Dual Membership?
 

Hi folks -

A question: would it be possible for a person to hold membership in an NPHC group and in an NPC/NIC/IFC group at the same time? I know it's not possible to have membership in two NPHC groups at once, and I know it's not allowed to have membership in two NPC/NIC/IFC groups at once.

I know for some folks this is a heretical proposition, but I'm just curious.

SoTrue1920,
Yes, you're right, just as someone cannot be initiated into 2 NPHC groups, one is not permitted to be initated into 2 NPC groups.

Everything that I have ever read in "NPC lore" states that a woman can only be initiated into 1 of the 26 groups in the NPC. It doesn't actually say anything explicitly about the 4 women's NPHC groups.
This is what it says from the Panhellenic compact of the NPC (excerpt):
"A woman who is or who has ever been an initiated member of an existing NPC fraternity shall not be eligible for membership in another NPC fraternity. (1).

I have never read anything that says you cannot be initiated to an NPC sorority, and then be initiated additionally into an NPHC group (or vice versa). However, I would certainly say that this practice would be frowned upon, even if it is "technically" permissible from an NPC standpoint.

Lots of women are in an NPC group + a music fraternity, and lots of women are in an NPHC group + a music fraternity but I think that's considered a "different" scenario and not seen as being disloyal to your social GLO.

From an NPC standpoint, I guess I would have to say that it's technically "permissible", since the NPHC 4 women's orgs are not among the NPC's 26 members, but to be initiated into "1 from the Conference and one from the Council" would probably be frowned upon (and perceived as being disloyal). So, while technically permissible (at least from an NPC standpoint) would be frowned upon, or as you put it, a "heretical proposition". As an NPHC member, what do you think? Am I right?

I Don't Think So
 

From what I have seen, only dual membership in honor societies, service fraternities/sororities, and professional fraternities are allowed in NPHC organizations.

Technically, NPHC and NPC/NIC organizations are all social fraternities and sororities, and you can't be in two socials.

I SUPPOSE one could pledge one org, then transfer and pledge another without telling.

CutiePie2000 - you're right, something like this would probably be frowned upon by both councils and probably isn't a good idea. It's interesting though, that there are no regulations in place that specifically prevent it. I wonder why that is.

Dardenr: NPHC organizations are community service organizations, not specifically social organizations (even though we have social aspects). Because we're looked upon as service organizations, that's one of the reasons why I wondered whether a person would be allowed to hold membership in an NPC/NIC organization.

Is there any master database of membership of all fraternities and sororities? If someone transferred from one school to another and pledge another sorority, is there anyone that they could be found out?

I understand that NPC keeps a database of names and social security numbers.

Actually. . .
 

SoTrue, while I understand that NPHC members are taught that they are community service organizations, with all due respect, that is not true. This has nothing to do with any personal judgment of the work of the NPHC, but the law.

Title IX, passed in 1972 I believe, was passed to ensure equity between men and women in various aspects, including collegiate athletics, forcing colleges to have equal resources allocated to both men's and women's sports. For example, it is not equitable for the men's basketball program to be Division I while the women's basketball program is Division III.

Title IX also ensures that student organizations on campuses receiving federal funds of any kind (usually interpreted to include federal financial aid) are equal to both men and women. This means that if there is a Home Economics club, it must be open to both men and women.

There are many organizations that are exempt from Title IX, allowing them to remain single-gendered, such as youth movement's like the Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts, and Boy's Nation. Also exempt from Title IX are SOCIAL Fraternities and Sororities.

Service Fraternities and Sororities are NOT exempt from Title IX, therefore, they may not exclude applicants on the basis of gender. Examples of this are Alpha Phi Omega, the National Service Fraternity, coed since 1976, and Gamma Sigma Sigma Sorority, which has a handful of male members.

Therefore, if any organization on the NPHC was a service organization, then they could not bar membership from someone of the opposite gender.

I apologize for sounding like a know-it-all, but being a Brother of Alpha Phi Omega, I have to be well versed on what is "service" and what is "social" in the eyes of the law.

I wonder, though. . .I know that Zeta Phi Beta and Phi Beta Sigma are separate entities. Since you are constitutionally bound, however, I wonder if Zeta and Sigma could be the only NPHC groups legally considered service organizations. Only Zeta and Sigma would apply in this case because if a man wanted to be a Zeta, Sigma exists as the legal alternative.

It's like if a woman wanted to play basketball in college. .. legally, she would HAVE to try out for the men's team if there was no women's team. But if a women's team existed, the men's team has the right to turn her away.

SoTrue1920, as far as Delta is concerned, one is not allowed to hold membership in Delta and an NPC group.

dardenr, Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. is a PRIVATE service organization. Because we are a PRIVATE organization, we are able to restrict membership. If I'm not mistaken, this is also true for the other organizations in the NPHC. Additionally, we are on college campuses because the SCHOOLS ALLOW US THERE. I'm sure we would all agree that if any organization would jeopardize a school's federal funding, modifications would be made.

Re: Actually. . .Our presence isn't anything NEW...
 

Question: have you thoroughly researched how organizations, the NPHC in general and Alpha Kappa Alpha, Inc. specifically generates funds?


:confused:

I'm sure when you have done this thorough research, you will understand how "we" operate.

:D

With all due respect, all Fraternities and Sororities are private organizations, no matter if they are social or service oriented. Each organization is allowed by its school to operate there, and each organization is subject to the rules of the school. That's not in question.

It is not in question that each organization has a service-oriented thrust; I agree to that. The question is whether NPHC organizations are service fraternities and sororities or not. I argue that if they were, membership would be open to both men and women, because service fraternities and sororities are not exempt from Title IX.

Re: Re: Actually. . .Our presence isn't anything NEW...
 

Yeah, but if the University at which you operate lets you use any resources at all (web space, meeting facilities, administrative support) you are considered to be partially funded by the university.

One should do THOROUGH research (exclusive of the internet) and find out OFFICIALLY how one is able to operate in the manner that they do.

Officially does not mean, he says/she says, what I believe to be the truth, what I understand this to mean, how I interpret A,B,C or D, or my organization (non-NPHC) operates like this, therefore, you must also...

:D

Isn't it great how people who are not a member of certain organizations can tell the members of those organization not only what they are or are not, but also how they're run. :rolleyes:

NOW, the question IS can a member of an NPC/NIC/IFC org be a member of an NPHC group at the same time, ie WHAT ARE THE RULES REGARDING THIS.

The question IS NOT whether NPHC groups are service/social and/or subject to Title IX. :rolleyes:

Things would be just fine on this board if some folks would keep their mouths closed if they don't know ALL ASPECTS of a situation.

Well, whether or not any of the orgs have rules strictly to this effect, would you as a member of a NPHC, NPC or NIC group even consider pledging someone who was a member or another one of those groups? I don't think many of us would - for any number of reasons. If nothing else, being a good member of any of these groups puts a lot of constraint on a member's time, and it would be difficult to live up to both obligations.

But, technically, Iotas are members of NIC and NPHC both! So if you wanted to twist words around, you could say they joined an NIC group and an NPHC group.

Ya know what Fuzzie, that's a good point. :) Kappa Alpha Psi is also a member of both the NPHC & NIC. But I'd also wager these two groups are the exception. ;)

We're all here to learn.

If anyone has any specific resources that they feel I should turn to, feel free to send me a private message with some starting points.

In turn, I can direct anyone who is interested to the specific wording of Title IX.

peace

Fuzzie and Kelli -

Yes, Iota and Kappa are members of both the NPHC and NIC - but those are entire organizations. I was referring to individual members.

Dardenr: Interesting theory about Zeta and Sigma, but I'm fairly certain that isn't the case. Hopefully a soror or Sigma brother will correct me if I'm mistaken.

Now, from my reading of the TitleIX regulations, I saw this:
http://www.dol.gov/dol/oasam/public/...es/titleix.htm


Section 1681. Sex

(a) Prohibition against discrimination; exceptions. No person in the United States shall, on the basis of sex, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any education program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance, except that:


(6) Social fraternities or sororities; voluntary youth service organizations

this section shall not apply to membership practices --

(A) of a social fraternity or social sorority which is exempt from taxation under section 501(a) of Title 26, the active membership of which consists primarily of students in attendance at an institution of higher education, or

(B) of the Young Men's Christian Association, Young Women's Christian Association; Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Camp Fire Girls, and voluntary youth service organizations which are so exempt, the membership of which has traditionally been limited to persons of one sex and principally to persons of less than nineteen years of age;

----
So it would seem that NPHC organizations might fall under Section 6B of Title IX, because we are voluntary youth service organizations (at the collegiate level). This is such a gray area. What probably happens on most college campuses is that in order to keep NPHC organizations exempt from Title IX, University administrations think of them as social organizations. However, all NPHC organizations were founded upon a rubric of community service. How the university thinks of us and how we think of ourselves are two separate arguments.

I think I'd consider extending membership to a person to whom this applied, but then, I can actually see the reasons why someone might want to do this in the first place.

Being in a band or arts fraternity or sorority is every bit as much as a time constraint as being in a service/social sorority or fraternity, but no one thinks twice of extending membership to someone who's really involved in such an organization. Additionally, what if someone wanted to join an NPC/NIC or an NPHC organization as an alumnus? Would it be as big of an issue then?

From the NPC perspective, generally speaking, alumnae initiations are pretty rare. Also, I should emphasize that for an NPC Prospective alumna initiate, the woman in question must be sponsored by an alumna member in good standing (or the local alumnae chapter) and then be extended an invitation to join.

Once initiated, an NPC alumna initiate has the same rights and privileges that she would have had, if she'd been initiated as a collegian.

I don't know if it would be as big of an issue joining as an alum.
Is it a regular occurence for NPHC women to be initiated as alums? I can tell you that for NPC alum ladies, most of them are like, "Alumnae Initiates? What's that?", but then often times, the women who are serving as the House Mothers will be alumnae initiated.


I would be interested in emailing both the NPC and the NPHC to get the definitive answer. I do know where the NPC website is. Can someone please post the link to the NPHC website? I looked on the each of the Divine 9 websites to see if there was a link to the Central NPHC website and did not have any luck (unless I missed it and did not see it). www.nphc.com is North Phoenix Heart Center and www.nphc.org is an empty domain. Going to Yahoo and typing in "National Pan-Hellenic Council" did not bear fruit either.

If I get the definitive, official answer, I would be pleased to share it.

You're right, and there are Greeks who are in sports, etc. But I think that NPHC and NPC/NIC groups, despite their differences, make fairly similar demands on one's time. Sororities and fraternities schedule their events around the events of the members (one reason the chapters on my campus had chapter meetings on Sunday nights - no one's at a track meet, or meeting with the young democrats, or putting on a school play then) and thus end up doing things at the same time as each other. I would imagine that a member, say, of an NPHC group and an NPC group would frequently find herself expected to be in two places at once.

So I guess I didnt' mean the total time so much as how it was allocated.

Plus, there are other things - as an AXD, I am expected to wear "no other badge" higher than my Quill or at the same height. I don't know, do NPHC groups have similar policies? What would the member do with her badges, never wear them at the same time?

NPHC groups don't have alumni initiation in the same way NPC and NIC groups do. Once you graduate college, you join a grad chapter, and being active is more expected than it is with NIC/NPC groups. You can join a grad chapter post-graduation, but it wouldn't be called "joining as an alum," and it's way more common.

Does that help? I'm not an expert on NPHC groups myself, so forgive me if I got something wrong.

To CutiePie2000
 

The link to the National Pan-Hellenic Council website is http://www.nphchq.org

I hope this helps.


Texas_Dove

Re: To CutiePie2000
 

Terrific! Thank you! Will compose the emails tonight when I have a moment to reflect how I want to word them....

ABOUT THE NPHC
 

Statement of Purpose

The purpose of the NPHC shall be to foster cooperative actions of its members in dealing with matters of mutual concern. To this end, the NPHC promotes the well-being of its affiliate fraternities and sororities, facilitates the establishment and development of local councils of the NPHC and provides leadership training for its constituents.


The NPHC is not a regulatory arm. It is a collaborative entity created to facilitate communication between the historically black Greek lettered organizations. As such, the NPHC would not (or rather should not) necessarily have an official position on dual NPHC/NIC/NPC membership, because it would be the individual organizations that would determine that for their individual organization. For example, even when the eight (then) members of the NPHC decided to institute the MIP (membership intake process) and abandon the activities surrounding pledging, the NPHC had no control over what activities each individual member organization did to constitute its MIP. Therefore, what Kappa Alpha Psi does for its MIP is very different than what Phi Beta Sigma does to initiate new members, but both are considered MIPs.

Fuzzie Alum and CutiePie:
I would actually think that SoTrue's hypothetical would be more relevant the other way around: What if a black, white, Asian or Latina woman had pledged Alpha Gamma Delta, for example as an undergrad, and maybe 10, 15 years after graduation was sponsored and decided to join Zeta Phi Beta (since most NPHC groups have folks joining in their 20-70s, it's not uncommon for a new member to join decades after their undergrad experiences). While I assume that once you're an Alpha Gam, you're always an Alpha Gam, maybe you've since decided to be now very active in a sorority, and you decide that Zeta is active in your community, you like the women, yada, yada. The question she was asking, I guess: do the "rules" prohibit you as an Alpha Gam from joining Zeta without "depledging" or "denouncing" your Alpha Gam membership?

Re: ABOUT THE NPHC
 

I'm fairly certain that an Alpha Gam sister wanting to join Zeta Phi Beta would be frowned upon. The reason I say this is because, once initiated, a member of an NPC sorority is not allowed to join another NPC sorority, regardless of whether or not she denounces her membership in her original organization. Now, I know that Zeta is an NPHC org and not an NPC one, but to me the rules should still apply...

My rationalization for saying this is because, basically, when you get initiated into an NPC organization you are considered to be a lifelong member of that group. Should you at any time decide to leave the organization, you are not allowed to join another NPC sorority -- not as an alumna or a collegiate.

I would think that the same would hold true of an NPHC organization also if a situation ever came up where an initiated NPC member pursued membership in an NPHC group (or vice versa). There may not be a written rule in Panhellenic currently outlawing that from happening, but it's probably because the issue has never been brought to the National Panhellenic Council's attention. (I'd really like to know if this has ever come up!)

This is a really interesting thread! :) I've always considered NPHC and NPC sororities to be equal entities, so it never entered my mind that someone might want to join one organization of each group.

Re: ABOUT THE NPHC
 

Shelacious,
Since the NPC rules only apply to the 26 NPC groups, I have never read anything that states that it is not permissible to be initiated as an Alpha Gamma Delta collegian and they say, 15, 20 years later be permitted to join Zeta Phi Beta (if invited), since ZPhiB is not in the 26 NPC roups.
Since Zeta Phi Beta is not one of the NPC 26, I don't think a woman would have to renounce her AGD vows as she wouldn't really be breaking an NPC rule of being iniated into a 2nd NPC org.
(I should emphasize that if a woman renounces her membership in AGD, she can never re-join AGD, nor any other NPC org. Once you've borne witness to an Initiation Ceremony, that's it, you've used up your 1 NPC "chance").

The only explicit "no-no" that I know of and have read about would, again, to be initiated into Alpha Gamma Delta and then say, try to join Chi Omega or Kappa Kappa Gamma or something, because you can only be permitted to be initiated into 1 and 1 only, of the 26 NPC groups. But that's not what we are talking about, so I will jump back to the topic at hand....

I guess since there is this absence of things being explicitly written down vis a vis the NPC + NPHC membership quandry, we have to sort of draw conclusions about being an initiate of an NPC and an NPHC. There is a lot of grey area here, for sure...
This is a good thread....good discussion

Since, as Shelacious said, the NPHC is not a regualtory arm, there is no "NPHC rule" that would be broken per se. HOWEVER, as I stated (I thought) when I replied, it is against the rules of Delta for a woman to be a member of an NPC group AND Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Inc. IN OTHER WORDS, it would be up to the rules of the individual NPHC orgs whether or not this is permitted.

SoTrue1920, I know u meant individuals. ;) :p

There is a lot of debate on this thread about rules and technicalities, but IMHO it boils down to one simple thing:

I took an oath of allegiance to my sorority. Period.

Without going into too much detail, I'll use my experience as an example: I was told there are only very specific times that we are ever to wear our official badge, and since those times would never coincide, this wouldn't be an issue.

And a slight correction: joining an NPHC sorority post-collegiate is called "going grad" or "joining a grad chapter", but it has the same meaning as "joining as an alum", even though the words are different. Potato, potahto. :)

to add...
 

SOME of the NPHCers use "alumnae" which is like saying "grad" or "joining a grad"

"Grad" equals graduate


:D

No one's questioning your allegiance, DeltaBetaBaby, or anyone else's. This isn't a matter of allegiance (at least I didn't think of it that way when I initally posed the question).

Just because you swear allegiance to one entity, it doesn't mean you can't swear allegiance to another. Think of immigrants who hold dual citizenship - when I become a Canadian citizen in four years, I'll have to swear allegiance to Canada, but it doesn't mean that I've given up my rights and freedoms as an American.

Re: ABOUT THE NPHC
 

Hey Shel, wanna follow me around and be my interpreter for the rest of my life? :D

This is what I was essentially getting at, and it seems that it's boiled down to the fact that since the NPHC isn't a regulatory arm, the decision is left up to the discretion of the individual NPHC member organizations.

Technically, NPC isn't a regulatory arm, either. What it does have are "unanimous agreements" - that is, every NPC sorority agreed to them, so it's not as if it's being forced on member sororities unwillingly. (For example, they all agreed that joining more than one NPC group was bad, and that high school sororities were a bad idea.)

So this brings up a related question: is it time for the NPC/NIC and NPHC to get together and collaborate on certain regulations -- like this one, for example?

Well ...

Not to pick on the men here, but it seems to me that the women of the NPC have more agreements than the NIC men do. Like the women want to get together and find one way they all like, and the men of each fraternity want to go their own way. (Maybe it's just because there are more NIC groups than NPC, or maybe it's a gender thing!) I don't know how it works in the NPHC - do the women's orgs ever feel like the men push them around (since there are 5 to 4 anyway), or keep them from agreeing? Plus there is such a difference in terminology and tradition - for example, see the thread where a pledge forum was proposed, and the NPHC members thought, "Wait, pledging is banned," and NPC/NIC groups were like, "Huh?" I would imagine if all three groups got together, the only thing they would agree on would be, "Hazing is bad." (That and "Greek is good.")

Of course, maybe that's also an argument for an umbrella group, so we all understand each other better. So that NPHC women know that just because NPC groups "pledge," that doesn't mean that we support hazing. So that NPC women understand that you rush one NPHC group, rather than going to a complicated series of parties at all four. So your average NIC member can name the NPHC men's groups. Basically, so we support each other instead of (most of the time) ignoring each other.

And I would say that such a group should include the NALFO (http://www.nalfo.org/), too, and an Asian or MCGO council if they are ever created.

On a related note...FYI
 

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Wednesday, April 03, 2002

CONTACT: Peter Smithhisler, Vice President for Media & Community Relations
3901 West 86th Street Suite 390
Indianapolis IN 46268
317.872.1112
317.872.1134 fax
pete@nicindy.org

Richard Lee Snow, Executive Director
2322-24 North Broad Street
Philadelphia PA 19132
215.228.7184
215.228.7181 fax
executive_director@kappaalphapsi.com

Joint Meeting of the Council of Presidents and the North-American Interfraternity Conference Leaders of the National Pan-Hellenic Council's (NPHC) Council of Presidents (COP) and the North-American Interfraternity Conference (NIC) met in the Nation's Capitol on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 to identify strategies for improved communication between the two organizations, to commit to collaborative educational efforts on behalf of fraternities, and to build a solid partnership between the two organizations.

"We had a very successful meeting," said Jon Williamson, NIC Executive Vice President. "It was important for us to express our deep commitment to collaborating with the Council of Presidents to achieve a working partnership between our two organizations," he continued.Mr. Richard Lee Snow, Executive Director of Kappa Alpha Psi Fraternity, Inc. shared that "It was a much needed meeting. It is extremely important that NIC fully understand our structure, especially as it relates to our Council of Presidents and their authority over the NPHC

National President and Board. National Presidents Howard L. Tutman, Jr. (Kappa Alpha Psi) and Lloyd J. Jordan, Esquire (Omega Psi Phi) clearly expressed the concerns of COP and offered suggestions on how we can work together in the future. "

The leaders agreed to:

- Be pro-active in preventing a repeat of the inappropriate social behavior by some fraternity members, including those actions such as black-face and mock slavery depictions.

- To develop a philanthropic event to be co-sponsored by
NIC and NPHC chapters on several campuses.

- Identify existing educational models that promote
understanding and respect among our fraternal organizations.

- Collaboratively develop educational materials and public
relations guides prior to Halloween 2002.

- Identifying meaningful roles for NPHC members in the NIC
structure.

- Hold a news conference with the leaders from other fraternal umbrella organizations to call upon the current undergraduate members of fraternities and sororities to act in accordance with their fraternal values in social settings.

In addition, leaders from both organizations will again assemble in
Washington DC on Monday, May 13, 2002 to continue the discussions.The Council of Presidents is comprised of the titular heads of the nine traditionally Black Greek-Lettered Organizations that make up the National Pan-Hellenic Council. They collectively represent 1.4 million college-trained individuals throughout the United States and abroad.

The North-American Interfraternity Conference membership is comprised of 66 Inter/National Men's Fraternal Organizations with a mission to advocate, promote, and enhance the excellence and effectiveness of the men's college fraternity movement. The organization represents over 5 million alumni.
-30-

OK, I take that all back about men not working as well together as women! They're definitely beating us to the punch here!

Interesting discussion everyone ....

I would probably say one might find it challenging to be a member of both a NPC and NPHC group at the same time. As has been noted, there are different characteristics to both, and one only has much time in day, eh?.....

Now, there have been situations where a NPHC/NPC member (like SoTrue1920) may be in a city where there are no NPHC grad chapters or collegiate chapters from her own group. In many cases, these members get involved with the Alumnae Panhellenic, become a 'social' member of an different NPC alumnae chapter, and in some cases, even become advisers to an different NPC group. (Or like me - volunteer as the Panhellenic Adviser since there was no AOII collegiate or alumnae chapter here in Winnipeg).

I think we all agree that our sisterhood is special, regardless of NPHC/NPC, etc., and that is the important thing! That's why we all love GC!

As for the official answer to the 'question', I have reviewed NPC Green Book, and found nothing one way or the other - it only reviews joining more than 1 NPC group. I have submitted this question to my campus NPC Area Adviser. She too was intrigued by the 'question', and feels that, as all of you have, that it is an important one for review for all umbrella groups.

Interfraternally,
Shala

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
AOP - KL
U of Manitoba Panhellenic Adviser
President, Canadian Interfraternal Assc.

Re: On a related note...FYI
 

Someone must have been reading my mind. :D Thanks Soror for posting this. It'll be interesting to see what comes out of these meetings.

Shala -

Thanks for the perspective (and for reviewing the NPC Green Book)!

Re: Re: On a related note...FYI
 

Anytime Soror...anytime!