Rebelious pledges
 

As of all of you know that spring semester is near to the end. Well here is the problem. Many of our pledges have rebelious attitudes, they are mostly sophmores and juniors. Most of them have very little respect for the younger brothers like they don't have to listen to them. They have an attitude like they know that pledging lasts for 8 weeks or so and they know that they cannot be held farther then the end of school. These pledges have failed almost every test and hardly show up to any fraternity events. We've sat them down numerous times and told them that many brothers are upset with them. Has this ever happend to any of you? Any suggestion of how we can correct this problem?

Here's my two cents, although it may sound harsh.

Do not baby them!!!!! If you have pledges who are not getting the work done now, and you decide to baby them or allow it because you want or need pledges, I promise you will regret it in the future. If they have not been initiated, there is no rule that says they must be. If they aren't doing the job, they don't deserve to be initiated. If they have been initiated, use whatever methods that you have to make sure they know they will be kicked out if there are no changes.

Again, this may sound harsh, but I know from experience. There really isn't much you can do to get them motivated other than to make it clear that your organization has no room for people who can't do what's expected of them. Do not be pushovers about it, and DO NOT decide to take them or bend the rules out of any feelings of guilt. Your organization as a whole is too important.

Just think of the greater good, not just this one class. If you're strict, they might just clean up their acts, too. Maybe.

Well, how strict can they be? I am asking this in all sincerity...What can you do with a new member class that does not fulfill their requirements? How can you let them go without it coming back to haunt you as "hazing"???

hey all, I agree with Pbear don't baby them ! Let them know the deal, and that it takes commitment and all that jazz. We have had the problem once or twice, and when and sometimes it does come down to it, they are dropped from our system, no hard feelings but we let them know, that we use our time and we expect the same. I hope things get better for you guys.
One and Always Much Love
DGPhoney~

The answer is simple. Find the worst out of all of them, the one that you probally know will not make a good brother (sounds like you have many to choose from) and get rid of them. The Black Ball will show that you are serious and that you do not take your fraternity lightly. Hopefully they will get the idea and straighten their act up. If not wipe out the whole class. There is no place for apathy in the greek community.

I know this is rather harsh, but it is important. If they don't participate then the classes after them won't participate and your chapter will crash. It really ticks me off when people try all semester to get into a fraternity and then they act like they don't care once they are in.

Do what is best for your chapter and the greek community. We don't need more bad images of greeks around at any school.

I hope this helps,

Clint

You've tried being nice...time to drag out the big guns.

Haul 'em up in front of judicial if need be. Tell them that they knew going into their pledgeship that certain responsibilities were expected of them and they haven't met those responsibilities. Give them 1 or 2 weeks to shape up their act, pass their tests and attend all required activities in the next 2 weeks. Assign an older brother to work with this select group and include exercises in brotherly respect and teamwork in their classes.

If they don't shape up - pull their pins and wish them well. I wouldn't cry much more over it - had these boys (using the term on purpose) really felt the brotherhood and commitment needed to contribute to your chapter, they would have done so already. Dead weight brings down the entire chapter - not just the pledge class.

Next year, you'll know a little more when approaching potential members and be better equipped to explain the commitment needed and why the entire Fraternity benefits from it.

Getting rid of a member who hasn't met the minimum requirements set in order to be initiated is not hazing --just like severing an initiate's membership for repeatedly not making grades or not paying dues is not hazing. The two are not related in the least little bit. (Sorry if it sounds like I'm yelling, sigmagrrl. No offense intended. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gifI'm just trying to get the point across.)

Basically what I'm saying is this: Every organization has set requirements that the members must abide by in order to be considered in "good standing" and, thus, able to participate in chapter events. Expecting them to live up to those requirements is not a hazing issue. It's like kicking a college player off the team for not showing up to practice. Or not allowing a college student to pass a course because they didn't show up for class on a regular basis.

You don't want someone in your chapter who obviously doesn't care if they are there or not. Weeding out those people is not only a Greek organization's right, it's also their responsibility to insure that the chapter remains vital.

I have to agree with pbear19. If these guys don't have respect for the fraternity by now, then it's crazy to think that they'll gain respect once they get initiated. Which means they'll probably do nothing but cause potential problems down the road. It would be different if they were studying their pledge books and making an actual attempt to learn about the fraternity, and attending your chapter's organized events. But it doesn't seem like they are trying at all in this case. And there is no reason in the world why they should be initiated at this point. Get rid of them now.

It does sound harsh, but having an apathetic bunch of guys as your brothers is the only other alternative. Kick them out now or deal with their poor attitudes later. It's up to you. Good luck! http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif

**dzrose93 getting off the soapbox**

I absolutely agree with pbear and others. If you let this pledge class run wild it will come back to haunt you in the end.

If they haven't passed their tests, etc. -- DON'T INITIATE THEM!!

Concentrate on Fall rush and try to make up the numbers you may lose.

It isn't harsh, it's preservation of the Chapter. If these guys won't participate in their pledge (OK, prospective member or whatever) period, there's no way they will take their responsibilities as actives seriously.

Get rid of them before you build a bigger ongoing problem.

DeltAlum

PS I assume you can document the problems including failing test scores, missed meetings etc. That's important.

Good advice Clint...they're gone, remove all the bad apples. This isn't 10 strikes and your out, take their pledge pins & manuals and tell them they are no longer pledges in your fraternity.

I totally agree with Clint, pbear and the others - kick the worst ones out, and if that doesn't help, all of the troublemakers. I have seen one of my chapters almost come apart over a similar situation!

Plus, it will have the positive effect that it strengthens the bond between the rest of you guys and will give you the reputation of being consequent about your ideals on campus, which shouldn't be bad at all!
All the best, Matt

Well first of all I want to thank all of you guys for your help. So far we've got rid of their biggest trouble maker. As of all of you know the quote "A chain is only as strong as its weakest link" Well we've black balled one of their pledge brother and we thought that would deliever the message. But is their any other alternative than throwing them out? I know I may seem as a pushover I just want to make sure I'm exercising all of my options b4 I throw anyone out

If they don't care about coming to the meetings and respecting their brothers don't you think they would turn on your fratr once you kick them out? What if they are the type to try and put out secrets once they don't get their way? Just something to think about.

Well im glad to hear you rolled the main trouble maker out of the group. But you still have a problem even if they behave...that is that they don't know anything about your fraternity or what it means. They wouldn't appreciate initiation when they get there. I don't know if you heard of the term bull pledge but basically down here in FL we use it if a pledge doesn't make grades or is ready to be initiated..we hold them over to the following semester's pledge class. We are on a 8 week pledge program here by university rules(its retarted but not much you can do...last year we went from max 16 week pledgeship to a max of 8). Anyways, we don't make them wear their pin or carry their pledge manuel but they have to go through pledgeship all over again by going to pledge class etc. Thats one loop-hole your chapter should look at for these guys. Hope this helps

Take the troublemaker to standards/judicial board and have a hearing. Tell him he and his pledge brothers that they have X amount of time to fulfill their requirements. If they don't, you will not hesitate to black ball those who don't and not initiate them. At least then you give them the idea that you're serious, without losing them until absolutely necessary.

I have to join the choir on this one. Back in Fall ’96 our pledge dad thought new member education was watching porn at his apartment. Needless to say they didn’t learn jack, and didn’t take ANYTHING seriously, then or after. We had 19 pledges that semester and the next, only 7 made grades, and by 1 year out, only 3 were even enrolled in the university. But did we learn our lesson? No. The next fall (’97) we did better, but never let the new members know who was in charge, and the way the game was to be played. They ran completely all over us. It was so bad, that to this day, they are considered the worst pledges we ever had, but that was our fault for letting them get away with it. I even had one of the pledges girlfriends tell me after initiation that Steve (her bfriend) had told her he wished we’d taken a harder line with them. They were crappy brothers. Not just cocky, but insolent as well. After that we totally cracked the whip. We went all out. And it has totally worked - accountability and the like. Our pledging/initiating ratio is now at NIC & university recommended levels, our new member grades have dramatically improved, and our new members can taste the reality of the situation in the air, “We don’t need you that bad.” ITS NOT WORTH THE TROUBLE.

Another tip I got from another chapter on campus is a “dedication” interview conducted halfway through the semester. We have never used it, but its nice to have there if need be. From the way it was explained to me is you have the brothers sit in the upper back of one of the larger auditorium lecture halls, where the lights are dimmed, and bring the pledges in one at a time and conduct an interview with them. The set up is meant to be somewhat intimidating to underscore the seriousness of the occasion. Different brothers then ask them questions like, ‘what have you done for the org, what would you do differently, what would you change, what have you learned, yada yada yada.” It seems to work pretty well for the org that does it. They are one of the stronger houses on campus.

Just my 2 bits and change

Yes we've done that before however this is spring rush. Now would you hold them off over the summer? This is the problem we are facing because alot of the brothers want them to pledge again.

Yes I'm aware of that function as well. Thats another problem, we did that as well and the pledges apparently lied to us on the spot. We didn't realize this until 2 weeks later. "Cracking the whip" What does this exactly mean? Yell at them? Make them do physical activities?

That's pretty cool - we actually have something similar. Pledging in my fraternity usually lasts two semesters. Exceptions are made when someone enters the fraternity at a pretty advanced state in his studies (reduction to one semester) or if he failes the initiation exam or otherwise does not seem ready for initiation. Then he has to be pledge for a 3rd semester. It works pretty well.

sigmagrrl, I know exactly what you mean. I've seen more than one pledge class w/ the "you can't make me do anything, it's hazing" attitude. Anyway, not going there, time to help pikeks109. http://www.greekchat.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif

Do you have a national pledge test on basic knowledge, et al? If they are as clueless as you say, they will flunk. They won't be able to be initiated due to NATIONAL STANDARDS and there won't be thing one the chapter can do about it.

Do brothers have to go to a certain %age of events to be in good standing? That applies to the pledges, too. If you don't have a system like this in place it might be time to get one.

Rather than the "shape up" lecture try reverse psychology. Ask if there's anything they feel they aren't getting from the brotherhood - ask if they are sorry they accepted their bids, since that's the impression they are giving. Tell them if they are that unhappy, they can leave.

But if you do ALL THAT and they still are a-holes, don't hesitate to give them the boot. You don't need that kind of cancer on the brotherhood for the sake of numbers.

In my opinion pledges like this are the kinda of pledges that end up bringing a whole chapter down. I would suggest bringing in an alumni.. bring in those guys who have WORKED and EARNED the letters they wear. Many of the older greeks that came before us went through many hazing antics, and not really bad things.. but things that taught them RESPECT.. and PRIDE for the letters they had to earn. Stress to them that if they can't see how important and how strong the bond is because they are on the outside looking in.. and that if they want to be a part of the brotherhood explain to them that they wont have that chance if they dont PROVE that they want it.. scare them a little talk about people getting cut and things like that.. they need to learn that even if the other brothers may be biologically younger... yet they have earned the letters they wear and the RESPECT of every brother..

another thing.. im not sure how it is elsewhere, but our pledges on campus wear "iron-on" letters.. if this is the same...let them know... the reason they wear iron ons and not stiched on's is because at anytime an iron on can be peeled off.. yet stich on's are sewn on and permenant..


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Love, Honor, Truth

After reading the posts on this subject I would like to reiterate a few things. Against the opinions of everyone else, I don't see these guys shaping up...You've said they've already been warned and that they failed multiple tests - then get rid of them. I wouldn't hesitate for a second to remove the ones that aren't giving the effort. Maybe i'm a little harsher on pledges because I founded our organization, but if anyone wants to be my brother they better prove it. I'll take 1 die hard pledge over 10 mediocre pledges anyday...those are the ones that will truly be with the chapter for a long time.
Hazing has nothing to do with it, if these pledges think they can't be kicked out, they're dead wrong.

Show up at their house tell them straight up what's happening, and get their pledge manuals and pins.



[This message has been edited by Lil_G (edited April 10, 2001).]

No, not at all. Its simply a euphamism for getting them to understand that if they dont correct their errant behaviors, they will be cut. Often they are never really told the seroiusness of the situation. i.e., straighten up and fly right. Or as my red neck mother would say, "lower the boom," on them. Cut them, hold them over we have held a pledge over for three semesters before. He finally got the clue. I imagine your initiation vote percentage is significantly higher than your pledging vote percentage. For example, in my org, it takes 65% to pledge, but 82% to get initiated. If you do not have a higher standard, I'd suggest looking at your chapters bylaws. It would make a lot of this argument moot. If a few of you recognize these "boys" (to use penguintrax venacular) are slacking, they wouldnt make the higher initiation vote percentage anyway.

I completely agree w/ blackball. The Pikes at my school do it, then give the guy a chance to shape up before completely throwing him out.

Holding them till fall may be the best thing about this. You know that any pledges that come back will be dedicated! If they bail over the summer, they would've even if they were initiated.

Cracking down on them doesn't mean physical activities or yelling at them. What do you do to an active that slacks off? Treat the pledge the same way. If that means a standards or judicial board, drag their butts in there. If it means fine them because their skipping meetings, do it.

You want them to be brothers. So treat them like they already are!

Make sure their involved w/ the chapter too. If the chapter plays sports, put pledges on the team. If you have a philanthropy coming up, make sure they pull their weight!

The fact that they are failing your organizations test is a strong statement as to what kind of people they are. If you cannot dedicate yourself to the history and knowledge of my organization then you should not be pledging. If that means kicking out a few or even all teh pledges than so be it. Also the fact that they show up to little or no fraternity events IMHO means show them the door.

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Many are called, many are chosen, but only a few are PHROZEN!

I am the New Member Educator for our chapter in Chi omega. We had a similar problem last semester (I wasn't the Educator then) but this semester I decided it will not be like that with our New Members. I am very open and friendly with our girls but am also firm with them. I expect nothing less from them and they strive to give me their best. You have to be FIRM with them from the very get go. By the end of pledgeship it might be a little too late to turn these guys around. Let them know that their behavior reflects on the fraternity and the reasons for joining a fraternal organization are for friendship, developing leadership skills, and many many other reasons. I always stress that to our girls and they are constantly striving to live up to our purposes and being what Chi Omegas strive to be. People need to be taught from early on that they must pull their slack in their organization. Pledges must be taught that or they are just going to be "dead weight."

Pikeks,

If I am reading correctly, you started off saying that the brothers allowed them to slack off most of the pledge period. Is this correct? If so, have the brothers stand up and be a man. Admit that you, the brothers, screwed up and let the pledge period go to shit. Then explain to the pledges that this is unacceptable to the Fraternity as a hole. The end result being that there will be NO initiation this semester. Terminate the pledge period and issue the ones that have any potential bids for the Fall. After you have done this you MUST address the root of the problem. Work on brotherhood in the chapter and the fact that no single brother is more important that the chapter. If you fail to trim the fat, you will get lazy and sloppy. If you allow it to continue it increase exponentially.

I am in agreement. From your post its sounds as if the brothers may have been a little too easy on them. Now that it is time for them to see your ritual you want them to straighten up, and I dont blame you. Do you think they are too far gone to be corrected? If so then get rid of them. Yeah I understand that the semester is almost over but oh well, nothing you can do now. This is a problem I hope we never have. It wouldnt have lasted thru the second week. Just remember next semester that pledging is militant in organization for many reason, more especially in preperation of your pledges seeing the ritual that yall hold so dear. Do not run a man thru that is unworthy.

Good Luck

[This message has been edited by BillyMac (edited April 11, 2001).]

After reading some other posts, mainly Lil_G, I think I agree that giving them the boot might be the best thing. The worst pledges are almost always the worst brothers/sisters. They will be dead weight, doing nothing and getting all the benefits of the fraternity. You gotta set the example now, before the reputation for the fraternity as a whole suffers. People talk, especially pledges who don't care!

I'll add to that a quote Iheard at our national meeting, "If you trim the fat from the piece of meat, it might be smaller in the end, but it will be a lot stronger."

Ya hold them over the summer, making them be apledge all summer will suck for them. Every spring we hold our spring pledge classes over the entire summer anyways. We wait till their grades are in first and then have final vote the first week back to school for fall term, and after rush week they start their I-week. Nothing wrong with holding them over all summer.

Ok from what I've collected most of you agree to give them the boot. I agree entirely and I want to thank all of you for the excellent advise you have given me. All of the brothers has been strict and firm with them however they have all been hesistant of throwing them out. Most of us has agreed to initiate them after the summer.

Letting them in because they might publish secrets if you throw them out is like giving in to blackmail!!! No GLO should feel pressured into initiating ANYONE. It is an honor and a privilege to be an initiated member of an organization --- any organization, Greek or otherwise. It's not a God-given right - and membership should certainly not be handed out just because of "what if" questions.

What secrets would these kids know anyway? If you get rid of them before initiation, they don't have a whole lot of knowledge anyway (especially if they are as slack about learning their pledge manuals as they are about attending functions) What they know as pledges would scarcely cover a page and certainly wouldn't make for very interesting reading.

**once again, dzrose93 is stepping off of the proverbial soapbox**

Our chapter has a worse problem. We have rebellious officers! Yea, a typical fraternity has a pres, vp, secretary, treasurer, social chair, historian, etc. They sometimes step outside their boundaries. We have a great mix of weak follower types and strong leader types. Someone can make a decision, another person overthroughs it, and then the rest of the chapter follows. For example, a vice president makes a decision, then the treasurer alters that decision, who has absoulutely no other authority than being a treasurer. I have been the activities officer since last December and I have not planned one activity by myself, without having someone else interfering. Maybe I should keep my plans to myself!

While we ahve not had that problem, we have the problem of some new officers who think they have the power and lord it over all others. Granted, they are young we who put them in can also take them out!

It is best to get the problem taken care of as soon as jpossible or you may no longer be a viable organization!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

While we ahve not had that problem, we have the problem of some new officers who think they have the power and lord it over all others. Granted, they are young we who put them in can also take them out!

It is best to get the problem taken care of as soon as jpossible or you may no longer be a viable organization!

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Tom Earp LX Z#1
Pittsburg State U. (Kansas)

I have to agree with the idea of holding them over the summer. Here we have 2 pledge classes a year and the second one ends up going over the summer. They are not pledges during this time, its not technically a part of the pledge period, its like a break. But I think the biggest thing in this is its a time where they can think about what they are doing. This is both a good thing and a bad thing, you might lose some people but at least in the end you know that they are dedicated and the kind of people you might want in your org. Sorry if anyone already said this about the summer thing, thats just my two cents, talk to yall later.

Hey. From a pledge's point of view (I'm still pledging my fraternity) I think you should blackball one or more of them. You don't want apathetic pledges to become brothers who will be poison in chapter (if they even bother to show up to chapter meetings).

We have the ability to pledgeball one of our pledge bros if they don't pull their weight (i.e. miss a meeting or two for b.s. reasons, not showing up for fundraisers or community service events, not following all the rules, not coming out enough, failing pledge exams, losing pledge manual, not getting to know us, or not showing respect for the brothers).

A pledgeball isn't likely to happen, at least in my opinion, when they're all a bunch of slackers. Now I'm not a brother, but I know that the most super pledge doesn't make a great brother, but usually a crappy pledge makes a crappy brother. Cut bait and hope for a good fall rush (usually fall rush is better than spring anyway).

It's hard for me to believe though that an entire pledge class is a bunch of slackers. To me it seems like they don't respect the brothers when they fail pledge exams and don't do anything. How is that going to reflect on the chapter and general fraternity if and when they get initiated?

Ultimately I guess they don't realize the honor they've been given and lack the respect for the organization. Getting initiated is NOT inevitable, it is NOT a right, but an honor and a privilege. Help them understand that by making examples out of them, if they are that bad I'm sure it won't be too hard getting enough support to blackball more than one pledge.

Getting off the soapbox, that's just my $.02 from a pledge's perspective. I know I wouldn't want dead weight as pledge brothers.

Bro2B,

I LOVE YOUR ATTITUDE !!!!!!!!!!!!! Too bad your not one of our pledges! On another note, I think I like the pledge ball idea. Can you post more on how it works and how it has in the past, if you know.

N2 - sorry it's been so long getting back to you about how the pledgeball works. It's been a busy summer for me.

The way it works here is that we, the pledges have a good idea who is doing what and who isn't. The good thing about a pledgeball is it holds us accountable to each other, in addition to the brothers.

So if we see a fellow pledge brother slacking, we can bring him up for pledgeball just by mentioning it to each other. It's informal at first like "What do you think about pledgeballing John? He hasn't done anything and he's making us look bad as a pledge class."

Usually the pledge class president mentions it to the pledge educator before the next pledge meeting-i.e. we're thinking about bringing John up for pledgeball.

The pledge educator brings it up in chapter-the pledges are thinking about balling John. Of course I don't know what goes on after that. Brothers might argue for him, or not. Either way, the pledge educator tells the pledge class president to go ahead, or not to.

If it's a go, at the very next pledge meeting, the pledge class president calls for a vote from his fellow pledge brothers on whether to pledgeball John. Ideally, John should be present.

If anyone wants to argue for John, they can. Usually though no one will, everyone pretty much has a good idea of why they'd pledgeball John. After John states his case, or doesn't, the pledge class prez calls for a vote.

It's not a secret vote. You make a round of everyone going around, saying why they are voting for or against pledgeballing John. John doesn't have a vote. Makes sense, right?

You can make your own rules here. Where I'm at, a pledgeball has to be unanimous. Every pledge present at the pledge meeting has to vote to pledgeball John for it to count. You might say 90% of the pledges present have to vote againt him for it to count. The only problem is it's a vote of who is present-so if for some reason John's best friend he's pledging with has to miss the meeting for whatever reason, he might get pledgeballed because his friend wasn't there to defend him and break the unanimous vote against John. At the chapter I am pledging at, I've heard about a guy quite a few pledge classes back who was basically a b.s. pledgeball. It was the first meeting of the fall (it was a spring pledge class like mine) and because school hadn't started yet, everyone wasn't back in town but half of the pledge class. The half that was there was the half that wanted to pledgeball this guy, and they did. A lot of the brothers are still bitter over it.

Anyway, there you have it. The good thing about a pledgeball not going through is hopefully it has a "scared straight" effect on John and he gets his act together and starts contributing as a member of the pledge class and doing the same work the rest of the class is doing.

And of course if John is pledgeballed, the pledge educator asks him to leave the meeting. The pledge educator lets the brothers know about the pledgeball. After that, usually the President or Vice President of the chapter goes to John's dorm room, apartment, wherever and takes John's pin and pledge manual and tells him he is no longer affiliated with the fraternity.

That's it.

Even if you end up with only 2 left, you always have to weed out the guys you dont think will be worthy brothers, cause 2 that do things correctly are better than 30 that dont..........Am I wrong?