personalizing it - people are merely questioning him as to how he came to this conclusion, all the while attempting to keep from asking questions about esoteric information (which really keeps the discussion from going anywhere, but that's OK).

I don't think the white cross of Constantine implicitly requires this hard-line reading of the Bible; it's up to you to decide how you run your chapter, and interpret your ritual. No one can do these things for you - good points, Brad, and really from everybody all the way around.

This is one of the better discussions we've had here in a while.

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Sorry if I appeared to be off the handle. It still looks like UNF was getting pretty dogpiled by those nasty PC Police tendancies that we can ALL develop when we type first, think later.

I know that the makeup of GC is pretty much in agreement that if we all revisited our ritual a little more often, we'd all be better off, and I truly was trying to recognize UNF's efforts in that respect.


Now, Brother RC:
KSigRC; come on now, at least let's call it like it is. The root word sexuality does indeed infer that sex is involved. This goes back to the whole what "is" is. But for discussion's sake, I will reference it as "same-sex sex" in the future; which IS the root of objection for anyone using biblical standards, including UNFSigmaChi.

OK, the original translation actually called same-sex sex an "abomination." Somehow, I don't think "abhor" is much of a stretch. People in my church hierachy may very well agree with yours; however, they are not God and they did not inspire the written Word.

I think you misqouted me. I stated that it was "beyond the reasoning being taught......," nevertheless, as humans we have a very strong inclination to either condemn or condone. Have you watched the freak talk shows lately, the common person judges in a heartbeat. You are of course right, the judgement is supposed to be reserved. The question about denying a bid as condemning may hold merit. But it's no more or less judging than when we deny a bid for someone who pisses us off.

I applauded UNF for his EVEN THINKING of the ideals held in his initiatory; and was attempting to temper those crying "diversity" without allowing UNF to be diverse in thought.

I NEVER said I agreed with his conclusions. Instead I challenged UNF to read something (book of Romans) that discusses his faith and specifically addresses homosexuality within the context of that faith. I'll allow God to do the work from there. BTW UNF, there are tons of homosexuals who have "changed" as a result of a new found faith in Christ. Impossible? Phil 4:13

I agree.

I think it depends on the campus and what would be accepted.
I'm not sure how I feel about it....I'll have to think some more.

As part of the 1% of the greek population at UNF I have to say that respect what you are saying in your arguments. If I knew a guy who was looking into rushing, I would be the first to push Sigma Chi, because I know what a great group of guys you are :) However, personally I don't agree.

The fact is that homosexuality has been around forever and is not likely to fade away. Homosexuality is natural (has been documented in other animals besides man) it's just not as socially acceptable as it should be.

In this day and age I tend to have faith in people. I believe that if someone was to go through rush who felt so strongly against gays as to not pledge a fraternity who had a gay man in it, it would be the loss of the rushee.

Maybe my feeling are too different because I am a girl in a sorority and not a guy is a fraternity.

Delta Gamma Fraternity
Eta Delta Chapter

I have to say ... I would be very unhappy if my chapter refused a girl a bid solely because she was a lesbian. That said, if a chapter wants to exclude gays, that is its business, whether or not it's in the ritual.

We all know that despite sharing one ritual, not every chapter of a GLO is the same, and they look for different things in members. We turn down people for membership because they (in our estimation) sleep with too many people, drink too much, are sticks-in-the-mud, play too many role-playing games, don't have enough social skills, are too snobby, etc. And not everyone agrees on what it takes to be too slutty or too drunk; the girl we reject your chapter may give a bid to, or vice versa.

So if UNF wants to reject potential brothers based on their orientation, that's his right. It doesn't mean I agree; it just means that if my values don't align with his, I should seek out another house to join.

Now if the majority of his brothers disagree with his stance, that's something the house has to work out for themselves.