Getting Disgusted...
 

It's getting worse:

Daily Lobo
University of New Mexico
April 24, 2002

Fraternity violations reach boiling point
By: Iliana LimÛn


University administrators are considering revamping how they treat
Greek organizations after one fraternity's national charter was
revoked and a member of a separate fraternity was accused of raping a
student.

The national office of Sigma Chi fraternity revoked the UNM chapter's
charter April 20 after reviewing a series of violations it received
from the Dean of Students Office.

The decision by the national office means the group cannnot use the
fraternity name and effectively has been dissolved.

In a different incident March 23, an 18-year-old student accused a
Sigma Phi Epsilon fraternity member of raping her during a party at
the group's house at 1705 Mesa Vista Rd. SE. The woman, who is a
member of a UNM sorority, told police that she had been drinking
alcoholic beverages. She named Matt J. Stafford, 22, as a possible
suspect.

"As an institution, we are again having to ask ourselves why we are
having these chronic problems," Dean of Student Randy Boeglin said.
"We may have to address what role alcohol plays with the Greek
organizations in terms of bad decision-making. This is a cycle that
we have to break."

The fraternities and the woman involved in the altercation could not
be reached for comment. Boeglin said that the University has
conducted a hearing with the Sigma Phi Epsilon members about alcohol
violations noted in the woman's police report.

He added that the individual facing sexual assault charges has a few
days to respond to a complaint from his office. If he chooses to
ignore the request, Boeglin may issue a judgment based on the
information his office has collected.

Boeglin said similar questions about problems with fraternities and
sororities had surfaced in the past and the recent problems only
punctuated the need for great University attention.

"We have to make it clear that this behavior is not acceptable," he said.

The problems that led to the national office's decision to revoke
Sigma Chi's charter began in December 2000 when a fraternity member
taped a swastika to a black female student's illegally parked car.

In response to the incident, which drew several campus protests and
received national attention, the University placed the fraternity on
probation.

Boeglin said the group proceeded to violate the probation and accrued
numerous rule violations during the past few months. The infractions,
according to Boeglin, included:

l Alcohol consumption in violation of Greek life policy;

l Alcohol consumption on the roof of the fraternity house;

l Catcalls from fraternity members that disrupted students'
educational experience;

l Damaging an Angel Fire, N.M., hotel during a recent fraternity event.

"We notified the national organization that we were pursuing an
investigation based on all of these reported violations, and they
decided to go ahead and revoke the charter after reviewing the
information we sent them," he said. "They benefited from not having
to worry about due process and being able to act quickly, while we
have to give so many days notice and allow for hearings."

The University will continue its hearing scheduled for Friday to
determine potential punishment for the violations despite the
national chapter's decision that effectively dissolves the group.

"We want to send a message to the rest of the Greek organizations
that this kind of behavior will not be tolerated, so we will issue a
ruling," Boeglin said.

The Sigma Chi house north of Dane Smith Hall is owned by the national
organization, which controls the future of the property. The national
office could not be reached for comment.

While admonishing the two fraternities for the incidents, Boeglin did
note that the Greek community has made significant contributions to
the University.

"It has healthy elements to it and provides students with a sense of
affiliation, unique leadership and contributes tremendously through
philanthropy," he said. "They do many, many wonderful things and
those should not be overlooked but that does not say that we
shouldn't pay attention to the unhealthy elements. Something needs to
change."

Boeglin said that his office will likely revamp the basic community
standards students in Greek organizations must follow to be
recognized by the University.

"We need to continue measures being implemented by the Greek Life
Office to establish a more healthy lifestyle," he said. "We can set a
bar for ourselves that we must reach. To a certain degree, it doesn't
come from external enforcement alone and has to come internally.

"It's kind of like parenting ó you can't be a parent to a child all
your life. Just as is the case with children, at some point our
fraternal communities must accept responsibility for their actions."


Delt Alum's comments:

Is anyone else just sick of this crap? No, I'm not talking about the University attitude. It appears they've used some degree of restraint. I'm talking about "our" continued breaking of our own Nationals rules and the impression that we feel "above the law."

I don't intend to go back and count them, but from reading Fraternal News, I'll bet there have been at least 30 to 40 chapters closed this school year alone -- both fraternities and sororities. Maybe more. The themes have minor variations, but for the most part are sickeningly similar. Property destruction, gang fighting, ethnic/racial slurs, hazing, alcohol poisioning, underage drinking, date rape -- death.

Dean Boeglin, quoted above, it seems to me, went out of his way to point out the positive side of Greek Life -- but the comment that struck me was his final one. The one about children taking responsibility for their actions. Are we?

I'll just comment on my own Fraternity and leave everyone else out for the moment. In the past month I've been highly chagrined to read about two suspended chapters -- one for alleged hazing, one for a huge fight with another group which ended in injuries and arrests and one alleged case of date rape. Three serious situations at three different chapters in a month.

There are a lot of things that make me proud to be an alum -- but these incidents are not part of them.

And there are groups I read about a lot more than us.

I know about the philantrophy. I know about higher graduation rates. I know about high academic standards. I know about higher contributions to alma mater. I know about higher retention rates. I know about character building. I know about leadership.

I've preached this stuff for years to those who simply want to stereotype us.

Then I read -- more and more often -- about the opposite behaviors. The bad stuff.

Please don't patronize me by saying these aren't just Greek problems. I know that. It doesn't excuse Greek Letter Organizations who do them. They're wrong, and we know it. There is no excuse. Period.

Don't tell me it's all the media's fault. That's bull. If the events didn't happen, there would be nothing to report on -- good or bad. Fairly or unfairly.

Don't talk to me about PC. That's a cop out. You can hide behind that for pretty much anything you disagree with.

I'm disgusted.

I don't want to, but I'm getting closer and closer to giving up. I can still go to alumni chapter meetings and be a part of the Fraternity without worrying about chapter closings and lawsuits in my division. I can contribute. I can still enjoy the brotherhood of other alums.

What I want to do is believe in the system and continue to try to work with the good chapters and individuals.

Maybe the man who said, "The best thing about beating your head against a brick wall is how good it feels when you stop," is right.

I don't want to stop, but I don't know how much longer I can rationalize and justify this kind of behavior -- even if it's only in a small part of the system. It poisons the entire body.

Are you undergraduates Greek men and women -- or are you petulant children who have to be led by hand through your college years, as Dean Boeglin implies? Do we need to move back toward "In Loco Parentis" with more restrictive rules, or can you act with dignity and decorum? Can you be the ladies and gentlemen your organizations are trying to build?

Do you care whether there will be Greek Life for future generations, or are you just in it for a few good times in the present and to hell with everything else?

Show us.

Clean this mess up. Stop destroying Greek Life.

It's important to us. Hopefully, it's important to you. You took a fraternal oath. Live up to it.

Fraternally,
DeltAlum

Delt, I think you're preaching to the choir here. Most of the folks on GC are concerned about the same things you are. Undergraduate and alums alike.

I think that college fraternities are not unlike most organizations that exist in multiple locations. Some are destined to be exemplary of the ideals of the organization, some are destined to be the exact opposite.

The solution I think lies with the kind of ladies and gentlemen that we recruit into our ranks.

Most organizations during rush (at our school at least) recruit with "C&P" (Chicks & Parties). We tried something different last semester. We recruited with our values. We told people what we're all about and then of course the other two things come along with that but primarily emphasize values.

If you recruit the right kind of leaders you will not have these types of problems.

LHT
Kevin

Kevin,

I mostly agree in terms of the people on GC. Even here, though, there are numerous members who think hazing is OK, that stretching the rules is normal and that breaking the law is just part of the game.

The laws can be dumb and the rules too restrictive, but they are facts of life.

What some members don't understand is that their actions reflect on the system. Until membership selection is based more on organizational values than apperance, money, and popularity or anything that doesn't relate to charachter, these problems will continue.

I hate how they make fraternities and soroities out to be some alcohol binge fest. All you hear from the media is how some frat guy was drinking and some girl got raped. They never ever talk about the good that we do. You know, you are jsut as likely to be raped going to a bar and getting drunk, as you are going to a fraternity party.
If girls are being raped at fraternity parties, it's not the fraternity, and it's not the alcohol that are the causes of this, it's the guy who can't take no for an answer and can't keep his pants on. If he's doing this at fraternity parties, he would probably do it just the same if he we're not a member of a fraternity.


Emily
[IMG]C:\My Documents\My Pictures\letters_pbp2[1].gif[/IMG] - Cultivating Sincere Friendships Since 1867

Lady,

In all due respect, please read the article again. It pretty much says the same thing you did.

The problem goes a whole lot deeper, unfortunately.

If this woman had been raped by an independent, the story never would have made the paper. The media wants to portray greeks in a certain way and they certainly did with this article.

ZT,

I strongly beg to differ.

Just today, in the Rocky Mountain News, there are two major stories about campus area rapes -- neither committed by fraternity members. One was allegedly by football players and recruits, and the other by an airman stationed nearby.

In the reported Delt rape case I mentioned, the incident in question happened in a Greek annex. If it had been in a dorm, that would certainly have been reported as well.

The media is not always fair, but we simply have to stop hiding behind supposed unfair treatment and face the fact that a crime was probably committed.

As regards this article, the writer was under no obligation to quote the dean when he talked about the philanthrophy, leadershp and other qualities and ways Greeks helped the campus. The impression would have been much more damaging if that had been left out.

Of course the problem is much deeper. This is not a GLO problem, nor is it a university problem. It is a societal problem, and it stems from the lack of respect that some have for their fellow person.
The question is what is to be done about it? Banning alcohol isn't going to solve the problem. I'm saying I have the answers, but it is unfortunate when one group seems to be targeted more often as the cause.

Now, this is just my opinion, but we can't blame one side for this. We can't blame the males. No one forces these girls to drink at the parties. It is their own choice. They know how alcohol affects people, and they know how alcohol affects themselves. If females want to protect themselevs, maybe they shouldn't drink, or at least limit their alcohol intake. Everone needs to take responsibility for their own actions.

Emily

I have more to add. :)

You stated that we should try to be the men and women that are organizations are trying to build.
Many people out there do not hold the ideals of their organizations as high as they should. Maybe they should...but they don't. But, at the same time, I think about the times I have made stupid mistakes and what was running through my head. That last thing on my mind was, "Man, if I do this, my organization would look down on me." Maybe this should be the first thing and it might be for you. But, it's not for me. The first thing that runs through my head is, "Would I be able to live with myself if I do this?" and "What would my parents think?" I respect myself and my parents more than anything in this world and no organization will come before these two things. I do love my sorority but the ideals were created by someone else. The only people's ideals and expectations of myself that I care about are mine and my parents. That is it. Is it wrong? Maybe.
I suspect that the these men who committed these rapes were not thinking, "What will my fraternity think of this?" I'm sure they were thinking of their own expectations for themselves which obviously were not very high. And, in a case like this, I don't think that any moral regulations of any organization can help someone who is as cruel and as mean to rape a woman.
There are all kinds of people out there. Crazy people are out there in the world. And, yes, some are part of our organizations. We bid the wrong people all the time. It's hard to get someone's life story from a five minute conversation. Most of us are hard workers who want to better ourselves. I just think that it's maybe only a handful of these crazy people who make greek life in general look awful. And it's these crazy people who seem to get their name and organization in the newspaper. Why must newspapers put someone's fraternity/sorority affiliation in the article. If someone was part of the math club on campus, do you think their organization would be reported in the paper if they committed rape? "John Smith...part of the math club...committed rape..." No way....it's boring and un-newsworthy. Now, a member of a fraternity committing rape...as angry as this makes me...the general public enjoys reading about it. Which brings me back to my point....if the rape was committed by an independent, it would never have been reported.

If the rape had been committed at or after a Math Club party, you bet your life it would be reported.

But media coverage isn't the point here.

The point is that people are beaking the law, hurting other people and bringing problems to their organizations and to the Greek System.

I will say one more time, if the rape or hazing or drinking or destruction didn't happen, there would be nothing to write about. Whether it was a GLO or the FFA.

The point is cleaning up our act so that we stop losing chapters and members.

If we want to have a knock down/drag out fight over media coverage -- cool. But let's do it in a media coverage thread. That isn't what this one is about. It's about breaking the law and the rules, and common sense and decency. Let's not beg the question and try to transfer blame.

I feel your pain, those of you that grow exasperated at hearing about chapters being closed and the antics that lead to the closing.

And certainly news organizations such as Fraternal News exist to share with us the negative aspects of Greek Life. And they have no obligation to do Greek Human Interest stories either.

You have to admit, most of us take what we read at face value.

Even though we are often allowing the press to create the famous "box" (the one we are supposed to think out of) for us, where the problem is both created, defined and proven, often independant of any type of rigorous empirical proof.

We also know that the simplest and most emotive messages are what get across to the largest audiences. So by using words like binge drinking, and casting allusions to "rape cultures", its a lot easier to sway the general audience than try some highly learned approach to some of our social issues.

How emotional is the word Rape? How hard is it to even have discussions about issues involving Rape?

I'm rambling a bit because I am working on 1/2 hours sleep (I feel for you ZTAngel) so back on track . . .

It is a test of leadership to be able to create a cognitive framework that allows us to read both intellegently and be aware of the box we are in as well as what lies outside that box. A box that is created for us by the perspective, beliefs, and agendas of others.

We see some good thinking here when people say: Wait, Greeks do good things also which aren't covered, and Greeks seem to get more attention when they do what others are also doing.

When I am reading articles Like Delta Alum was talking about, and the read his comments, I sit back and try to place it in perspective.

As a specific incident it doesn't look good. But is it something that that should prompt such general feelings of digust? Generalized to the entire system?

As Delta Alum said earlier we lost 40 chapters this year to incidents ranging from silly to dangerously stupid to just tragic accidents.

But . . .

I don't how many of you think about this but there are over 5145 Male Fraternity Chapters currently active as well as over 2936 female sorority chapters active! OVer 8000 chapters active total!

If we lost 40 chapters this year to dumb stuff, we lost .005% of out Chapters. Even at a hundred chapters lost we lost only .012% of the chapters that are existing on our college campuses.

Given that perspective, perhaps, just perhaps, we have gotten a little too focused on the negaitves, too bitter, too consumed with what we deem to be social problems.

And dare I say it? We have gotten so used to seeing ourselves through the eyes of those people that hate us, or don't approve of us that we have become like many victims of abuse, we have come to abuse our selves.

And by abusing ourselves, we come to merit abuse because we accept the image that others have given us.

Thanks for taking the time to read my rant :)

James

James as always, very eloquently stated.

I had not thought of it in this light yet and you make a very good point.

Greek Life accross the nation is currently in a great state!

Shutting down these underpreforming chapters is what we must do according to Mr. Darwin.

Perhaps in 5 or 10 years they can be recolonized and can come back in a strong way (with better people).

LHT
Kevin

Ummm....

I'm not sure I understood every point you were making, James.

My impression is that Fraternal News is simply a service which gathers and passes on stories -- good and bad. They are not an editorial organization. Kind of like a clipping agency that businesses use.

My numbers (40 chapters) were a guess. The number might be much higher (or even lower, but I don't think so). I said that I wasn't going to go back to count them. I'm still not.

I know that Delta Tau Delta has lost at least 5 chapters this year. I also know our total number of chapters is down to 115 from 130 or so four or five years ago. I'm not a math whiz, but that first example is more in the neighborhood of 4 to 5%, I think. The second one is probably higher -- quite a bit. I know we can't colonize or recolonize chapters as fast as we are losing them.

So, are we "worse" than other fraternities? Well, I can't prove it, but I don't think so. My admitedly highly unscientific mind thinks it has read about Sigma Chi, Phi Delta Theta, Pi Kappa Alpha and others more often. I could be wrong about that, too, and am certainly not pointing accusing fingers at them. I'm more concerned about getting my on house in order.

Again, respectfully, it just doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me whether the number is .0000001% or 80%. We need to stop doing things that hurt the system. I suspect that murderers make up a smaller percentage than we're talking about here. Does that mean they're not a problem?

I've said before that I've worked with journalists for many years. Some I like, some I don't. That doesn't matter. If we don't give them the material for stories, they won't write about us. If we don't play into their hands -- don't give them anything of interest to report -- they'll take their ball and go home. That would be OK with me.

Again, though, news coverage is not what this thread is about. It's about breaking rules and laws. It's also about maturity and responsibility.

Lenoxxx's 2 cents
 

My two cents-

1- Bad things have been happening with teenagers and college kids for as near as I can tell. And in fact after reading some minutes from another PA chapter of my fraternity from the 1970's I beleive that behavior is actually improving with regards to drugs/alcohol and silly behavior. This stands whether they are greek or not- however reporting and prosecution has increaased leading to the perception that "things are worse"

2- If kids drive you nuts- ala greek undergrads- take a break- they are most likely bound to dissappoint you more times than not- I know I did as an undergrad member. And now as an alumni housing volunteer- I recognize that college kids are VERY imperfect. Now that doesnt excuse rapes or swastikas on cars; but when you are too down on undergrads in general- take a year or two off- clean the palate so to speak!
Everyone needs to take "5"

fraternally

Jason Lenox
Lambda Chi Alpha '97

ZTAngel: I agree with many of your points. Joining a sorority will not assure you that you will never make a mistake again. But it should help you make better choices. Not every member of every org. feels as if the values of that org. is the exact same as theirs...but you should at least be able to relate and for some they do feel that the values match and if you decide to join you have an obligation to attempt to not only do good for that org. but for yourself.

In this situation we can ask where is the article about their community service or GPA or anything else. But let's face it, we are in the spotlight b/c every article that shows how out of hand we are backs up every other article saying that we are binge drinking sexual aggressors.

Rapes happen everyday and my heart goes out to all. It only makes the papers if they can not only put blame on the person responsible but their org, and anyone around them as well. What I want to know is why was this women drinking so much, why was she drinking at a fraternity house(NPC resloution), and where were her friends during this? I am not putting blame on her, just saying that as women we need to watch what type of situation we are put in and what we allow ourselves to do and understand that we are responsible for our actions as much as anyone else, not forget them b/c we could be victims.

Both parties have tons to answer for and your right, it's not the best, but at least the national org. and local school will use them as an example and maybe that may aid in better decision making for the rest of the groups.

I just wish that for one moment we could all focus on the BIG PICTURE. Maybe then everyone could see the light.

Unfortunately, when Greeks behave this way, we don't have to make them try very hard.

This situation is disgraceful.

Leslie,

Which is one of the real points of the thread.

Lenox,

I'm not tired of the generation or the good people I know in the chapters I work with. I'm tired of the attitude that you don't have to take responsibility for actions -- until it's too late.

I know just a little about people in this age group -- having children ranging in age from 18 through 25. They learn and grow, and so do I.

I know, I was agreeing with you. ;)

James, in response to your PM, YES, I agree with you along with Brother Lenoxx.

Actually I agree with all on this thread.

Young people will be young people and unfortunally sometimes do not think before they do!

This is the first time on their own and many cannot really handle it and go a little wild or stupid!

It is still a learning process for them.

We as Almus who work with our chapters can only do so much as we are not sitting on the door step to keep an eye on them.

It is saddening everytime I read of a subject of abuse of any kind as the media will pick up on it much faster than teh good that we as Greek Organizations do. I think DeltaAlum will agree with that as he is with a media group.

Then as I said on a thread that I started about the young man a Phi Kappa Phi from U Kansas who is riding a bike from San Fancisco to Washing DC. for their charity event, this is the true spirit of what we do.

I do not know the answere to many questions and wish I did.

But as you can tell from the many undergrads, there is hope yet for our country! :)

Lady PiPhi-

You CANNOT blame the victim. period.

What you're all saying is that undergrads are the problems here. Often (and I'd even venture to say most of the time) the true fault lies with local alums.

Your local alums went through in the 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's or what have you... They were at the time under a different set of rules, a different culture. Some of them (Dr's and lawyers they may be) do not have a very firm grasp of the current culture and climate in the Greek Life world.

IHQ's, HQ's and such need to be proactive and offer training to the alums that are active locally and not just assume that these folks (as good intentioned as they may be) know what's best for the chapter.

I've actually seen the alums of a chapter totally turn it around. One of our chapters here in Oklahoma a few years back was in a really bad place. They had some serious allegations that could have meant losing their charter that they've had since 1909.

The local alums were able to come in and totally turn things around, saving the chapter. I leave out the details because they are unimportant.

I've seen it the other way as well. A local chapter of a national NIC fraternity (that shall remain unnamed) is now no longer recognized by the University (but still functioning) due to the fact that their alums actually condoned the fact that they had a 14 year old girl serving beer from a keg, in their house at a philanthropy for MDA. The chapter (and I can only assume this was a course of action approved by their alums) carried out a PR war against the University and IFC in the school's newspaper saying that their punishment was overdone and the event was blown out of proportion... etc... their 1.8 house GPA not their fault... etc..

Alums, it goes both ways. Collegiate chapters need their freedom. They do not need alums stepping on their toes whenever they try to do something. But they do need good advice and when necessary a guiding hand pointing them in the right direction. A lot of your chapter closings could have been prevented by proactive and informed local alums.

LHT
Kevin
MT #5
University of Central Oklahoma

Sorry Kevin,

I can't entirely agree. A weak alumni base can certainly be a factor -- sometimes a large one -- but in most cases they aren't the ones who are pouring drinks for underaged people at parties or breaking other rules on a daily basis. I say most, because I realize that some alums help perpetuate hazing traditions, etc. That's unfortunate. I think it's safe to say that those who are in positions of trust such as chapter advisor know better these days, although that may not be the case in every chapter.

Bottom line is that the undergraduates have the final decisions. The alums are not generally there for every party and/or function.

As James (a wise but sometimes confusing man) pointed out in another thread, training for alumni volunteers is also sadly lacking. I couldn't agree more. I think his specific example regarded alcohol counseling, but the fact is that we get little formal training unless we are able to attend division or national meetings. When I first became an assistant chapter advisor, I got a copy of the chapter management guidelines, risk management documents, etc. Fortunately, I was able to attend (sometimes at my own expense, sometimes not) some meetings and receive some training. Still, spending a weekend on several topics is not terribly enlightening when you consider the depth of some of these problems.

I don't know how to fix that problem. It's difficult enough to find chapter advisors in some cases, let alone assistants, house corporation members and others. We're busy people with full time jobs and families to raise.

In the end, it's the undergraduate officers and members who have to decide whether they want the chapter and national organization to survive.

Alumni can help, but we don't live with you. And we can't force compliance with the rules. That's your job.

Wow, this is a really good point. Last night was the final Saturday of the semester, so every house had their big parties or block parties or whatever. Recent alums were some of the most out-of-control men I saw at some of these things. They also come down with the attitude that they can haze the pledges, and a chapter on this campus recently got in some trouble with the local law enforcement due to this.

The other day, I was at a bar with some fraternity men, and they showed me the new drinking game their traveling consultant had taught them.

Phi Mu has a policy that alums and collegians MAY NOT drink together. Does anyone else have something similar?

I wasn't blaming the victim

I feel like part of the problem is this college culture that seems to assert that for the four years we are in college, we are free to act like asses whenever the feeling strikes us. To a certain extent, it's a matter of people acting mature and taking responsibility for their actions... whether it be NOT having that last beer (or four) that will set you over the edge and make you do something stupid, not picking a fight with someone just because his fraternity is different from yours, not going around vandalizing property just for the hell of it.

Four or five fraternity chapters have folded or lost their charter at my school in the last four years alone. One more is currently in danger of losing their charter due to an alcohol violation that occured during a pledge mom hunt (a pledge got sent to the hospital with alcohol poisoning). While two more chapters have arrived to take their place, our fraternity scene is in a state of decline, even though no one, not even the administration, really wants to see this happen.

What needs to happen, in my opinion, is for people to take individual responsibility for their own behavior and collective responsibility for the behavior of their organization as a whole. Membership in a Greek organization is a privelege and does not give us the right to drink irresponsibly and damage property and lives.

By not blaming the males, you are blaming the victims. How does not forcing a woman to drink at a party put her at fault for getting raped? It is their own choice to drink, it is not their own choice to get raped. I don't care if you're piss-ass drunk and can't stand up straight--if you say NO it means NO. no excuses.

No I don't think you understand what I am trying to say. Yes, No means No, and yes the male took it too far. But let's get this, should a women go off with some strange guy? Not unless she's willing to take a risk, I'm not condoning the actiona of rape I'm saying in many situations this can be avoided.
I have a story. I was at a bar and Ibeen drinking quite a bit, and I was dancing with this guy. He asked me to come with him and I did. Well we end up in his car making out in his car. I realized I had made a huge mistake and told him I was leaving. Well I had to fight with him to leave because he didn't want to let me go. Fortunately he knew that no meant no. However, that whole situation could have been avoided if i had just stayed with my friend. I didn't know what I was doing because I had been drinking. I was lucky. Some girls are not as fortunate. But like I said before I could have avoided it all by staying away from him. Not all rapes can be avoided like that, but some can. That's all I'm saying. It doesn't excuse the behaviour, but women just need to be more cautious about who they are with.

I am sure you weren't . . . but it kind of goes to show that "Rape" and "sexual assault" have become such emotive and political terms they are almost impossible to just chat about. *sigh* Which is important.

All,

For the record I think James is correct above.

But that argument has nothing to do with the real subject.

I guess I'm finished with this thread because I can't seem to keep it on topic.

It really wasn't meant to be about rape, or underage drinking or any of the symptoms. Those are probably more important, and deserve their own threads.

It wasn't meant to be another tirade on unfair media coverage. It seems to me that the original story was pretty well ballanced.

This one was supposed to be about chapters closing because of not taking responsibility for their own actions. Breaking laws and breaking rules -- a lack of accountability and what universities are doing about it. Not about the laws and rules themselves. At least that's what I read and understood from the orignial article and the dean's quotes.

This is a public forum, and we can certainly chat about anything we want -- but this is not the direction I intended for this discussion.

I'm not really sure where you were trying to go with this thread deltalum, but as an alum of the university in question i think i can definately provide some further/personal insight on these chapters.

As far as the Sigma Chi chapter's loss of charter is concerned, it was long overdue. During the four years that i was an active the chapter was suspended twice(once for a hazing incident, and another for the swastika incident mentioned in the article) they just got their charter back in January. This was a chapter of about 30-50 members, most of whom seemed to fit your stereotypical 'frat boy' image, and while there were a few great guys in this group, they were outnumbered by the jackasses. However, their nationals seemed to do nothing about this, each time they lost their charter no members were removed, there was no "spring cleaning" and each time they came back just as obnoxious as before, with the same troublemaking members. The suspension did not faze them.

I personally think the university did the best they could considering they seemingly had little to no support/help from the national organization in reprimanding the chapter, but maybe that is more of the issue at hand, is why is it that the nationals are not concerned(is that where you were trying to go with this?)

I know DeltAlum doesn't agree with this statement, but I do, and the reason I do is because it has happened on my campus. One of my sisters was raped by an independent and everything was kept hush hush and swept under the rug. Then this year some girl accused one of the Sig Ep brothers of raping her and the police came down to the house, arrested him, and threw him in jail without even hearing his side of the story. There IS a greek bias. People are always looking for some sensational news, and if it deals with a greek organization, it is. Why this independent was not thrown in jail or ANYTHING boggles my mind. Why do that to the brother of the fraternity if you ar not going to do it to every other person accused of being a rapist? Because it's hot news, that's why.

This could be one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen. That's like saying "Don't walk down the worst street in town, because you deserve to get shot then." These women don't make a choice to get raped! If a woman at the party has too much to drink, the brothers working at the party should cut her off, call her a cab, and send her on her way, not rape her. I'm not blaming the entire fraternity, b/c it's the actions of one brother, but here's something we were told on the day we took the Initiation vows of Delta Phi Epsilon. "While you will always be an individual person, you will also be thought of as a member of this sorority. Your conduct should reflect the values and ideals which we set forth. We don't ask you to change, for we saw these ideals within you at recruitment. We ask you to be sure to think before acting, and remember, your actions reflect on this organization as a whole."

If you can't understand those words, you shouldn't be a part of the Greek System. That may sound harsh, but it's the truth.

DeltAlum, I agree with you. That article had more positive stuff in it than 99% of the articles that were written. But, as ktsnake said, the greek system is growing, and maybe now that we're all cracking down on the "rogue" chapters and cleaning house, we can build chapters we'd all be proud of.

First of all, this happened to me before I joined the greek system. I am in my third year of university and just initiated at the end of march.
Secondly, when I wrote this, I said that some times things like this happen out of the blue, when they can't be avoided. I'm not asking people not to walk to down the streets at night, but use a little common sense. Don't walk alone at night, stay where it's well lit, etc, etc.
You're right, the brothers who are hosting parties should look out for their guests, they should be responsible hosts.
None of you seem to understand what I am trying to say here. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, for their own behaviour. Those throwing parties should be responsible hosts, just like the guests should be responsible. We need to stop playing the victims and take a proactive stance on this problem. We need to join together to create fun and safe environments for everybody. The national organizations, need to take an active role in punishing their chapters. it's obvious that just taking away a chapter's charter isn't solving the problem. So yes, the question is why aren't the national's doing anyhing about it. And Maybe the schools should be dealing directly with the nationals instead of the chapter when problems like this arise.

I don't think it's good to play the blame game because both parties were equally responsible for their own actions. In order to drink responsibly, people should make sure they are in charge of their bodies at all times. At the same time, males and females need to respect others and not take advantage of their intoxicated state.

Even if they had permission, they shouldn't do something with someone who's drunk.

The female is to blame because she allowed herself to get too drunk to defend herself and the male is to blame because he couldn't respect the rights of another person.

Both sides need to be looked at.

But I do agree, I think there is a bias against Greek related incidents. With an independent, police just want to protect the lives of the innocent and not humiliate them publicly, but when it involves Greek they go all out. Maybe they are thinking that if they di it enough times, the Greek system will be eliminated and then their work will be cut in half. Who really knows what they're thinking.

I don't understand what is so difficult about this issue. Follow the laws set forth by the state that you live in. Follow the rules set up by your campus and fraternity or sorority. Do these things, and you don't have trouble.

As for this whole rape issue...1) at my campus, greek or not, rapes were known about by the student body and reported on. 2) if a woman sees a man completely wrecked, can't talk/walk and such, and could easily be taken advantage of, she should call him a cab and send him home, just like the fraternity brothers should do for a woman they see. I don't understand what's so hard to see in that!!! Have a little respect for each other for the love of pete (I don't know who pete is :))!

Finally, for James...bitter much?!? Come on, you can't possibly believe that a woman at a party who has too much to drink and is not really in control of herself is preying on some guy do you?!?! I'm not saying the guy is evil, but he's a total asshole if he rapes her in that state! Plain and simple.

Rape and Sexual Assault are serious crimes that need to be dealt with.

However . . .

You seem to equate Drunken/inebriated/alcohol involved Sex with Rape. There is a huge difference between a girl who is drunk and feeling less inhibited that chooses to sleep with a guy (and maybe regrets it in the morning), versus a girl that is passing out on her feet. Many women that are making these arguments seem to never differentiate between the two, or see no difference at all.

Many of the cases you are talking about involve women that were certainly not passing out, but had to face the proverbial walk of shame the next day and regretted doing it (especially if the boy never calls her).

Further, Rape and Sexual Assault, are serious legal charges that need to be proved. It is unfair to use them to describe situations that are more indicative of regret and bad judgement.


I see no need for me and other males to feel some universal guilt and walk on egg shells for crimes that we have not committed OR for the regret of some women for their own actions.

So please stop trying to force men in general to wear a garment of guilt and shame for the evil or misjudgements of others.

Have a a nice day!:)

James--

Nobody asked you to wear a garment of shame. And I think there is a big difference between a girl who wakes up the next morning thinking, oh I f'ed up and the girl who says no, but is too drunk to fight a guy off. I'm not talking about walks of shame. I'm talking about a girl who is too drunk to know what's going on. If that's me generalizing, so be it. I still think no means no, and that if you, as a man, can see a woman is too drunk to be able to really make an educated answer, you shouldn't sleep with her, period.

Just say NO to unwanted sexual advances . . .

Also: Do try and gouge his eyes or bite his ear off or knee him in the groin . . . at least it will leave bruises for the court case.

It won't stop a flat out RAPE . . . but it will stop most cases of acquaintance or date rape.

Rest assured if a bunch of guys, even guys I know, that tried to runa train on drunken James, would find themselves well enough marked the next day that there would be NO doubt that it was a forced situation . . .