Another reason to get rid of undergrads
 

You know, there won't be a frat if we don't act soon.

Ex-student at NSU sues frat, member over hazing
By LOU MISSELHORN, The Virginian-Pilot
© March 21, 2002

NORFOLK -- Michlen Robinson has painful memories of fraternity life at Norfolk State University: paddle swats on his backside, double-fisted punches to his chest and a two-week hospital stay for a punctured lung.

In a lawsuit filed this month in Circuit Court, Robinson says he was a hazing victim of Phi Beta Sigma on Sept. 21, 2000. He's suing the national fraternity group and a local chapter member for $500,000.

Criminal charges were never filed, and Robinson left school soon after the alleged assault.

But the incident that September night has left a lasting impression at the school.

The fraternity's national organization, Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity Inc., booted the local chapteroff campus that December amid reports of hazing.

Then, in November 2001, one of the victims who left NSU and transferred to Towson State University in Maryland filed a police report there. He told police that Sigma members from Norfolk drove to his new school to assault him again.

Since then, four Norfolk State students, including three Sigma members, have been expelled, school officials said.

The Maryland incident may have been payback after the fraternity was removed from campus, said Larry Curtis, NSU vice president for student affairs.

``I've never seen anything like this -- not in my five years here,'' Curtis said.

Robinson's legal complaint marks at least the fourth claim of hazing in three years at South Hampton Roads universities. In each case, someone was hospitalized or died.

Reliable national statistics on hazing incidents are unavailable.


State law classifies hazing as a misdemeanor and requires colleges to expel students who ``cause bodily injury.''

At Norfolk State, fraternities' members must vow in writing that they won't take part in hazing, Curtis said.

Robinson was being initiated into the Phi Beta Sigma fraternity in September 2000. Norfolk State does not allow fraternity houses on campus, though members sometimes live together off campus.

Fraternity members used their hands and wooden paddles to assault Robinson, according to court papers. The lawsuit names the defendants as the fraternity and Curtis Anderson, a former student and group member.

About a dozen pledges were lined up, assaulted and berated for several hours, said Robinson's attorney, John Watts.

Part of the abuse was dished out in ``thunderclaps'' -- two-fisted punches that Robinson believes punctured his lung, Watts said.

Watts agreed to be interviewed on behalf of Robinson. He said his client never told police or university officials of the incident because he was embarrassed.

Anderson was in charge of pledging and is the only individual named in the lawsuit because Robinson didn't know the others' names, Watts said. He no longer attends Norfolk State, according to school officials, and could not be reached for comment.

Although no police report was filed, the parent fraternity learned of the hazing allegations, and by December 2000, the chapter was suspended.

``The list of violations in this undergrad chapter are (too) numerous to mention,'' reads an e-mail, dated Dec. 4, 2000, to Scherod Barnes, 21st Eastern regional director for Phi Beta Sigma Fraternity Inc.

The Virginian-Pilot obtained a copy of the correspondence from the school through a Freedom of Information Act request.

The students confirmed they were ``paddled, kicked and punched,'' according to the e-mail. They also were denied study time and sleep and forced to run errands during all hours of the night.


__________________

:( Damn!!! So this is how you go about proving yourself to members of XYZ Fraternity or Sorority to let them know you are "oh so worthy" of their organization. This is ridiculous....kicked!!, punched!!, denied sleep!!! and forced to run errands at all hours of the night!!!. I feel so bad for this guy but he allowed for it to happen to him. They shouldn't have been hazing BUT he shouldn't have stood there and took such harsh ABUSE. If it was too bad for him, he should have dropped line. So now NSU has another lawsuit on their hands, a while back the ladies of DST were in trouble (on their campus) Some were expelled and not allowed to graduate. Oh well. I read on different BGLO's messageboards how "if it's God's will you'll become a XYZ" but is it God's will for you to get beat like a runaway slave just to brag that you are a XYZ. This is the type of stuff that frightens prospectives (like myself) from wanting to join. I understand it's not all sugar and spice to join b/c they do have to weed out the weak but when things like this are made known to the public it makes you wonder what really is going on and did the founders of these organizations intend for this to happen.

i'm not sure that putting a moratorium on undergrad initiations will be the end of hazing or the lawsuits. although i know more members of bglos, who were hazed as undergrads, i know more than a few that were hazed, while pursuing membership through grad chapters. imho, hazing is like trying to get members to stay active. there isn't a panacea for either.

I replyed to this in the Sigma board much more but i just want everyone to know there is alot not told in the paper article that would shed more light on the whole situation.

Let Us Be Leaders
 

My sister Stillwater,

First, let's be clear: hazing is a crime. We are supposed to be the intellectual, moral and civic avant-garde. We are supposed to utilize the past as knowledge ascertained from those before us. We are not supposed to follow "tradition" as an end, in and of itself. Please tell me that you have scientific, or heck - quasi-scientific, evidence that pleging so-called "hard" makes you a better member. No, we pledge hard because we want "respect" and "dap" or whatever the hell it is our value system has placed so much importance on.

It's time to seek a new existence. This is a post-modern world, and we need not be afraid of deconstructing our world and defining a new paradigm. I can assure you, that as long as the conditions of poverty exist, there will always be Sigma, whose cause will speed on.

It is time that we transform Sigma into a purely civic and professional leadership organization. Let us be leaders in a new world, instead of followers of a social construct that will lead to our extinction.

Blueknowledge

Just out of curiousity - I don't know if this was mentioned on another board or not, but BlueKnowledge, did you come through undergrad or grad chapter?

Check the original thread
 

Yes, I pledged so-called “hard.” And yes, I get “respect” and “dap” and all of these other imaginary things we give to each other.

The fact that all BGLOs have to employ an army of lawyers in order to keep us solvent says something about how far we’ve drifted from the founders’ original missions. The fact that we can rationalize violence/hazing says something about us. Today, we hang on to a socially constructed behavioral norm as if God wrote it in the Bible. How many nations have been destroyed and faded from the earth because its members worshipped its so-called interpretation of “tradition”?

Surely if we are going to pay so much value to the founders, then let us return to our original mission. Let us be the avant-garde for African Americans and all others across the globe. Surely, with our “traditions”, what unquestionable stake do we have to the claim of being civic leaders?

Blueknowledge

Re: Let Us Be Leaders
 

hazing is definitely a crime and i am not defending or condoning it, in any way, shape, form or fashion. i also didn't state in my original post that 'pledging so-called "hard" makes one a better member'. as such, i didn't even address the subject. instead, i was merely stating that even if initiation is banned on the undergrad level, hazing can and still continues on the grad level.

I ask of those graduate members on both sides of the dove do you regret pledging? Why or Why not?

In my opinion I think one can be pledged without their lives being put in danger. Since there are things both on the low and high end that are considered hazing, the line between hazing and pledging is blurry. A frat and I the other day had this very same discussion and after making the comment about all of us being one lawsuit away from bankruptcy he said that he thinks that one day although we may never do away with undergrad chapters there may come a day where grad chapter will be in total control of intake on both levels grad and undergrad. I kind of agree with this. What do folks think about above ground pledging being reinstated but with the intake being controlled by graduate chapters? The idea here is that older people may take more into account the consequences of their actions and think before endangering someone's life for the sake of "earning" their letters. Than there would be a mutually agreed upon (by both grad and undergrad) across the board pledge process that still embraces tradition, but void of the brutality and extreme hazing rituals. What are your thoughts on this?

I think you working with something here soror. At one point I would concede to having brothers brought in with a process ran by graduate chapter. My only issue is with chapter identity. There are no graduate brothers in my sponcoring chapter that were members of my undergraduate chapter. How would we instill chapter pride and history. Have you all seen some of the latino greeks and their "process"? We should look at them and the white people.

In terms of maintaining chapter identity, i wouldn't agree with merging the process of both grad and undergrad intake, just that grad controls both processes. You are right frat about alot of grad members not necessarily being from their undergrad chapters school, but perhaps if something like this was instituted than more undergrads would join their sponsoring grad chapter so that they can always have a voice as to how their undergrad chapters intake process goes. I saw in another forum that someone mentioned that there are grad chapters who pledge and pledge hard and they asked why is it that they never have issues with folks suing them....in my opinion if you are a grown man or woman and you go into a grad chapter and choose to be pledged than you definitely want this with your whole heart and won't be quick to sue or go running to the press...imagine how embarrassing it is for to see some 35 year old whimpering about getting paddled. Secondly, again since these are more experienced adults, they would most likely think through their actions before acting on them for the sake of making sure someone is coming in the "right" way.
Grad chapters may decide to pledge their interest but perhaps they aren't extremist about it. Nowhere is it written that you HAVE to put a mans face in front of heater, make him run in zero degree temperature, or beat him within an inch of his life. Folks can be pledged/hazed without endangering their lives. Remember even mental stuff is considered hazing. The spectrum of hazing is so broad that even if there was to be above ground pledging again, alot of the things people would be expected to go through would still be considered hazing. Just not necessarily life threatening. :p

So well put soror.

The processes of Latino greeks is VERY interesting. Please elaborate on what you are talking about.

Hold on to your hats, but Latino greeks namely the latinas of Sigma Lambda Upsilon pledge above ground. Damas as they call them, dress alike, walk in line, uphold what is called social probation, and take part in intense information sessions. By the attention being drawn to who is in fact on line they have to be wearyful of physically endangering the ladies. At various times they also greet other greek organizations, much as we do in probate shows. This is an enlightening experience and one that I feel we would benifit from.

Well you must also pay attention to the fact that these organizations are fairly new (1980s) and haven't had any lawsuits. I bet you once they get one good lawsuit they will be just like us with MIP. More importantly this process is sanctioned by their national body....

The Latino Greek above ground pledging
 

They don't have the history we do with hazing. If something ever happens or if campus administrations begin to get pressured, they too will have a process that is less reflective of an outward showing of submission but one that is more based on education.

My point was that it is sanctioned by their national body. Their national body had sense enough to organize their process instead of shun it. Individuals act as if pledging does not serve a purpose. If you think it doesn't that means one of two things.
1) You didn't pledge
2) The person who was in charge of your process didn't know what they were doing.

My whole point with this discussion is Yes hazing is wrong but is MIP the right solution.

Who said pledging didn't serve a purpose? We've had MIP since 1990 so if people wanted to bring back a organized pledge process they have had 12 years to rally and bring it back.

As usual we accuse folks who are against traditonal pledging as either not experiencing it or having folks who didn't know what they were doing.

The Membership Intake Process in its current evolution may not be to some members liking. I have no issues with a Membership Intake Process that focuses on education. No one needs to take part in the traditional pledge process in order to prove themselves worthy of membership. As with anything we can make changes and many organizations have over the years in order to balance the concerns of the membership with the needs of the organization (sometimes this is not easy to accomplish).

Too often we focus on MIP as the great boogey man without understanding that as long as WE decide that WE are not going to make any effort to FOLLOW the rules that we currently have, they will be no movement toward change. If we can't follow MIP without murder and mayhem, what on earth makes us think that we can restore traditional pledging without allowing hundreds of Archonian & Crescent starved non-financial hazers to reek havoc on our organizations, which I, as a financial member, will either have to pay for or stand by as a lawsuit victor and her momma an 'em end up with the keys to the International Headquarters?

If we don't like MIP, there is a way to change it...and it starts on the floor of a convention. Frankly, I like the MIP concept and do not support a return to anything resembling my pledge process 20 (21 on April 8) years ago.

Did my Delta Delta Chapter Sorors know what they were doing? Yep, and some of them are the sharpest Zetas in the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania have DD roots.

Learning this organization's rich history, applying that history to our contemporary lifestyle, participating in national programs, learning how to structure local programming to meet community needs, and preparing for leadership was a part of my pledge process.

MIP CAN TEACH YOU ALL OF THAT also if you do it correctly. And that is the problem...too many of us are not.

What is the difference in a club and a fraternity/sorority?

My opinions
 

May I? A club generally speaking lacks many components of the fraternity/sorority model. A fraternity (pronoun used hereafter for brevity to comment on both org types in general) has alumni (graduate) involvement where a club tends to exist for its members only when they are part of a particular organisation of set people (eg at a college). A fraternity has interconnected chapters across cities, states, even countries. A club might well be part of a "governing body" but there is little similarity between one club and another. A fraternity has noble ideals steeped in tradition - as important today as they were long ago; which members swear to uphold. Precious few clubs will go beyond focusing on the immediate aim of their club eg sporting prowess. A fraternity's members are bonded through an (inter)national collective of history, brotherhood, common aims and ideals.

I hazard a guess that legacypbs is in favour of pledging that some might describe as hazing? There have been articles written on it e.g. Charles Smoot who was pledged "hard" and is a member of a fraternity (APA). I have never gone through similar things but telling me I wouldn't possibly understand on the basis of that just doesn't wash.

It is perfectly possible to have a group without "hard pledging"; without just asking if they can pay the $, sign their name and that's it to be in. Members should not be defined by red marks on their posterior, bags under their eyes but by their heart and commitment to the organisations aims, service and brotherhood. Both groups which "pledge hard" and groups which have a defined education process without (for example) paddling might have 'ghost' members later but the latter group won't threaten its future by its actions.

I know most of the posts on this thread are a little old, but the thread is quite interesting, and I wanted to add my perspective as a member of a Latina sorority.

I thought the comment made by lecacypbs about Latino Greeks was very interesting: "Hold on to your hats, but Latino greeks namely the latinas of Sigma Lambda Upsilon pledge above ground. Damas as they call them, dress alike, walk in line, uphold what is called social probation, and take part in intense information sessions. By the attention being drawn to who is in fact on line they have to be wearyful of physically endangering the ladies. At various times they also greet other greek organizations, much as we do in probate shows. This is an enlightening experience and one that I feel we would benifit from.” What legacypbs said about LGLOs is true (and I am speaking in GENERAL about LGLOs here, NOT about my specific sorority): many LGLOs pledge above ground for all or part of their process. Each LGLO has their own process and practices, but some of the pledging characteristics/activities of some LGLOs include: uniforms, walking on line (locked up with LBs/LSs), greeting big brothers/big sisters, serious/stern look on the face, always walking/running fast and with a purpose, cutting corners, eating in unison, not walking on grass, social probation, chanting, probates, etc. Each LGLO has their own practices, and there is a large variety of pledging practices among LGLOs, but most have some part of their pledging process above ground. Beneath the surface of above ground pledging, many LGLOs are serious about educating during the pledge process, and pledges learn about themselves, their LBs/LSs, their organization, and the Latino culture. The advantage that a lot of LGLOs (at least the smart and organized ones) have is that their process is sanctioned by nationals and STRICTLY controlled, and safety of the pledges is always carefully maintained. This would probably be next to impossible for BGLOs considering the size of your orgs, but for LGLOs, most of which are 13-30 years old, our orgs are small enough to maintain careful control of the membership process. Having the process closely watched and controlled by nationals allows the best of both worlds: the benefits of working hard and earning your letters, without the dangers of crazy letter-wearers pledging members underground and endangering the organization.

It’s true that our orgs are young, and most have not been hit with lawsuits yet. Whether or not we get hit with lawsuits, above ground pledging may not last long (considering the problems that lawsuits cause for ALL greeks, not just the org dealing with it). I hope that BGLOs and all other greeks are able to come up with a membership process that first and foremost does not endanger potential members, but at the same time satisfies current members and allows potential and new members the benefits of working hard and the pride of earning letters rather than signing on the dotted line.

You all are having a lovely discussion here...just wanted to put my 6 cents in!

Giggy Z you are soo right! The place to change the current state of BGLO's is on the floor of a convention, BUT...most of the people complaining about it...are not FINANCIAL or ACTIVE! And if they are at a national convention...they are there hanging out..not about the business of the fraternity or sorority!!!

I think we are all in a catch 22. I am of the MIP era...and I will say that the only process I will EVER envy is the process above ground PRE 1990...cuz to many old heads...nobody has been "PLEDGED" since 1990! I don't think MIP offers quite enough...it turns the whole "process" into too much of a business... But at the same time...I understand why it is the way it is....those that came before us made it this way....So who is really to blame? WHile I cherish my process... I would love to see an above ground process come back with modifications...

An Aside:
I wish those in greekdom that shed so many blood and tears....and claimed their process to be "better" or "superior" to MIP would come back and take an ACTIVE part in their organizations and stop simply complaining!!

I'm not in a GLO but while I read the forum and listen to debates like this, I am very concerned. Too bad everyone can't be brought in the same way that it was done in the beginning years (however that might have been). Founders of your GLOs must have had a concrete formula designed to choose the best candidates for membership because all of you have dynamic histories. I wish everyone was brought in the same way from beginning to end.

Well, when I was an undergrad, the organization I belong to was suspended therefore I could not join. I had to join Grad through the MIP process, and I did not like it at all!

I wish I had the opportunity to go "on line" officially. Now I have to do it on the down low tip.

Now I am not saying that I want to be hazed, because hazing and pledging are TWO DIFFENT THINGS!

I just want to have the experience of pledging.

When will people realize that its not HOW you came in but what you DO once you get in??? I know people who were online for MONTHS and can't write a proper officer report or don't know parlimentary procedure. But they are the first ones to say they have no pen pals or paper cuts. BOO! The madness has got to stop. If all people want to do is "pledge" rather than handle business then I would rather they seek membership elsewhere.:rolleyes:

TheEpitome1920,
People will never realize this as long as "members" continue to look down upon and degrade those that come in a different
way:(

another reason to get rid of undergrads
 

Hey I totally understand where luv 4 blu and white is coming from. I too attended a school where Zeta's were not active and I contacted my schools near me but did not get a good response... i was told by one that because i was not a student at their school, i could not be apart of their chapter and i had to go through the grad chapter. Dont get me wrong, i have met some wonderful women in the graduate chapter but i still feel like a lost soul... i wish i had a line name and number but because of all the hazing practices those before me did, i could not experience the sisterhood of being online!! Sorors and Frat should not hate us because of the way we came into the organization but give us praise for the things we are doing while in the organization!!


Zeta Phi Beta Sorority
Alpha Psi Zeta Chapter~ Host of 84th Boule:D

Evil Intentions with a Good Heart

Sigh!
 

You want the experience of pledging? Stay financial and active in your org. Attend and participate in chapter meetings. Attend the business sessions at your state, regional and national conferences. Run for an office. Chair a committee. I GUARANTEE that if you do these things over a lifetime of membership in and service with your org that YOU WILL UNDERSTAND THE TRUE MEANING OF PLEDGING. (Can I get an amen from someone who knows what I am talkin' 'bout?)

Remember the REAL WORK begins after the initiation process.

Maybe I am getting old and becoming the thing that some youngin's seem to fear--a old head, middle aged, office holding, dues paying, conference attending, rule obeying member. Be careful--YOU TOO may become one of us some day provided the orgs are not sued out of existence.

A-----Men, A------men, A-------men, Amen, Amen.

Giggy Z is that enough?

I agree. stay active and financial long enough, have an elected, appointed position and you will truly, be "pledged".

personally speaking i'd much rather have an active soror paying her dues, implementing required programs than someone who strolls and/or step because that is all that was taught them.

Nothing worse than seeing a strolling soror who can't give you any history or information about the organization.

shaking my head ....

paper or pledge, give me paper ...

Re: Sigh!
 

AMEN!!! AMEN!!! Preach on!!! They don't know!! They don't KNOW!!

Re: Sigh!
 

AMEN!!!!
Everything you mentioned, I am doing. I know my history. I am very active. I was just elected as the anti-gramm. on our executive board (local level, I plan to run at a higher level later on), have attended the State meeting (which was very interesting), go to ALL the community service projects and chapter meetings, and plan to stay financial... GOD willing. (Keep in mind I am a Neo, so some of the meetings I have missed, but you can rest assured that I will be there next time around.)

Believe me I know where you are coming from, because it is a lot of work, and I am enjoying every second of it, but I still feel like I have missed something. I know in my heart, that is doesn't matter how you come it, but what you do once you are in, and I am doing all that I can do, but I just want the experience of being on-line, that is just the kind of person I am. I like to experience new things, things that I know will challenge me.

Maybe you are right, maybe I will get over it, but for right now, I just can't shake that feeling. I will however, continue to give my all to Zeta, and be there whenever She calls. It is nice to know that there are Soror's and Frat out there, that have the views that you do.

Thanks