recruitment numbers and reputations
 

OK all, here's a question. On a campus where hazing is rampant, recruitment numbers have literally gone to hell. Where at one time (6 years ago), the # of women going through recruitment was 150+, now only 50 women go through. The reputation is that you will be hazed if you decide to pledge, thus discouraging women to go through recruitment. There is one group on campus that is looked down upon because they don't haze. These folks have had trouble with formal recruitment because the people going through recruitment are only those who know they will be hazed, so they don't care if it happens. The non-hazing thing isn't a draw for them.

Now, in an effort to recruit women, a national goes in and does some recruiting, pushing the non-hazing aspect of the chapter, and gets 25 new women in 6 weeks to join the chapter. Isn't it evident to administrators that obviously the greek system isn't really meeting the needs of students as it is, and needs to reform? And then what do you do on this campus when the other organizations are crying foul because your group has 25 new women through COB, while they have 5 through formal recruitment? No NPC violations have taken place, to be clear.

I just need some opinion on this. PM me if you'd like :)

I not sure if I understand 100%. Are you saying that the non hazing group is having number issues and COB to the same total and the hazing groups don't like it?

If so, the hazing groups will eventually be in the same boat. Survival of the fittest I say. Soon, more educated PNMs will set them straight and the hazing groups will be COBing not the other way around.

Old habits die hard and if the school cannot see the issues, then they will when that school lands in the papers and possible students/parents are turned off.

I guess it boils down to how invovled is the school with the system? Many schools don't want to touch Greeks in fear of....well, I am not sure what, but it seems as if tons of school are turning a blind eye...and wait too long.

I couldn't imagine hazing being an advantage to membership?

As long as those 25 new members didn't put the chapter over campus total, I say more power to them and to heck with the whiners in the other chapters.

You didn't say whether or not the other chapters on campus are nationals, locals or regionals. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that they are locals or regionals - because I can't imagine any NPC group allowing this kind of dismal recruitment result to continue for any period of time. I could be wrong, but I hope not.

Feel free to PM me about this, but my thoughts are that the admininstration needs to take a long hard look at the other groups on campus and institute some major reforms. It sounds like the hazing is so ingrained, I don't know if anything short of complete chapter recolonization and constant supervision for a couple of years will make a difference.

The national group (I assume it's a chapter of DPhiE?) just needs to stay very visible on campus and keep a good attitude. The more women that see happy, non-hazed sisters, the better it will be for everyone, including that chapter's reputation.

Amen to Pnguintrax' response! As you know, we are dealing with the same problem here at the college where I teach. I'm sure that if a national came in and recruited and pushed its no-hazing stance, the locals would evaporate. I can not imagine any student actually wanting to be hazed.

If the national is at total and the locals keep whining with no evidence of improvement, suggest to them that since this one national is thriving beautifully and is at total, it's time to bring in another one!

OH yea, that would be the great thing to do, move in the nationals and "evaporate the locals." Local, regional, national or international all means the same to me, they are all greek organizations. Wouldn't it be better to try to help reform the locals and introduce a no-hazing stance instead of them being forced off campus because of incoming national orgs? That would just be one greek org pushing out another. AND we all know that just because the group is a national and they have this ever so uplifting "no-hazing" policy does not mean that they are always going to abide by anti-hazing policies :) We all read the news and we all read the risk management board, nationals are just as prone to hazing as a local or regional. The proof is in the charters being lost or revoked, the lawsuits coming out due to pledges being hurt and/or killed in the pledging process, the chapters being forced to close and on and on and on.


Think about that, because nothing in this world is concrete....Nothing is static...things can fall apart.

Damasa,
The administration on Carnation's campus is in complete denial over the situation. The locals are dying - noone wants to go thru recruitment because of the hazing. Last year they tried to 'force' rushees into the smallest group just to revitalize it (can you say 'to heck with mutual preference?') and all the girls dropped out immediately. The local groups (from what Carnation has said) have no alumnae support or advisors and pretty much run themselves and ignore the administration's weak attempts to get the hazing to stop.

Carnation's campus sitation is defintely not a situation of 'all locals are bad' and 'lets do away with all locals', but rather a realization that once things have degraded this far, it takes radical acts to resolve the problems. If that means getting rid of the locals and bringing in nationals, so be it. I'd rather lose a bad local (or national for that matter) than allow a group to continue hazing and perpetuating negative stereotypes. It's issues like the one Carnation and Shadowkat have described that bring down ALL GLOs.

Again, amen to Pnguintrax! The situation here is unbelievable--the hazing is not laughable, let's-make-a-memory fun. Most is illegal and/or dangerous. All it's going to take is the media getting hold of one incident or someone getting hurt and this college will be in deep doodoo. The administration is hoping that nothing will happen and keeps putting off bringing in nationals but they're going to have to. Yesterday, one of the locals just elected their group of "hazers" for next year.

If these locals were a positive force, I'd say more power to 'em but they continue to hurt and embarrass.

The campus is comprised of 5 national sororities and 4 local sororities. There used to be 5 local sororities, but one was thrown off of campus indefinitely due to many alcohol incidents.

Whether these chapters are national or local, the question remains that the campus as a whole needs to change, and evidently, the Greek Advisor is not wanting to work towards this process. It's truly a shame, but we will continue to work with this group. They had 16 women at the beginning of the semester, and now have nearly 40. I would say that we are finally selling what the women on campus want in greek life. It's just a shame that everyone has to question it.

So, basically you are saying that if the nationals are brought in and the locals are either kicked out or revamped that it will be a totally different scene? You can basically eliminate hazing as can the administration? I would LOVE to see that kind of guarantee on any campus, any campus. Who is to say that if the nationals came on, the campus would improve? There is a chance that it could stay the same or possibly get worse (I know, not very likely, but there is no guarantee on any of it).

Furthermore, if someone like yourself knows so much about the scene and the locals electing groups of "hazers" for the upcoming semesters, why don't more people? People that are in power enough to take legal action if necessary. I kind of take it as the entire campus knows, or at least that's what I gather. I would just think there would be more of a want to do something about it.

I then ask you carnation, have you done anything personally for the situation? Have you contacted administration and officials to help qwell the ongoing hazing and illegal activity of the locals? Have you taken a stance and informed local law enforcement of the the illegal ongoings? I would hope that you did/would/will, because honesly, if you have not, you have done just as much as the administration, which is nothing.

:)

It has been my impression that new chapters of any org, national or local, tend not to haze - anti-hazing, esp. at the national level, is so preached and pushed nowadays! So, I do feel comfortable saying that a new chapter of a national organization will not haze - the only national chapters I know that haze are long-established ones (not that all long-established chapter haze, mind you).

I'm just curious as to why this one other non-hazing group is having membership problems. So they don't haze, and that doesn't attract formal rushees. But why can't they be successful informally?

Damasa,

Please visit this thread if you'd like to see what carnation has been doing about the hazing issues taking place on her campus.

http://130.94.21.174/gcforums/showth...5&pagenumber=1


Hope this helps! :)

That's kind of my point. So the new chapters will come in and not haze because they are being formed, but what about the long run? It could turn into the same situation as the long standing locals that were once on campus :)
That is something that needs to be taken into consideration.

Like I also said earlier, there is certainly no guarantee on what can/will/does happen.

However, I do respect the idea that the nationals will come on and keep an anti-hazing stance for a good amount of time, or completely. I would just like to see some kind of situation like this that allows the "hazing locals" to revamp themselves when they see the examples set by the "non-hazing nationals."

In my experience on my campus, the nationals have the trouble with hazing and alcohol restrictions, and the locals are more reserved in that manner. It was different at one point on my campus but times have changed and we have lost so many nationals due to hazing in just the time I've been here. I've been here three years, in that time five nationals have gone under. Three for hazing violations, one for alcohol violations, one due to low numbers. Yet, that is specific to my campus, and they are trying to change that, and some of those nationals are going to be recolonizing soon.

Note: I've checked it out. Ok, she is trying to do something, but I still feel some kind of anti-local sentiment about the whole situation......

What is the justification for that? That you won't see a sign that they will get any better or that this local may be different? What would be different compared to a national forming on campus? Are there sure signs, guarantees that the national will be better?

Fuzzie--

The chapter lacked good marketing skills in terms of selling themselves. Unfortunately, in their defense and as someone who has seen recruitment, all of the other sororities tell the PNMs that they don't haze. In the past, that was believed, but word on the street is pretty strong now to not even listen to that.

And unfortunately, they ended up getting lumped into the general stereotype of the entire campus.

Hope that helps.

Damasa,

You said:

"In my experience on my campus, the nationals have the trouble with hazing and alcohol restrictions, and the locals are more reserved in that manner. "

Honestly, I think that's an exception rather than the norm.

I should have noted that it was an exception. As for norm, the majoirty of college campuses are run by nationals, agreed? Who do we hear more about in the news losing charters and being kicked off of campus due to hazing violations and or alcohol related incidents? To me, that is a norm. yet that may not be a norm to everyone :)


It's just hard for myself to justify that all nationals will always be better, or that a national will always be better considering we hear so much negativity about nationals and chapters going under for violations of this and violations of that.

***edited***
I'm not saying that we don't hear about locals getting kicked off campus for hazing or whatnot either, because we do, but in all honesty, it is more of an equal situation in the fact that we hear just as much about both being in trouble. So, I just it's just hard for me to justify a national to completely improve the situation on a campus like the one that carnation works on. Locals and nationals both have flaws and faults, and to think that one would be better than another can not be guaranteed.

Damasa,

One reason I don't see that the new local will be any better is because 2 of them were outside my window in drag awhile back with giant letters on their backs. Another is that one member is in one of my classes and he talks a a lot about what they do. They, like the rest, seem to think that hazing builds bonds.

If you aren't here with the situation, I don't think you can criticize what I'm saying about it. The nationals who have already expressed interest in the school have been apprised of the situation.

I've lived here in town for over 20 years and I know that the hazing is much worse than it was 10 years ago; it's like they're on a roll and can't stop themselves. As I mentioned, 2 of the fraternities and 1 sorority have died in the past few years--these groups were very strong a few years ago. You have to be kind of masochistic to put up with the kind of crap the so-called Greeks here have dealt out recently.

Another thing is that national sororities in the South tend not to haze. (And I hope they don't elsewhere but I haven't lived there to know!) Yes, I know someone will step in here and describe some case but around here, it's really considered ill-bred. I've been involved with the Southern Greek scene for many years and do not personally know a woman who has been hazed.

You don't hear often about a local getting caught because there is only that ONE chapter of the organization. Of course you'll hear about nationals, because they have 200 chapters.

The point of this post was to get your take on hazing's effect on recruitment, but unfortunately that's now lost.

I think if some chapters haze but most don't, and the hazing isn't extreme (I mean, line ups are bad, but people aren't dying at least), it probably doesn't affect rush too much. Freshmen don't know which chapters haze, and even if you as a prospective ask them, Chapter X won't say, "Oh, yes, we haze all the time." On my campus, one sorority hazed (they have since stopped), but I don't think the rushees generally knew about it. (And, funny, they were the one local chapter.)

But if "everybody" hazes, and even if 75% of the chapters haze that's perceived as everybody, that will dramatically affect rush. There are some people who come into college dying to be Greek and will rush no matter what, but I think a lot more people are iffy about it and are swayed by what they find once they get to campus. Those are the people you will lose.

Hazing is definitely the problem. Most people aren't masochists.

During rush...egads, sorry, *recruitment* :) last fall, there were LOTS of potential new members who asked if any sororities on campus hazed. They seemed very wary of being sucked into a group that would put them through hell, and rightly so. I would have dropped my sorority so fast heads would spin if any hazing had gone on while I was a new member (or at any time), and I'm proud to say that my group isn't the only one on campus who doesn't haze. None of us do. And believe me, if they did, we'd hear about it some way. It is so wrong for PNMs who really want to be good Greeks to have to put up with junk like the hazing that's evidently going on, and someone needs to tell them that is NOT the norm. I'm not naive enough to think that just because it doesn't happen on my campus it doesn't happen anywhere, so I totally believe what you all are saying about your situations. I just hope that something can be done before something reeeeally bad happens...and I think bringing in Nationals would be a good idea. No offence to locals--I'm not saying they should be totally abolished everywhere, but come on...this is ridiculous.

1. If non hazing is the way to go then why was the group down to 16 members in the first place?

Did you bother reading the post before yours? Most of the groups have a hazing problem so students assume that ALL groups have a hazing problem, and don't go Greek at all. This isn't a big campus - it's easier than you think to get down to 16 members.

2.. Did you ever consider the problem is oversaturation instead of hazing? Here are all these nationals trying to run the locals out of town and the number of glows doubles. As a result the number of members per drops in half. [/QUOTE]

The nationals are not "trying to run the locals out of town." A lot of schools expanded during the late 80's - early 90's and now that Greek life is less popular there may be more groups than the CURRENT population can support. But obviously no one (or almost no one) - national or local - wants to give up their group or merge. A local can stay at 6 members for 10 years if they want, if the school doesn't care. Nationals are expected to keep their numbers high (which I think has very little to do with sisterhood, but that is another thread).

damasa - you know I am in totally in favor of locals, but the prob at carnation's school is that many of the members drop out very soon after becoming active. They don't have any guidance, from older members or alumnae. They need someone to show them a constructive way of, hell, just keeping members, since the admin seems unwilling to do anything about it. They don't want to take responsibility so national groups would help that angle. Yes, maybe nationals will come in and everyone will still haze the crap out of each other and drop out, but you'll never know till you try. And right now they have nothing left to lose, basically.

I don't have a problem with locals. The problem is a lack of accountability for hazing particularly when a college or university abdicates its responsibility. When allegations of hazing are made against an NPC sorority, (inter)national headquarters will get involved. Some colleges can't or won't necessarily do the same for a local org. Of course, not all locals haze and some (inter)nationals do.

Back to the original question. I agree that a reputation for hazing can negatively impact all of the sororities and contribute to the diminishing quantity and quality of those going through recruitment. The campus is partially responsible. If they want to change this, the campus needs to set up very specific guidelines outlining hazing and the potential consequences of such actions up to and including closing the organization. On the other hand, there need to be a 'peer pressure' of sorts where the non hazing greeks address the problem and strongly persuade the hazers to stop. If the non hazers know that a group hazes, they need to stop silently accepting this and address it as a threat to the future of the entire greek community on that campus including their own org. For example, let them (hazers) know that it is unacceptable and that they won't be invited to socialize or participate in any activities until the hazing stops. I hope that helps. Good luck!

more local bashing?

Shadow. Could you support you opinion with some data?

The majority of the alcohol/hazing incidents that I read about involve NATIONALS.

?
 

what is COB?

Continuous Open Bidding - if a sorority is not at campus total, it can give out bids to girls at any point (with some exceptions - not to a freshman before formal rush, and frequently not during the summer).

shultzz--

I ask you to read an ENTIRE thread before replying. I answered this statement many posts ago.

Homey--

Nobody's trying to run anyone out of town. The campus had said back in 1994 that all greeks would be national by 2000. Today, in 2002, not one local has gone national. Does that sounds like running someone out of town? I don't think so.

I don't have anything against locals! Everyone thinks this is about bashing locals. We have equal number of locals and nationals, and I make no designation about those that haze and those that don't, with the exception of ONE group! Which would mean that 8 other sororities are hazing.

Thank you for those who posted something on the actual topic. 33girl, I don't buy into that thing that people don't want to go greek anymore. Yeah, interest may be smaller, but I think this group proved, at least on this campus, that there are plenty of people who would go greek if it was a quality experience.

Imus,

Fraternities pretty much give out bids whenever they like. For example, my brother started hanging out with the KA chapter at his school during the summer before his freshman year. He accepted a bid from them before Formal Rush even started in the Fall.

NPC sororities have much stricter rules regarding rush than fraternities do. Not only are sororities not allowed to offer bids to incoming freshmen before rush starts, but they are also not allowed to have contact with the potential rushees during the summer.

Hope this answers your question! :)

Homey--

Let me explain something to you. 50 women went through the formal recruitment process. That's 50 women for 9 sororities. Pretty shabby numbers...the reason the numbers are so low? Because the Greek Life system isn't offering what college students are looking for...a positive Greek experience. The group who doesn't haze got lumped into the system of hazing.

Through a bit of remarketing and word of mouth about the positive NM program, the group found all of these women. In 2 weeks, 20 more women wanted to be part of greek life, because they knew that they wouldn't be hazed. All of them were asked why they didn't go through formal recruitment, and their answers were all the same.."because I don't want to be hazed".

Hope this explains to you a bit of the situation.

So, let's say the group that doesn't haze takes a stand and bring sit to everyone's attention. Including national and local organizations on campus. If there is an HQ to deal with, call them to see who the officer is that is responsible for that chapter and talk to them directly. I am not saying let's say, by the way your chapter here hazes, but ask your PH to host Something of Value or email NPC, they have area directors like we do and they do make house calls.

The bad PR coming from the other groups will hurt the non hazing group by shear association, if nothing else.

It may be hard to begin alone, but you will have to do something or eventually you will have no PNMs go through recruitment and that will only hurt your group!

Good Luck.

There have been some interesting and valid posts on both sides of this topic. I have to say my own opinion boils down to the value the school-community-region-you name it-puts on the Greek system in general.

Like Carnation said-there will always be incidents of hazing, and at LSU some of the sororities do haze. It is a matter of degree, but it is also subject to the "desire" of the PNMs to gain membership. In the south, Greek Life is a big deal, so even though girls know XYZ cracks eggs over your head and pours mustard on you (NOT a DG practice, but yes this did occur in one of the houses considered to be strong), it is accepted. If one girl hears this and decides NOT to rush, there are 20 others standing in line who will. This doesn't reflect on the "quality" of the girl, it's more like "We don't haze" (wink-wink) and the girl KNOWS there will be some kind of incident that could be defined as hazing. Still, if a house is strong along with the entire system, potential hazing of "pledges" is overlooked by all. Recruitment is so huge at some schools, if hazing causes 50-100 girls to drop or not even sign up, it's no biggie.........to them.